Beasts aren't big in meta because there are no good beasts, they are weaker because all of their synergy cards are non-beasts that require you to have beasts on the board before you play them. Dragon synergy cards only need the dragon to be in your hand, and Pirates and Murlocs have cards that synergize with themselves. I think a few cards that synergize with beasts and are also beasts themselves will make the strategy work.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited February 2017
You kinda forgot the dark patron era shortly after BRM's release, Dibbs. The whole dying to a 40 attack frothing on turn 7 thing
The Escape Goat on
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
/r/hearthstone is just non stop shitting on the meta in general and shaman in particular right now. It's not unwarranted. Team 5 needs to balance more often. I understand they're hesitant to fuck with the meta, but they know they can always change cards back, right?
/r/hearthstone is just non stop shitting on the meta in general and shaman in particular right now. It's not unwarranted. Team 5 needs to balance more often. I understand they're hesitant to fuck with the meta, but they know they can always change cards back, right?
I think the big thing right now is the imminent retirement of LoE is going to totally blow up the meta, so tuning might be a bit premature? I'm not sure if there are any major tournaments coming up, but they have enough other metrics pointing to some level of equilibrium (even if it's comparatively few archetypes) that they may only do a target change to STB.
Playing C'Thun warrior in this meta is interesting. People are now making lots of mistakes against this deck. Generally aggro decks flooding the board, or control decks trying to go aggro...
Playing C'Thun warrior in this meta is interesting. People are now making lots of mistakes against this deck. Generally aggro decks flooding the board, or control decks trying to go aggro...
I played against one a couple of days ago and lost. Couldn't help but wonder: How does it fare against mid-jade shaman?
/r/hearthstone is just non stop shitting on the meta in general and shaman in particular right now. It's not unwarranted. Team 5 needs to balance more often. I understand they're hesitant to fuck with the meta, but they know they can always change cards back, right?
I think the big thing right now is the imminent retirement of LoE is going to totally blow up the meta, so tuning might be a bit premature? I'm not sure if there are any major tournaments coming up, but they have enough other metrics pointing to some level of equilibrium (even if it's comparatively few archetypes) that they may only do a target change to STB.
By this rationale, though, the meta is always about to change. At the release schedule they're aiming for, we're always just a couple months from new cards, or expansion and rotation. You can use that to justify never balancing anything ever.
I stand by Dr. Boom being what the power level of fatties should be.
maybe I'm just remembering him as part of secrets pally and don't have as much of a problem with it as I thought.
Dr. Boom was just 1 part of the Secrets curve and probably less important than Minibot, Muster, or Challenger imo.
There's less than a dozen 7+ mana minions (out of 100ish) that are played in the current meta and virtually all of them are tied to either fat taunts (AoW/Tirion), a board wipe (Abyssal Enforcer/Solia), or huge value generation (Antonidas/Jaraxxus). If you're going to run a card that slow then it needs to make either a huge board impact or threaten to win the game if it's not immediately dealt with.
We need more and better comeback swing plays like Boom, although ideally without the RNG that he and Yogg have.
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
Shockingly, everyone has different opinions about the most abused/abusive cards in the game.
For me, undertaker hunters and secret paladins are the most unfun things the game has ever produced. Shaman are everywhere but at least Blizzard has been more proactive about addressing that problem--even if they've been totally unsuccessful. Trogg and Totem Golem will be gone on a few months and that's going to be pretty big.
I'm hopeful that after a year of Standard, Blizzard realizes that they need to be a little more proactive about addressing problem cards. Specifically, more cards from the Core set need to go to Wild, and a balance sweep every 4 months or so, just to shake things up between expansions.
I'm a big fan of the Blizzard's general hands off approach, but they've taken it too far. It's pretty clear that significant balance changes help shake up a stagnant meta game as much as a new set or expansion can. The game needs more of that and I think its players crave it.
See? Everyone's coming around to my idea of nerfing Warsong Commander again.
3DS: 4098-4243-6127
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
Just having a fixed date for a balancing patch halfway between content releases (so three times a year) would do wonders.
Semi-related, I think they just need to introduce more stuff to the game. The last real addition we got was tavern brawl ages ago. My favorite idea is a third game mode next to standard and wild where they take standard and just ban cards each month. One month they can just ban the 10 most played cards. The next month they do a public poll on their website. Then they pull in some pros and let them make a curated list of bans. Then they maybe ban every card that costs less than 3 mana. Or every charge minion and every spell that can go face. The possibilities are endless and since it's always only one month if doesn't even need to be super balanced, it just needs to be not totally broken (much like their philosophy with wild).
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Recap: Renos for 29 hp on turn 5, Flamestrikes on curve, Shaman player misplays and doesn't have the absolute best draws (still a pretty good draw), loses not even close.
Dr boom was a bad card imo because so many decks ran it, and in the mid-range mid-range matchup whoever played out first seemed like they won. There was also no single card that answered it, so unless you were looking at lethal on the board, there were so few instances of not playing it as soon as you had the chance
Dr boom was a bad card imo because so many decks ran it, and in the mid-range mid-range matchup whoever played out first seemed like they won. There was also no single card that answered it, so unless you were looking at lethal on the board, there were so few instances of not playing it as soon as you had the chance
Lightbomb answered boom!
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited February 2017
I always though Dr Boom was fine, we need MORE awesome cards at 7+ mana, not fewer. The problem was that he was the best 7 drop by far and if you were running any kind of midrange or control deck he was there.
The problem isn't powerful cards, it's lack of meaningful choice. The 5-slot has been a dumpster for anything not Azure Drake, Sludge Belcher, and Healbot, and now that the latter two are in Wild everybody runs drakes. It's boring, and we need more choice in that slot. And probably need to put Drake into Wild, frankly.
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Interesting things you find, browsing the Hearthstone changelog of long, long ago, of what cards could have been:
* Illidan Stormrage: 7 mana 7/7 - Battlecry: Both players discard 3 cards and draw 3 cards.
* Onyxia: When you draw a card, deal 2 damage to all characters.
* Flame Imp: had Stealth.
* Shieldbearer: Used to have Enrage: +1 Attack.
* Mana Wyrm: was a 1 mana 0/3 with the current text.
I stand by Dr. Boom being what the power level of fatties should be.
maybe I'm just remembering him as part of secrets pally and don't have as much of a problem with it as I thought.
Dr. Boom was just 1 part of the Secrets curve and probably less important than Minibot, Muster, or Challenger imo.
There's less than a dozen 7+ mana minions (out of 100ish) that are played in the current meta and virtually all of them are tied to either fat taunts (AoW/Tirion), a board wipe (Abyssal Enforcer/Solia), or huge value generation (Antonidas/Jaraxxus). If you're going to run a card that slow then it needs to make either a huge board impact or threaten to win the game if it's not immediately dealt with.
We need more and better comeback swing plays like Boom, although ideally without the RNG that he and Yogg have.
I totally agree with you that high cost minions need to be more impactful. I would say that Boom falls in the value category as there wasn't 1 single card that could effectively deal with it. But honestly, 7+ mana cards need to be that way. How much better would Cenarius be if he was the body that had taunt and not his Treants?
The frustrating thing about Druid is that our core power fantasy is ramping up into large minions, but there are so few large minions worth ramping into. Not only that, but sometimes you ramp into these monsters and they get dealt with so easily you often wonder what the point is. I've played turn 3 Ancient of War against shaman that he just ran right over.
I can understand the trepidation about making more Dr. Booms at Neutral where they'll see play in practically every deck, but like, it's ok to limit that kind of power strictly to class cards.
What i'm saying is, give me non-legendary versions of Dr. Boom like cards in Druids so I have a function end game that's worth ramping towards. My only other option is Jade Druid and that gets eaten alive by STB and weapons.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I think Blizzard could do a by looking at what classes lack/have an overabundance of good drops per mana slot. Priest, for example, has a lot of hot garbage for slots 1-3, most of the playable cards being removal.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
There isn't a card that comes to mind that I've thought shouldn't exist because it's too oppressive.
There are, meanwhile, many cards I think shouldn't exist because they are so terrible/disappointing that I would rather there be no card in that slot than be reminded that they printed this card and it took up a precious card slot.
There isn't a card that comes to mind that I've thought shouldn't exist because it's too oppressive.
There are, meanwhile, many cards I think shouldn't exist because they are so terrible/disappointing that I would rather there be no card in that slot than be reminded that they printed this card and it took up a precious card slot.
so stb is okay?
i think stb is oppressive.
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Metal JaredMulligan WizardRhode IslandRegistered Userregular
See? Everyone's coming around to my idea of nerfing Warsong Commander again.
I think every few months they should continually nerf Warsong Commander so that in a few years it's a 6 cost 0/0 with Battlecry: Spawn Kel'Thzad and Sylvanas for your opponent.
BattleTag: MetalJared#1756
PSN: SoulCrusherJared
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
I stand by Dr. Boom being what the power level of fatties should be.
maybe I'm just remembering him as part of secrets pally and don't have as much of a problem with it as I thought.
Dr. Boom was just 1 part of the Secrets curve and probably less important than Minibot, Muster, or Challenger imo.
There's less than a dozen 7+ mana minions (out of 100ish) that are played in the current meta and virtually all of them are tied to either fat taunts (AoW/Tirion), a board wipe (Abyssal Enforcer/Solia), or huge value generation (Antonidas/Jaraxxus). If you're going to run a card that slow then it needs to make either a huge board impact or threaten to win the game if it's not immediately dealt with.
We need more and better comeback swing plays like Boom, although ideally without the RNG that he and Yogg have.
I totally agree with you that high cost minions need to be more impactful. I would say that Boom falls in the value category as there wasn't 1 single card that could effectively deal with it. But honestly, 7+ mana cards need to be that way. How much better would Cenarius be if he was the body that had taunt and not his Treants?
The frustrating thing about Druid is that our core power fantasy is ramping up into large minions, but there are so few large minions worth ramping into. Not only that, but sometimes you ramp into these monsters and they get dealt with so easily you often wonder what the point is. I've played turn 3 Ancient of War against shaman that he just ran right over.
I can understand the trepidation about making more Dr. Booms at Neutral where they'll see play in practically every deck, but like, it's ok to limit that kind of power strictly to class cards.
What i'm saying is, give me non-legendary versions of Dr. Boom like cards in Druids so I have a function end game that's worth ramping towards. My only other option is Jade Druid and that gets eaten alive by STB and weapons.
You would probably like Underworld Watchman Khawy from Shadowverse.
7 mana 4/5 Taunt, Deathrattle: Randomly Destroy one of the highest attack minions your opponent controls and heal your hero for X life, where X is that destroyed minion's Attack.
It even has the word Random on it, so that's like, +10 brownie points for Team 5.
I think Blizzard could do a by looking at what classes lack/have an overabundance of good drops per mana slot. Priest, for example, has a lot of hot garbage for slots 1-3, most of the playable cards being removal.
I think the mistake was having neutral minions be so good. I think it makes sense that they compliment a build or fill a hole. But I think having the best 4 drop or 7 drop be a neutral minion leads to the format revolving around very specific neutrals that power multiple decks.
Posts
As recent as last blizzcon they said they are still going with the proposed expansion-adventure-expansion yearly cycle.
yogg singlehandedly killed tournaments until the nerf.
i think you're romanticizing the past a little bit.
it's always been bad. lol
I think the big thing right now is the imminent retirement of LoE is going to totally blow up the meta, so tuning might be a bit premature? I'm not sure if there are any major tournaments coming up, but they have enough other metrics pointing to some level of equilibrium (even if it's comparatively few archetypes) that they may only do a target change to STB.
ah, yes
i wiped it clean from my memory, you see
dark times
bad times
(it's hard to mentally keep track of an entire game's metagame history!)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I despise Reno so much.
Even if he was "set your health to 15," he'd be OK.
But as is, he's the worst.
maybe I'm just remembering him as part of secrets pally and don't have as much of a problem with it as I thought.
It was the RNG that made it extra salty and tipped the scales I think
and not just ONE RNG effect, but two middle fingers up in the air
up high
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I played against one a couple of days ago and lost. Couldn't help but wonder: How does it fare against mid-jade shaman?
By this rationale, though, the meta is always about to change. At the release schedule they're aiming for, we're always just a couple months from new cards, or expansion and rotation. You can use that to justify never balancing anything ever.
Yeah, it's just not strong enough vs curve aggro or jade druid.
Jade Druid can diaf...
I totally see how it's the most mindless of decks...
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Yeah, I hate jades of all sorts... I just dislike the inevatability of the mechanic. And honestly the cards aren't even THAT bad when spawning 1/1's
Dr. Boom was just 1 part of the Secrets curve and probably less important than Minibot, Muster, or Challenger imo.
There's less than a dozen 7+ mana minions (out of 100ish) that are played in the current meta and virtually all of them are tied to either fat taunts (AoW/Tirion), a board wipe (Abyssal Enforcer/Solia), or huge value generation (Antonidas/Jaraxxus). If you're going to run a card that slow then it needs to make either a huge board impact or threaten to win the game if it's not immediately dealt with.
We need more and better comeback swing plays like Boom, although ideally without the RNG that he and Yogg have.
After actually seeing him in pay, though, I was totally wrong, I really like Reno and the decks he enables
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
For me, undertaker hunters and secret paladins are the most unfun things the game has ever produced. Shaman are everywhere but at least Blizzard has been more proactive about addressing that problem--even if they've been totally unsuccessful. Trogg and Totem Golem will be gone on a few months and that's going to be pretty big.
I'm hopeful that after a year of Standard, Blizzard realizes that they need to be a little more proactive about addressing problem cards. Specifically, more cards from the Core set need to go to Wild, and a balance sweep every 4 months or so, just to shake things up between expansions.
I'm a big fan of the Blizzard's general hands off approach, but they've taken it too far. It's pretty clear that significant balance changes help shake up a stagnant meta game as much as a new set or expansion can. The game needs more of that and I think its players crave it.
Semi-related, I think they just need to introduce more stuff to the game. The last real addition we got was tavern brawl ages ago. My favorite idea is a third game mode next to standard and wild where they take standard and just ban cards each month. One month they can just ban the 10 most played cards. The next month they do a public poll on their website. Then they pull in some pros and let them make a curated list of bans. Then they maybe ban every card that costs less than 3 mana. Or every charge minion and every spell that can go face. The possibilities are endless and since it's always only one month if doesn't even need to be super balanced, it just needs to be not totally broken (much like their philosophy with wild).
I'll link this one, because it's pretty magical to watch:
Recap: Renos for 29 hp on turn 5, Flamestrikes on curve, Shaman player misplays and doesn't have the absolute best draws (still a pretty good draw), loses not even close.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
That is fucking gross.
Druid was great during those times so I am super biased
Lightbomb answered boom!
The problem isn't powerful cards, it's lack of meaningful choice. The 5-slot has been a dumpster for anything not Azure Drake, Sludge Belcher, and Healbot, and now that the latter two are in Wild everybody runs drakes. It's boring, and we need more choice in that slot. And probably need to put Drake into Wild, frankly.
* Illidan Stormrage: 7 mana 7/7 - Battlecry: Both players discard 3 cards and draw 3 cards.
* Onyxia: When you draw a card, deal 2 damage to all characters.
* Flame Imp: had Stealth.
* Shieldbearer: Used to have Enrage: +1 Attack.
* Mana Wyrm: was a 1 mana 0/3 with the current text.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I totally agree with you that high cost minions need to be more impactful. I would say that Boom falls in the value category as there wasn't 1 single card that could effectively deal with it. But honestly, 7+ mana cards need to be that way. How much better would Cenarius be if he was the body that had taunt and not his Treants?
The frustrating thing about Druid is that our core power fantasy is ramping up into large minions, but there are so few large minions worth ramping into. Not only that, but sometimes you ramp into these monsters and they get dealt with so easily you often wonder what the point is. I've played turn 3 Ancient of War against shaman that he just ran right over.
I can understand the trepidation about making more Dr. Booms at Neutral where they'll see play in practically every deck, but like, it's ok to limit that kind of power strictly to class cards.
What i'm saying is, give me non-legendary versions of Dr. Boom like cards in Druids so I have a function end game that's worth ramping towards. My only other option is Jade Druid and that gets eaten alive by STB and weapons.
There are, meanwhile, many cards I think shouldn't exist because they are so terrible/disappointing that I would rather there be no card in that slot than be reminded that they printed this card and it took up a precious card slot.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
so stb is okay?
i think stb is oppressive.
I think every few months they should continually nerf Warsong Commander so that in a few years it's a 6 cost 0/0 with Battlecry: Spawn Kel'Thzad and Sylvanas for your opponent.
PSN: SoulCrusherJared
You would probably like Underworld Watchman Khawy from Shadowverse.
7 mana 4/5 Taunt, Deathrattle: Randomly Destroy one of the highest attack minions your opponent controls and heal your hero for X life, where X is that destroyed minion's Attack.
It even has the word Random on it, so that's like, +10 brownie points for Team 5.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I think the mistake was having neutral minions be so good. I think it makes sense that they compliment a build or fill a hole. But I think having the best 4 drop or 7 drop be a neutral minion leads to the format revolving around very specific neutrals that power multiple decks.