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[The Good Place] Like a Wave Returning to the Ocean

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    RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Janet:
    Besides serving as a plot device, as a character has almost acted the same as an advanced AI coming to terms with it's sentience as in any sci-fi story.

    Her change of character can simply be part of her continued evolution

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    Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    Have we talked about how, you know, his name is Michael. As in, the sword of God, the Archangel.

    Nerding time! It's likely there will be some plot points or episodes that could undo my little theory here, but indulge me, won't you?

    I mused to my wife last night that, what if, all along, Michael is actually the Michael, as been running his little scam, studying the humans and trying to figure out why none have entered the real Good place in over 500 years. I imagine he's bemusedly incredulous that he didn't even have to bother changing his name and no one picked up on it.

    He's approached the higher ups, as it were, but, as we've seen, none of the other eternal beings seem overly concerned about the last 500 years. Suspecting shenanigans from the Bad Place, Michael infiltrates it, playing the part of a fledgling bumbling architect demon and, amusingly, they never question him or where he comes from. Being an eternal being himself, he bides his time in the Bad Place, looking for answers which don't come. He finds out that the Bad Place doesn't seem to know, and likely doesn't care, that no human has been to the Good Place in five centuries, so he's at a dead end. In the meantime, he creates the "neighborhood" of season one, with the cover story of having humans torture each other, when, in reality, his plan was just to find a convenient way to create a temporary pseudo good-place as a type of holding area for humans as he tries to work out his next move. Enter season one.

    Knowing he cannot reveal his true nature to our four when they "call him out" at the end of season one, Michael continues to play along with the same cover story he's been using on the Demons, as he feels an opportunity to discover the truth thanks to our four, but he can't blow his cover just yet. Being actually an angel, Michael becomes actually elated to find that both the good place and the bad place have gotten humans wrong all this time. If humans can be redeemed, even in death, that is a game changer for the afterlife. Such a revelation is likely to be just the thing needed to open the eyes of the celestial bureaucracy, and could likely prove that humans are fare more worthwhile than anyone believed.

    3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
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    ZonugalZonugal (He/Him) The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Have we talked about how, you know, his name is Michael. As in, the sword of God, the Archangel.

    Nerding time! It's likely there will be some plot points or episodes that could undo my little theory here, but indulge me, won't you?

    I mused to my wife last night that, what if, all along, Michael is actually the Michael, as been running his little scam, studying the humans and trying to figure out why none have entered the real Good place in over 500 years. I imagine he's bemusedly incredulous that he didn't even have to bother changing his name and no one picked up on it.

    He's approached the higher ups, as it were, but, as we've seen, none of the other eternal beings seem overly concerned about the last 500 years. Suspecting shenanigans from the Bad Place, Michael infiltrates it, playing the part of a fledgling bumbling architect demon and, amusingly, they never question him or where he comes from. Being an eternal being himself, he bides his time in the Bad Place, looking for answers which don't come. He finds out that the Bad Place doesn't seem to know, and likely doesn't care, that no human has been to the Good Place in five centuries, so he's at a dead end. In the meantime, he creates the "neighborhood" of season one, with the cover story of having humans torture each other, when, in reality, his plan was just to find a convenient way to create a temporary pseudo good-place as a type of holding area for humans as he tries to work out his next move. Enter season one.

    Knowing he cannot reveal his true nature to our four when they "call him out" at the end of season one, Michael continues to play along with the same cover story he's been using on the Demons, as he feels an opportunity to discover the truth thanks to our four, but he can't blow his cover just yet. Being actually an angel, Michael becomes actually elated to find that both the good place and the bad place have gotten humans wrong all this time. If humans can be redeemed, even in death, that is a game changer for the afterlife. Such a revelation is likely to be just the thing needed to open the eyes of the celestial bureaucracy, and could likely prove that humans are fare more worthwhile than anyone believed.

    Why wouldn't Judge Gen recognize the archangel Michael?

    Ross-Geller-Prime-Sig-A.jpg
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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Season 1 spoilers
    The name Michael was definitely used on purpose, but moreso to keep anyone from catching onto the season 1 twist.

    Javen on
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    Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Have we talked about how, you know, his name is Michael. As in, the sword of God, the Archangel.

    Nerding time! It's likely there will be some plot points or episodes that could undo my little theory here, but indulge me, won't you?

    I mused to my wife last night that, what if, all along, Michael is actually the Michael, as been running his little scam, studying the humans and trying to figure out why none have entered the real Good place in over 500 years. I imagine he's bemusedly incredulous that he didn't even have to bother changing his name and no one picked up on it.

    He's approached the higher ups, as it were, but, as we've seen, none of the other eternal beings seem overly concerned about the last 500 years. Suspecting shenanigans from the Bad Place, Michael infiltrates it, playing the part of a fledgling bumbling architect demon and, amusingly, they never question him or where he comes from. Being an eternal being himself, he bides his time in the Bad Place, looking for answers which don't come. He finds out that the Bad Place doesn't seem to know, and likely doesn't care, that no human has been to the Good Place in five centuries, so he's at a dead end. In the meantime, he creates the "neighborhood" of season one, with the cover story of having humans torture each other, when, in reality, his plan was just to find a convenient way to create a temporary pseudo good-place as a type of holding area for humans as he tries to work out his next move. Enter season one.

    Knowing he cannot reveal his true nature to our four when they "call him out" at the end of season one, Michael continues to play along with the same cover story he's been using on the Demons, as he feels an opportunity to discover the truth thanks to our four, but he can't blow his cover just yet. Being actually an angel, Michael becomes actually elated to find that both the good place and the bad place have gotten humans wrong all this time. If humans can be redeemed, even in death, that is a game changer for the afterlife. Such a revelation is likely to be just the thing needed to open the eyes of the celestial bureaucracy, and could likely prove that humans are fare more worthwhile than anyone believed.

    Why wouldn't Judge Gen recognize the archangel Michael?

    Any reason to think she would? She's a neutral arbiter, would she give a fig that some angel dude is moonlighting as a demon? I know some have speculated that she's God, but that's not a foregone conclusion. That said, maybe she does know and finds it entertaining (seeing how bored she is) and thus doesn't feel the need to blow his cover and is curious to see where these shenanigans lead.

    3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
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    JonBobJonBob Registered User regular
    I am 100% certain that overtly Judeo-Christian symbology will not enter into the picture any more than it already has with the general concept of a good and bad place. This has been pretty clear in both the text (Michael's explanation in the very first episode) and in everything the writers have said about the show.

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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I love this show. I think it may be my favorite television show I've ever seen. It's also the show I've spent the most time thinking about when I'm not watching it.

    I've got a million theories on how this is going to end and I couldn't tell you what is more or less likely, but at this point I trust Schur and Company to bring it home.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Surprise twist, Michael is actually Michael Schur, and this is all a meta-commentary on producing a tv show

    steam_sig.png
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Surprise twist, Michael is actually Michael Schur, and this is all a meta-commentary on producing a tv show

    IIRC yes, partially.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Surprise twist, Michael is actually Michael Schur, and this is all a meta-commentary on producing a tv show

    IIRC yes, partially.

    The first season in particular

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    JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Last night’s episode
    Even before the weird cliffhanger thing

    SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE

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    SneaksSneaks Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Okay, I had a feeling about what was going on in last week's episode, and this latest one cemented all of those feelings for me. Speculation!
    Throwing Chris into the experiment was a ruse to arrange for Michael and Janet to return him to the Bad Place, at which point they'd be swapped out for a Bad Janet and Vicki in the Michael suit we saw at the end of last season. Admittedly, the last time we saw a Bad Janet try to imitate a Good Janet, the former melted, but Good Janet wasn't capable of imitating other Janets at first either, but found a way eventually… right in front of Sean. I assume he went to Bad Janet's plunger and just went ham on it.

    Furthermore, this seems like exactly the approach Sean would take. He's a liar, of course, but he does genuinely believe the case he made to Judge Gen: humans are bad and dumb and can't change without extreme interference. Therefore, the humans aren't actually a threat to him. Only the architects of the aforementioned extreme interference—Michael and Janet—pose a threat. Remove them unnoticed, and the humans will simply defeat themselves…

    …But demons gotta demon, so we'll prod them a bit anyway. Enter Vicky. Not only is she one of the few demons who actually took to the experiment in it's original form (remember how much fun she had being "real" Eleanor?), but she knows Michael's entire playbook, because she forced him to sum it up for him in a series of memos… even if they were "one page, max, with pictures."

    Thus, Vicky gets Eleanor to torture Chidi and Brent by establishing stakes for the ethics lessons (which, in turn, tortures Eleanor; hat trick!) and Bad Janet helps facilitate Tahani spending time with John, the person explicitly sent there to torture her.

    Vicky's plan works pretty damn well, but Bad Janet's backfires. Tahani is still Tahani, but she's gained enough self-awareness to see herself in John, and she works out how to leverage it to benefit both of them. But it only works because Tahani has changed, however incrementally, and because Sean's thesis is that humans can't really change, he wouldn't have predicted this.

    Meanwhile, the real Michael and our Janet aren't taking all this lying down. I assume the hooded figure has gotta be Michael (or, maybe, that Jason actually did open a jar of peanut butter for Michael).

    One of the other things that made me feel more sure about this is that—what with the tease of the hooded figure—a reveal is probably coming in the next episode or two. Before this episode, this felt like the sort of twist a show would spend way more time setting up before knocking down, and that's simply not been The Good Place's modus operandi since the first season ended. Schur and Company know that we got wise to their shit after that (because, well, they let us), so the hits started coming way faster after that.
    God, I love this show. Even if I'm 100% wrong. Hell, maybe even more if I'm wrong.

    Sneaks on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Janet:
    Besides the obvious "just punch him!" gambit and the red (RED!) hair streaks, just watch how Janet reacts while Tahani's speaking. She looks increasingly frustrated and annoyed as the episode goes on and Tahani actually makes headway.

    Speculation:
    The hooded figure is the real Michael. I say that because Vicky seems to be pretty good at imitating him, and that could lead to a showdown of the Michaels. I need a Michael showdown. Give Ted Danson another Emmy!

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    SleepSleep Registered User regular
    I think janet is going full deity. Like she's been rebooted enough times and she's had to deal with a bunch of shit good Janet's aren't supposed to deal with. I think the constant annoyance is legit. She's self actualizing and kinda getting sick of all the hyper complex requests everyone is making. I think janet realizing she's the most powerful outsider of the bunch is gonna be key to the wrap up on the series.

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    WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Man, it really speaks to the quality of this show that 1) I have no idea (or at least, lots of seemingly equally-probable ideas)
    who the hooded figure is

    but that 2) whatever the answer is, I'm certain it's going to be executed better than I could imagine.

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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I hope that on some level that ending is the
    full on personification of Death or something wild like that
    .

    Because I'm sure they could do it.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Random left field guess on ending, that just popped into head as a joke, but this show, you never know
    It's Blake Bortles

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
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    SorceSorce Not ThereRegistered User regular
    Random left field guess on ending, that just popped into head as a joke, but this show, you never know
    It's Blake Bortles
    Related to this
    Jason somehow had a hand in the current QB getting his start in JAX.

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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Random left field guess on ending, that just popped into head as a joke, but this show, you never know
    It's Blake Bortles

    I had the same thought, lol.

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    SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    Random left field guess on ending, that just popped into head as a joke, but this show, you never know
    It's Blake Bortles
    Genuinely thought this was going to be Jason's lava rock

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    WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Another possibility:
    Whoever it is, it's Nick Offerman.

    Chidi theory:
    Just rewatched the S3 finale, and I'm starting to wonder whether Chidi's memory actually was wiped. Reasons:

    1) We don't see it happen. Michael says he needs some time to prepare, then we get the tear-jerking video, then Michael walks up and takes Chidi out of our sight.
    2) Chidi chillaxing doesn't make ANY sense. We've never seen him that relaxed! It feels like Chidi trying to do the kind of thing he would imagine himself to do in a paradise where his memory has been wiped, but utterly failing to understand his own personality.
    3) I feel like at this point, it's almost obvious that Michael and Janet have been swapped out, and also that Michael saw it coming. Right after the video call where they show the skinsuit, Michael has his breakdown and forces Eleanor to take over. This was his way to make sure that when he was replaced, his replacement wouldn't be in charge of the whole experiment.

    So my not-that-likely theory is that Michael knows he's going to be replaced, but isn't sure who else the Bad Place might kidnap. He knows that they won't be able to kidnap any of the actual test subjects or residents, because they'll get caught (see:Linda) but that he, Janet, and the Soul Squad might all be targets. So what does he do? He creates a sleeper agent.

    Michael tells Chidi what he fears is going to happen, and explains that it will be Chidi's job to suss out the Bad Place intruders without arousing their suspicion. Michael knows they won't try to replace Chidi, because that would spoil the entire purpose of sending Simone to the neighborhood in the first place. Furthermore, no demon besides Michael has demonstrated a sufficient knowledge of moral philosophy to credibly impersonate Chidi, so the others would spot an impostor immediately.

    So this was the real purpose of Chidi's visit to Eleanor's office -- he's trying to tell who has been replaced. When he sees the steps that are being taken to supposedly torture him, he suspects that either Eleanor or Michael has been replaced, so he goes to her office and floats the theory that he's being punished for something, that something is wrong with him or the neighborhood. Eleanor's reaction more-or-less confirms for him that she's the real Eleanor, and Michael's reaction (which I'll note was a very effective con job, something Michael has been shown to be getting increasingly bad at since he's been improving as a person) gives Chidi something to chew on.

    I'm gonna be watching the next few episodes to see if Chidi is taking any sort of steps to test any of the others. Jason is the obvious next choice for him, but God only knows how anyone would begin to psychologically test Jason, LOL.

    WACriminal on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Well, Schur did say that (not really spoilery, but just in case)
    there will be guest stars this season, with Jamil saying one is "epic,"

    So maybe!

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    schussschuss Registered User regular
    Are we sure the hooded figure isn't Derek?

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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    At this point I almost don’t want them to introduce new characters if they are going to be significant.

    I’m fine with minor roles and things like that, but I don’t want some new character swooping in to be part of the main plot. I’m here to ride this out with team cockroach and bawl my damn eyes out with how they end this.

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    SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    WACriminal wrote: »
    Another possibility:
    Whoever it is, it's Nick Offerman.

    Chidi theory:
    Just rewatched the S3 finale, and I'm starting to wonder whether Chidi's memory actually was wiped. Reasons:

    1) We don't see it happen. Michael says he needs some time to prepare, then we get the tear-jerking video, then Michael walks up and takes Chidi out of our sight.
    2) Chidi chillaxing doesn't make ANY sense. We've never seen him that relaxed! It feels like Chidi trying to do the kind of thing he would imagine himself to do in a paradise where his memory has been wiped, but utterly failing to understand his own personality.
    3) I feel like at this point, it's almost obvious that Michael and Janet have been swapped out, and also that Michael saw it coming. Right after the video call where they show the skinsuit, Michael has his breakdown and forces Eleanor to take over. This was his way to make sure that when he was replaced, his replacement wouldn't be in charge of the whole experiment.

    So my not-that-likely theory is that Michael knows he's going to be replaced, but isn't sure who else the Bad Place might kidnap. He knows that they won't be able to kidnap any of the actual test subjects or residents, because they'll get caught (see:Linda) but that he, Janet, and the Soul Squad might all be targets. So what does he do? He creates a sleeper agent.

    Michael tells Chidi what he fears is going to happen, and explains that it will be Chidi's job to suss out the Bad Place intruders without arousing their suspicion. Michael knows they won't try to replace Chidi, because that would spoil the entire purpose of sending Simone to the neighborhood in the first place. Furthermore, no demon besides Michael has demonstrated a sufficient knowledge of moral philosophy to credibly impersonate Chidi, so the others would spot an impostor immediately.

    So this was the real purpose of Chidi's visit to Eleanor's office -- he's trying to tell who has been replaced. When he sees the steps that are being taken to supposedly torture him, he suspects that either Eleanor or Michael has been replaced, so he goes to her office and floats the theory that he's being punished for something, that something is wrong with him or the neighborhood. Eleanor's reaction more-or-less confirms for him that she's the real Eleanor, and Michael's reaction (which I'll note was a very effective con job, something Michael has been shown to be getting increasingly bad at since he's been improving as a person) gives Chidi something to chew on.

    I'm gonna be watching the next few episodes to see if Chidi is taking any sort of steps to test any of the others. Jason is the obvious next choice for him, but God only knows how anyone would begin to psychologically test Jason, LOL.
    I don't think chidi is a good enough actor to be able to make out with Simone while Eleanor was watching without doubling over with a stomachache

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    DedmanWalkinDedmanWalkin Registered User regular
    I have always wondered why Michael didn't just tell the judge that Mark Harmon wasn't getting into the Good Place.

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    HeirHeir Ausitn, TXRegistered User regular
    I'm glad to see some of these theories. Frankly I've found the season kind of lackluster so far, but I realize that I probably haven't been paying enough attention.

    camo_sig2.png
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    Watching season 3 again, in the second episode Chidi is at one point super tired and starts his lesson at looks at the board and it says "Palto" and I just burst out laughing.

    there is something really relatable about a philosopher looking at what they wrote, seeing it is "Palto", and deciding they should really go to bed now.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    my theories
    the person at the end looked kind of like the reaper outfit, but also maybe a judges robe. This got me thinking, so far the judge has really only been interested in being entertained. WHat if the Judge had been replaced and that's why no one was getting into Heaven. THe point system is messed up but what exactly is the judge for then? I think it's the real judge coming.

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    SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Hey jason, make an insight check

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I have not laughed that hard at the start of an episode (or anyhting) for a while.
    Also, hey you all called it on Janet! Well played. Also: Contents: 1 Glenn

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Sleep wrote: »
    Hey jason, make an insight check
    See he's not dumb he's just impulsive !

    King Riptor on
    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Make sure you get all of the goo. :lol:

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    Sir LandsharkSir Landshark resting shark face Registered User regular
    I have not laughed that hard at the start of an episode (or anyhting) for a while.
    Also, hey you all called it on Janet! Well played. Also: Contents: 1 Glenn

    That opening was very reminiscent of one of my favorite PA strips

    https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/05/26/the-unhorse

    Please consider the environment before printing this post.
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    WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    OK wait no now I don't know what to think godDAMN you Michael Schur.

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    MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    2 things killed me this episode
    'Janet' describing how she ended the drawn horse. Which also should've been another warning sign. Janet wouldn't seriously describe butchering a horse like that.

    Michael's description of his demon form and being somewhat self-conscious of it was very good.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
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    HeirHeir Ausitn, TXRegistered User regular
    Matev wrote: »
    2 things killed me this episode
    'Janet' describing how she ended the drawn horse. Which also should've been another warning sign. Janet wouldn't seriously describe butchering a horse like that.

    Michael's description of his demon form and being somewhat self-conscious of it was very good.

    So....Michael:
    He could still technically be Not Michael right? Like, the guy from the Bad Place wasn't actually a plant right?

    I'm so confused.

    camo_sig2.png
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    Sir LandsharkSir Landshark resting shark face Registered User regular
    Yeah a few things are bothering me
    Garth presumably was being sincere in his desire to foil the bad place plan, but he made zero mention of bad Janet. Ok fine he didn’t know about that part, but then where is Vicki in the Michael suit? Why go to all that trouble and not attempt to swap out Michael? Seems like the only thing that makes sense is that it’s still Vicki and she offered to suicide in order to preserve bad Janet’s cover.

    How is the neighborhood still running with good Janet marbleized?

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    TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Yeah a few things are bothering me
    Garth presumably was being sincere in his desire to foil the bad place plan, but he made zero mention of bad Janet. Ok fine he didn’t know about that part, but then where is Vicki in the Michael suit? Why go to all that trouble and not attempt to swap out Michael? Seems like the only thing that makes sense is that it’s still Vicki and she offered to suicide in order to preserve bad Janet’s cover.

    How is the neighborhood still running with good Janet marbleized?
    I don't think they'd pull a repeat of the same twist like that. My money's on Vicki using the Michael suit to try and bamboozle Jason (and maybe Janet) during the rescue attempt.

    Also, Glenn didn't know the plan. All he knew was that a) there is a duplicate Michael suit, and b) Shawn was happy when the demon spy got sent back. He extrapolated that Michael was the plant.

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Yeah a few things are bothering me
    Garth presumably was being sincere in his desire to foil the bad place plan, but he made zero mention of bad Janet. Ok fine he didn’t know about that part, but then where is Vicki in the Michael suit? Why go to all that trouble and not attempt to swap out Michael? Seems like the only thing that makes sense is that it’s still Vicki and she offered to suicide in order to preserve bad Janet’s cover.

    How is the neighborhood still running with good Janet marbleized?
    I don't think they'd pull a repeat of the same twist like that. My money's on Vicki using the Michael suit to try and bamboozle Jason (and maybe Janet) during the rescue attempt.

    Also, Glenn didn't know the plan. All he knew was that a) there is a duplicate Michael suit, and b) Shawn was happy when the demon spy got sent back. He extrapolated that Michael was the plant.
    If Glenn is telling the truth, he personally witnessed Vicki being set up with the suit, and she has no reason to think the humans will visit the bad place. Also, Janet gooped him to keep him from talking, even though he knew nothing about her. After being revealed, she was still angry at him for being a traitor. If he was a traitor who was mistakenly accusing Good Michael, then Bad Janet wouldn't have had much reason to take the risk of silencing him.

    Zek on
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