How necessary is Twisting Nether for Renolock? I noticed I don't actually have a copy.
Not necessary to hit rank 10, necessary to hit rank 5 and higher.
Interesting. I was just looking at Asmodai's rank 1 Renolock list and it does not run TN. Granted, he's way better than me, so I might still want it as another safety measure.
Jade Druid is almost never played in top 200 legend, its almost exclusively Aggro Shaman/Rogue. He cut it since it's not needed there. But you will absolutely face many jade druids between ranks 10 and 1.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
just won with pirate rogue on turn 5
I take back my angry post from yesterday. seeing reno can be annoying but damn that was plenty satisfying.
How necessary is Twisting Nether for Renolock? I noticed I don't actually have a copy.
Not necessary to hit rank 10, necessary to hit rank 5 and higher.
Interesting. I was just looking at Asmodai's rank 1 Renolock list and it does not run TN. Granted, he's way better than me, so I might still want it as another safety measure.
Jade Druid is almost never played in top 200 legend, its almost exclusively Aggro Shaman/Rogue. He cut it since it's not needed there. But you will absolutely face many jade druids between ranks 10 and 1.
Makes sense.
I also see that he's cut Jaraxxus. I've heard folks are doing this but I'm not sure why. Is it just a focus on having burst rather than playing the long value game?
How necessary is Twisting Nether for Renolock? I noticed I don't actually have a copy.
Not necessary to hit rank 10, necessary to hit rank 5 and higher.
Interesting. I was just looking at Asmodai's rank 1 Renolock list and it does not run TN. Granted, he's way better than me, so I might still want it as another safety measure.
Jade Druid is almost never played in top 200 legend, its almost exclusively Aggro Shaman/Rogue. He cut it since it's not needed there. But you will absolutely face many jade druids between ranks 10 and 1.
Makes sense.
I also see that he's cut Jaraxxus. I've heard folks are doing this but I'm not sure why. Is it just a focus on having burst rather than playing the long value game?
Jarraxus is probably cut because while it dominates against priest, you can get burst down pretty quickly by other classes.
I love that Reynad basically just built a "fuck you" Druid specifically for denying contest entrants.
Can someone explain to this n00b?
There's a contest running where you can tweet le clever memes and fanart to TaKeTV for a chance to challenge a Hearthstone pro to win PC components. (in this instance it was a 1TB SSD)
Defeating them or at least reducing their HP(not counting armor) to 10 or below by match end would win the prize.
Reynad was challenged, and reasoned that whoever challenged him would try to bank on pushing him to 10 even if they didn't win, so they would most likely go with a hyper aggressive deck. He built a wall druid with a ton of self-healing to deal with that.
As Reynad predicted, the challenger played a weapon/pirate warrior and tried to blitz Reynad down to 10, but couldn't deal with the Swipes, self-healing and large walls and eventually lost without even hitting 10.
I really like the Wild Pirate deck that was posted earlier. I have had a few Turn 2's where I can play Ship's Cannon + Coin + Any 1-cost Pirate and now all of a sudden there are three bodies on the board, cannons firing all over the place and a Charge minion doing damage.
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
Why wouldn't he make it difficult to get a free 1TB SSD?
I mean, he out-predicted the participant, that's what a professional player does. There are decks that counter that kind of druid, but he chose to try and cheese a contest and got punished for it. That's on him, not Reynad.
I DIY Reno and still lost because the stupid Kazakus potion didn't give me the AOE >:(
How did this play out? Because you've got a full heal in hand and a minion on the board and your opponent is down to 1 card. That screenshot doesn't look hopeless to me.
I DIY Reno and still lost because the stupid Kazakus potion didn't give me the AOE >:(
How did this play out? Because you've got a full heal in hand and a minion on the board and your opponent is down to 1 card. That screenshot doesn't look hopeless to me.
His next two cards were Everyfin.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
Why wouldn't he make it difficult to get a free 1TB SSD?
I mean, he out-predicted the participant, that's what a professional player does. There are decks that counter that kind of druid, but he chose to try and cheese a contest and got punished for it. That's on him, not Reynad.
while I don't think reynad did anything wrong, saying he tried to "cheese" something because he went with the most logical choice is an odd way of phrasing it?
no one did anything wrong. two people were presented with specific contest rules and reacted in entirely logical ways. nothing is "on" anyone.
also for those watching, I totally knew he should hero power that drakonid operative.
I DIY Reno and still lost because the stupid Kazakus potion didn't give me the AOE >:(
How did this play out? Because you've got a full heal in hand and a minion on the board and your opponent is down to 1 card. That screenshot doesn't look hopeless to me.
His next two cards were Everyfin.
Yep, that'd do it.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
He didn't stop them from participating, he just made then actually have to be smart and put effort in to win. It's not supposed to just be a giveaway, it's like the half court shot for a thousand dollars at basketball games where you're not expected to win.
The Escape Goat on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
so does that druid deck lose to anything?
I don't have either aviana or kun and it's just as well because I don't need to grind druid wins but... jesus.
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
Why wouldn't he make it difficult to get a free 1TB SSD?
I mean, he out-predicted the participant, that's what a professional player does. There are decks that counter that kind of druid, but he chose to try and cheese a contest and got punished for it. That's on him, not Reynad.
I dunno, he's a pro. He doesn't lose anything from either winning or losing.
Whoever is that won the chance to play, is a fan.
He's not a pro player who should be expected to be playing at the highest of tiers. Odds are he's actually not a very good player to begin with (considering the player base rankings spread).
I'm not saying throw the game but don't be a dick about it either and try something else for fun rather than just "you won't win."
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
Why wouldn't he make it difficult to get a free 1TB SSD?
I mean, he out-predicted the participant, that's what a professional player does. There are decks that counter that kind of druid, but he chose to try and cheese a contest and got punished for it. That's on him, not Reynad.
I dunno, he's a pro. He doesn't lose anything from either winning or losing.
Whoever is that won the chance to play, is a fan.
He's not a pro player who should be expected to be playing at the highest of tiers. Odds are he's actually not a very good player to begin with (considering the player base rankings spread).
I'm not saying throw the game but don't be a dick about it either and try something else for fun rather than just "you won't win."
Well, for one, he will lose some amount of face. When they interviewed him afterwards he was like "I kinda feel like a dick for beating him, but on the other hand if I lost I couldn't go on twitter for at least two days and chat wouldn't let me live it down."
And also the fact that he was probably under instruction from the people providing the SSD to not throw it.
+1
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
this wasn't a streamer playing random games with fans. he was the final boss of a contest to get free shit.
I dunno, he's a pro. He doesn't lose anything from either winning or losing.
If I were the company doing the promotion, I'd put in a bonus in the contract for denying the win. Reynad winning this made the contest way more noticeable than it would have been otherwise.
Personally, if I was in the fan's position I wouldn't want the pro to lie down and give me the win. I'd want to feel like I earned it.
Muffinatron on
PSN: Holy-Promethium
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
Why wouldn't he make it difficult to get a free 1TB SSD?
I mean, he out-predicted the participant, that's what a professional player does. There are decks that counter that kind of druid, but he chose to try and cheese a contest and got punished for it. That's on him, not Reynad.
I dunno, he's a pro. He doesn't lose anything from either winning or losing.
Whoever is that won the chance to play, is a fan.
He's not a pro player who should be expected to be playing at the highest of tiers. Odds are he's actually not a very good player to begin with (considering the player base rankings spread).
I'm not saying throw the game but don't be a dick about it either and try something else for fun rather than just "you won't win."
I don't see why he should just roll over because he's playing a fan. Part of the game is anticipating what your opponent will do, even BEFORE the match starts. Reynad is good at that.
People often mistake competitiveness with crude behavior. They're not exactly the same thing.
There's honestly nothing more disrespectful to your opponent in a competitive environment than not doing your best. It gives a message of "You're not worth my time, I could beat you with one hand". I see it a lot in Dota between teams of different skill levels and I find it infuriating. If someone challenges you and you're better either decline or crush them, don't dick them around.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited December 2016
wooo first time ever sacrificial pacting a jaraxxus
took til the lock was in fatigue for them to play it. I had played the discover a mage/priest/lock card way earlier and saw mirror image and sw: death which are both good against renolock
I don't think the argument is about whether or not one should compete honestly and in good faith.
I think the argument is about what constitutes "honestly and in good faith".
One side of the argument - I think David Sirlin can accurately be considered its avatar - is that as long as you are acting within the rules of the game as they are written, then you are acting honestly and in good faith. Freeze mage is no fun to play against? Bummer, but the rules of the game allow it, and if it has a good win rate, then a rational player would actually NOT be playing honestly if they choose to handicap themselves by not playing it.
The other side of the argument is: although the rules can allow for certain interactions, some interactions that arise are No Fun, and so anyone who takes advantage of those interactions is considered to be acting in bad faith.
I think both of these arguments have their own merit, and maybe are more appropriate in different contexts. The only tricky thing is that the first argument is pretty objective, and various scenarios can be easily evaluated against it. The second argument is more subjective, and can fall victim to sliding goalposts; what is cheesy?
My feeling on this specific scenario is this: if we consider Reynad's all-taunts-all-the-time deck as cheesy, and no fun, then I feel like we should also consider hyper-aggressive decks (those that Reynad's was built to counter) to be likewise cheesy.
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lwt1973King of ThievesSyndicationRegistered Userregular
Geez folks, my very last line was specifically for him to not throw the game.
=P
Also, again, odds are he's not playing a pro, so it's not a competitive environment, it's for fun.
Even if you put someone who hits rank 10 (top 5%?) against him, it's still not an even match.
Anyway, I didn't see the stream so I can't speak more on it but it just didn't sound like much fun for the person playing him.
There's honestly nothing more disrespectful to your opponent in a competitive environment than not doing your best. It gives a message of "You're not worth my time, I could beat you with one hand". I see it a lot in Dota between teams of different skill levels and I find it infuriating. If someone challenges you and you're better either decline or crush them, don't dick them around.
If little Timmy at your friendly local game store really really wants to play you, the Big Kid, at his favorite game of Pokemans: The Ascension, I'd argue it's pretty much not fun to whip out the most hardcore tournament-level deck you own and annihilate him while he's still trying to pronounce his first three turns without lisping. For a less extreme example, if you're playing poker with your friends on a Friday, it's generally bad form to go in like you were setting up for some WSOP action, and spend the evening glowering at the table behind sunglasses and headphones while everyone else is shooting the shit over their favorite intoxicants.
To borrow from Kipling, the scenario is "the Master, wearied after a strenuous hour in the atelier, unbuttoned and at ease with some not inexpert but limited disciple". It is not in question that one can beat the other. But is that really the best for both parties?
Edit: And for a more "sporting" example, the friendlies between EPL teams and MLS teams. EPL generally stomps the MLS teams flat, but they still don't play all-out, because it's also disrespectful to humiliate your opponent if you don't have to.
I really like the Wild Pirate deck that was posted earlier. I have had a few Turn 2's where I can play Ship's Cannon + Coin + Any 1-cost Pirate and now all of a sudden there are three bodies on the board, cannons firing all over the place and a Charge minion doing damage.
Looks like Shaman/Rogue/Warrior > Mage/Warlock/Priest > Druid > Hunter/Paladin. I knew Rogue was performing well for streaming pros but I did not expect to see it where it is, or Druid so low.
Posts
may the smorc be with you
Jade Druid is almost never played in top 200 legend, its almost exclusively Aggro Shaman/Rogue. He cut it since it's not needed there. But you will absolutely face many jade druids between ranks 10 and 1.
I take back my angry post from yesterday. seeing reno can be annoying but damn that was plenty satisfying.
Makes sense.
I also see that he's cut Jaraxxus. I've heard folks are doing this but I'm not sure why. Is it just a focus on having burst rather than playing the long value game?
PSN: Threeve703
Tournament Reynad is the best Reynad, especially when he loses. Hopefully 0-4sen shows up.
Maybe if you threw Chakki in there somehow.
PSN: Threeve703
Jarraxus is probably cut because while it dominates against priest, you can get burst down pretty quickly by other classes.
I DIY Reno and still lost because the stupid Kazakus potion didn't give me the AOE >:(
Can someone explain to this n00b?
400 dust!
There's a contest running where you can tweet le clever memes and fanart to TaKeTV for a chance to challenge a Hearthstone pro to win PC components. (in this instance it was a 1TB SSD)
Defeating them or at least reducing their HP(not counting armor) to 10 or below by match end would win the prize.
Reynad was challenged, and reasoned that whoever challenged him would try to bank on pushing him to 10 even if they didn't win, so they would most likely go with a hyper aggressive deck. He built a wall druid with a ton of self-healing to deal with that.
As Reynad predicted, the challenger played a weapon/pirate warrior and tried to blitz Reynad down to 10, but couldn't deal with the Swipes, self-healing and large walls and eventually lost without even hitting 10.
I dunno, that kinda sounds like a dick move to build specifically to stop fans from having fun and participating?
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/36563500#Comment_36563500
I'm sure there are still places the list can be improved but it was good enough for rank 5. I never got around to trying One-eyed Cheat, for instance.
Why wouldn't he make it difficult to get a free 1TB SSD?
I mean, he out-predicted the participant, that's what a professional player does. There are decks that counter that kind of druid, but he chose to try and cheese a contest and got punished for it. That's on him, not Reynad.
How did this play out? Because you've got a full heal in hand and a minion on the board and your opponent is down to 1 card. That screenshot doesn't look hopeless to me.
while I don't think reynad did anything wrong, saying he tried to "cheese" something because he went with the most logical choice is an odd way of phrasing it?
no one did anything wrong. two people were presented with specific contest rules and reacted in entirely logical ways. nothing is "on" anyone.
also for those watching, I totally knew he should hero power that drakonid operative.
Yep, that'd do it.
He didn't stop them from participating, he just made then actually have to be smart and put effort in to win. It's not supposed to just be a giveaway, it's like the half court shot for a thousand dollars at basketball games where you're not expected to win.
I don't have either aviana or kun and it's just as well because I don't need to grind druid wins but... jesus.
I dunno, he's a pro. He doesn't lose anything from either winning or losing.
Whoever is that won the chance to play, is a fan.
He's not a pro player who should be expected to be playing at the highest of tiers. Odds are he's actually not a very good player to begin with (considering the player base rankings spread).
I'm not saying throw the game but don't be a dick about it either and try something else for fun rather than just "you won't win."
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Well, for one, he will lose some amount of face. When they interviewed him afterwards he was like "I kinda feel like a dick for beating him, but on the other hand if I lost I couldn't go on twitter for at least two days and chat wouldn't let me live it down."
And also the fact that he was probably under instruction from the people providing the SSD to not throw it.
he's now 5-0 with it! jeeeeeeeez
If I were the company doing the promotion, I'd put in a bonus in the contract for denying the win. Reynad winning this made the contest way more noticeable than it would have been otherwise.
Personally, if I was in the fan's position I wouldn't want the pro to lie down and give me the win. I'd want to feel like I earned it.
I don't see why he should just roll over because he's playing a fan. Part of the game is anticipating what your opponent will do, even BEFORE the match starts. Reynad is good at that.
People often mistake competitiveness with crude behavior. They're not exactly the same thing.
PSN: Threeve703
took til the lock was in fatigue for them to play it. I had played the discover a mage/priest/lock card way earlier and saw mirror image and sw: death which are both good against renolock
then I looked over and saw sac pact and cheered
I think the argument is about what constitutes "honestly and in good faith".
One side of the argument - I think David Sirlin can accurately be considered its avatar - is that as long as you are acting within the rules of the game as they are written, then you are acting honestly and in good faith. Freeze mage is no fun to play against? Bummer, but the rules of the game allow it, and if it has a good win rate, then a rational player would actually NOT be playing honestly if they choose to handicap themselves by not playing it.
The other side of the argument is: although the rules can allow for certain interactions, some interactions that arise are No Fun, and so anyone who takes advantage of those interactions is considered to be acting in bad faith.
I think both of these arguments have their own merit, and maybe are more appropriate in different contexts. The only tricky thing is that the first argument is pretty objective, and various scenarios can be easily evaluated against it. The second argument is more subjective, and can fall victim to sliding goalposts; what is cheesy?
My feeling on this specific scenario is this: if we consider Reynad's all-taunts-all-the-time deck as cheesy, and no fun, then I feel like we should also consider hyper-aggressive decks (those that Reynad's was built to counter) to be likewise cheesy.
=P
Also, again, odds are he's not playing a pro, so it's not a competitive environment, it's for fun.
Even if you put someone who hits rank 10 (top 5%?) against him, it's still not an even match.
Anyway, I didn't see the stream so I can't speak more on it but it just didn't sound like much fun for the person playing him.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
If little Timmy at your friendly local game store really really wants to play you, the Big Kid, at his favorite game of Pokemans: The Ascension, I'd argue it's pretty much not fun to whip out the most hardcore tournament-level deck you own and annihilate him while he's still trying to pronounce his first three turns without lisping. For a less extreme example, if you're playing poker with your friends on a Friday, it's generally bad form to go in like you were setting up for some WSOP action, and spend the evening glowering at the table behind sunglasses and headphones while everyone else is shooting the shit over their favorite intoxicants.
To borrow from Kipling, the scenario is "the Master, wearied after a strenuous hour in the atelier, unbuttoned and at ease with some not inexpert but limited disciple". It is not in question that one can beat the other. But is that really the best for both parties?
Edit: And for a more "sporting" example, the friendlies between EPL teams and MLS teams. EPL generally stomps the MLS teams flat, but they still don't play all-out, because it's also disrespectful to humiliate your opponent if you don't have to.
That's the one!
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
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Nothing else surprises me though, not even rogue. It's really good.
Likewise it's ghost town in Hunter-and-Paladinville.
PSN: Threeve703