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[Death Stranding] Wave O'Babies

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  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    In-game urination? Finally the real Postal 2 sequel I've been waiting for.

  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    o4ff2ancpgh31.png?width=301&auto=webp&s=32584cfe76f6a98756667f5d11e9c0d4798da624

    It sounds like the way babies are treated was offputting to Sam in that Bridge Baby trailer, presumably some resolution will happen there to explain or rectify the situation?

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    So not a fan of Handmaids Tale huh?

    I'd be more willing to give it the benefit of the doubt if this wasn't coming from the dude who went out of his way to ensure the Quiet action figure had squeezable boobs.

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  • Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    edited August 19
    AKA Heido Kojima just wants to make movies.

    I'm never going to forget how I saw him give a talk (along with a bunch of other game devs) at the Art of Videogames exhibit at the Smithsonian American Art Museum in 2009, and one of the moderators asked him a question along the lines of, "What are your artistic influences, like, what kinds of games are you really trying to make?"

    And I just distinctly remember the sort of time-delayed laughter as he answered in Japanese, and those of us who could understand even a *teensy bit* of Japanese (aka, me) understood EXACTLY what his answer was

    Because I caught "映画" (eiga, "Movie")

    And then of course the REST of the room laughing, a few seconds later, as the translator said "I just want to make movies, man."

    *EDIT*
    ED! wrote: »
    So not a fan of Handmaids Tale huh?

    A big difference is that Handmaid's Tale was originally written by a woman as a commentary on religious zealotry and misogyny in the United States. This this video game is being written by a man who a.) has a pretty bad track record of writing women as disposable objects and b.) has a pretty bad track record of just kinda writing stuff in the style of ridiculous American blockbuster action flicks, which also have a really bad track record of women as disposable objects. Forgive us our skepticism that these subjects will be treated with anything near the level of nuance that either the book or TV show versions of Handmaid's Tale did.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    I'm not really expecting the game to do a great job of representation but I haven't seen much that makes me think it'll be anywhere near as bad as Quiet. The trailer for Mama seemed like she would be an interesting character! Either way I'm excited for the insane shit.

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  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    edited August 20
    Edit: I think some personal experiences have really shaped the way I viewed the trailer and I should calm down a bit before posting.

    I am excited for insane shit too, but I found both Mama and the Bridge Baby movies way more disturbing than anything Quiet related.

    Im hoping that we just don't know enough yet to make any sense of it.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    edited August 20


    I guess I should say while I'm not expecting a shining beacon of representation, I'm not really expecting some terribly offensive thing either. Obviously there's some touchy subjects and weird themes going on in this game. Some probably pretty disturbing stuff in some areas. But that all is deeply intriguing to me and not offputting, or making me think that it'll be mishandled like Quiet was or anything.

    I think Kojima definitely could stand to put more women in his games (who are handled a lot better than Quiet), but not every woman he's put in his games has been a ridiculous caricature either. I remember thinking Sniper Wolf was quite awesome for instance. I think he's capable of writing good women, so I sure hope he pulls that off in this because the more I see of it the more it looks like the exact kind of fun crazy I can't wait to play.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Has he put a female character in his game that hasn't blatantly shown cleavage at some point?

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Has he put a female character in his game that hasn't blatantly shown cleavage at some point?

    Meryl?
    You specifically said cleavage. The underwear trick in MGS1 is not cleavage. So I'm technically correct. Hah!

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Emma and Olga. But you could argue the camera creeps on them in other ways.

  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    No word on the pc version yet, huh

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  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited August 20
    found some cool concept art for the Mama character
    juq8dyowihqy.png

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  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    I think the reason that I got, and still am, so upset about those is that it crosses a line from stupid teen male gaze stuff, which I've always been able to overlook, to something that actually offended me. I know he's never been good at writing women, but it always had that sheen of stupid Hollywood - something we're all so desensitized to that while it SHOULDN'T be there, when it is you roll your eyes and move on.

    Mama spoilers
    When I wrote a huge angry thing last night I assumed Mama's baby is dead. A dead baby.

    Now I realize she says "born on the other side", so I'm assuming/hoping that there's just not enough information for us to know if the "land of the dead" is ACTUALLY people who are dead, or a hellscape where dead people (the skeletons) live, and very LIVING people are hanging out there too (like Mads) and can't cross back. Her having a baby she knows is being taken care of on that side is much different from her having a dead baby. So I've calmed a bit.

    But the idea of a mother having a baby die, and when the dead baby floats down to her from the afterlife, and breastfeeds from her - an act I can only imagine is one of the most intimate things on Earth if you choose to do - and her ONLY REACTION IS "Oh good now my boobs will hurt less".

    Thats fucking disgusting on a level I can't even deal with from Kojima.

    The absolute trauma and horror of your dead baby coming to visit you and try to be fed by you being met with "but my boobs" is just so disgusting I have to believe I just am reading the scene wrong.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited August 20
    The Spirit of Johnny Sasaki will always be with you. Can't escape from crossing streams...

    Aside, I am a huge sucker for ineffectual goon joins the good guys characters, and Johnny being a secret Bishie who manages to steal Meryl from Snake (or really the other the other way around), was hilarious and I loved it.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    mxmarks wrote: »
    I think the reason that I got, and still am, so upset about those is that it crosses a line from stupid teen male gaze stuff, which I've always been able to overlook, to something that actually offended me. I know he's never been good at writing women, but it always had that sheen of stupid Hollywood - something we're all so desensitized to that while it SHOULDN'T be there, when it is you roll your eyes and move on.

    Mama spoilers
    When I wrote a huge angry thing last night I assumed Mama's baby is dead. A dead baby.

    Now I realize she says "born on the other side", so I'm assuming/hoping that there's just not enough information for us to know if the "land of the dead" is ACTUALLY people who are dead, or a hellscape where dead people (the skeletons) live, and very LIVING people are hanging out there too (like Mads) and can't cross back. Her having a baby she knows is being taken care of on that side is much different from her having a dead baby. So I've calmed a bit.

    But the idea of a mother having a baby die, and when the dead baby floats down to her from the afterlife, and breastfeeds from her - an act I can only imagine is one of the most intimate things on Earth if you choose to do - and her ONLY REACTION IS "Oh good now my boobs will hurt less".

    Thats fucking disgusting on a level I can't even deal with from Kojima.

    The absolute trauma and horror of your dead baby coming to visit you and try to be fed by you being met with "but my boobs" is just so disgusting I have to believe I just am reading the scene wrong.

    I think the idea that this is her only reaction to that, when we've seen just a 3 minute trailer, is making some pretty big assumptions. This is certainly not the read i got from it.
    I don't know if it's dead or just in that other plane or whatever, but I am certainly intrigued to find out. I will be very surprised if that's her entire reaction to that whole traumatic event happening. Also the other trailer about bridge babies implies that the people of this world view babies in a very different way than we do, and I'm pretty intrigued to see some of the ramifications of that.

    I sure hope it doesn't suck though!

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 20
    I'm not very interested in exploring the ramifications of having a factory farm set-up with brain-dead women being used to churn out babies that are used as tools and disposed of when no longer useful!

    It's extremely poor taste! Kojima does not have a line of credit to use on exploring that sort of subject matter!

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  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    It’s...certainly provocative, I guess. Kojima’s been reading some late-stage Dune. At least Dune had a way to frame, uh...coma baby farms in a way that demonstrated it was a freakishly inhuman thing right at the reveal.

    If he’s got some intentions that justify these sorts of decisions in his narrative, Kojima is really bungling the introduction of the ideas going on here.

    Lucid_Seraph
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not very interested in exploring the ramifications of having a factory farm set-up with brain-dead women being used to churn out babies that are used as tools and disposed of when no longer useful!

    It's extremely poor taste! Kojima does not have a line of credit to use on exploring that sort of subject matter!

    I mean, I can see why newborns would function as a bridge between the living and the dead with birth/rebirth type themes. I don't think the trailer actually says they're using brain-dead women to "churn out babies" but I guess that's possible.

    I'm certainly intrigued to see where the story goes! I haven't seen anything in this game so far to make me think it's going to be handled poorly, but we still haven't seen that much. I hope it is handled well!

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited August 21
    Is anyone expecting Kojima to not be Kojima here? Did you think he would listen to contemporary English-speaking outrage when Japan could give a shit about gender inequality? If he ends up on the right side of offensive, it will be from sheer luck plus a little censorship.

    Still this premise makes me think of the recent culture around the Bodhisattva Jizo more than anything else. When you're asking for funerary rites to aid in the good rebirth for the soul of a fetus you just aborted, life and death are intertwined in a pretty unique way.

    That and a touch of "Japan needs more babies to sustain its aging population, no we don't want filthy immigrants are you crazy?" But it could as easily be a reactionary commentary on that notion.

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  • Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    edited August 21
    Is anyone expecting Kojima to not be Kojima here? Did you think he would listen to contemporary English-speaking outrage when Japan could give a shit about gender inequality? If he ends up on the right side of offensive, it will be from sheer luck plus a little censorship.

    Still this premise makes me think of the recent culture around the Bodhisattva Jizo more than anything else. When you're asking for funerary rites to aid in the good rebirth for the soul of a fetus you just aborted, life and death are intertwined in a pretty unique way.

    That and a touch of "Japan needs more babies to sustain its aging population, no we don't want filthy immigrants are you crazy?" But it could as easily be a reactionary commentary on that notion.

    Yeah, I wasn't initially gonna go there, bc I am Extremely White (TM), but I did live in Japan very briefly, and yeah, this is all legit. Japan's current issues with gender politics are... just as if not more complicated / fucked up than the stuff in the US (albeit sometimes in very different ways, like, it's not always equatable), plus, yeah, I absolutely think there's some commentary here going on about Japan's lack-of-baby crisis, absolute seething hatred of immigrants. Seriously, they make the US' immigration policies look reasonable; basically the only difference is that as far as I know, they haven't been actively putting people in cages, but tbqh that's only because they're an island nation and thus don't have masses knocking on the door. I can guarantee if they had a sudden massive influx like the US does, there would be people in cages. Fucking Shinzo Abe you shithead you never should have gotten re-elected you racist, nationalist fasci--- I don't have opinions about Japanese politics, or anything >>;

    Ahem.

    Anyway, Kojima is Extremely Japanese (TM), in that a lot of his opinions are actually pretty goddamn mainstream over there. He really only cares about American culture insofar as he really loves American action movies guys, like, hot damn.

    Personally, my remaining, thin hope is that del Toro has had a smidge of say in the creative process, because his understanding of both world culture (not just the US) and his ability to write women are actually pretty god damned good [/gestures at Pacific Rim, Shape of Water].

    I... have to go deal with a bunch of real life stuff, but I also have a lot of angry grumbling to do about the way that women in media are often only thought of in relation to their ability to reproduce, whether that's "he hee sexay" or "Look At All This Symbolism About Making New Life And Stuff." see also the way that transgender women can be treated as alien/other partially because they don't carry the baby, the way that sterility is treated as The Worst Evar Wargl (Thanks, Joss Whedon's take on Black Widow! :| ), like... that basically in a lot of works by men, women are thought of in relation to "They can have a baby inside them! WILD" and not as 3 dimensional living beings that perhaps have inner lives beyond ZOMG BABY MAKIN. But uh, this isn't a nuanced take on how I feel about it *in relation to what we've seen of Death Stranding so far*, and I still think it's possible that if enough of the creative team smacked Kojima on the head a few times the game might have interesting things to say (See above mention about Jizo & notions of death in Japanese religion)

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    If nothing else, this game really is pure, unfiltered Kojima, for better or worse.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not very interested in exploring the ramifications of having a factory farm set-up with brain-dead women being used to churn out babies that are used as tools and disposed of when no longer useful!

    It's extremely poor taste! Kojima does not have a line of credit to use on exploring that sort of subject matter!

    I mean, I can see why newborns would function as a bridge between the living and the dead with birth/rebirth type themes. I don't think the trailer actually says they're using brain-dead women to "churn out babies" but I guess that's possible.

    I'm certainly intrigued to see where the story goes! I haven't seen anything in this game so far to make me think it's going to be handled poorly, but we still haven't seen that much. I hope it is handled well!

    They don't have to say that, because they clearly say 1) The baby is connected to the brain-dead mother still 2) the mother is being kept alive in an ICU somewhere 3) the baby's only have a useful of lifespan for about a year before they're discarded and 4) the babies are removed from the mother's womb to be used 5) the babies are supposed to be thought of as "equipment"

    Feel free to explain to me how that doesn't add up to them using brain-dead women as baby factories.


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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    Well it's possible there are lots of brain dead people due to this apocalypse thing and when they find a pregnant brain dead person they then use the baby and hook that person into the system. More of a limited resource than a factory farm. They didn't say they're impregnating brain dead women over and over.

    But we don't know yet! I'm reserving judgment until I have all the info.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 21
    So due to the apocalypse happening, there were brain dead women who were pregnant.

    Pregnancy lasts for nine months.

    The babies' use as equipment is about a year.

    So where do they get babies from after those women rendered brain dead from the apocalypse have given birth and their babies are no longer useful?

    Are you going to suggest to me that this apocalypse thing is on-going, and that there just so happens to be a constant supply of pregnant women who become rendered brain-dead by the ongoing effects that this organization can conveniently locate in order to use their children for this program? Because that's problematic as fuck as well.

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    It's only problematic if the story frames this as something that is all well and good.

    It's possible to present shitty situations in fiction and not be problematic.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    It's only problematic if the story frames this as something that is all well and good.

    It's possible to present shitty situations in fiction and not be problematic.

    Also Norman Reedus seemed pretty upset about it in that little trailer. Seems like he pretty clearly wants to keep his baby alive, but that's me making a big assumption with the tiny amount of info we have so far.
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    So due to the apocalypse happening, there were brain dead women who were pregnant.

    Pregnancy lasts for nine months.

    The babies' use as equipment is about a year.

    So where do they get babies from after those women rendered brain dead from the apocalypse have given birth and their babies are no longer useful?

    Are you going to suggest to me that this apocalypse thing is on-going, and that there just so happens to be a constant supply of pregnant women who become rendered brain-dead by the ongoing effects that this organization can conveniently locate in order to use their children for this program? Because that's problematic as fuck as well.

    Well what happens to a person when they get attacked by the invisible shadow hand prints? That seems to be ongoing. How many bridge babies are there? I'm guessing there's not a whole lot, there barely seem to be that many people at all.

    I'm just saying we have tiny tidbits of info and to assume the whole game is going to be a problematic mess because we have only hints at the full scope of what is happening seems premature.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 21
    "Once you know her story you will regret your words and deeds," huh?

    See, I've seen Kojima pull the "well it's all fine in context" bit before. It's been bullshit every time. What's "premature" is giving him the benefit of the doubt on any of this.

    Renzo wrote: »
    It's only problematic if the story frames this as something that is all well and good.

    It's possible to present shitty situations in fiction and not be problematic.

    True, you can have shitty situations in fiction without them being problematic. But framing something as bad does not magically make it non-problematic.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited August 21
    Honestly I'm looking forward to the Look Who's Talking sequel mashup.
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Well it's possible there are lots of brain dead people due to this apocalypse thing and when they find a pregnant brain dead person they then use the baby and hook that person into the system. More of a limited resource than a factory farm. They didn't say they're impregnating brain dead women over and over.

    But we don't know yet! I'm reserving judgment until I have all the info.

    It's pretty clear the human race has been obliterated down to a population of maybe a few thousand, and society is unrecognizable. Hence Sam's bitterness towards the idea of the President being, well, President of much of anything. The world looks like the latter half of the Hellboy comics where yes, there are technically humans left alive, and there are a few enclaves, but everything else of the old world is gone.

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  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    I wonder how the pitch went. "So, you're a dude and you carry aborted fetuses around because they give you the power to see ghosts"

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  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    I wonder how the pitch went. "So, you're a dude and you carry aborted fetuses around because they give you the power to see ghosts"

    I think the pitch was just:

    "I'm Hideo Kojima"

    desc wrote: »
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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if Sony gave the dude almost complete freedom to do whatever the hell he wanted. I mean, you never see anything this weird in AAA gaming space anymore.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if Sony gave the dude almost complete freedom to do whatever the hell he wanted. I mean, you never see anything this weird in AAA gaming space anymore.

    I don't think you see anything this weird, period. Even Yoko Taro is scratching his head.

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  • Genji-GlovesGenji-Gloves Registered User regular
    I mean every new bit of info that turns up just makes me scratch my head more and I love it. Kojima batshit sci-fi..it’s just great.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    Well, the one time I watched that movie it did sort've feel like I was trapped in an eternal nightmare realm with no hope of escape, not even in death. So certain people may experience things differently.

    It would be a boring world if we were all alike.

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Yeh forget that year long lifespan thing, I will save my Bebe.

    Oh brilliant
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  • el_vicioel_vicio Registered User regular
    is that...The Sound of Music?!

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    The hills are alive, eh?

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    So, uh.

    Um.

    All the rest of it aside, what happens to the babies after the year where they are ‘useful.’

  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not very interested in exploring the ramifications of having a factory farm set-up with brain-dead women being used to churn out babies that are used as tools and disposed of when no longer useful!

    It's extremely poor taste! Kojima does not have a line of credit to use on exploring that sort of subject matter!
    Yeah. The only way I can think of to make it a little less problematic is if the Bebes were (genetically engineered and/or cloned from stem cells) test tube foetuses that never really have a mother or father.
    That still has problems though, probably.

    We'll see though. This looks so weird that I just had to pre-order it. I love weird, especially Kojima at his weirdest.

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