I'm betting they'll treat them like dungeon timewalking and just ignore vanilla entirely, since raid design back then was completely horrible in every way.
While I guess some notice would have been fine, why is that 35th rank such a line in the sand? Pretty much all of the traits enhance performance, so someone with a level 20 artifact is going to be at a disadvantage to someone with a level 34, the same way a rank 34 will be at a disadvantage against a level 44, and they just released a pretty solid equalizer to people who are new or who haven't been up on researching AK. Why is this particular change so ire-raising?
I think because that point is basically a flat % percent more better point and then you can keep adding more to it if you are grinding enough AP so potentially it could be a sizable break point gear wise for damage output.
Dear Blizzard, since you refuse to fix the server connection problems with the Armory app, please add Pet Battles to the Legion app so I have something to do at lunch besides looking up YT vids.
Because the Molten Core anniversary edition was such a joy.
I had almost forgotten about that. Holy shit, you're right. That was arduous.
It was? I don't recall it being all that bad, and I ran it on at least 11 different characters at the time.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I really would prefer they not make Timewalking raids a queue affair. When you make raids queueable like LFR, you have to make them trivial so that uncoordinated groups can actually do them. Trivial means boring, and boring means they become a chore that you only do for applicable rewards, like timewalking has already become.
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
But that is what it is meant to be honestly.
It's a sightseeing playground where you can bring out old gear and get use out of it. It also has some twinking opportunities. There mere existence of that second thing is why it would be a waste trying to make it hard.
I think there's definitely a difference between wanting the fights to be "hard" and "have mechanics that aren't trivialized."
If things are so easy that you can face-roll through them and ignore all the mechanics, is it really considered "seeing" the raid?
I think it may be something where they have to pick and choose raids that would actually still hold up to modern sensibilities. I honestly don't think any of the vanilla ones do. Even some of the BC ones are iffy. Tempest Keep might be one of the only ones in BC that would be okay. Gruul's and Mag's might be okay, people understand the concept of shatters better now, although the first boss in Mag's might be rough.
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0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
They do that somewhat in the dungeons. There are things here and there that clearly are "do it right or die" no matter how overpowered you are.
But again, unless they do a huge rewrite of the rules (which is entirely possible mind you) it cant possibly be anything more than trivialized because of how much you can twink for timewalking.
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
It's a sightseeing playground where you can bring out old gear and get use out of it. It also has some twinking opportunities. There mere existence of that second thing is why it would be a waste trying to make it hard.
It can easily be more than a sightseeing playground. If they're going to do TW raids, they should do them properly. Have a queue difficulty that is trivial and boring, and have a harder difficulty that is premade group only and provides decent difficulty with matching rewards. Something on par with the difficulty level of Heroic raids.
I'm not saying I have all the answers, but if all they're going to do with TW raids is just make a replica of TW dungeons, where you queue up for your 5 in a week just to get a cache and it's an utter slog and a chore to get through, then why bother introducing the feature at all?
Dhalphir on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2017
Because the tech is there, it would be easy, and some people actually do like it for what it is?
I mean, in order to get what you are asking for would be A LOT of work. There are so many things that prevent old content from being a challenge unless you basically rebalance everything. Encounters expecting old mechanics, the lack of certain options that exist now that trivialize those things outright, the way stats work now, etc. Every single expansion has always made content from the last noticeably easier even at the right level.
I don't think they would even consider the whole timewalking thing if they had to put that kind of effort into it. It is basically a "you get a trivial version or you get nothing" and enough people wanted it regardless that we got it.
The Sunwell would be fine, in some ways better than TK.
I'm kind of curious about how well a properly scaled M'uru would hold up.
Poorly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66C7dMq7u30
TL, DW: Is a boring fight that was only hard because adds were ridicously tuned up and "bring the player, not the class" wasn't a thing until Wrath.
Either they preserve the mechanics and it's legacy molten core only worse (lol any BC raid in a pub), or they don't and it's a faceroll. And if the latter why even bother, since interested groups can already faceroll the old raids
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Because even if its faceroll, unlike how they currently are it would only be faceroll for a group. Meaning, in some form, it will require some semblance of group coordination.
It won't matter to most people here. But it will matter to certain groups of people. And it is likely super easy to implement at this point.
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Because even if its faceroll, unlike how they currently are it would only be faceroll for a group. Meaning, in some form, it will require some semblance of group coordination.
It won't matter to most people here. But it will matter to certain groups of people. And it is likely super easy to implement at this point.
They cannot make it require any form of coordination whatsoever if it will be LFR.
LFR is for those of us who don't have active guilds and do things in pickup groups exclusively. Yeah you can walk into an old raid and one-shot everything by yourself, but it's less an experience than when you're sharing it with a batch of randoms on the internet.
Dear Blizzard, since you refuse to fix the server connection problems with the Armory app, please add Pet Battles to the Legion app so I have something to do at lunch besides looking up YT vids.
The armory app has pet battles? Can you level then that way?
Because even if its faceroll, unlike how they currently are it would only be faceroll for a group. Meaning, in some form, it will require some semblance of group coordination.
It won't matter to most people here. But it will matter to certain groups of people. And it is likely super easy to implement at this point.
They cannot make it require any form of coordination whatsoever if it will be LFR.
Having a tank and a healer = semblance of coordination.
Like, I dunno maybe you can solo something LFR like, but I would like to think its (just barely) not possible.
Dear Blizzard, since you refuse to fix the server connection problems with the Armory app, please add Pet Battles to the Legion app so I have something to do at lunch besides looking up YT vids.
The armory app has pet battles? Can you level then that way?
It does not, but if the Armory app doesn't work then I have to have something to replace the AH
Re: timewalking raids - I think they need to start with the Wrath raids and go from there.
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I'm not sure how they could tweak the Football mechanic on Vashj and the first boss of SSC has way too much troll potential due to his "hidden line" mechanic.
KT is probably the toughest one to tweak in Tempest Keep.
RoS and maybe Bloodboil in BT require understanding the mechanics, but the rest are pretty straightforward.
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I think another aspect of why they wouldn't make them hard is... getting people to actually do them.
The dungeons are short little romps and the rewards can come pretty consistently.
Some of the older raids (ESPECIALLY bad in TBC) are very long and have huge gaps between bosses because of both size and trash. If those were even remotely challenging, you would have no one even queueing for them unless the rewards were equal or greater to current raids (which will never happen). They could make a "required" quest for it all they want, unlike the dungeons which even if they were hard you can power through, these WERE raids and thus as Mugs was describing many required coordination even beyond their tuning that would take time for almost any group to really get. Time no one is going to want to waste on fun content.
It seems like the people here questioning them if they were too easy are actual serious raiders. Timewalking is never going to be for that, because you would then be taking a small % of the population and try to take what would be a small % of THAT population to try and make 25 man groups happen.
Thus, it would actually truly be a waste of time TO make them hard. No groups would ever form.
Legacy molten core wasn't particularly "hard," but was a legit terrible experience. Just completely awful in every respect. I assume they would do better if they implemented timewalking raids as something other than a one-off event, but they still face the issue of adapting old raids to modern design/play expectations.
Modern LFR requires basically no coordination; you need nominal tanks and healers but in practice they're barely required. Its raison d'etre is giving non-raiders a way to "see the content," but in the case of old raids we already have that.
I dunno, there's like a million things I'd devote engineering time to before timewalking raids entered the project plan
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Says a lot about the state of their balancing and testing when they have to increase skills by almost 50% just to bring them in line.
I'm guessing from comments by former developers (on twitter, mostly) and with Chris leaving and lots of the team moving to different projects, that there is a toxic environment on the WoW side of things over there. The talented game designers have left or switched projects, and WoW is left with B and C squad running things. It's a damn shame too, because everything besides class design is so well done. The class design team is really letting the whole team down, here. It's like having a team full of NFL players stuck with a quarterback from the JV team of the local high school.
I did an LFR Trial of Valor yesterday on my DH to get a Helya kill for that Illidan quest chain, and legitimately did not need any healing outside my own self-healing the whole time. LFR requires roughly as much coordination as an entire server population zerging the weekly world boss on tuesday afternoon.
I don't know where they factor it in to their current raid model, though. Rolling it into current timewalking weeklies would be weird, and making their own timewalking weeklies would just add bloat to what is already a pretty big rotation of events.
Javen on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Personally, rather than timewalking raids, I'd like it if they re-used the old raids but added new story and bosses. Like that whole "Odyn returns to Ulduar" business. Use the currently existing map, but plant new bosses in there. Maybe make it a slowly filling side-raid: at launch it's up to the XT-002 room, then at some point in the future you fight your way to open the inner sanctum, and so on. Use that to fill in the gaps inbetween new raids, similar to how Trial of Valor was supposed to work.
Personally, rather than timewalking raids, I'd like it if they re-used the old raids but added new story and bosses. Like that whole "Odyn returns to Ulduar" business. Use the currently existing map, but plant new bosses in there. Maybe make it a slowly filling side-raid: at launch it's up to the XT-002 room, then at some point in the future you fight your way to open the inner sanctum, and so on. Use that to fill in the gaps inbetween new raids, similar to how Trial of Valor was supposed to work.
I actually figured there'd be a 'return to Ulduar' patch like the Karazhan 7.1, since the pre-patch Legion quests involve you going to Ulduar to find out some stuff, and then shit goes down and you have to run away
Personally, rather than timewalking raids, I'd like it if they re-used the old raids but added new story and bosses. Like that whole "Odyn returns to Ulduar" business. Use the currently existing map, but plant new bosses in there. Maybe make it a slowly filling side-raid: at launch it's up to the XT-002 room, then at some point in the future you fight your way to open the inner sanctum, and so on. Use that to fill in the gaps inbetween new raids, similar to how Trial of Valor was supposed to work.
That's a very cool idea.
They struck the balance very well in Return to Karazhan between bringing back enough of the old instance to trigger powerful waves of nostalgia but also introducing enough new content that it didn't feel recycled or cheap.
Says a lot about the state of their balancing and testing when they have to increase skills by almost 50% just to bring them in line.
Yeah... Reminds me of the monk pet things where they increased the damage by 3x... is it really that hard to sim out damage?
+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I'm not a big fan of that gif being used for a WoW joke. That accident broke the cyclist's kneecap and quite possibly ended her career, because the organisers were fucking retarded.
I'm not sure why people expect timewalking to be hard. I think the devs intended it to be easy content, that had better rewards than just facerolling at max level. As for why anyone would do them over an easier faceroll. Timewalking means you get more gold, artifact power, maybe some gear upgrades, badges, relevant enchanting mats if you are an enchanter, maybe they'll have the boons work in those (can't remember if they work now in the current ones).
I think the biggest issues they'll have to deal with. Are figuring out how to place them in the rotation because it is kind of full. Maybe they could double them up with one of the PvP ones or the pet weekly stuff. The other issue is figuring out how to split those raids because no one is going to want to spend a ton of time in raid; especially, if the group is full of awful people. I imagine when they happen, their is going to be a bit of redesign to make them more digestible for LFR settings and to hammer out any potential hangups that could be a result of something having been removed.
Posts
I think because that point is basically a flat % percent more better point and then you can keep adding more to it if you are grinding enough AP so potentially it could be a sizable break point gear wise for damage output.
It was? I don't recall it being all that bad, and I ran it on at least 11 different characters at the time.
It's a sightseeing playground where you can bring out old gear and get use out of it. It also has some twinking opportunities. There mere existence of that second thing is why it would be a waste trying to make it hard.
If things are so easy that you can face-roll through them and ignore all the mechanics, is it really considered "seeing" the raid?
I think it may be something where they have to pick and choose raids that would actually still hold up to modern sensibilities. I honestly don't think any of the vanilla ones do. Even some of the BC ones are iffy. Tempest Keep might be one of the only ones in BC that would be okay. Gruul's and Mag's might be okay, people understand the concept of shatters better now, although the first boss in Mag's might be rough.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
But again, unless they do a huge rewrite of the rules (which is entirely possible mind you) it cant possibly be anything more than trivialized because of how much you can twink for timewalking.
It can easily be more than a sightseeing playground. If they're going to do TW raids, they should do them properly. Have a queue difficulty that is trivial and boring, and have a harder difficulty that is premade group only and provides decent difficulty with matching rewards. Something on par with the difficulty level of Heroic raids.
I'm not saying I have all the answers, but if all they're going to do with TW raids is just make a replica of TW dungeons, where you queue up for your 5 in a week just to get a cache and it's an utter slog and a chore to get through, then why bother introducing the feature at all?
I mean, in order to get what you are asking for would be A LOT of work. There are so many things that prevent old content from being a challenge unless you basically rebalance everything. Encounters expecting old mechanics, the lack of certain options that exist now that trivialize those things outright, the way stats work now, etc. Every single expansion has always made content from the last noticeably easier even at the right level.
I don't think they would even consider the whole timewalking thing if they had to put that kind of effort into it. It is basically a "you get a trivial version or you get nothing" and enough people wanted it regardless that we got it.
The Sunwell would be fine, in some ways better than TK.
I'm kind of curious about how well a properly scaled M'uru would hold up.
Poorly:
TL, DW: Is a boring fight that was only hard because adds were ridicously tuned up and "bring the player, not the class" wasn't a thing until Wrath.
Either they preserve the mechanics and it's legacy molten core only worse (lol any BC raid in a pub), or they don't and it's a faceroll. And if the latter why even bother, since interested groups can already faceroll the old raids
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
It won't matter to most people here. But it will matter to certain groups of people. And it is likely super easy to implement at this point.
They cannot make it require any form of coordination whatsoever if it will be LFR.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752541534
spriest + dh slight nerfs
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
I just got to the bridge.
Can you spot the hero!? Oh my god what an amazing moment.
The armory app has pet battles? Can you level then that way?
Which quest is that? I was under the impression I only had one left, the moon guard one, but i don't recognise that
Steam: adamjnet
Insurrection questline, on one of the final chapters, is the climax of the whole thing.
Having a tank and a healer = semblance of coordination.
Like, I dunno maybe you can solo something LFR like, but I would like to think its (just barely) not possible.
It does not, but if the Armory app doesn't work then I have to have something to replace the AH
=====
I'm not sure how they could tweak the Football mechanic on Vashj and the first boss of SSC has way too much troll potential due to his "hidden line" mechanic.
KT is probably the toughest one to tweak in Tempest Keep.
RoS and maybe Bloodboil in BT require understanding the mechanics, but the rest are pretty straightforward.
The dungeons are short little romps and the rewards can come pretty consistently.
Some of the older raids (ESPECIALLY bad in TBC) are very long and have huge gaps between bosses because of both size and trash. If those were even remotely challenging, you would have no one even queueing for them unless the rewards were equal or greater to current raids (which will never happen). They could make a "required" quest for it all they want, unlike the dungeons which even if they were hard you can power through, these WERE raids and thus as Mugs was describing many required coordination even beyond their tuning that would take time for almost any group to really get. Time no one is going to want to waste on fun content.
It seems like the people here questioning them if they were too easy are actual serious raiders. Timewalking is never going to be for that, because you would then be taking a small % of the population and try to take what would be a small % of THAT population to try and make 25 man groups happen.
Thus, it would actually truly be a waste of time TO make them hard. No groups would ever form.
Modern LFR requires basically no coordination; you need nominal tanks and healers but in practice they're barely required. Its raison d'etre is giving non-raiders a way to "see the content," but in the case of old raids we already have that.
I dunno, there's like a million things I'd devote engineering time to before timewalking raids entered the project plan
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I'm guessing from comments by former developers (on twitter, mostly) and with Chris leaving and lots of the team moving to different projects, that there is a toxic environment on the WoW side of things over there. The talented game designers have left or switched projects, and WoW is left with B and C squad running things. It's a damn shame too, because everything besides class design is so well done. The class design team is really letting the whole team down, here. It's like having a team full of NFL players stuck with a quarterback from the JV team of the local high school.
I don't know where they factor it in to their current raid model, though. Rolling it into current timewalking weeklies would be weird, and making their own timewalking weeklies would just add bloat to what is already a pretty big rotation of events.
I actually figured there'd be a 'return to Ulduar' patch like the Karazhan 7.1, since the pre-patch Legion quests involve you going to Ulduar to find out some stuff, and then shit goes down and you have to run away
Yeah... Reminds me of the monk pet things where they increased the damage by 3x... is it really that hard to sim out damage?
That's a very cool idea.
They struck the balance very well in Return to Karazhan between bringing back enough of the old instance to trigger powerful waves of nostalgia but also introducing enough new content that it didn't feel recycled or cheap.
I think the biggest issues they'll have to deal with. Are figuring out how to place them in the rotation because it is kind of full. Maybe they could double them up with one of the PvP ones or the pet weekly stuff. The other issue is figuring out how to split those raids because no one is going to want to spend a ton of time in raid; especially, if the group is full of awful people. I imagine when they happen, their is going to be a bit of redesign to make them more digestible for LFR settings and to hammer out any potential hangups that could be a result of something having been removed.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.