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the old pokemon thread :(

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    StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    Nessie Lapras makes a huge amount of sense. it's kinda probable.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Dr. Chaos wrote: »
    Can't wait to see the amount of swagger this damn thing is going to have in the anime.

    Should be off the charts.

    I hope Ash gets one on his team for sure.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Provided they keep ash going forward.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    So on the topic of Ash
    (anime Sun/Moon spoilers)
    Ash finally won. He won the Alola league.

    Which I guess is neat that after 20+ years they finally let Ash win. But like, I still feel like XY was the series he should have won. That was the series where he had what is, in my opinion, the best / strongest team he's ever had, and he for sure had the best shot at winning. And yet they kept him in his perpetual loser status even with the strongest team he's ever had.

    And then he wins the Alola league. Which feels kinda hollow to me, to be honest. Alola, as a region, did not have a league. They had a fairly informal competitive scene that was run by a combination of Captains and Kahunas. But there was no structure to it, and definitely no Elite 4 or League Champion where you could definitively say that "this person is the best in this league."

    So giving Ash the very first ever Alola championship title, on the one hand is kinda special because he's the first person who will ever hold that title. But also... like... he didn't really go through the same level of competition to get there. I wouldn't call the kahunas anywhere close to the same level as Diantha, Stephen, or any of the other major league champions. It's kinda like playing in the major leagues, and then going to a country-bumpkin league and winning against a bunch of people who are competing at a much lower level.

    At least, that's my perception. It just feels like a very shallow victory to me.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    The anime has always been a vehicle to market the games, they've never really cared to give Ash and Co a well thought out character arc or give him a satisfying ending. I think with Sword and Shield being the first 'home' releases, they decided now was a good place to send him off and reboot the series. It's a shame, I'm very nostalgic for the series.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Are they for sure sending him off? Is there a source for that?

    And I mean, from a narrative standpoint I'm all for it. Bring in a fresh character that doesn't have 20 years of history and reboot.

    But from an outside perspective, looking at it from a marketing perspective and a dollars and cents perspective, Ash+Pikachu is synonymous with Pokemon. Can they replace him without completely tanking the franchise?

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It's the rumor, and the fact they finally let him win seems like a death flag to me. But the anime may continue, with maybe Ash taking a side character or backseat to new protags. I think it's unfair to Ash to always have him remain the same, he probably should have gone out a long time ago for a better arc. I mean Ash has a good run, he's been on TV 20 years and been in so many damn movies

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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    I saw this mentioned on Twitter - Sword version has an exclusive Fighting gym and an exclusive Fighting evolution of an old Pokemon. Shield has an exclusive Ghost gym - so will it also have an exclusive Ghost evolution?

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    ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    I didn't play USUM but it seems GameFreak went with a multiverse theme in a part of the story.

    I think that's a sign Pokémon needs to backtrack a little or needs a soft reboot due to all baggage.

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Oh for sure. The Ultra Dimension and Ultra Beasts, they went completely off the rails with Sun/Moon, and even moreso with USUM.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Tbh they should never have introduced alt forms. Like Deoxys was annoying enough but then with Megas I'm not sure I like it. And Alolan forms are neat as hell but further complicates the screed of "have to obtain each one"

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Don’t worry. You can’t.

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    IblisIblis Registered User regular
    Nessie Lapras makes a huge amount of sense. it's kinda probable.

    Think I recall one of the leaks suggesting Lapras would at least get a unique dynamax form.

    Steam Account, 3DS FC: 5129-1652-5160, Origin ID: DamusWolf
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    RussadRussad MARegistered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    I saw this mentioned on Twitter - Sword version has an exclusive Fighting gym and an exclusive Fighting evolution of an old Pokemon. Shield has an exclusive Ghost gym - so will it also have an exclusive Ghost evolution?

    Finally, the dead eeveelution friend I've always wanted.

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    TurambarTurambar Independent Registered User regular
    Evolves using a Gun Stone

    Steam: turamb | Origin: Turamb | 3DS: 3411-1109-4537 | NNID: Turambar | Warframe(PC): Turamb
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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    Qwilfish kills itself because no one likes it and becomes a Ghost type

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    TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    Sirfetched's Japanese name is freaking puntastic.

    Negiganaito is mixing the words negi (green onion), giga, and naito (knight) but the name read out loud would mean "If I don't have a green onion I'm screwed"

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
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    ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    Sounds like naginata too.

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
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    ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    I saw this mentioned on Twitter - Sword version has an exclusive Fighting gym and an exclusive Fighting evolution of an old Pokemon. Shield has an exclusive Ghost gym - so will it also have an exclusive Ghost evolution?

    Primeape evolves into Donkey Kong and throws barrels at the opponent.

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
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    Dr. ChaosDr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
    Anime should have left Ash behind a long time ago and just used new protags for every region.

    Show would be much better off creatively with main characters that are allowed to have some proper character development and a beginning, middle and an end to their story.

    Pokemon GO: 7113 6338 6875/ FF14: Buckle Landrunner /Steam Profile
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    TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    They could still have Ash, but instead have him take on the role that Red does in the games. Every season he makes a cameo sporting a new team + Pikachu.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
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    TDawgTDawg Registered User regular
    Part of me is sad that my little circle of Unredeemably Bad Single Stage Lame Pokemon has grown a little smaller...but Sirfetch'd is pretty cool and I am proud of the little guy. Keep at it, slugger!
    Dr. Chaos wrote: »
    Anime should have left Ash behind a long time ago and just used new protags for every region.

    Show would be much better off creatively with main characters that are allowed to have some proper character development and a beginning, middle and an end to their story.

    Eh, this role has been filled by Ash's companions. People complained that they got rid of Brock/Misty but their replacements have been able to be more distinct characters. In Sun/Moon his friends all are pretty distinct and have fleshed out lives. It's kind of like in the games where, as the silent protagonist you may be the "main character", but the real main character that the plot actually matters to and actually has character development is your rival (N) or friend (Lillie). Ash + Pikachu is a Marketing Thing at this point and Pokemon Company would have to be really dedicated to doing a "new thing" to ignore that, and I see no reason why the Pokemon anime wouldn't continue with Ash, they have no problem rebooting him during the first episode of every series and then just carrying on as if nothing ever happened in any other series

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I just don't see a world where Ash, whose one defining goal this whole time, was to win one of these dumb rigged tournaments, and he finally nails it after all this time... And that's not the end of his arc. Where else does his character have to go? He's hung out with literal pokegods, been nearly killed dozens of times, and almost all his supporting cast has had more character development over the whole series.

    I don't think it would be a hard reboot, it would still take place in the world of the anime. They've tried to make anime more faithful to the games before, and it worked out fine. Ash is not the mascot for Pokemon, Pikachu is. They didn't make a Detective Ash movie, it's always been about Pikachu. And you can bet whatever new protagonist shows up, he'll probably have one too.

    I don't think kids growing up with the show now have the same connection to Ash as the archetypical Pokemon trainer. It's funny to see the divergent paths Ash and Red took over the course of the anime vs the games. Red is infinitely cooler and badass, because he's actually a champion. He represents you, the player, who conquered that first game and stuck around for the rest of the games into adulthood. Ash represents stagnation, never evolving, never really improving, and even when he does the show just couldn't let him win. And that's a legit criticism to have of the show. Most shonen anime, the protagonist usually wins at least some of the time, so all the struggles they endured means something. Ash busts his ass and just loses up and down. I suppose maybe there's a lesson in there for kids about winning not being everything, but my God I just want this kid to grow up and have kids someday or something.

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    WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    I saw this mentioned on Twitter - Sword version has an exclusive Fighting gym and an exclusive Fighting evolution of an old Pokemon. Shield has an exclusive Ghost gym - so will it also have an exclusive Ghost evolution?

    Well, up until now I figured I'd be going with Sword. But now that there's a choice between a Fighting Gym and a Ghost Gym, I'm suddenly not so sure any more.

    But I'm probably still going Sword. Sword Wolf looks a lot cooler than Shield Wolf.

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    TamerBillTamerBill Registered User regular
    I just don't see a world where Ash, whose one defining goal this whole time, was to win one of these dumb rigged tournaments, and he finally nails it after all this time... And that's not the end of his arc.

    His one defining goal was to become a Pokemon Master, a nebulous term that's never actually defined, not to become a Champion.

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    TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    And here we see Pokemon meets Monster Hunter starring a team of lance wielders.

    7244qyoka3pp.gif
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    TamerBill wrote: »
    I just don't see a world where Ash, whose one defining goal this whole time, was to win one of these dumb rigged tournaments, and he finally nails it after all this time... And that's not the end of his arc.

    His one defining goal was to become a Pokemon Master, a nebulous term that's never actually defined, not to become a Champion.

    Uhhh what? In the original games when you beat Lance, he calls you a Pokemon Master. Isn't it just a title they give people who've won a League?

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    TamerBillTamerBill Registered User regular
    TamerBill wrote: »
    I just don't see a world where Ash, whose one defining goal this whole time, was to win one of these dumb rigged tournaments, and he finally nails it after all this time... And that's not the end of his arc.

    His one defining goal was to become a Pokemon Master, a nebulous term that's never actually defined, not to become a Champion.

    Uhhh what? In the original games when you beat Lance, he calls you a Pokemon Master. Isn't it just a title they give people who've won a League?

    Oh, huh, he does say something like that. That might be where the anime got it from.
    LANCE wrote:
    That's it! I hate to admit it, but you are a POKéMON master!
    I still can't believe my dragons lost to you, <PLAYER>!
    You are now the POKéMON LEAGUE champion!

    He's just using it as a description though, to say "you're really good at training pokémon". The actual title for beating him is Champion even back then.

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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Specifically regarding the anime, not the game version and Lance's interaction with Red, I think "Pokemon Master" is something that only Ash can define what it means. I also think it's a moving target that Ash does not even know what it truly means. It's a vague notion of self-improvement and a constant desire for new experiences, new challenges, and new bonds with Pokemon.

    Yes, Ash wants to win leagues, collect badges, and all that. But his notion of becoming a "Pokemon Master" seems to extend well beyond that. If I were to define it, I would say that Ash's definition would simply be "the journey" and until his journey ends, he will never be a Pokemon Master. It is very much not the destination in this case. It is about experiences.

    Lucascraft on
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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    I feel like Master and Champion are interchangeable. Specifically there are a few things that lead me to believe Ash is pretty much already at the status of Master, especially now thanks to his win. Here's my evidence:

    Firstly, he caught a legendary with Melmetal. Previously he's only every hung out with legendary Pokemon. If his goal was truly to catch every Pokemon, he botched his several chances to catch Mew, Mewtwo and Jirachi, and many other legendaries most people would never see in their lifetimes.

    Secondly, Ash is super bad at catching em all, and so are most of the trainers the anime shows us. He apparently went crazy that one time and caught like 30 Taurus, but never tried to catch rarer Pokemon even once. So I have to think, a complete Dex cannot be part of the requirements. And is it a complete regional, or national Dex? Do they even mention those in the anime? Who's keeping track?

    And lastly, I was looking around online, the original Japanese and English Dub have completely different dialogue for crucial scenes describing the requirements for being a master. Going even further, you have the new game called POKEMON MASTERS. That title kind of insinuates you get to play along and against your favorite Pokemon Masters... So every trainer featured in the game is considered a Master?? You're telling me every trainer featured completed the nebulous and ever changing definition of what it means to be a master? Or it could be that it's a meaningless thing they say all the time because Pokemon was never interested in exploring in the first place.

    As far as Ash is concerned, this is literally the most character development he's had for decades. He's been hilariously bad at battling this whole time, never understood type match-ups, usually lucked into a good team or had his friends help him out. Ash was never gonna be a master, he was never gonna get to the top the hill. This is probably as good as it gets for him, unless this new series pulls a Naruto Shippuden and timeskips to an adult, badass Ash. Wait... That would be sick.

    Local H Jay on
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    I would kill for a "teen" rated Pokemon anime. I'm not asking for like bad language, blood and guts, or anything like that. I'd just like to see the anime mature a little bit and maybe drop some of the stuff they do that is clearly targeted at kids.

    I could go my whole life without ever hearing Jesse and James recite their tired rhyme. Or just get rid of Jesse and James altogether because they are terrible characters who only serve to make every episode annoying for the moments they are present. Yes, there are a few times when the battles they have with Ash & Co are actually good battles. But most of the time it is just cartoonish villainy and lots and lots of ineptness for the sake of humor, which I could do without.

    And anyway, a Pokemon anime that strips out a lot of the tired tropes, and maybe adopts a more modern long-form storytelling format would be amazing.


    Also, I was thinking about this recently. With the Pokemon anime being 20+ years old at this point, it comes from a time when TV shows were written with a completely different set of standards and guidelines. Like "resetting the status quo" is a big part of old TV rules. Shows always had to set everything back to normal at the end of each episode. That's a hallmark of pretty much any show written before the story-focused era that shows like Heroes, LOST, and others from the early 2000's introduced.

    And even though the anime has continued well past those days, they still cling to the old way of doing things.

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    El FantasticoEl Fantastico Toronto, ONRegistered User regular
    Ash grows up, has an eyepatch for some reason, his red jacket is traded in for a red trenchcoat, and his ballcap is a little tattered at the edges.

    Pikachu is still Pikachu.

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I want him to be voiced by Jon DiMaggio

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    ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    I want him to be voiced by Jon DiMaggio

    "I'm gonna get my own Pokémon spin-off with blackjack and hookers."

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I want him to be voiced by Jon DiMaggio

    Ash? Or Pikachu?

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    Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Well now I want both

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    The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I would kill for a "teen" rated Pokemon anime. I'm not asking for like bad language, blood and guts, or anything like that. I'd just like to see the anime mature a little bit and maybe drop some of the stuff they do that is clearly targeted at kids.

    I could go my whole life without ever hearing Jesse and James recite their tired rhyme. Or just get rid of Jesse and James altogether because they are terrible characters who only serve to make every episode annoying for the moments they are present. Yes, there are a few times when the battles they have with Ash & Co are actually good battles. But most of the time it is just cartoonish villainy and lots and lots of ineptness for the sake of humor, which I could do without.

    Man what? Jesse & James are by far the best part of the anime. If they're making a more mature show I want them to be the focus.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
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    LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    They are the worst. Worse than Misty who is the worst.

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    The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    We can agree on Misty, at least.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
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    ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Were the manga spin-offs better?

    I recall reading a few chapters of one a long time ago. A little darker.

    Archsorcerer on
    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
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