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[The Elder Scrolls] Stolen? No! This one found this thread by the side of the road.

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  • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
    The problem isn't that people have criticisms of Bethesda and the Creation Club. It's the high level of hostility in that criticism.

    The Escape GoatPixelated Pixie
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Well it is well deserved. I don't know what else to say about it.

    Bethesda's PR people have not been very helpful in mitigating it and have been fantastically dismissive of fan concerns. Hell even WB, who I considered to be preeminent shitheels, respond to fan outrage with far more tact then Betehesda has shown and even recant and apologize from time to time.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    DerrickDr. Chaos
  • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Well it is well deserved. I don't know what else to say about it.

    Bethesda's PR people have not been very helpful in mitigating it and have been fantastically dismissive of fan concerns. Hell even WB, who I considered to be preeminent shitheels, respond to fan outrage with far more tact then Betehesda has shown and even recant and apologize from time to time.

    It's not. It's so very not.

    Pixelated Pixie
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    I'm not ready to say the sky is falling, but I'm worried about what this might mean for future games. It isn't unreasonable to think Bethesda might make it impossible (or at least very difficult) to use third party mod sites in the next Elder Scrolls.

    BionicPenguin on
    Massena
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    A lot of the complaints about the creation club are not deserved, really. As it stands right now the main issue is auto-downloading everything. If it didn't do that then people could just ignore it entirely and their experience would be entirely unchanged. It's only in the larger picture where things get (slightly) worrying, about where it might lead if this is just a first step.

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Dunno, honestly the shotgun in Fallout 4, the survival mode, the arrow pack, and the spell tome pack all seem pretty decent. The skyrim pack for the most part seems head and shoulders above the fallout one also, with no obvious crap like 50 cent pipboy skins or black armor textures.

    Edit: there are some mod compatibility issues though, and of course the modders are basically like "not our job to fix problems with paid content", which is their right.

    Jealous Deva on
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    I'm also iffy on the idea that Bethesda is obligated to continue putting their full support behind third party mods on the premise that their old games had huge modding scenes. I wouldn't like them to take that away, personally, but it's their product and their call. I'm not going to fault a content creator for going, you know what, can you please play the game we made instead of just remaking it in your image? There's an artistry to making games and huge open-ended modding takes away from that in a huge way.

    Hell, maybe the reason we haven't had a new Elder Scrolls game in so long is because the devs are like "who cares if we release a new game, it's going to be unrecognizable two months in after everyone has modded it to hell, just let them keep modding Skyrim." And thus ESO and the card game were born, as they put their time into projects where their actual work would be recognized.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    A lot of that is the shitty attitude that a lot of people have where they say their games are unplayable without mods. They really, really aren't. My first playthroughs of their games are always mod-free. It's just that mods are why I then continue to play for 950 more hours after I finish the first playthrough.

    It's the structure that people then build off of to make new things. Without the structure there wouldn't be any of those things, and it's crappy that people say that structure is garbage only the things built on it are good.

    I would love a new structure to explore, and then build on.

    The Escape GoatBionicPenguinProhass
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Mods are the difference between Skyrim being a very good game and it being one of my favourites. If Bethesda dropped mod support in future games, it wouldn't get me to stop buying their games, but I'd be disappointed.

    ElvenshaeSkeith
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    A lot of that is the shitty attitude that a lot of people have where they say their games are unplayable without mods. They really, really aren't. My first playthroughs of their games are always mod-free. It's just that mods are why I then continue to play for 950 more hours after I finish the first playthrough.

    It's the structure that people then build off of to make new things. Without the structure there wouldn't be any of those things, and it's crappy that people say that structure is garbage only the things built on it are good.

    I would love a new structure to explore, and then build on.

    Hard disagree.
    There's a bunch of fixing that exist whether you mod it or not. The Safety Load fix, for instance. So that the stupid game doesn't crash when entering a building. Fixes it whether modded or not. I'd say you absolutely need it. Unless you like having it bomb on you and having to restart.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    A lot of that is the shitty attitude that a lot of people have where they say their games are unplayable without mods. They really, really aren't. My first playthroughs of their games are always mod-free. It's just that mods are why I then continue to play for 950 more hours after I finish the first playthrough.

    It's the structure that people then build off of to make new things. Without the structure there wouldn't be any of those things, and it's crappy that people say that structure is garbage only the things built on it are good.

    I would love a new structure to explore, and then build on.

    Hard disagree.
    There's a bunch of fixing that exist whether you mod it or not. The Safety Load fix, for instance. So that the stupid game doesn't crash when entering a building. Fixes it whether modded or not. I'd say you absolutely need it. Unless you like having it bomb on you and having to restart.

    Considering I had never heard of that mod or that issue and still have 1014 hours in Skyrim I guess i'm in the latter camp.

    Not that it isn't a problem but you're making it universal based on your own experience.

    BionicPenguinTamerBillSorcha Ravenlock
  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Why do always have a pissing contest over who has played the most of the fucking game? Why the fuck does that prove anything at all?

    I get it. Some people don't mod and don't want to, and are happy. That's fine. You do you. You can deal with the crashy game all you want. I'll be over here with a game that doesn't crash.

  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    That wasn't at all the point of that post. They were saying they weren't experiencing the problem that mod fixes. Neither have I (after Bethesda made the game large address aware).

    BionicPenguin on
    Aistan
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Yeah that problem never happened to me with the original release or later releases, and I barely mod either. Never heard of that.

    I don't recall any time that Skyrim crashed when it wasn't just due to alt-tabbing. Maybe some mod fixes that, I don't know. But I just didn't alt-tab and it was fine.

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  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Sorry if that sounds snide, and that wasn't directed at anyone here. I just notice that it ALWAYS comes up - how many hours of suffering through the game you've got listed.


    And a mod can be absolutely necessary. Just because you don't know about it means maybe you've just gotten used to it crashing through loads. Some kind of Stockholm Syndrome. Or whatever.

    I personally like my game to not crash. I don't really believe I should have to pay Bethesda $8 to get it fixed through a mod because they won't. Or $8 to have to have my mouse work correctly. Or fix the shadow striping.

    Really, it comes down to how much do you want to pay? Should you have to pay Bethesda to have others fix their bugs that they're too lazy to fix? I'm not even talking the unofficial patch. Just the simple tiny bug fixes like that. Should a customer have to pay $5-8 each for those little fixes?

    L Ron Howard on
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    I'm also iffy on the idea that Bethesda is obligated to continue putting their full support behind third party mods on the premise that their old games had huge modding scenes. I wouldn't like them to take that away, personally, but it's their product and their call. I'm not going to fault a content creator for going, you know what, can you please play the game we made instead of just remaking it in your image? There's an artistry to making games and huge open-ended modding takes away from that in a huge way.
    Dropping mod support would be relative suicide for the franchise. Skyrim was a top-selling game on Steam for 5 straight years, and mods are a major reason for that. The mod community keeps people talking about the game long-term. It keeps it on Twitch and on Youtube. It keeps it on Facebook and on Twitter. And that keeps an steady stream of new players hearing about and buying it, even if they do not go on to mod the game themselves. Zenimax has damaged the community over the past year, and you can already start to see that being reflected in sales of Skyrim SE and FO4. A theoretical TES release with no official mod support would likely sell for 3 months and vanish, like every other AAA release. That's probably not going to be sustainable for the 4-5 year development cycles that Bethesda's current games are usually on, especially if they become less weird and ambitious as a result.
    Hell, maybe the reason we haven't had a new Elder Scrolls game in so long is because the devs are like "who cares if we release a new game, it's going to be unrecognizable two months in after everyone has modded it to hell, just let them keep modding Skyrim." And thus ESO and the card game were born, as they put their time into projects where their actual work would be recognized.
    No, TES was pretty much always meant to be malleable and collaborative. Many of the older creative leads have even referred to the property as open source. ESO was a publisher mandate, and was developed by an entirely different studio.
    Aistan wrote: »
    Aistan wrote: »
    A lot of that is the shitty attitude that a lot of people have where they say their games are unplayable without mods. They really, really aren't. My first playthroughs of their games are always mod-free. It's just that mods are why I then continue to play for 950 more hours after I finish the first playthrough.

    It's the structure that people then build off of to make new things. Without the structure there wouldn't be any of those things, and it's crappy that people say that structure is garbage only the things built on it are good.

    I would love a new structure to explore, and then build on.

    Hard disagree.
    There's a bunch of fixing that exist whether you mod it or not. The Safety Load fix, for instance. So that the stupid game doesn't crash when entering a building. Fixes it whether modded or not. I'd say you absolutely need it. Unless you like having it bomb on you and having to restart.

    Considering I had never heard of that mod or that issue and still have 1014 hours in Skyrim I guess i'm in the latter camp.

    Not that it isn't a problem but you're making it universal based on your own experience.
    You're pretty lucky if you've never hit an infinite loading screen. That is probably the single most common and well documented bug in the game, all the way back to release day. In the early days, something like half of the threads on Steam were just people complaining about infinite loads. There are probably posts about it on these very forums. Maybe even from people other than me. 'Infinite loading screen' used to autocomplete if you typed 'Skyrim' into Google. I would call it widespread.
    Yeah that problem never happened to me with the original release or later releases, and I barely mod either. Never heard of that.

    I don't recall any time that Skyrim crashed when it wasn't just due to alt-tabbing. Maybe some mod fixes that, I don't know. But I just didn't alt-tab and it was fine.
    The alt-tab fix was to run in borderless windowed mode. I want to say that ENBoost or one of the (many) other fixes to Skyrim's memory management also fixed alt-tabbing.

    L Ron HowardElvenshae
  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Registered User regular
    Yeah that problem never happened to me with the original release or later releases, and I barely mod either. Never heard of that.

    I don't recall any time that Skyrim crashed when it wasn't just due to alt-tabbing. Maybe some mod fixes that, I don't know. But I just didn't alt-tab and it was fine.

    Honestly, here of all places I'd think we could be above the, "It never happened to me so I don't see the problem!". Look it up, as Monger mentioned it's a problem a huge number of people had, and it's fixed not by Bethesda, but by a mod some dude made for free. You don't know about it because you in particular didn't have the problem, but I guarantee that if you did have that crash or infinite loading screen, you'd probably have Goggled the issue, found the mod, and be using it right now.

    Or else you'd have dealt with it, as sometimes you could get past the issue with enough reloads. Or quit playing the game.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    I specifically said it was a problem if other people were running into it.

    But I never did, in all that time. Yes i'd crash various places but it was never consistent and a lot were probably caused by mods in the first place. I don't remember a single infinite loading screen though, so it's not universal. Which is all I said. Even that mod itself says there's a chance the fix won't work for you or may even make it worse, so they don't seem to know what the problem is either. Please don't psychoanalyze me or attribute some kind of ulterior motive.

    Aistan on
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Yeah, it was a problem. Even worse than that was when loading screens just became inexplicably longer the older your save was. Probably the same root cause.

    Unofficial patch fixes like that often find their way into the official patches. So the paid mods thing kinda hits that from both areas.

    a) you either pay for a mod that should be a bug fix
    b) that mod never gets made, and Bethesda then never does the bug fix at all

    They could have done paid DLC (not mods, DLC) and it could have been great. But no. They went with this dumb shit (again) and they're going to get a ton of shit for it, and rightly so.

    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Bethesda is working hard to neuter the community that was created around fixing its games and expanding them beyond all conceivable imagination because they are upset that they aren't getting money from it(you know, ignoring the profits from people buying all their fucking games to begin with because of *gasp* mods and modding, i would be hard money on the fact sells more games than their brilliant ability to produce buggy games).

    Its not that hard to imagine that this is a first step into trying to coerce people into using the creation club, and people have every right to be outraged about it. We spend our time and money on these games, we are invested in these world, and when they produce a subpar product or make a terrible design or corporate choice, they should be held accountable. Thats not god damn entitlement, thats consumers speaking and telling the company to go fuck off its not gonna get our money as long as its doing stupid shit because we wont reward them trying to screw us. Go support the mod devs directly if you can, cause you can donate a lot less, and the mod devs will get 100% of the money you give them, Vs whatever nebulous amount they get from Bethesda after taking their huge cut.

    I would say speak with your pocket books and dont buy the creation club shit or their next game, cause if they see their profit plummet like a boulder off a cliff, they'll change their way and go back to doing what the customers want and what makes them money.. but I know gamers all to well to know how well expecting them to not buy the new hotness works out now matter how fuckawful it is or the company making it treats them.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Honestly, here of all places I'd think we could be above the, "It never happened to me so I don't see the problem!".

    I never said that, I just said I didn't have the problem, echoing others around here. Nothing else was implied by that.

    However I did think here of all places we could be above the "look, I know it's down to preference, some people just enjoy really shitty terrible things." We don't enjoy terrible things. We enjoy unmodded Skyrim which is a great game. It's faux agree-to-disagree with some superiority thrown in. It's like saying "oh I know some people don't use Monster Cables and just enjoy listening to clearly inferior audio, that's fine, that's their preference to be uncultured."

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    My concern is that some of the anger I'm seeing is about something that Bethesda might do, maybe, in the future. I understand looking at trends and extrapolating and predicting, and getting upset about possible futures (especially probable futures), but I would prefer to see if they become reality before railing against Bethesda.

    For now, I'm content to rail against them for auto-downloading the Creative Club assets on PCs (which is just so phenomenally dumb).

  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Honestly, here of all places I'd think we could be above the, "It never happened to me so I don't see the problem!".

    I never said that, I just said I didn't have the problem, echoing others around here. Nothing else was implied by that.

    However I did think here of all places we could be above the "look, I know it's down to preference, some people just enjoy really shitty terrible things." We don't enjoy terrible things. We enjoy unmodded Skyrim which is a great game. It's faux agree-to-disagree with some superiority thrown in. It's like saying "oh I know some people don't use Monster Cables and just enjoy listening to clearly inferior audio, that's fine, that's their preference to be uncultured."

    It's cool if you like Skyrim without mods, and I don't disagree that it's still a good game without them. However, it's an objectively inferior way to play, because without mods the game is littered with bugs and unfinished/clunky UI that kind folks out there have completely overhauled and fixed, for absolutely free. You gain no high horse by not taking advantage of those things, but it's absolutely your right to do so.
    Delduwath wrote: »
    My concern is that some of the anger I'm seeing is about something that Bethesda might do, maybe, in the future. I understand looking at trends and extrapolating and predicting, and getting upset about possible futures (especially probable futures), but I would prefer to see if they become reality before railing against Bethesda.

    For now, I'm content to rail against them for auto-downloading the Creative Club assets on PCs (which is just so phenomenally dumb).

    You make a good point, and I see where you're coming from, but I would say that even the anger at what is potential is not un-founded, given what we keep seeing Bethesda do and then how they try to pass it off as if they are completely innocent of greed and malice as they starkly do the absolute bare minimum to get the most profit. The Creation Club literally cannot contain any grand, complicated mods both because the .ESL files have severe limitations on them, and because all CC mods have to be identical between all supported platforms. Then you again have them making the most obnoxious choice of using 'virtual currency', which has no purpose whatsoever except to extract more money from customers. Because apparently VC is required by 'Triple A' culture nowadays, and Bethesda/Zenimax want to get in on the plunder.

    Trying to predict the next outrage is perhaps not the most useful exercise, but it's hard not to become cynical in the face of what's going on, so following this to its logical conclusion is just something we end up doing.

    Toxic Pickle on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    I hate to resurrect a dormant topic like this, but I've recently reinstalled and have been mucking about with Skyrim again since I heard that SKSE for it is finally in a workable state.

    However, I've been running into a problem with SKSE64 and Mod Organizer 2.x, namely that when I try to launch SKSE through MO2, it loads up what is basically modless vanilla Skyrim, and never wants to recognize what I have enabled through MO.

    Anyone else using SKSE64 with Mod Organizer encountered this?

    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Possibly a failed Archive Invalidation?

  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Do you have Mod Organizer set to launch the SKSE executable instead of the default Skyrim one? Alternately did you rename the base Skyrim executable so that SKSE is the default?

    EDIT: And didn't the creation club stuff totally dick up SKSE since it alters the executable every time creation club gets an update? Or was that changed to play nice? Or was it a misunderstanding from the get-go. I recall it being an issue right when that stuff went live.

    The Dude With Herpes on
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  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    Nope, I am a big ol' giant dummy and I figured out what it was. In my SKSE launch option thing through Mod Organizer, I had both the Binary path as well as the "Start in" path filled, when I was only supposed to have Binary. As soon as I nixed "Start in" everything worked fine.

    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
    Anon the FelonCommander ZoomL Ron HowardElvenshae
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I thought the current skse64 release was just for modmakers to familiarize themselves with it, and not for general use?

    Regardless, I'm actually shocked it released at all.

    Buttcleft on
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited November 2017
    The SKSE team says very explicitly that the current release is alpha and not intended for general use, but as soon as SkyUI got an update for it, enough people are assumed to be using it anyway that people are starting to port over their SKSE-requiring stuff.

    Regardless, it seems to work just fine so far. I imagine people who are running with far larger mod setups than I would have more crashing problems, but I tend to keep a fairly lean install.

    korodullin on
    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    well SkyrimSE just got an update.

    Which i imagine breaks skse64. So much for trying that.

    edit
    Better still, it was a patch almost entirely for creation club bullshit. for fucks sake.

    edit2
    Apparently its causing a CTD and broken the game for a lot of non-modded people too.

    But thats okay, had to push out the creation club update.

    Buttcleft on
    Commander Zoom
  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Registered User regular
    Do you have Mod Organizer set to launch the SKSE executable instead of the default Skyrim one? Alternately did you rename the base Skyrim executable so that SKSE is the default?

    EDIT: And didn't the creation club stuff totally dick up SKSE since it alters the executable every time creation club gets an update? Or was that changed to play nice? Or was it a misunderstanding from the get-go. I recall it being an issue right when that stuff went live.

    With respect to your edit, yes each time the Creation Club is updated, even if it's just to add more content, that also updates the executable of the game. It changes the version and screws up the script extender, forcing that team to put out an update before it will work again. This happens in FO4 as well since CC launched.

    AistanAxen
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    So this sucks.

  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Registered User regular
    So this sucks.

    You'll need to be more specific. There's lots of suck going on these days.

    If it's in regard to the Creation Club ruining everything, well there is at least a solution on how to roll back your game version.

    tl;dr on that link:
    1) close steam, add -console to the end of the target box in your steam shortcut, restart steam
    2) press win+R, paste: steam://nav/console
    3) in steam console, paste: download_depot 489830 489833 911281757511576655
    4) the v1.5.3 exe will download to [...]steamapps/content/app_489830/depot_489833

    Also, make sure to always set Steam to only update when you start the game. Then, only start the game through the SKSE64 launcher which will not trigger Steam to update. That way, you can hold out until the SKSE team rolls out their update before you let Steam go ahead with updating the game.

    Anon the FelonSyngyne
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Well, now I need to get mods sorted! Thank you!

  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Is it still true that I don't want the Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch due to a lot of personal changes made by those developers? They've got all these notices on the mod page about not supporting older game versions, but that's the only way I can get SKSE64 to work which is necessary for SkyUI...

    I gotta be honest, with these two different versions of Skyrim, the entire mod scene is fairly impenetrable.

    Edit: I guess the version I rolled back to was 1.5.3? Ug.

    Anon the Felon on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    For the most part you probably aren't going to notice the personal changes one way or the other.

    There are a couple of weird things like swapping the cave bear and regular bear colors (which the skins are swapped in that the brown is named bear and black is named cavebear, but I think it's pretty obvious someone made the skins then decided to swap them since brown bears are bigger in real life than black bears, but I digress). All pretty minor though.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    I think the changes are pretty stupid but I'm very much a purist when it comes to fan patches.

    Anon the FelonDerrick
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    If you don't know or care about the specific changes being made and are just using mods that suggest you use the fan patch along with them, go right ahead. You'll be fine.

    If you want to curate every single thing that every mod you are installing is changing yourself, then absolutely not. If they had two versions, the bugfix version and the nitpicky personal preference version that would be one thing, but they combine it all together and there's no telling how it might conflict with other mods you install at the same time.

    Commander Zoom
  • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
    Supposedly the recent patches to Skyrim/Fallout 4 made it so Creation Club updates won't break the script extender any more.

  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    If you don't know or care about the specific changes being made and are just using mods that suggest you use the fan patch along with them, go right ahead. You'll be fine.

    If you want to curate every single thing that every mod you are installing is changing yourself, then absolutely not. If they had two versions, the bugfix version and the nitpicky personal preference version that would be one thing, but they combine it all together and there's no telling how it might conflict with other mods you install at the same time.

    Most mods, at least in old Skyrim, seemed to assume that people were using the Unofficial patches and, even if they didn't specifically require them, made changes with them in mind. It seems pretty much understood that those modding Skyrim will want the patches because one of the first things most people mod Skyrim for is to iron out Bethesda's awful code. Obviously this is not universal, however.

    I empathize with those who think the Unofficial patches go too far, and personally would prefer they only fix things that are actually broken as opposed to changing things that are clearly preference, but ultimately I've never felt strongly enough about any of the changes to warrant my not installing the patches.
    McHoger wrote: »
    Supposedly the recent patches to Skyrim/Fallout 4 made it so Creation Club updates won't break the script extender any more.

    This is correct. Supposedly, the latest update finally changed the structure so that Creation Club updates are handled by another file instead of being packaged in the game executable. Why this wasn't done from the start is baffling, but at least they finally got around to addressing it.

    ElvenshaeCommander Zoom
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