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[Pokemon] SE++ League in planning, yo! Page 95 or OP, yo!

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Posts

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Yeah I've gotten pretty much no use outta sucker punch on showdown.
    non-stab dark isn't very useful offensively

    Sucker Punch is super useful for specific scenarios, and cutting out the ones that are just "oh Jesus, Aegislash is on the field"

    You want Sucker Punch for if your Golisopod sticks around for more than one turn and has the chance for a sweep. If the opponent brings out a Celesteela expecting First Impressions and eats Liquidation+Aqua Jet, or somebody leaves out Alakazam or Weavil against First Impressions, they then reasonably expect that they can bring in other big hitters that can outspeed Golisopod and wreck it with SE special attacks

    Like when I whooped this one Celesteela, somebody brought out their Alolan Raichu. Aqua Jet wasn't gonna kill that thing, no sir.

    Sucker Punch basically made it explode into mist.

    I like having priority moves super effective against psychics and ghosts that are still good after the first turn. More coverage!

    dN0T6ur.png
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Is shadow sneak on Mimikyu better than shadow claw? Does the priority make up for the low power?
    I don't think Mimikyu is fast enough to not care about priority. Especially if you're investing in Disguise + Swords Dance and are reluctant to switch out of something faster comes in. Also Play Rough does a lot more damage than Shadow Claw if you just need a no-nonsense neutral damaging attack.

    The question, at least for me, is what you put in the last slot after Swords Dance/Play Rough/Shadow Sneak. You can just do Shadow Claw there anyway for higher neutral STAB against steel and poison types (ghost + fairy is super great neutral coverage), or you could go for situational super-effective coverage from Wood Hammer or Leech Life, or you could hedge your sweeper-aspiring bets and go for status like Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave.

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    I could care less about IVs

    K! I'll be available after 5 PM EST today

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  • DrDinosaurDrDinosaur Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    DrDinosaur wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Is shadow sneak on Mimikyu better than shadow claw? Does the priority make up for the low power?

    What set are you thinking? My (story) Mimikyu has Shadow Sneak / Play Rough / Swords Dance / Shadow Claw, and it works well enough.

    Sneak, Swords Dance, Play Rough, Leech Life. Holding a life orb. He's designed to set up a swords dance (or more than one if they give him a turn) and then sweep

    Personally I'd go with Sneak in that situation. You get decent coverage between Play Rough and Leech Life, so having the priority move in your back pocket seems like a better option than just another coverage move.

  • Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    Mimikyu
    Lifeorb
    z-splash
    substitute
    play rough
    shadow sneak

    Be the biggest asshole

    p0a2ody6sqnt.jpg
  • Moth 13Moth 13 Registered User regular
    For players with XY and/or ORAS, Genesect is available by paper card code obtainable at your local Gamestop/EB Games. This concludes on November 24th, so pick up your code today!

    @Wyborn , today's the 28th. Should probably replace that section with the Magearna and Meloetta stuff.

    WybornAndy Joe
  • Theodore FlooseveltTheodore Floosevelt proud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelo dorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered User regular
    this never would've happened in a silverwind OP

    f2ojmwh3geue.png
    SilverWindWybornDaypigeonAndy JoeBahamutZEROKwoarudarunia106Frem
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Wyvern wrote: »
    Enlong wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Enlong wrote: »
    Wait, First Impression has priority? Well, that changes things a fair bit.

    I think it actually has double priority, so it beats stuff like mach punch

    Oh!

    So it's a bug-type Fake-out with more than double the power and no flinching.

    Ok. Yeah, i can now totally see why people swear by it.
    Yeah, what I was going to say in that abandoned draft was "First Impression is probably worth keeping even in rain, because it's still 50% stronger than Aqua Jet after the rain boost and it lets you mix up your priority game more." But then I second-guessed myself and didn't post it, because maybe Wyborn saw people switch out of Golisopod so often that priority on the first turn rarely mattered.

    I mean, I figure the overall calculus is:
    -Aqua Jet is a must on every set, obviously.
    -I still think First Impression is probably a must unless I'm way off.
    -Liquidate is a must in a rain team, but optional otherwise.
    -Leech Life is probably a better high-BP, non-limited STAB outside of rain, because of healing. Although maybe that's wrong, because otherwise you can mix up First Impression vs. Liquidate on your first turn in? And water has better neutral coverage too...
    -Sucker Punch is a solid priority option for stuff that resists water, but it's probably less good in rain because neutral Aqua Jet becomes substantially stronger.

    I keep coming back to "First Impression, Aqua Jet, plus two of the other three". Dropping First Impression isn't really something that occurred to me as a serious option. But if you take First Impression/Aqua Jet/Liquidate as a given for rain, then the last slot becomes more awkward, because if you take Leech Life for the healing then you have the worst coverage spread possible. But then I wasn't sure how many meta-relevant pokemon resist both water and bug. Bug is already neutral on grass-ghost and grass-steel. And a lot of tanky/supporty things aren't guaranteed to trigger Sucker Punch anyway.

    It's tricky, but it's also partially down to being willing to say "Well, Golisopod can't kill literally everything and that's fine"

    It just comes close

    First Impressions is an amazing move, and if Bug were a better attacking type I'd call it the best one it has, but it's Goli's signature and everyone expects it on that first turn. You can almost guarantee that if the enemy has the option then they will switch in something to resist First Impressions (unless you outpredict them). I've run into a ton of teams that carried Celesteela, and Celes walls Goli completely unless Goli's packing Liquidation (in which case, Celes switching into Liquidation can be finished off with Aqua Jet every time unless Celes has a lot of defensive investment plus Leftovers).

    The big problem with First Impressions in a vacuum is that it's so scary against Pokemon weak to it that leaving them in against Goli is just unconscionable. And Bug is terrible as an attacking type, so there's always tons of options to bring in against it.

    I'd never leave First Impressions off, though. What it does hit, just, mwa. Perfect. Like a train.

    My perspective on Goli's water moves is slightly skewed though in that I try to keep rain up like 90% of the time for my team.
    When I first saw Golisopod, I was like, "Well OBVIOUSLY it's going to be FI/AJ/Leech Life/Sucker Punch, because that has the most utility with both healing and backup priority." But that means that anybody who switches out to avoid First Impression is ALSO going to resist Leech Life, and you have nothing else to punish switches hard (when you KNOW they're going to switch and you still can't do better than Aqua Jet then that's pretty damn sad). So I think I'm coming around to Liquidate being really important, and now it's more down to Leech Life vs. Sucker Punch.

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
    WybornNeoToma
  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Pokemon that resist Bug + Water STAB:
    Tentacool/Tentacruel
    Poliwrath
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Marill/Azumarill
    Mantyke/Mantine
    Qwilfish
    Wingull/Pelipper
    Altaria/Mega Altaria
    Salamence/Mega Salamence
    Rayquaza/Mega Rayquaza
    Empoleon
    Dialga
    Giratina
    Ducklett/Swanna
    Frillish/Jellicent
    Keldeo
    Skrelp/Dragalge
    Noibat/Noivern
    Primarina
    Mareanie/Toxapex
    Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini

    Of those, I'd say the following are potentially meta relevent:
    Tentacool/Tentacruel
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Marill/Azumarill
    Mantyke/Mantine
    Wingull/Pelipper
    Altaria/Mega Altaria
    Salamence/Mega Salamence
    Frillish/Jellicent
    Keldeo
    Mareanie/Toxapex
    Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini

    Sir Fabulous on
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    NeoTomaArch
  • Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    But how many of those can you actually use right now

    The showdown meta is a lot different than the cart meta

    p0a2ody6sqnt.jpg
  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Yeah I've gotten pretty much no use outta sucker punch on showdown.
    non-stab dark isn't very useful offensively

    Sucker Punch is super useful for specific scenarios, and cutting out the ones that are just "oh Jesus, Aegislash is on the field"

    You want Sucker Punch for if your Golisopod sticks around for more than one turn and has the chance for a sweep. If the opponent brings out a Celesteela expecting First Impressions and eats Liquidation+Aqua Jet, or somebody leaves out Alakazam or Weavil against First Impressions, they then reasonably expect that they can bring in other big hitters that can outspeed Golisopod and wreck it with SE special attacks

    Like when I whooped this one Celesteela, somebody brought out their Alolan Raichu. Aqua Jet wasn't gonna kill that thing, no sir.

    Sucker Punch basically made it explode into mist.

    I like having priority moves super effective against psychics and ghosts that are still good after the first turn. More coverage!

    So, you'd suggest FI, Liquidation, Aqua Jet, and Sucker Punch.
    Pokemon that resist Bug + Water STAB:
    Tentacool/Tentacruel
    Poliwrath
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Marill/Azumarill
    Mantyke/Mantine
    Qwilfish
    Wingull/Pelipper
    Altaria/Mega Altaria
    Salamence/Mega Salamence
    Rayquaza/Mega Rayquaza
    Empoleon
    Dialga
    Giratina
    Ducklett/Swanna
    Frillish/Jellicent
    Keldeo
    Noibat/Noivern
    Primarina
    Mareanie/Toxapex
    Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini

    Of those, I'd say the following are potentially meta relevent:
    Tentacool/Tentacruel
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Marill/Azumarill
    Mantyke/Mantine
    Wingull/Pelipper
    Altaria/Mega Altaria
    Salamence/Mega Salamence
    Frillish/Jellicent
    Keldeo
    Mareanie/Toxapex
    Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini

    A lot of those melt in the face of A-Raichu on electric terrRain. Which is good, because my Golisopod tangent was started with me looking for teammates for a Koko/Pelliper/Raichu core.

    YggiDee wrote: »
    Having teenaged RPG leads is really cool until you stop being a teenager yourself. Do you remember being seventeen? You're a dumbass at seventeen! I wanna be saved by the guy who's twenty-seven. He's at least payed taxes. He knows how to do shit. He can drive.
  • ph blakeph blake Registered User regular
    So I understand singles well enough, but competitive doubles remains a complete mystery to me. As near as I can tell the strat is to pair up mons that cover each others weaknesses, and also protect/fake out are very important?

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Yeah I guess I'd suggest dropping Leech Life

    Only downside to that is that Leech Life is a great move, situationally, and can make the difference between Golisopod living forever versus dying all the time

    That SP coverage is real nice, though.
    Enlong wrote: »

    A lot of those melt in the face of A-Raichu on electric terrRain. Which is good, because my Golisopod tangent was started with me looking for teammates for a Koko/Pelliper/Raichu core.

    That's actually how I first decided to look into Golisopod, too!

    Wyborn on
    dN0T6ur.png
  • Emerlmaster999Emerlmaster999 Quill {they/them}Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    I'd say Shadow Sneak over Claw on Mimikyu. You're already getting the Swords Dance boost plus the extra 30% damage from Life Orb, plus there are fast threats that could outspeed Mimikyu if he tries to use Claw instead.

    Course, I'm also completely biased towards priority moves ever since I used a Life Orb+Technician Hitmontop and surprised quite a lot of opponents in Battle Revolution. That little top kicked in so many faces. I also once battled a guy in person who was laughing at his "soon-to-be victory", as we were down to Scizor (mine), and Charizard (his). He wasn't smiling so much after he took a SD+Tech+Life Orb boosted Quick Attack for 100% health, and that was back when Scizor was kinda shrugged at for not having Bullet Punch.

    Emerlmaster999 on
  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    But how many of those can you actually use right now

    The showdown meta is a lot different than the cart meta

    Of the meta relevent 'mons?

    Tentacruel
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Azumarill
    Pelipper
    Salamence
    Toxapex
    Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini

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  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Pokemon that resist Bug + Water STAB:
    Tentacool/Tentacruel
    Poliwrath
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Marill/Azumarill
    Mantyke/Mantine
    Qwilfish
    Wingull/Pelipper
    Altaria/Mega Altaria
    Salamence/Mega Salamence
    Rayquaza/Mega Rayquaza
    Empoleon
    Dialga
    Giratina
    Ducklett/Swanna
    Frillish/Jellicent
    Keldeo
    Noibat/Noivern
    Primarina
    Mareanie/Toxapex
    Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini

    Of those, I'd say the following are potentially meta relevent:
    Tentacool/Tentacruel
    Gyarados
    Dragonite
    Marill/Azumarill
    Mantyke/Mantine
    Wingull/Pelipper
    Altaria/Mega Altaria
    Salamence/Mega Salamence
    Frillish/Jellicent
    Keldeo
    Mareanie/Toxapex
    Hakammo-o/Kommo-o
    Tapu Fini
    I wonder if there are enough fliers on that list for Rock Tomb/Rock Slide to be reasonable? Or if the speed drop from Rock Tomb ever matters? Poison Jab works on a couple but I don't know if you're winning many fights with neutral Poison Jab. (Some of these like Toxapex are unwinnable no matter what so you might as well just forget about that.)

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    At least 70% of this thread is incomprehensible to me

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
    SilverWindLindsay LohanNeoTomamildlymorbidGrey GhostBear_thescondFig-DFrem
  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    At least 70% of this thread is incomprehensible to me

    You just need to chain your HAs so you can IV select before you build EVs. But don't forget you HPs, or you'll regret it.

    YggiDee wrote: »
    Having teenaged RPG leads is really cool until you stop being a teenager yourself. Do you remember being seventeen? You're a dumbass at seventeen! I wanna be saved by the guy who's twenty-seven. He's at least payed taxes. He knows how to do shit. He can drive.
    CalicaTommy2HandsJimothy
  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    edited November 2016
    I'm kind of blown away that a week into OU being a thing the Smogons STILL haven't quickbanned Aegislash, Pheromosa or Hoopa-Unbound

    All 3 are to around the same shitty centralizing power level of the immediately quickbanned Zygarde-complete, and they have made, and continue to make the meta an unfun shit fest that's generally decided at matchup

    Aegislash can comfortably switch into over half the meta and sit there spamming nuclear shadow balls while always perfectly scouting with kings shield, and sniping kills with shadow sneak

    Pheromosa is faster than God and can't be revenged

    And Hoopa-Unbound literally just has to click 'hyperspace fury' and win games

    Beasteh on
    Arch
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    On the subject of the Smogons, has Tapu Lele turned out to not be a thing? I was so sure Tapu Lele was gonna be a thing.

    Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
  • GreasyKidsStuffGreasyKidsStuff MOMMM! ROAST BEEF WANTS TO KISS GIRLS ON THE TITTIES!Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    At least 70% of this thread is incomprehensible to me

    here, maybe this'll help

    DemonStaceyClint Eastwood
  • Emerlmaster999Emerlmaster999 Quill {they/them}Registered User regular
    Yeah I don't get why Smogon doesn't just use a "No Legendaries At All" rule.

    I know there's ones that just suck like Entei and Phione, but I never have fun fighting any Legendary.

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Quite a lot of legendaries aren't good enough to see use in the higher tiers, and the majority of the 'box cover' ones are straight to Ubers anyway

    Beasteh on
    PLASpeed RacerMegaMek
  • Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    Didnt original zygrade have less stats than raichu

    p0a2ody6sqnt.jpg
  • something a million times dumbersomething a million times dumber JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    I'm a little surprised aegislash wasn't banned instantly

    that thing is plainly cray

    something a million times dumber on
    Beastehph blakeNirya
  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    Wyvern wrote: »
    On the subject of the Smogons, has Tapu Lele turned out to not be a thing? I was so sure Tapu Lele was gonna be a thing.

    I generally see Lele paired with Mega Alakazam/other frail sweepers which look to benefit from being immune to priority

    Lele usually runs specs or scarf, specs psychic in psychic terrain hits like a truck filled with smaller trucks

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Pheromosa's a big problem but my team's basically set up to hard counter her by accident

    What does Hoopa do exactly? I'm not clear on it

    Wyborn on
    dN0T6ur.png
  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    edited November 2016
    Hoopa is strong as fuck, can take special hits for days and is immune to protect/kings shield since its signature move breaks through them

    It forces Aegislash to switch out or die

    e: it has 160 Atk, 170 Sp.Atk and a usable 80 speed, with 80 HP/60 Def/130 Sp.Def

    Beasteh on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Shorty wrote: »
    I'm a little surprised aegislash wasn't banned instantly

    that thing is plainly cray

    I used him for a whole run without realising he was a donkey fucker. I guess he was set up wrong!

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

  • OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    At least 70% of this thread is incomprehensible to me

    here, maybe this'll help

    See most of this is incomprehensible to me, but it's got a smiling Chikorita so I'm on board.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    Chesticles

    Emerlmaster999CalicaTommy2Hands
  • OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    Beasteh wrote: »
    Chesticles

    You people are sick and should be ashamed of yourselves.

    cdci44qazyo3.gif

    BeastehAndy JoeCare Free BombTommy2HandsGreasyKidsStuffWhippy
  • Emerlmaster999Emerlmaster999 Quill {they/them}Registered User regular
    One day, Chikoirta, you may get Megameganium. Til then, you will never be useful.

  • Moth 13Moth 13 Registered User regular
    Doesn't Hoopa Unbound have Box Legendary stats? That seems like it would go into ubers right away.

    Beasteh
  • something a million times dumbersomething a million times dumber JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    I'm a little surprised aegislash wasn't banned instantly

    that thing is plainly cray

    I used him for a whole run without realising he was a donkey fucker. I guess he was set up wrong!

    mine solo'd the champion back in X

    they dropped in someone who I thought might be able to take him out halfway through, I think, and I was just like "let's see how this goes"

    it went very well

    SirToasty
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    I'm pretty sure my setup for him was like

    3 ghost moves
    one fighting move

    KERBLAM.

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

    Andy Joe
  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    Moth 13 wrote: »
    Doesn't Hoopa Unbound have Box Legendary stats? That seems like it would go into ubers right away.

    680 Base Stat Total so just below absurd shit like Groudon/Kyogre/Mewtwo etc

  • Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    My son has told me he can't respect my team because I have all three starters. But they're all so cute, how do you decide?

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    Also OU still has genesect, landorus-incarnate and greninja so lol

  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    Who even makes the decision to quickban something over on Smogon?

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This discussion has been closed.