BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Cancer happens when energetic particles or waves kick electrons off of atoms, changing their chemical properties and upsetting the delicate organic chemistry that is DNA replication.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Cancer happens when energetic particles or waves kick electrons off of atoms, changing their chemical properties and upsetting the delicate organic chemistry that is DNA replication.
Yeah, I've understood the basics of the biological process. I just realized the morning that the physics part of the process had some questions.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
when your DNA observes the photon it collapses the wave function into a cancer causing particle which is why i keep my DNA witless and completely unaware of its surroundings
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Cancer happens when energetic particles or waves kick electrons off of atoms, changing their chemical properties and upsetting the delicate organic chemistry that is DNA replication.
That’s ... partly true. It’s more complicated than just kicking our electrons to generate radicals.
The other major mechanism of UV based damage is photoinduced dimerization of dna bases.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I just want to clarify one thing regarding particle wave duality. All light exist as a wave function. A photon is the collapsed wave function of light. Wave functions collapse during observation and measurement. To say that light exists as both a particle and a wave kind of misses the true definition of a particle. A fundamental particle (like an electron or photons) is the collapsed wave function of fundamental energy fields. I don't really understand all the math behind it but I can site the double slit experiment for a practical demonstration of this. With no observer, you get a wave pattern. With an observer you get a particle pattern. Light waves turn into particles when we tell them to.
Waveforms turn into particles when they interact with something. Like the film at the back of the double slit experiment. But basically everything small enough not to constantly being interacting with things has this behavior, like the massive, but still fucking tiny electron. Or protons, I think, but they're hard.
Until they interact with that, they act as waves and interfere with other quantized chucks of electromagnetic spectrum and or even themself.
it get's weird with electrons, because you can measure them as they go through one of the slits, and because you know which slit it went through it movement gets constrained, and some portion(the ones you measure at one of the slits) of the electrons you shoot through only end up doing a single slit diffraction. Or something.
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Cancer happens when energetic particles or waves kick electrons off of atoms, changing their chemical properties and upsetting the delicate organic chemistry that is DNA replication.
Consider that wave-particle duality means that the single best model of the universe is a song sung eternally to itself, infinite in harmony.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
Iirc, black holes are an exception to the exclusion principle? But they're crazy
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
Iirc, black holes are an exception to the exclusion principle? But they're crazy
Yeah if you have enough insane level forces bearing down on something you can break the exclusion principle which is normally only something that happens incompletely in neutron stars and completely in black holes.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
No, I mean like when a Neutron "hits" a Neutron, two particles that do not follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle,(Edit: whoops, way wrong) Particle "hits" a Particle they do not ever physically touch as we understand what those words mean. Each of their exact locations are a probability of possible locations, and once a threshold for their probability to interact is reached, which is varying and arbitrarily set by the universe for each interaction, they then exchange information like energy and momentum
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
No, I mean like when a Neutron "hits" a Neutron, two particles that do not follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle, they do not ever physically touch as we understand what those words mean. Each of their exact locations are a probability of possible locations, and once a threshold for their probability to interact is reached, which is varying and arbitrarily set by the universe for each interaction, they then exchange information like energy and momentum
Neutrons (and Protons) follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle, the quantum energy levels are just different than they are for electrons. This is why Neutron Stars are a thing.
But the rest of what you are saying is also pretty much true.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
No, I mean like when a Neutron "hits" a Neutron, two particles that do not follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle, they do not ever physically touch as we understand what those words mean. Each of their exact locations are a probability of possible locations, and once a threshold for their probability to interact is reached, which is varying and arbitrarily set by the universe for each interaction, they then exchange information like energy and momentum
Neutrons (and Protons) follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle, the quantum energy levels are just different than they are for electrons. This is why Neutron Stars are a thing.
But the rest of what you are saying is also pretty much true.
Whoops, yeah, no idea why I typed Neutron instead of Photon. Edited the post and just used Particles because really, that's how they all work.
This always makes me curious if there really is strange matter floating around space somewhere, just waiting to assimilate us.
Strangelets, if they exist, converting any matter it comes in contact with into more strange matter is another one of those mind bending things in physics I'll never get tired of.
Though for end of life scenarios I'd rather it be via Higgs vacuum decay. Instantaneous and you'd never see it coming so no sense worrying about it. Unless you're the paranoid sort.
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
So I was right on all those car trips and my sister was wrong
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
So I was right on all those car trips and my sister was wrong
I wasn't touching and she couldn't get mad
Stop transferring energy and momentum to your sister or so help me I will turn this car around!
Yeah, it was just a shower thought this morning about "how are wave-forms actually 'hitting' physical particles to produce the problems that result in cancer".
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
So I was right on all those car trips and my sister was wrong
I wasn't touching and she couldn't get mad
Stop transferring energy and momentum to your sister or so help me I will turn this car around!
Well, that went to a weird place.
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Researchers at Cardiff University were analysing blood from a bank in Wales, looking for immune cells that could fight bacteria, when they found an entirely new type of T-cell.
That new immune cell carries a never-before-seen receptor which acts like a grappling hook, latching on to most human cancers, while ignoring healthy cells.
In laboratory studies, immune cells equipped with the new receptor were shown to kill lung, skin, blood, colon, breast, bone, prostate, ovarian, kidney and cervical cancer.
Researchers at Cardiff University were analysing blood from a bank in Wales, looking for immune cells that could fight bacteria, when they found an entirely new type of T-cell.
That new immune cell carries a never-before-seen receptor which acts like a grappling hook, latching on to most human cancers, while ignoring healthy cells.
In laboratory studies, immune cells equipped with the new receptor were shown to kill lung, skin, blood, colon, breast, bone, prostate, ovarian, kidney and cervical cancer.
Can't wait for this Cells at Work character introduction.
Basically, when these cells 1) Mutate enough that they don't die, 2) behave badly, 3) are not recognized by other t-cells as cancerous. T-Cell Lymphoma is totally a thing that happens, and variants of it can be bad. Mostly because they aren't detected early.
The BBC article is talking about taking samples of the patient's stem cells, CRISPRing them, growing a whole bunch and injecting them back into the patient. And CRISPR is amazing, but not perfect. So some portion of the T cells would maybe be kinda genetically fucked, but maybe able to reproduce and not be killed by all the other T Cells they are being cultured with.
The healthy ones kill original cancer, then they keep observing the heck out of the patient for long enough to ensure it doesn't recur and the new cells don't do anything untoward. Then probably radiation/chemo therapy if it does? Probably less than would have originally been required. I'd assume that's an unlikely series of events, because they would testing the T cells they were making.
I thought we were already modifying t-cells to carry cancer-targeting HIV-variants
It's a brand new type of T-Cell.
As of now we know of, I think, 8 or so different types.
And as for CRISPR modification giving cancer... your body is really good at fighting cancer, it does it every day. Sometimes things just slip by, so there shouldn't be too much worry that some of the genetically engineered T-Cells would cause cancer. Even if they did, a ultra low dose of chemo would probably be enough after treatment.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
HIV by its nature is just a great vector for gene therapy and modification. Once you take out the whole “killing people” parts, of course.
HIV works by basically infiltrating cells, inserting itself into host dna and changing it to produce HIV virus proteins, which repackage HIV dna into new HIV viruses and cause cells to essentially suicide themselves and burst to let those new viruses out, which is what causes the pathogenicity (edit - I was a little off in this, a lot of viruses do this, but HIV actually buds rather than spreading by killing cells, it does cause T cells to kill themselves by apoptosis which is why it is deadly but what advantage if any it gets from doing this is unclear).
So if you keep the infiltrating cells and dna part but ditch the replication and cell murder parts you can have a virus which will just infect cells, transplant whatever protein producing dna you want, then sit there doing nothing else but making that protein.
I would be surprised if this didn’t increase cancer risk, just due to fucking with DNA, but id you already have cancer or some other horrible lethal chronic disease adding a small additional risk of cancer later is going to be a lesser evil.
HIV by its nature is just a great vector for gene therapy and modification. Once you take out the whole “killing people” parts, of course.
I left that part out, yeah
Although the drawback is i think each treatment is custom to the patient, vs this new discovery that seems more universal (i ran into the paywall too early to determine if that assumption is true)
The CRISPR in the cancer paper isn’t used in any way to develop the antibody they use. It’s used as a tool to identify the target of the antibody.
It’s highlighted, I suspect, because that’s a technology the authors developed and they want to promote it, but it’s not directly relevant to the human health part.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
So, science sites are reporting "first animal that doesn't need oxygen"
but in looking for additional articles to the first one, I found a 2010 article referring to a totally different metazoan that also lacked mitochondria. Is this just a factor of science over-hyping things, or was the previous discovery discounted?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
but in looking for additional articles to the first one, I found a 2010 article referring to a totally different metazoan that also lacked mitochondria. Is this just a factor of science over-hyping things, or was the previous discovery discounted?
I posted about this in [chat], but what's relevant here is the qualifier "animal". The organism they just discovered is in the Kingdom Animalia, as opposed to being in Kingdom "who fucking knows". Both are in Domain Eukaryota, meaning they possess a cell with a nucleus and organelles (thus they aren't bacteria or archae, which are in Domain Prokaryota).
The organism in question here is in Phylum Cnidaria, and is thus a relative of jellyfish (which do have mitochondria in their cells!) that has adapted for a parasitic lifestyle inside a fish host, and thus they've eliminated the need for mitochondria. This is pretty common (the other organisms in Eukarya which don't have mitochondria are also internal parasites as well- Giardia and Monocercomonoides).
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The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
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Cancer happens when energetic particles or waves kick electrons off of atoms, changing their chemical properties and upsetting the delicate organic chemistry that is DNA replication.
Yeah, I've understood the basics of the biological process. I just realized the morning that the physics part of the process had some questions.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
That’s ... partly true. It’s more complicated than just kicking our electrons to generate radicals.
The other major mechanism of UV based damage is photoinduced dimerization of dna bases.
feels relevant
Waveforms turn into particles when they interact with something. Like the film at the back of the double slit experiment. But basically everything small enough not to constantly being interacting with things has this behavior, like the massive, but still fucking tiny electron. Or protons, I think, but they're hard.
Until they interact with that, they act as waves and interfere with other quantized chucks of electromagnetic spectrum and or even themself.
it get's weird with electrons, because you can measure them as they go through one of the slits, and because you know which slit it went through it movement gets constrained, and some portion(the ones you measure at one of the slits) of the electrons you shoot through only end up doing a single slit diffraction. Or something.
Consider that wave-particle duality means that the single best model of the universe is a song sung eternally to itself, infinite in harmony.
Well, in that case, part of problem you might be having answering that thought is that nothing ever actually physically hits anything else. Essentially, all particles interact with other particles by getting close enough that an exchange of energy and momentum from one to the other can happen.
Well, pauli exclusion principle can really be thought of as things hitting physically in a way. Which, along with electromagnetic repulsion is why you don’t just fall through the floor. So it isn’t things not being able to occupy the same physical space but not being able to occupy the same quantum energy level, but either way it keeps pieces of solid matter from just passing through each other.
Iirc, black holes are an exception to the exclusion principle? But they're crazy
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Yeah if you have enough insane level forces bearing down on something you can break the exclusion principle which is normally only something that happens incompletely in neutron stars and completely in black holes.
No, I mean like when a Neutron "hits" a Neutron, two particles that do not follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle,(Edit: whoops, way wrong) Particle "hits" a Particle they do not ever physically touch as we understand what those words mean. Each of their exact locations are a probability of possible locations, and once a threshold for their probability to interact is reached, which is varying and arbitrarily set by the universe for each interaction, they then exchange information like energy and momentum
Neutrons (and Protons) follow the Pauli Exclusion Principle, the quantum energy levels are just different than they are for electrons. This is why Neutron Stars are a thing.
But the rest of what you are saying is also pretty much true.
Whoops, yeah, no idea why I typed Neutron instead of Photon. Edited the post and just used Particles because really, that's how they all work.
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Strangelets, if they exist, converting any matter it comes in contact with into more strange matter is another one of those mind bending things in physics I'll never get tired of.
Though for end of life scenarios I'd rather it be via Higgs vacuum decay. Instantaneous and you'd never see it coming so no sense worrying about it. Unless you're the paranoid sort.
So I was right on all those car trips and my sister was wrong
I wasn't touching and she couldn't get mad
Stop transferring energy and momentum to your sister or so help me I will turn this car around!
Well, that went to a weird place.
Researchers at Cardiff University were analysing blood from a bank in Wales, looking for immune cells that could fight bacteria, when they found an entirely new type of T-cell.
That new immune cell carries a never-before-seen receptor which acts like a grappling hook, latching on to most human cancers, while ignoring healthy cells.
In laboratory studies, immune cells equipped with the new receptor were shown to kill lung, skin, blood, colon, breast, bone, prostate, ovarian, kidney and cervical cancer.
Can't wait for this Cells at Work character introduction.
T-cell-eating gorillas
with the strength of ten men
Resident Evil
Basically, when these cells 1) Mutate enough that they don't die, 2) behave badly, 3) are not recognized by other t-cells as cancerous. T-Cell Lymphoma is totally a thing that happens, and variants of it can be bad. Mostly because they aren't detected early.
The BBC article is talking about taking samples of the patient's stem cells, CRISPRing them, growing a whole bunch and injecting them back into the patient. And CRISPR is amazing, but not perfect. So some portion of the T cells would maybe be kinda genetically fucked, but maybe able to reproduce and not be killed by all the other T Cells they are being cultured with.
The healthy ones kill original cancer, then they keep observing the heck out of the patient for long enough to ensure it doesn't recur and the new cells don't do anything untoward. Then probably radiation/chemo therapy if it does? Probably less than would have originally been required. I'd assume that's an unlikely series of events, because they would testing the T cells they were making.
wild guess.
That or cancer bears.
I mean I understand the idea, but that sentence holds a kind of terror way out of proportion to the likely risk.
It's a brand new type of T-Cell.
As of now we know of, I think, 8 or so different types.
And as for CRISPR modification giving cancer... your body is really good at fighting cancer, it does it every day. Sometimes things just slip by, so there shouldn't be too much worry that some of the genetically engineered T-Cells would cause cancer. Even if they did, a ultra low dose of chemo would probably be enough after treatment.
HIV works by basically infiltrating cells, inserting itself into host dna and changing it to produce HIV virus proteins, which repackage HIV dna into new HIV viruses and cause cells to essentially suicide themselves and burst to let those new viruses out, which is what causes the pathogenicity (edit - I was a little off in this, a lot of viruses do this, but HIV actually buds rather than spreading by killing cells, it does cause T cells to kill themselves by apoptosis which is why it is deadly but what advantage if any it gets from doing this is unclear).
So if you keep the infiltrating cells and dna part but ditch the replication and cell murder parts you can have a virus which will just infect cells, transplant whatever protein producing dna you want, then sit there doing nothing else but making that protein.
I would be surprised if this didn’t increase cancer risk, just due to fucking with DNA, but id you already have cancer or some other horrible lethal chronic disease adding a small additional risk of cancer later is going to be a lesser evil.
I left that part out, yeah
Although the drawback is i think each treatment is custom to the patient, vs this new discovery that seems more universal (i ran into the paywall too early to determine if that assumption is true)
The CRISPR in the cancer paper isn’t used in any way to develop the antibody they use. It’s used as a tool to identify the target of the antibody.
It’s highlighted, I suspect, because that’s a technology the authors developed and they want to promote it, but it’s not directly relevant to the human health part.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/26/world/first-animal-doesnt-breathe-oxygen-scn-trnd/index.html
but in looking for additional articles to the first one, I found a 2010 article referring to a totally different metazoan that also lacked mitochondria. Is this just a factor of science over-hyping things, or was the previous discovery discounted?
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I posted about this in [chat], but what's relevant here is the qualifier "animal". The organism they just discovered is in the Kingdom Animalia, as opposed to being in Kingdom "who fucking knows". Both are in Domain Eukaryota, meaning they possess a cell with a nucleus and organelles (thus they aren't bacteria or archae, which are in Domain Prokaryota).
The organism in question here is in Phylum Cnidaria, and is thus a relative of jellyfish (which do have mitochondria in their cells!) that has adapted for a parasitic lifestyle inside a fish host, and thus they've eliminated the need for mitochondria. This is pretty common (the other organisms in Eukarya which don't have mitochondria are also internal parasites as well- Giardia and Monocercomonoides).
Bacteria are not animals.