eh, melee are better than ranged in a lot of ways for m+; with the exception of sanguine and I guess skittish there's not a ton of reason to avoid them, and melee usually have more stuns/interrupts than ranged (also generally speaking they cleave better, although mages and hunters are exceptions to that on the ranged side.)
That's the biggest reason why I prefer melee. The stuns. Especially the long duration stuns that Monks have. More than anything else, the biggest danger in high level keystones is spontaneous tank death, and the best way to avoid that is to be able to stun everything you are fighting when things get hectic.
Mages and Hunters have no reliable way to stun a pack of mobs, and so if you take a group full of them, you are asking a lot of your tank and healer in many specific dangerous spots throughout all the dungeons.
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0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Making one of the monks a mist weaver and having the sham go elemental would be a pretty good comp though. You'd have astounding trash dps, which is where most of the time saving comes from
I'd rather make the Shaman a mistweaver and just run with 4 monks.
In fact, brewmasters are incredible in Keystone dungeons, so just run with 5 monks and call it good
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
yeah that is not how math works. Also the best performing spec on average doesn't mean the average player performs best at it.
While your whole WW monk group works because that is a fairly easy spec to play at average, it does not work for them all. If you want to claim you can't judge the skill of a Pug, you have no idea what you will get no matter what class. Just because one class might do 5% more dps on average, you then only have a 5% chance of them actually doing more than some other class that would have been at average.
Its really, really silly logic that would only apply to like, maybe you and 1-2 other people in this thread. In other words, almost no one.
yeah that is not how math works. Also the best performing spec on average doesn't mean the average player performs best at it.
While your whole WW monk group works because that is a fairly easy spec to play at average, it does not work for them all. If you want to claim you can't judge the skill of a Pug, you have no idea what you will get no matter what class. Just because one class might do 5% more dps on average, you then only have a 5% chance of them actually doing more than some other class that would have been at average.
Its really, really silly logic that would only apply to like, maybe you and 1-2 other people in this thread. In other words, almost no one.
I don't really understand your point.
I make a mythic Keystone Group.
I have to hypothetically choose between two DPS.
an 850 Mage who says he's Frost.
An 850 DH.
I take the demon Hunter because his ilvl is the same as the Frost Mage and demon hunters are better DPS than Frost mages.
Sure, maybe the DH is a bad player and the Frost Mage is amazing, but there's no guarantee of that. It's equally likely to be the other way around. since I have no way of knowing, I make my decision with the assumption skill level is equal, and in that case the havoc is the clear choice.
Maybe I've misunderstood your point, but when pugging you have to pick a few DPS, and the only information you have to go on are ilvl, class, and (sometimes) spec. The safest approach is to pick the highest ilvl of the best specs of the best classes that apply, going down the list of applicants in that order.
Class only matters for the min maxing. As with basically every other aspect of balance, the skill of the player is almost always going to be a more deciding factor than what class you are bringing.
As I said, only a few of the outliers for REALLY badly performing specs in all aspects really would be a bad choice.
The skill of a player isn't a factor you can use when pugging. You have no way to determine the skill of a player. You take the optimal classes and specs and high item level players because although they might be bad, suboptimal specs and low item level players have just as much chance of being bad and then on top of that they are suboptimal and undergeared.
Do you think the proving grounds achievements have any meaningful degree of correlation with player skill? Anecdotally, I seem to have a better experience with the people who have gold damage versus the ones who don't. Haven't seen enough tanks with the achievements to speculate on them.
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Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
Class only matters for the min maxing. As with basically every other aspect of balance, the skill of the player is almost always going to be a more deciding factor than what class you are bringing.
As I said, only a few of the outliers for REALLY badly performing specs in all aspects really would be a bad choice.
The skill of a player isn't a factor you can use when pugging. You have no way to determine the skill of a player. You take the optimal classes and specs and high item level players because although they might be bad, suboptimal specs and low item level players have just as much chance of being bad and then on top of that they are suboptimal and undergeared.
Do you think the proving grounds achievements have any meaningful degree of correlation with player skill? Anecdotally, I seem to have a better experience with the people who have gold damage versus the ones who don't. Haven't seen enough tanks with the achievements to speculate on them.
Sort of. Certainly none of the truly terrible players will have completed gold proving grounds. but there are plenty of good ones who will not have either.
so it's good for filtering out bad players but not so good at identifying good ones
As a priest do I need to be shadow to see the hidden appearance drop?
I'm starting to burn out now that I've done the raid, my guild's raid seems to have fallen apart, and I have Broken Isles Pathfinding Part One all done. Kara comes out soon but I've definitely been playing less. Alts aren't super appealing since they all get to go through the same 5 zones. Again.
Do you mean the shadow weapon appearance from the big eye guy in Emerald Dream? I got it tonight from LFR as a disc priest. Also some pants that were only vaguely an upgrade and a keen trinket that procs an absorb and does it a lot.
I have no idea how to PLAY a Shadow priest. But if I do try it, I can have a super creepy weapon while I do it.
eh, melee are better than ranged in a lot of ways for m+; with the exception of sanguine and I guess skittish there's not a ton of reason to avoid them, and melee usually have more stuns/interrupts than ranged (also generally speaking they cleave better, although mages and hunters are exceptions to that on the ranged side.)
I still don't understand why they took Purge away from Enh and Ele (or was it just Enh?). It would make some specific mobs a lot more manageable.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Congrats! We made it to Cenarius on Saturday night and had 4 attempts getting as close as 20%. We're not pushing him into phase 2 until the last add wave spawns, and I just don't think we've got the DPS yet to take him out. Does Ahead of The Curve go away tomorrow, or is it when the next raid is released?
飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I mean, say what you want about mages, but they can bring the deeps. Plus, if that M+15 mage had the Lust legendary, then he put up crazy numbers that whole instance.
Fire is broken as hell, top tier aoe, top tier single target, top tier mobility, bloodlust.
What more could you possibly want. Well, fun, I think the spec plays like trash, but it's absurdly strong and the more fire mages in your group the better it probably is.
On a possibly related note, did some digging into what the Karazhan attunement will require.
Looks like the first part will involve Halls of Valor Mythic, and then afterwards you'll have to do Blackrook Hold Mythic, Violet Hold Mythic, and Vault of the Wardens Mythic in any order.
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yeah that is not how math works. Also the best performing spec on average doesn't mean the average player performs best at it.
While your whole WW monk group works because that is a fairly easy spec to play at average, it does not work for them all. If you want to claim you can't judge the skill of a Pug, you have no idea what you will get no matter what class. Just because one class might do 5% more dps on average, you then only have a 5% chance of them actually doing more than some other class that would have been at average.
Its really, really silly logic that would only apply to like, maybe you and 1-2 other people in this thread. In other words, almost no one.
I don't really understand your point.
I make a mythic Keystone Group.
I have to hypothetically choose between two DPS.
an 850 Mage who says he's Frost.
An 850 DH.
I take the demon Hunter because his ilvl is the same as the Frost Mage and demon hunters are better DPS than Frost mages.
Sure, maybe the DH is a bad player and the Frost Mage is amazing, but there's no guarantee of that. It's equally likely to be the other way around. since I have no way of knowing, I make my decision with the assumption skill level is equal, and in that case the havoc is the clear choice.
Maybe I've misunderstood your point, but when pugging you have to pick a few DPS, and the only information you have to go on are ilvl, class, and (sometimes) spec. The safest approach is to pick the highest ilvl of the best specs of the best classes that apply, going down the list of applicants in that order.
This is basically why i stopped playing. From someone who is forming the group's standpoint, this logic is exactly correct. I can't blame anyone for picking the most likely highest dps for highest chance of success. From someone who is playing a dps spec that is suboptimal, i either have to switch to a spec i don't enjoy playing, or just roll another character.
I've been sort of playing a monk, but it definitely still takes awhile to level one up to the legion content, even with all the crazy monk xp buffs and heirlooms (even 25 minutes per level adds up). I've been keeping an eye on balance changes, but I am not optimistic about them.
Hilariously, I still have no idea how to play my WW monk. Leveling as a healer has been so much faster, and i couldn't afford a set of heirlooms for both.
So finished hidden demonology skin , and luck would have it I also got the book that starts the affliction quest. Said quest is an unholy union of time gating and rng as the 13 skulls only drop from danger level warden quests , that are humanoid and do not repeat so you can't farm just one . Destro skin will never drop as that is the spec I play , I have made peace with that.
I havent...but I have taken to spitting on the demons corpse and threatening it aloud the entire time my random group is attacking it.
Similarly I've been threatening the Emessary that I will summon a demon up his ass if the box he is about to give me doesnt have a legendary in it. It has not worked, but hopefully this will help convince Blizzard that they are causing insanity.
Decided to try to give back a bit by making a plain mythic group with no ilvl requirement - put "newbies welcome" in the title. First app, 842 healer. Took them.
Then I got about 20+ DPS apps, all 855 or higher.
I mean, I'd absolutely love to take lower ilvl people, but they don't seem to actually be applying to groups.
I'll try the same experiment tomorrow. What instance did you use?
Me, my Guild leader tank, and another guild dps had to pug for a healer and dps in a plain mythic level yesterday. God it was awful. we managed to finish it but so many wipes...this from 3/5 people that regularly do at least Mythic+ 2-5. I guess i should be nicer to our guild healers.
Fire is broken as hell, top tier aoe, top tier single target, top tier mobility, bloodlust.
What more could you possibly want. Well, fun, I think the spec plays like trash, but it's absurdly strong and the more fire mages in your group the better it probably is.
I want my destro warlock to be a destro warlock and not this failure these imbeciles came up with. How do you go to the dev team with "we should just cut out their baseline skills and make them talents" and not immediately lose your job? At this point I'm fucking beyond bitterness and into hate.
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Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
eh, melee are better than ranged in a lot of ways for m+; with the exception of sanguine and I guess skittish there's not a ton of reason to avoid them, and melee usually have more stuns/interrupts than ranged (also generally speaking they cleave better, although mages and hunters are exceptions to that on the ranged side.)
I still don't understand why they took Purge away from Enh and Ele (or was it just Enh?). It would make some specific mobs a lot more manageable.
Man, I'd kill for a purge as shadow that didn't involve ground-targeting AOE's. Heck, make it a PvP talent if need be, and make it use the same cooldown as Mass Dispel. Could be nice to actually kill those paladins divine shielding instead of fumbling around trying to hit them with Mass.
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Man, I'd kill for a purge as shadow that didn't involve ground-targeting AOE's. Heck, make it a PvP talent if need be, and make it use the same cooldown as Mass Dispel. Could be nice to actually kill those paladins divine shielding instead of fumbling around trying to hit them with Mass.
Yeah, what the hell happened to priest single-target dispel?
If you want to get into PuGs at a reasonable pace, don't play as a DPS. Tanks have it easy, and even Healers can choose at will.
Also, AK makes it so that leveling offspecs is easier. My next trait in my main spec is at 130k, and at rank 25 I have everything important, so I'm filling offspecs. Did Ret up to...18 I think, now I'm doing Prot to 18 too.
+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2016
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Dhalphir on
+5
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
We’ve seen some talk among the community that you might be expecting to hear some news on legacy servers at BlizzCon, and we just wanted to take a moment to let you know that while we’re still discussing the possibility, we won’t have any updates to share on that until after the show.
These past few months we’ve been laser-focused on the launch of Legion and getting Patch 7.1: Return to Karazhan ready to go (it’s almost here!), as well as prepping for BlizzCon—which is always a huge undertaking itself. You’ve heard us say that the launch of Legion was just the beginning of the story we want to tell in this expansion. What we will focus on at BlizzCon is how the team is committed to making sure we bring you a steady stream of content going forward, and we can’t wait to share what’s next for Legion.
Thanks for your patience, and we’ll see you at BlizzCon.
-J. Allen Brack and the World of Warcraft development team
They need to have that message in front of any WoW panel they has a Q&A, with the disclaimer that if you ask about it, they're going to skip ahead to the next question.
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+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Felblade is now usable against targets in melee range even if the Demon Hunter is rooted
Man, I'd kill for a purge as shadow that didn't involve ground-targeting AOE's. Heck, make it a PvP talent if need be, and make it use the same cooldown as Mass Dispel. Could be nice to actually kill those paladins divine shielding instead of fumbling around trying to hit them with Mass.
Mass dispell is the ONLY ability that gets rid of pally bubble. Also, shadow priests do have "purge" i forget what it's called, but they do have one. It may just be called dispell magic.
Posts
That's the biggest reason why I prefer melee. The stuns. Especially the long duration stuns that Monks have. More than anything else, the biggest danger in high level keystones is spontaneous tank death, and the best way to avoid that is to be able to stun everything you are fighting when things get hectic.
Mages and Hunters have no reliable way to stun a pack of mobs, and so if you take a group full of them, you are asking a lot of your tank and healer in many specific dangerous spots throughout all the dungeons.
I'd rather make the Shaman a mistweaver and just run with 4 monks.
In fact, brewmasters are incredible in Keystone dungeons, so just run with 5 monks and call it good
While your whole WW monk group works because that is a fairly easy spec to play at average, it does not work for them all. If you want to claim you can't judge the skill of a Pug, you have no idea what you will get no matter what class. Just because one class might do 5% more dps on average, you then only have a 5% chance of them actually doing more than some other class that would have been at average.
Its really, really silly logic that would only apply to like, maybe you and 1-2 other people in this thread. In other words, almost no one.
It was only Sephuz's Secret, but I'm not complaining since it's statted appropriately for me.
EDIT: And after thinking about it, actually seems pretty dang sweet for m+'s, since it's on the same cooldown as Mind Bomb to rip through trash.
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I don't really understand your point.
I make a mythic Keystone Group.
I have to hypothetically choose between two DPS.
an 850 Mage who says he's Frost.
An 850 DH.
I take the demon Hunter because his ilvl is the same as the Frost Mage and demon hunters are better DPS than Frost mages.
Sure, maybe the DH is a bad player and the Frost Mage is amazing, but there's no guarantee of that. It's equally likely to be the other way around. since I have no way of knowing, I make my decision with the assumption skill level is equal, and in that case the havoc is the clear choice.
Maybe I've misunderstood your point, but when pugging you have to pick a few DPS, and the only information you have to go on are ilvl, class, and (sometimes) spec. The safest approach is to pick the highest ilvl of the best specs of the best classes that apply, going down the list of applicants in that order.
Do you think the proving grounds achievements have any meaningful degree of correlation with player skill? Anecdotally, I seem to have a better experience with the people who have gold damage versus the ones who don't. Haven't seen enough tanks with the achievements to speculate on them.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
Sort of. Certainly none of the truly terrible players will have completed gold proving grounds. but there are plenty of good ones who will not have either.
so it's good for filtering out bad players but not so good at identifying good ones
Do you mean the shadow weapon appearance from the big eye guy in Emerald Dream? I got it tonight from LFR as a disc priest. Also some pants that were only vaguely an upgrade and a keen trinket that procs an absorb and does it a lot.
I have no idea how to PLAY a Shadow priest. But if I do try it, I can have a super creepy weapon while I do it.
I still don't understand why they took Purge away from Enh and Ele (or was it just Enh?). It would make some specific mobs a lot more manageable.
Not for keystones. They bring nothing but DPS and a DH or Monk can bring that with a bunch f utility too.
Congrats! We made it to Cenarius on Saturday night and had 4 attempts getting as close as 20%. We're not pushing him into phase 2 until the last add wave spawns, and I just don't think we've got the DPS yet to take him out. Does Ahead of The Curve go away tomorrow, or is it when the next raid is released?
Top groups are using mages
Pretty sure the first mythic 15 had a fire mage
Not saying the DH or ww comps are bad, but top mythics have been using mages so they seem pretty handy to bring
But it always sounds like you are telling us what is best. I know you are good at the game, but come on.
Hard stuns are not the only way to handle Keystones. They are the most straightforward and braindead, but not the only way.
What more could you possibly want. Well, fun, I think the spec plays like trash, but it's absurdly strong and the more fire mages in your group the better it probably is.
Looks like the first part will involve Halls of Valor Mythic, and then afterwards you'll have to do Blackrook Hold Mythic, Violet Hold Mythic, and Vault of the Wardens Mythic in any order.
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This is basically why i stopped playing. From someone who is forming the group's standpoint, this logic is exactly correct. I can't blame anyone for picking the most likely highest dps for highest chance of success. From someone who is playing a dps spec that is suboptimal, i either have to switch to a spec i don't enjoy playing, or just roll another character.
I've been sort of playing a monk, but it definitely still takes awhile to level one up to the legion content, even with all the crazy monk xp buffs and heirlooms (even 25 minutes per level adds up). I've been keeping an eye on balance changes, but I am not optimistic about them.
Hilariously, I still have no idea how to play my WW monk. Leveling as a healer has been so much faster, and i couldn't afford a set of heirlooms for both.
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I havent...but I have taken to spitting on the demons corpse and threatening it aloud the entire time my random group is attacking it.
Similarly I've been threatening the Emessary that I will summon a demon up his ass if the box he is about to give me doesnt have a legendary in it. It has not worked, but hopefully this will help convince Blizzard that they are causing insanity.
Me, my Guild leader tank, and another guild dps had to pug for a healer and dps in a plain mythic level yesterday. God it was awful. we managed to finish it but so many wipes...this from 3/5 people that regularly do at least Mythic+ 2-5. I guess i should be nicer to our guild healers.
I want my Destro lock to have fire mages mastery.
Sounds like a Warlock.
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They didn't.
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Yeah, what the hell happened to priest single-target dispel?
Steam: pazython
Hard stuns are required for >+10.
If you want to get into PuGs at a reasonable pace, don't play as a DPS. Tanks have it easy, and even Healers can choose at will.
Also, AK makes it so that leveling offspecs is easier. My next trait in my main spec is at 130k, and at rank 25 I have everything important, so I'm filling offspecs. Did Ret up to...18 I think, now I'm doing Prot to 18 too.
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Thank fucking Christ
Mass dispell is the ONLY ability that gets rid of pally bubble. Also, shadow priests do have "purge" i forget what it's called, but they do have one. It may just be called dispell magic.
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Like fighting that crooked tree bitch is so angering because I can't stop her fear.
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