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[The Good Place] Season Four Is the Final Season

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Posts

  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Nah
    I think it finally hit him how shitty hes been. He was legitimately freaking out

    Thats not what I'm saying though.

    In the context that this is generally a show that assumes that humans can grow and change then yes, he was about to say "I'm sorry"

    In the context of the show that this is a case being built for or against humanity the phrase "I'm sor..." wouldn't hold up as any kind of evidence in afterlife court against a demon lawyer.
    From what we've seen of the point system up to now, it seems like they're able to discern intention.

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Bad news: new episodes for two more weeks, then the show goes on hiatus until Jan. 30.

    Good news: Jan 30 will show the last three episodes back to back, with a post-show with Seth Meyers interviewing the cast.

    Episode titles for the next two episodes (doesn't spoil anything other than the fact that I have no goddamn clue where this is going):
    "The Funeral to End all Funerals," and "The Answer."

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    I thought there was 14 episodes this season (7 left)?

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    "Like Facebook. Or America."

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  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Bad Opinion Haver Registered User regular
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Nah
    I think it finally hit him how shitty hes been. He was legitimately freaking out

    Thats not what I'm saying though.

    In the context that this is generally a show that assumes that humans can grow and change then yes, he was about to say "I'm sorry"

    In the context of the show that this is a case being built for or against humanity the phrase "I'm sor..." wouldn't hold up as any kind of evidence in afterlife court against a demon lawyer.
    Doesn't work in literal magic court.

    They could tell what Mindy intended to do with the money before she died so they could easily tell if Brent was being sincere or not. It's just a timing on intent vs effect happening.

  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Jeedan wrote: »
    Given the medium place you could probably do a whole bit on whether Brent's intent to apologize sincerely counts or not when the clock ran out midway through the action.

    I don't think they'll go there, just kind of interesting
    We have no idea if he was about to say "I sorry if you feel that way" or something like that though

    Nah
    I think it finally hit him how shitty hes been. He was legitimately freaking out

    Thats not what I'm saying though.

    In the context that this is generally a show that assumes that humans can grow and change then yes, he was about to say "I'm sorry"

    In the context of the show that this is a case being built for or against humanity the phrase "I'm sor..." wouldn't hold up as any kind of evidence in afterlife court against a demon lawyer.
    Doesn't work in literal magic court.

    They could tell what Mindy intended to do with the money before she died so they could easily tell if Brent was being sincere or not. It's just a timing on intent vs effect happening.
    If they wanted to go that way there is plenty of space. The words he would have used to apologize might have been terrible. This creates an exact Mindy situation where intent gets counted and you argue execution would have cost a lot of points.

    Albino BunnySneaks
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I think there's definitely going to be a parallel between Mindy and Brent. The setup is too perfectly analogous not to.

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  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think there's definitely going to be a parallel between Mindy and Brent. The setup is too perfectly analogous not to.

    I dunno. Maybe?
    I mean, is a single genuine apology really the same as "fully intending to give up all your money to charity and dedicate the rest of your life to helping people?"

    Actually, with what we've learned since we first met Mindy, that whole thing seems kind of odd to me. If even someone like Doug Forcett, who spent more than 2/3 of his life actively living as a happiness pump, wasn't anywhere near the Good Place, I'm not seeing how Mindy's half life of (relative) debauchery could possibly be compensated by living half a life of positivity. The only way that works is if the Points System somehow counted only all the good points that such a charity might generate while passing off all the negative points that the charity inevitably earned (as a human-made entity, prone to human failings), probably onto Mindy's sister (or whoever it was who started it). In which case, if Brent's last-second realization suggested he was about to turn a corner and become a vastly different person, then okay I guess he probably earned a bunch of points?

    And now thinking about all of this has lead me to think about a huge untouched subset of people that are utterly and incomprehensibly screwed over by any system like this: children.

    I mean, holy crap, no child is ever getting into the Good Place. Even just "being born" probably costs a big ol' drain of points due to the financial burden you're putting on your parents. And anyone who wants into the Good Place has to get millions of points? Nobody's getting to that level unless they've reached at least middle age, probably later when you consider how monstrous most teenagers are. I mean yeah it's kinda glossed over in that "nobody's gotten into the Good Place in 500 years" thing, but I don't see how any child can ever have gotten in.

    I have to assume the reason the show hasn't brought this up is because it's so unbearably bleak and there's no good way to address it.

    Zilla360
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Wait a minute, I just realized something.
    What IS up with Mindy?

    Mindy is definitely not better than the droves of people that have gotten into the Bad Place. If we believe that she is really in the Medium Place, how can we believe that Doug Fawcett was going to end up in the Bad Place,

    Mindy’s whole thing is that she literally balanced out to the exact supposed meridian between good place and bad place, right?

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    Wait a minute, I just realized something.
    What IS up with Mindy?

    Mindy is definitely not better than the droves of people that have gotten into the Bad Place. If we believe that she is really in the Medium Place, how can we believe that Doug Fawcett was going to end up in the Bad Place,

    Mindy’s whole thing is that she literally balanced out to the exact supposed meridian between good place and bad place, right?
    Mindy's thing is that she genuinely came up with a way to help a massive number of people but could never implement it. And was otherwise a selfish jerk.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Not sure why we're spoiling stuff from last season, but what the Bad Place, let's keep it up...
    I've always had an issue with the main argument against Doug Forcett.

    That his point total didn't matter anyway, because he knew about the point system.

    Because AFAIR, he didn't *know*. He guessed, during a drug binge, and then decided to believe, and follow that principle through life.

    That'd be like saying anyone who follows their religious text, and the teachings of the clergy, won't get into heaven if those are the criteria, because they followed the rules on how to get into heaven.

    I mean, if he intentionally pierced the veil to find out how to get into heaven, and with such foreknowledge, gamed the system, that's one thing.

    But what Doug did, was essentially have an epiphany, then have faith, and followed through. How is that different to any convert to any religion ever?

    HeirPailryderCelestialBadgerGreenZilla360
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Not sure why we're spoiling stuff from last season, but what the Bad Place, let's keep it up...
    I've always had an issue with the main argument against Doug Forcett.

    That his point total didn't matter anyway, because he knew about the point system.

    Because AFAIR, he didn't *know*. He guessed, during a drug binge, and then decided to believe, and follow that principle through life.

    That'd be like saying anyone who follows their religious text, and the teachings of the clergy, won't get into heaven if those are the criteria, because they followed the rules on how to get into heaven.

    I mean, if he intentionally pierced the veil to find out how to get into heaven, and with such foreknowledge, gamed the system, that's one thing.

    But what Doug did, was essentially have an epiphany, then have faith, and followed through. How is that different to any convert to any religion ever?

    The point of the show is that the system is bullshit.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    God I've never had such anxiety throughout an episode of this show before.
    From the moment Simone pulled out her conspiracy board, I felt the wheels coming off in my brain.

    This show is so good, and I have no idea where they can possible go for 5 more episodes.

    Heir
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Not sure why we're spoiling stuff from last season, but what the Bad Place, let's keep it up...
    I've always had an issue with the main argument against Doug Forcett.

    That his point total didn't matter anyway, because he knew about the point system.

    Because AFAIR, he didn't *know*. He guessed, during a drug binge, and then decided to believe, and follow that principle through life.

    That'd be like saying anyone who follows their religious text, and the teachings of the clergy, won't get into heaven if those are the criteria, because they followed the rules on how to get into heaven.

    I mean, if he intentionally pierced the veil to find out how to get into heaven, and with such foreknowledge, gamed the system, that's one thing.

    But what Doug did, was essentially have an epiphany, then have faith, and followed through. How is that different to any convert to any religion ever?
    i don't remember there being anything about him knowing about it. It was just that even as good as he was there were still unintended consequences.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Not sure why we're spoiling stuff from last season, but what the Bad Place, let's keep it up...
    I've always had an issue with the main argument against Doug Forcett.

    That his point total didn't matter anyway, because he knew about the point system.

    Because AFAIR, he didn't *know*. He guessed, during a drug binge, and then decided to believe, and follow that principle through life.

    That'd be like saying anyone who follows their religious text, and the teachings of the clergy, won't get into heaven if those are the criteria, because they followed the rules on how to get into heaven.

    I mean, if he intentionally pierced the veil to find out how to get into heaven, and with such foreknowledge, gamed the system, that's one thing.

    But what Doug did, was essentially have an epiphany, then have faith, and followed through. How is that different to any convert to any religion ever?
    i don't remember there being anything about him knowing about it. It was just that even as good as he was there were still unintended consequences.
    He didn’t *know* but he believed that getting into heaven worked on a point system. That he was accidentally correct doesn’t really matter from the perspective of whether or not intent matters for weighing out someone’s goodness or, in this case, their good place eligibility.

  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Not sure why we're spoiling stuff from last season, but what the Bad Place, let's keep it up...
    I've always had an issue with the main argument against Doug Forcett.

    That his point total didn't matter anyway, because he knew about the point system.

    Because AFAIR, he didn't *know*. He guessed, during a drug binge, and then decided to believe, and follow that principle through life.

    That'd be like saying anyone who follows their religious text, and the teachings of the clergy, won't get into heaven if those are the criteria, because they followed the rules on how to get into heaven.

    I mean, if he intentionally pierced the veil to find out how to get into heaven, and with such foreknowledge, gamed the system, that's one thing.

    But what Doug did, was essentially have an epiphany, then have faith, and followed through. How is that different to any convert to any religion ever?
    i don't remember there being anything about him knowing about it. It was just that even as good as he was there were still unintended consequences.
    He didn’t *know* but he believed that getting into heaven worked on a point system. That he was accidentally correct doesn’t really matter from the perspective of whether or not intent matters for weighing out someone’s goodness or, in this case, their good place eligibility.
    He was still getting points its just that he started so late at 25 or whatever he would never make the threshold before he died.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Terrendos wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think there's definitely going to be a parallel between Mindy and Brent. The setup is too perfectly analogous not to.

    I dunno. Maybe?
    I mean, is a single genuine apology really the same as "fully intending to give up all your money to charity and dedicate the rest of your life to helping people?"

    Actually, with what we've learned since we first met Mindy, that whole thing seems kind of odd to me. If even someone like Doug Forcett, who spent more than 2/3 of his life actively living as a happiness pump, wasn't anywhere near the Good Place, I'm not seeing how Mindy's half life of (relative) debauchery could possibly be compensated by living half a life of positivity. The only way that works is if the Points System somehow counted only all the good points that such a charity might generate while passing off all the negative points that the charity inevitably earned (as a human-made entity, prone to human failings), probably onto Mindy's sister (or whoever it was who started it). In which case, if Brent's last-second realization suggested he was about to turn a corner and become a vastly different person, then okay I guess he probably earned a bunch of points?

    And now thinking about all of this has lead me to think about a huge untouched subset of people that are utterly and incomprehensibly screwed over by any system like this: children.

    I mean, holy crap, no child is ever getting into the Good Place. Even just "being born" probably costs a big ol' drain of points due to the financial burden you're putting on your parents. And anyone who wants into the Good Place has to get millions of points? Nobody's getting to that level unless they've reached at least middle age, probably later when you consider how monstrous most teenagers are. I mean yeah it's kinda glossed over in that "nobody's gotten into the Good Place in 500 years" thing, but I don't see how any child can ever have gotten in.

    I have to assume the reason the show hasn't brought this up is because it's so unbearably bleak and there's no good way to address it.

    It's certainly not exactly the same. But it's thematically very similar, and they cut it the way they did for a reason, because nothing on this show is accidental.

    I could be wrong, but I don't think so. That said, I have no idea what they'll do with the parallel, just that I think it's significant.

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  • SorceSorce Registered User regular
    We're also going to have to see what happened with
    Tahani and Jason trying to get the other two subjects.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Sorce wrote: »
    We're also going to have to see what happened with
    Tahani and Jason trying to get the other two subjects.

    Oh geez.
    That's gonna be next episode. They're going to do that whole thing where they go back in time and follow a different track up to the cliffhanger point so they get another week of tension.

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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I know people have very high expectations of the writing of this show, but I really think they introduced Mindy before they had come up with the "points are totally broken" plotline, and there isn't going to be a satisfying explanation of why she's the best human to exist in centuries. If they want to explain it they'll need to come up with some shenanigans retroactively.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I dunno, I thought it tracked ok. The idea she came up turned out to be mind-blowingly beneficial when put into practice, and she was just kind of average-level asshole otherwise. We don't have a good window into points weighting, so they can handwave it reasonably.

    anyone someone else's theory about season 4 that resonated with me
    The core group are gradually becoming the people they were imitating/thought they were in Season 1
    Jason's intuition and natural empathy are coming to the fore and he's learning to be less impulsive, bringing him closer to JianYu
    Eleanor is now spending all her time doing things for the good of humanity
    Tahani's grand social gestures are designed to bring people together, rather than make herself look good
    Chidi was always a good guy but things like punching brent, or trying to pull brent out of the hole even when Simone disagreed, represents a new level of action and decisiveness

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    tynic wrote: »
    I dunno, I thought it tracked ok. The idea she came up turned out to be mind-blowingly beneficial when put into practice, and she was just kind of average-level asshole otherwise. We don't have a good window into points weighting, so they can handwave it reasonably.

    anyone someone else's theory about season 4 that resonated with me
    The core group are gradually becoming the people they were imitating/thought they were in Season 1
    Jason's intuition and natural empathy are coming to the fore and he's learning to be less impulsive, bringing him closer to JianYu
    Eleanor is now spending all her time doing things for the good of humanity
    Tahani's grand social gestures are designed to bring people together, rather than make herself look good
    Chidi was always a good guy but things like punching brent, or trying to pull brent out of the hole even when Simone disagreed, represents a new level of action and decisiveness
    jason ending up being the party's monk is literally my favorite joke. The best part is that I think he's just gotten used to wearing the robe.

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  • SneaksSneaks Registered User regular
    edited 1:19PM
    Zek wrote: »
    I know people have very high expectations of the writing of this show, but I really think they introduced Mindy before they had come up with the "points are totally broken" plotline, and there isn't going to be a satisfying explanation of why she's the best human to exist in centuries. If they want to explain it they'll need to come up with some shenanigans retroactively.

    I don't agree. In fact, though they didn't namecheck Mindy specifically while Michael was coming to the conclusion that unintended consequences were driving down the point totals of all of humanity (towards the end of last season, IIRC), her status exposes that exact flaw in the system.

    Mindy unintentionally gamed the system (which is the only way to game the system since intentionally trying to game it would constitute corrupted motivations). She got the points for designing her "perfect" charity, but because she didn't (read: couldn't) actually enact it herself, she's shielded from all of the negative points brought on by actually having to do anything in the real world. She would've tried, so the positive points apply, but she didn't (personally) fail to execute it perfectly, so the negative points don't apply. (Instead, they apply to Mindy's family, who found her plan and then did all the work, and are headed to the Bad Place for their trouble.)

    Mindy's in the Medium Place because—according to the system—her untimely death makes her the only person ever for which "it's the thought that counts" is actually a true axiom.

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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    The podcast confirmed that Brent
    Was going to say I'm Sorry and sincerely mean it, and also sent apologies for any ambiguity.

  • SneaksSneaks Registered User regular
    edited 1:29PM
    Veevee wrote: »
    The podcast confirmed that Brent
    Was going to say I'm Sorry and sincerely mean it, and also sent apologies for any ambiguity.

    But while he was definitely going to mean it, he may have also ended up completely botching it. But that doesn't matter now. The experiment cutoff means that potential negative points for apologizing in a mean, racist way that's meant to be sincere don't count, because Brent didn't actually apologize; Brent Norwalk is still Mindy St. Claire, in that they're exposing the same flaws in the system.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    So I thought about it and the point system is broken from birth

    A child is born and immediately places a financial and emotional burden on their family so the baby loses points immediately.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    I think the whole 'how did Mindy get into the Medium Place' is overthinking it quite a bit.

    It makes for a better gag that the plans Mindy drew up were so incredibly good that even the negative unintended consequences were completely overshadowed by how amazing it was and how much it helped everybody.

    tynicTofystedeth
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    I think the whole 'how did Mindy get into the Medium Place' is overthinking it quite a bit.

    It makes for a better gag that the plans Mindy drew up were so incredibly good that even the negative unintended consequences were completely overshadowed by how amazing it was and how much it helped everybody.

    Yeah basically she end of Scarfaced a charity plan

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    I think the whole 'how did Mindy get into the Medium Place' is overthinking it quite a bit.

    It makes for a better gag that the plans Mindy drew up were so incredibly good that even the negative unintended consequences were completely overshadowed by how amazing it was and how much it helped everybody.

    Yeah basically she end of Scarfaced a charity plan

    Mindy wishes she had that much cocaine.

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    So I thought about it and the point system is broken from birth

    A child is born and immediately places a financial and emotional burden on their family so the baby loses points immediately.

    I thought they touched on that at some point.

  • Sir LandsharkSir Landshark resting shark face Registered User regular
    Didn’t they say no one has gotten into the Good Place in 500 years? So Mindy’s plan would have to have been better than Lincoln freeing the slaves, development of the polio vaccine, etc

    I don’t think it’s a massive plot hole though. Maybe the plan really was that good.

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  • SorceSorce Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    I think the whole 'how did Mindy get into the Medium Place' is overthinking it quite a bit.

    It makes for a better gag that the plans Mindy drew up were so incredibly good that even the negative unintended consequences were completely overshadowed by how amazing it was and how much it helped everybody.

    Yeah basically she end of Scarfaced a charity plan

    Mindy wishes she had that much cocaine.
    She did.

    Once.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited 2:24PM
    Mindy's big good deed was writing the plan. Basically she was a shit hole fir a long time and was headed to the bad place. In one night she designed a charity that would help the whole world. Massive point gain. Then she immediately died. However someone found the plan and enacted it. That person ate all the negative unintended consequences of merely existing in the time frame of implementing the plan. Mindy gets credit for all of the good because they wouldn't have had the idea for all the good without Mindy coming up with the idea first. Basically it only worked out for Mindy because she died immediately and never actually went about implementing her idea. If she'd sat around for a few days the unintended consequences would have stacked up and put her so far back in the hole she wouldn't have been an anomaly. She would have gone straight to the bad place like everyone else. She basically got around the rule and got to keep gaining points after she died, but without the chance to lose points during that time frame.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Sorce wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    I think the whole 'how did Mindy get into the Medium Place' is overthinking it quite a bit.

    It makes for a better gag that the plans Mindy drew up were so incredibly good that even the negative unintended consequences were completely overshadowed by how amazing it was and how much it helped everybody.

    Yeah basically she end of Scarfaced a charity plan

    Mindy wishes she had that much cocaine.
    She did.

    Once.

    Well twice. Presumably the OD that killed her then the duffle bag from Janet

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  • SneaksSneaks Registered User regular
    Presumably the OD that killed her then the duffle bag from Janet
    It's academic, I suppose, but she didn't OD. She was electrocuted by the third rail. Easy mistake, though. She expected to OD.

    "Not the type of rail I thought was gonna kill me, to be honest."

    chrono_travellerKing Riptor
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