They already explained the phone app for chat business, and their explanation makes sense to me. If the device is marketed as allowing you to play games "on the go", then it makes sense to do chat through a phone app, which allows for mobile chat.
That part just does not make sense to me. If I am playing games online, even if I am 'on the go', in what universe is having to handle yet another device more convenient then just handling voice chat through the thing that I am already using that already has an internet connection? If I am 'on the go' do I want to be burning up my phone's battery for the sake of video games? Do I want to have to find a way to hold both the switch and my phone when I need to fiddle with the app while I'm walking around?
Yeah, that's a good point. They could just be cutting corners.
I'm gonna lol when you have to buy the chat app because Nintendo.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
I think I want, like, some kind of infographic where the Nintendo Switch is like a banquet hall. Put a giant roaring hearth in the background with prominent Switch right on the mantle there.
The dining table has a long red tablecloth, and, over time, kind of like an advent calendar, more dishes are added to the table, and each dish a game that has been released for the Switch. The quality/importance of each game would determine the dish that it is positioned with. Zelda, for instance, could be a huge Christmas turkey, set in the center of the table, being the first 'big' release, and first title of the Switch's life. Has Been Heroes, meanwhile, could be a modest bowl of jello cubes. Over time, new games, new dishes.
(In this presentation, Skyrim upon release would likely be presented as half of a cold pepperoni pizza, wrapped in tinfoil, with a side of hot wings.)
This would serve as a visual representation of the system's overall support, health, and ability to interest new players. Just...look at the table, see what's there...or what isn't.
I was wondering when we'd finally get a food analogy. :P
3. Their strategy of offering free games temporarily makes them look stingy. They can try all they want to explain that, actually, it's not stingy, if you think about it. But that is not in a thousand years going to work.
I think I found a scenario it could work just above. If the service is $30 a year, and one of the sub discounts you get is 80% off the game of the month, then it's equivalent to paying ~$54 a year with a free game every month, but with the benefit of saving some money if you choose not to buy it.
The other services offer free games for $60 a year, with no option to pay less if you don't want those particular games.
But that is contingent on some very good pricing decisions.
This is a glass half full / half empty scenario.
Another way of looking at is this: If I'm on a service where I pay a flat yearly rate and get a bunch of free games, and I want only 2 out of 10 of them, then I still have only paid the flat rate. This is a service with free gifts. If I'm on a second service that charges a flat yearly rate, and it offers me 10 games with an 80% discount, and I want two of them, then I still have paid more than my yearly rate. This is a service with coupons.
What the yearly rate actually *is* will be a huge factor of course. If the second service flat yearly rate is significantly lower, then hey alright. If it's the same as the first service or only marginally less, then eff that noise.
I can count on one hand the number of the free games I've gotten from Xbox Live Gold that I have actually played.
It's not much of a value if I get a lot of things I don't play.
Does that mean that Nintendo should be this backwards about it? No. I just don't feel like the free games thing is as much of a value for most people as it's touted to be.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
edit: also the PSN free games have been awesome. I don't have an xbox but I've loved the free PSN stuff pretty often.
SniperGuy on
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
(In this presentation, Skyrim upon release would likely be presented as half of a cold pepperoni pizza, wrapped in tinfoil, with a side of hot wings.)
Hah! When you unfold the tin foil to see the pizza inside, the slices clip through the foil and the hot wings start to spin and flop around despite not being touched... now I want hot wings.
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
3. Their strategy of offering free games temporarily makes them look stingy. They can try all they want to explain that, actually, it's not stingy, if you think about it. But that is not in a thousand years going to work.
I think I found a scenario it could work just above. If the service is $30 a year, and one of the sub discounts you get is 80% off the game of the month, then it's equivalent to paying ~$54 a year with a free game every month, but with the benefit of saving some money if you choose not to buy it.
The other services offer free games for $60 a year, with no option to pay less if you don't want those particular games.
But that is contingent on some very good pricing decisions.
This is a glass half full / half empty scenario.
Another way of looking at is this: If I'm on a service where I pay a flat yearly rate and get a bunch of free games, and I want only 2 out of 10 of them, then I still have only paid the flat rate. This is a service with free gifts. If I'm on a second service that charges a flat yearly rate, and it offers me 10 games with an 80% discount, and I want two of them, then I still have paid more than my yearly rate. This is a service with coupons.
What the yearly rate actually *is* will be a huge factor of course. If the second service flat yearly rate is significantly lower, then hey alright. If it's the same as the first service or only marginally less, then eff that noise.
Hmm, I don't find that a really compelling counterpoint. The price you end up paying is all that matters.
Using the logic of "flat rate with free gifts" being better than "service with coupons," you could say that $100 a year with a free game a month would be better than $10 a year with a $1 game every month, all else being equal.
I think if the comparison ends up with a similar value to other services, it doesn't matter if its flat with gifts or service with coupons. What you spend is what matters, which you did say is a big factor.
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
I guess I'm just annoyed because I work in IT where everyone thinks things are magic and they're really not. Without understanding the design of the system and the reasoning we can't know.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Now I am picturing 2 people playing a game on one Switch, each with their own headsets, in the same room with someone else playing on their own Switch with a headset, connecting online to play against another group of people somewhere who are playing 4 player on one Switch on their TV, two with joycons and two with pro controllers, all of them with their own headsets.
At the end of the day, Playstation Plus gives me 6 free games a month (since I own all 3 systems). It costs $5 a month with the yearly sub, but I have never actually payed more than ~$3. That is what Nintendo is competing with, and no number of discounts is going to be enough on it's own. This is completely ignoring the fact that PS+ also has discounts. Pretty good ones too, that still apply when the game is on sale normally (which, you know, is something that actually happens on the PSN).
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Joycon bandwidth has nothing to do with a microphone being built into the system. Or the headphone jack having an extra pole for a headset. These things are not particularly expensive or difficult to implement for the vast majority of devices. It is very possible they left it out to save on cost, just like they left the internal memory at 32gb, but none of those choices are particularly good ones for consumers. There are tons of solutions to these problems that don't require you to have a smartphone handy. I am not acting like all tech is the same, I am saying that the choices Nintendo has made don't make sense based on current technology. The Switch doesn't have some super ultra special design that keeps it from having a way to stick a microphone into it. It is a deliberate choice Nintendo made.
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Joycon bandwidth has nothing to do with a microphone being built into the system. Or the headphone jack having an extra pole for a headset. These things are not particularly expensive or difficult to implement for the vast majority of devices. It is very possible they left it out to save on cost, just like they left the internal memory at 32gb, but none of those choices are particularly good ones for consumers. There are tons of solutions to these problems that don't require you to have a smartphone handy. I am not acting like all tech is the same, I am saying that the choices Nintendo has made don't make sense based on current technology. The Switch doesn't have some super ultra special design that keeps it from having a way to stick a microphone into it. It is a deliberate choice Nintendo made.
I didn't say that. Where do you put the port when you've got the system docked and you are playing from the couch?
What I am saying is that is probably where the technical problem came in if there is one.
Seidkona on
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
I guess I'm just annoyed because I work in IT where everyone thinks things are magic and they're really not. Without understanding the design of the system and the reasoning we can't know.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
I also work in IT. Given their previous systems I'm not sure how you can discount laziness! Nintendo has always been a huge slacker when it comes to online stuff and voice chat is no different. There are logical conclusions we can draw from what we do know and lack of voice chat being built in is just weird. It is very difficult to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt for stuff when they have a history of being terrible in this area, seemingly on purpose.
I guess I'm just annoyed because I work in IT where everyone thinks things are magic and they're really not. Without understanding the design of the system and the reasoning we can't know.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
I also work in IT. Given their previous systems I'm not sure how you can discount laziness! Nintendo has always been a huge slacker when it comes to online stuff and voice chat is no different. There are logical conclusions we can draw from what we do know and lack of voice chat being built in is just weird. It is very difficult to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt for stuff when they have a history of being terrible in this area, seemingly on purpose.
I'm not going to argue it anymore. It could be either and we simply don't know.
I just don't think assigning motives to them is fair when we don't actually know.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
At the end of the day, Playstation Plus gives me 6 free games a month (since I own all 3 systems). It costs $5 a month with the yearly sub, but I have never actually payed more than ~$3. That is what Nintendo is competing with, and no number of discounts is going to be enough on it's own. This is completely ignoring the fact that PS+ also has discounts. Pretty good ones too, that still apply when the game is on sale normally (which, you know, is something that actually happens on the PSN).
Microsoft's Gold also gives you discounts in addition to the free games, so those sorts of bonuses are kind of the established baseline for a paid online console experience that Nintendo will be judged on.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I guess I'm just annoyed because I work in IT where everyone thinks things are magic and they're really not. Without understanding the design of the system and the reasoning we can't know.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
I also work in IT. Given their previous systems I'm not sure how you can discount laziness! Nintendo has always been a huge slacker when it comes to online stuff and voice chat is no different. There are logical conclusions we can draw from what we do know and lack of voice chat being built in is just weird. It is very difficult to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt for stuff when they have a history of being terrible in this area, seemingly on purpose.
I'm not going to argue it anymore. It could be either and we simply don't know.
I just don't think assigning motives to them is fair when we don't actually know.
I'm not assigning a motive, just saying Nintendo is terrible in this area and passing it off as "oh that's just a technical hurdle" when there's no indication that it's anything of the sort, especially given all the other things that have problem with this kind of stuff, seems silly to me.
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Joycon bandwidth has nothing to do with a microphone being built into the system. Or the headphone jack having an extra pole for a headset. These things are not particularly expensive or difficult to implement for the vast majority of devices. It is very possible they left it out to save on cost, just like they left the internal memory at 32gb, but none of those choices are particularly good ones for consumers. There are tons of solutions to these problems that don't require you to have a smartphone handy. I am not acting like all tech is the same, I am saying that the choices Nintendo has made don't make sense based on current technology. The Switch doesn't have some super ultra special design that keeps it from having a way to stick a microphone into it. It is a deliberate choice Nintendo made.
I didn't say that. Where do you put the port when you've got the system docked and you are playing from the couch?
What I am saying is that is probably where the technical problem came in if there is one.
You know, that's a good point. I hadn't considered that issue - this gives me hope that voice chat on the Switch is possible in portable mode but in home console mode you'll use your smartphone. I'd be OK with this.
PS4 controllers are bluetooth based and have zero issue transmitting the data required for both gamepad input and voice.
And While I will say that it's entirely possible that joycons take more bandwidth by themselves than a PS4 controller, I think people who think that's an issue are vastly overestimating the amount of bandwidth required to transmit gamepad inputs.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, and it is fact. Including the ability to use your phone as a way to do friends management, matchmaking, voicechat, hell even an online store is a fantastic idea. Microsoft does this. Sony does this. They both work really well, It is a great experience. In both cases those are designed in addition to that base functionality that exists on the console.
Not having basic functionality of being able to turn on the Switch, see which of your friends are online, and join a game/voice chat with them on the Switch is inexcusable, and frankly, a complete miss. Requiring people to pick up a separate device to do so is absurd. And Nintendo trying to spin it that they did this so it would be eaiser for people who want to play online "on the go" is even more absurd because that means that you have another device you have to manage while you're "on the go"
Having the functionality in the app is great, and I'm sure I will enjoy that. Using that as an excuse not to have that functionality in the actual game console is a number of steps past absurd.
I guess I'm just annoyed because I work in IT where everyone thinks things are magic and they're really not. Without understanding the design of the system and the reasoning we can't know.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
I also work in IT. Given their previous systems I'm not sure how you can discount laziness! Nintendo has always been a huge slacker when it comes to online stuff and voice chat is no different. There are logical conclusions we can draw from what we do know and lack of voice chat being built in is just weird. It is very difficult to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt for stuff when they have a history of being terrible in this area, seemingly on purpose.
As someone else working in IT who has dabbled with game creation, I would never call anyone involved with that process "lazy." It may be lacking in some features, but not due to laziness. Their devs are not over there sleeping at their desks for any reason other than being expected to work long hours to figure this stuff out. Call it weird or incompetent if you like, but not lazy. This applies to the other console manufacturers and development teams as well.
Plus we already went over this idea that "Nintendo is bad at online" which has been wrong for ages now. You thought the Wii U still used friend codes. Most of what they've done has met or exceeded standards, with the notable exception being the account/ownership system. The eShop works. Online play is smooth. Downloads and updates are smooth. DLC is handled properly. They've proven that they know what they're doing in this area, and up to now, it was all free.
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Joycon bandwidth has nothing to do with a microphone being built into the system. Or the headphone jack having an extra pole for a headset. These things are not particularly expensive or difficult to implement for the vast majority of devices. It is very possible they left it out to save on cost, just like they left the internal memory at 32gb, but none of those choices are particularly good ones for consumers. There are tons of solutions to these problems that don't require you to have a smartphone handy. I am not acting like all tech is the same, I am saying that the choices Nintendo has made don't make sense based on current technology. The Switch doesn't have some super ultra special design that keeps it from having a way to stick a microphone into it. It is a deliberate choice Nintendo made.
I didn't say that. Where do you put the port when you've got the system docked and you are playing from the couch?
What I am saying is that is probably where the technical problem came in if there is one.
You know, that's a good point. I hadn't considered that issue - this gives me hope that voice chat on the Switch is possible in portable mode but in home console mode you'll use your smartphone. I'd be OK with this.
They specifically said they don't want you to have to carry around a "bulky gamer headset" which is why they came up with the smartphone thing for on the go.
Huh, so it's not just speech through the phone app but matchmaking and lobbies too?
We have a few online games coming out before the paid service begins, so no, matchmaking will probably be handled by the games as they have been. The online service site makes a point of separating 'online play' from the app stuff, so I think we're in the clear on basic matchmaking. Making your own lobbies and voice chat, well that seems app-based. Won't defend or comment on that.
Reggie quote:
The smart phone app that we’re creating, that will be part of our online service, we believe is going to be a very compelling part of the overall proposition because that’s how you’ll voice chat, that’s how you’ll do your matchmaking, and create your lobby. We also think it’s a very elegant solution because if you’ve taken your switch on the go, you’ve put yourself in a hotspot, you’re looking at get a quick match of Mario Kart in, to whip out some sort of bulky, gamer headset is a bit of a challenge.
So we think we’ve got an elegant solution. That’s a very specific answer to your question.
Any new word about Amiibo functionality in Breath of The Wild? I see some drop fish or meat, and I think the TP one drops a wolf to help in game? I see a lot of articles about the new series of BotW figures, but no mention of what exactly they do. Should I be adding one to my preorder?
At the end of the day, Playstation Plus gives me 6 free games a month (since I own all 3 systems). It costs $5 a month with the yearly sub, but I have never actually payed more than ~$3. That is what Nintendo is competing with, and no number of discounts is going to be enough on it's own. This is completely ignoring the fact that PS+ also has discounts. Pretty good ones too, that still apply when the game is on sale normally (which, you know, is something that actually happens on the PSN).
Microsoft's Gold also gives you discounts in addition to the free games, so those sorts of bonuses are kind of the established baseline for a paid online console experience that Nintendo will be judged on.
I guess I'm just annoyed because I work in IT where everyone thinks things are magic and they're really not. Without understanding the design of the system and the reasoning we can't know.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
I also work in IT. Given their previous systems I'm not sure how you can discount laziness! Nintendo has always been a huge slacker when it comes to online stuff and voice chat is no different. There are logical conclusions we can draw from what we do know and lack of voice chat being built in is just weird. It is very difficult to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt for stuff when they have a history of being terrible in this area, seemingly on purpose.
As someone else working in IT who has dabbled with game creation, I would never call anyone involved with that process "lazy." It may be lacking in some features, but not due to laziness. Their devs are not over there sleeping at their desks for any reason other than being expected to work long hours to figure this stuff out. Call it weird or incompetent if you like, but not lazy. This applies to the other console manufacturers and development teams as well.
Plus we already went over this idea that "Nintendo is bad at online" which has been wrong for ages now. You thought the Wii U still used friend codes. Most of what they've done has met or exceeded standards, with the notable exception being the account/ownership system. The eShop works. Online play is smooth. Downloads and updates are smooth. DLC is handled properly. They've proven that they know what they're doing in this area, and up to now, it was all free.
I would highly disagree that their online systems meet or exceed standards. The 3DS has been a mess with that stuff, and though I don't own a Wii U, they're still missing a lot of the stuff that other systems have from what I can see. The account/ownership system alone is a huge black mark. Laziness to me is them saying "Well we could spend an extra buck and put this hardware in here, or we could just make a smartphone app. Everyone has a smartphone right?"
I mean obviously we still need more detail but this kind of stuff just seems like a trainwreck.
Nintendo has given themselves the reputation of being bad online. It is up to them to fix it for people who are comparing them to their competitors. Can I make a system level party with friends in their online services? Are there achievement type systems? The few 3DS things I tried to play online were awful messes. Maybe the Wii U is amazing or something but that certainly isn't the prevailing opinion that I've seen.
PS4 controllers are bluetooth based and have zero issue transmitting the data required for both gamepad input and voice.
And While I will say that it's entirely possible that joycons take more bandwidth by themselves than a PS4 controller, I think people who think that's an issue are vastly overestimating the amount of bandwidth required to transmit gamepad inputs.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, and it is fact. Including the ability to use your phone as a way to do friends management, matchmaking, voicechat, hell even an online store is a fantastic idea. Microsoft does this. Sony does this. They both work really well, It is a great experience. In both cases those are designed in addition to that base functionality that exists on the console.
Not having basic functionality of being able to turn on the Switch, see which of your friends are online, and join a game/voice chat with them on the Switch is inexcusable, and frankly, a complete miss. Requiring people to pick up a separate device to do so is absurd. And Nintendo trying to spin it that they did this so it would be eaiser for people who want to play online "on the go" is even more absurd because that means that you have another device you have to manage while you're "on the go"
Having the functionality in the app is great, and I'm sure I will enjoy that. Using that as an excuse not to have that functionality in the actual game console is a number of steps past absurd.
We've also seen that the Joycons are quite a bit smaller than the PS4 controller and that we do not know the HD rumble requirements, how it effects the bandwith needs, or what kind of interferance it creates. I could be wrong but sometimes this stuff surprises us.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
We have no idea as to the engineering of the system. I mean it's nice to wish that bandwidth and power requirements are different but. . .
If it's technical it's technical.
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
Joycon bandwidth has nothing to do with a microphone being built into the system. Or the headphone jack having an extra pole for a headset. These things are not particularly expensive or difficult to implement for the vast majority of devices. It is very possible they left it out to save on cost, just like they left the internal memory at 32gb, but none of those choices are particularly good ones for consumers. There are tons of solutions to these problems that don't require you to have a smartphone handy. I am not acting like all tech is the same, I am saying that the choices Nintendo has made don't make sense based on current technology. The Switch doesn't have some super ultra special design that keeps it from having a way to stick a microphone into it. It is a deliberate choice Nintendo made.
I didn't say that. Where do you put the port when you've got the system docked and you are playing from the couch?
What I am saying is that is probably where the technical problem came in if there is one.
You know, that's a good point. I hadn't considered that issue - this gives me hope that voice chat on the Switch is possible in portable mode but in home console mode you'll use your smartphone. I'd be OK with this.
They specifically said they don't want you to have to carry around a "bulky gamer headset" which is why they came up with the smartphone thing for on the go.
Huh, so it's not just speech through the phone app but matchmaking and lobbies too?
We have a few online games coming out before the paid service begins, so no, matchmaking will probably be handled by the games as they have been. The online service site makes a point of separating 'online play' from the app stuff, so I think we're in the clear on basic matchmaking. Making your own lobbies and voice chat, well that seems app-based. Won't defend or comment on that.
Reggie quote:
The smart phone app that we’re creating, that will be part of our online service, we believe is going to be a very compelling part of the overall proposition because that’s how you’ll voice chat, that’s how you’ll do your matchmaking, and create your lobby. We also think it’s a very elegant solution because if you’ve taken your switch on the go, you’ve put yourself in a hotspot, you’re looking at get a quick match of Mario Kart in, to whip out some sort of bulky, gamer headset is a bit of a challenge.
So we think we’ve got an elegant solution. That’s a very specific answer to your question.
So instead of carrying around a headset, you'll carry around your phone which I assume will have headphones plugged into it? And this is better than just plugging the headphones you'd be using with your phone into the Switch itself? Or just letting the Switch pair with normal Bluetooth headphones (or those cyborg stick in your ear with a mic ones)?
In order to get your multiplayer on, you'll get your Switch ready, then get out your phone for setting up a lobby/chat? I'm not sure they're using 'elegant' correctly. The whole thing seems baffling. I wonder if they're squeezed for space with the on-board storage, so they offloaded as much as possible to the phone.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
That's not very specific...I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only mess on my 3DS is the hundred icons on the home screen that I used to try to organize into folders but gave up, because I've got too much digital stuff. Bunch of games from Humble Bundles like Olli Olli, demos, free stuff like the Badge Arcade and Pokemon Picross. Just a week ago I was at my friend's house watching him play Paper Mario, and I thought "man I want to play another Mario RPG," and I had M&L Paper Jam on my 3DS 10 minutes later. Not sure what it's missing in particular.
PS4 controllers are bluetooth based and have zero issue transmitting the data required for both gamepad input and voice.
And While I will say that it's entirely possible that joycons take more bandwidth by themselves than a PS4 controller, I think people who think that's an issue are vastly overestimating the amount of bandwidth required to transmit gamepad inputs.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, and it is fact. Including the ability to use your phone as a way to do friends management, matchmaking, voicechat, hell even an online store is a fantastic idea. Microsoft does this. Sony does this. They both work really well, It is a great experience. In both cases those are designed in addition to that base functionality that exists on the console.
Not having basic functionality of being able to turn on the Switch, see which of your friends are online, and join a game/voice chat with them on the Switch is inexcusable, and frankly, a complete miss. Requiring people to pick up a separate device to do so is absurd. And Nintendo trying to spin it that they did this so it would be eaiser for people who want to play online "on the go" is even more absurd because that means that you have another device you have to manage while you're "on the go"
Having the functionality in the app is great, and I'm sure I will enjoy that. Using that as an excuse not to have that functionality in the actual game console is a number of steps past absurd.
We've also seen that the Joycons are quite a bit smaller than the PS4 controller and that we do not know the HD rumble requirements, how it effects the bandwith needs, or what kind of interferance it creates. I could be wrong but sometimes this stuff surprises us.
Being smaller probably has absolutely nothing to do with it. PS4/Xbox controllers are a lot of empty space to accommodate the ergonomics. the PCB's, while likely smaller on the joycons compared to the other controllers, should not affect bluetooth performance, assuming they design the antenna well. A poorly designed antenna will cause issues no matter how good the bluetooth controller is.
And again, You're vastly over-estimating the amount of bandwidth that controller inputs take. HD rumble or no HD rumble. the amount of data required to tell the rumble motors what to do is the same. The motors might do different things, but the actual commands telling the motors what to do would essentially be identical.
That's not very specific...I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only mess on my 3DS is the hundred icons on the home screen that I used to try to organize into folders but gave up, because I've got too much digital stuff. Bunch of games from Humble Bundles like Olli Olli, demos, free stuff like the Badge Arcade and Pokemon Picross. Just a week ago I was at my friend's house watching him play Paper Mario, and I thought "man I want to play another Mario RPG," and I had M&L Paper Jam on my 3DS 10 minutes later. Not sure what it's missing in particular.
There's no system level online stuff, the friends list is awful, it still uses friend codes, I'm still sad there's no achievements for Nintendo games but that's a personal preference, anytime I've tried to play Smash online it has been a laggy mess, etc. The eShop certainly works to let you purchase stuff but all the other things that would make it better are just missing. Pokemon X and Y had a way better online system than anything I've seen Nintendo do with a friends list that populated on the bottom screen and let you contact or send little buffs and such to your friends.
The whole thing is just so janky compared to every other offering. Keeping that weird jank isn't unexpected from Nintendo, but it is certainly disappointing. Offloading voice chat to an entirely separate device is absolutely part of that weird jank.
They're basing that claim on the fact that the product code follows the same pattern as all the other Smash releases. The codes for the new Fire Emblem Amiibos followed a different pattern.
So, could this mean we'll get Smash Switch this year after all? Or just the Corrin Amiibo to go along with all the Fire Emblem stuff?
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Yeah, that's a good point. They could just be cutting corners.
I'm gonna lol when you have to buy the chat app because Nintendo.
cc @cloudeagle
I was wondering when we'd finally get a food analogy. :P
This is a glass half full / half empty scenario.
Another way of looking at is this: If I'm on a service where I pay a flat yearly rate and get a bunch of free games, and I want only 2 out of 10 of them, then I still have only paid the flat rate. This is a service with free gifts. If I'm on a second service that charges a flat yearly rate, and it offers me 10 games with an 80% discount, and I want two of them, then I still have paid more than my yearly rate. This is a service with coupons.
What the yearly rate actually *is* will be a huge factor of course. If the second service flat yearly rate is significantly lower, then hey alright. If it's the same as the first service or only marginally less, then eff that noise.
Woo! Thank you!! Finally got an order in. Now to cross various appendages to pray it shows up at the same time my Switch does...
It's not much of a value if I get a lot of things I don't play.
Does that mean that Nintendo should be this backwards about it? No. I just don't feel like the free games thing is as much of a value for most people as it's touted to be.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
If it's a technical problem it is still on Nintendo for not taking steps to solve that problem. Other tablet devices and devices with pretty clearly less power than the Switch can easily do voice chat. Obviously technical specs would be nice but they don't really matter, it's a weird move no matter what.
edit: also the PSN free games have been awesome. I don't have an xbox but I've loved the free PSN stuff pretty often.
Hehe you're welcome
But not ones that you plug in a dock that is set next to your TV.
They're not the same because you have to factor in every possible configuration of the system.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Hah! When you unfold the tin foil to see the pizza inside, the slices clip through the foil and the hot wings start to spin and flop around despite not being touched... now I want hot wings.
Most tablet devices have a way to display on a TV. They can still do voice chat while that's happening.
Voice chat isn't some huge technical hurdle, it's a very simple thing that has been around for ages. It's gonna take quite a big technical hurdle for me to excuse this for Nintendo because it just seems crazy. I mean hell, my DS did voice chat in a Pokemon game!
Hmm, I don't find that a really compelling counterpoint. The price you end up paying is all that matters.
Using the logic of "flat rate with free gifts" being better than "service with coupons," you could say that $100 a year with a free game a month would be better than $10 a year with a $1 game every month, all else being equal.
I think if the comparison ends up with a similar value to other services, it doesn't matter if its flat with gifts or service with coupons. What you spend is what matters, which you did say is a big factor.
Right. What I am saying is that we do not know about the Bluetooth and how much bandwidth the Joycons take. We do not know if there wasn't enough Bandwith for a chat headset, not if the HD rumble interfered with the port in the system, or whatever else might be a real reason.
You act like all tech is exactly the same and that there might just not be real reasons things won't work.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Nintendo left a fun message to hackers in the NES Classic.
They obviously know about voice chat. it's been in every system since the DS. So it's not like they forgot about it now.
There was some reason, I'm not even saying it was a good reason, for it. But I also am not going to attribute it to laziness or whatever because their previous systems show that to not be true.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Now I am picturing 2 people playing a game on one Switch, each with their own headsets, in the same room with someone else playing on their own Switch with a headset, connecting online to play against another group of people somewhere who are playing 4 player on one Switch on their TV, two with joycons and two with pro controllers, all of them with their own headsets.
Joycon bandwidth has nothing to do with a microphone being built into the system. Or the headphone jack having an extra pole for a headset. These things are not particularly expensive or difficult to implement for the vast majority of devices. It is very possible they left it out to save on cost, just like they left the internal memory at 32gb, but none of those choices are particularly good ones for consumers. There are tons of solutions to these problems that don't require you to have a smartphone handy. I am not acting like all tech is the same, I am saying that the choices Nintendo has made don't make sense based on current technology. The Switch doesn't have some super ultra special design that keeps it from having a way to stick a microphone into it. It is a deliberate choice Nintendo made.
I didn't say that. Where do you put the port when you've got the system docked and you are playing from the couch?
What I am saying is that is probably where the technical problem came in if there is one.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
I also work in IT. Given their previous systems I'm not sure how you can discount laziness! Nintendo has always been a huge slacker when it comes to online stuff and voice chat is no different. There are logical conclusions we can draw from what we do know and lack of voice chat being built in is just weird. It is very difficult to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt for stuff when they have a history of being terrible in this area, seemingly on purpose.
I'm not going to argue it anymore. It could be either and we simply don't know.
I just don't think assigning motives to them is fair when we don't actually know.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
That it comes with hair dye so you can match your hair color to your headphones?
I kid, I kid. I hope so too, but given what they have been saying I think it's safer to assume that it does not.
Microsoft's Gold also gives you discounts in addition to the free games, so those sorts of bonuses are kind of the established baseline for a paid online console experience that Nintendo will be judged on.
I'm not assigning a motive, just saying Nintendo is terrible in this area and passing it off as "oh that's just a technical hurdle" when there's no indication that it's anything of the sort, especially given all the other things that have problem with this kind of stuff, seems silly to me.
You know, that's a good point. I hadn't considered that issue - this gives me hope that voice chat on the Switch is possible in portable mode but in home console mode you'll use your smartphone. I'd be OK with this.
And While I will say that it's entirely possible that joycons take more bandwidth by themselves than a PS4 controller, I think people who think that's an issue are vastly overestimating the amount of bandwidth required to transmit gamepad inputs.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, and it is fact. Including the ability to use your phone as a way to do friends management, matchmaking, voicechat, hell even an online store is a fantastic idea. Microsoft does this. Sony does this. They both work really well, It is a great experience. In both cases those are designed in addition to that base functionality that exists on the console.
Not having basic functionality of being able to turn on the Switch, see which of your friends are online, and join a game/voice chat with them on the Switch is inexcusable, and frankly, a complete miss. Requiring people to pick up a separate device to do so is absurd. And Nintendo trying to spin it that they did this so it would be eaiser for people who want to play online "on the go" is even more absurd because that means that you have another device you have to manage while you're "on the go"
Having the functionality in the app is great, and I'm sure I will enjoy that. Using that as an excuse not to have that functionality in the actual game console is a number of steps past absurd.
As someone else working in IT who has dabbled with game creation, I would never call anyone involved with that process "lazy." It may be lacking in some features, but not due to laziness. Their devs are not over there sleeping at their desks for any reason other than being expected to work long hours to figure this stuff out. Call it weird or incompetent if you like, but not lazy. This applies to the other console manufacturers and development teams as well.
Plus we already went over this idea that "Nintendo is bad at online" which has been wrong for ages now. You thought the Wii U still used friend codes. Most of what they've done has met or exceeded standards, with the notable exception being the account/ownership system. The eShop works. Online play is smooth. Downloads and updates are smooth. DLC is handled properly. They've proven that they know what they're doing in this area, and up to now, it was all free.
They specifically said they don't want you to have to carry around a "bulky gamer headset" which is why they came up with the smartphone thing for on the go.
Switch - SW-3699-5063-5018
Do they not offer discounts without Gold? Nintendo always has some kind of sale going on, the current one gives you an additional 10% off the 20-30% off sale price just for having a My Nintendo account.
I would highly disagree that their online systems meet or exceed standards. The 3DS has been a mess with that stuff, and though I don't own a Wii U, they're still missing a lot of the stuff that other systems have from what I can see. The account/ownership system alone is a huge black mark. Laziness to me is them saying "Well we could spend an extra buck and put this hardware in here, or we could just make a smartphone app. Everyone has a smartphone right?"
I mean obviously we still need more detail but this kind of stuff just seems like a trainwreck.
Nintendo has given themselves the reputation of being bad online. It is up to them to fix it for people who are comparing them to their competitors. Can I make a system level party with friends in their online services? Are there achievement type systems? The few 3DS things I tried to play online were awful messes. Maybe the Wii U is amazing or something but that certainly isn't the prevailing opinion that I've seen.
We've also seen that the Joycons are quite a bit smaller than the PS4 controller and that we do not know the HD rumble requirements, how it effects the bandwith needs, or what kind of interferance it creates. I could be wrong but sometimes this stuff surprises us.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
So instead of carrying around a headset, you'll carry around your phone which I assume will have headphones plugged into it? And this is better than just plugging the headphones you'd be using with your phone into the Switch itself? Or just letting the Switch pair with normal Bluetooth headphones (or those cyborg stick in your ear with a mic ones)?
In order to get your multiplayer on, you'll get your Switch ready, then get out your phone for setting up a lobby/chat? I'm not sure they're using 'elegant' correctly. The whole thing seems baffling. I wonder if they're squeezed for space with the on-board storage, so they offloaded as much as possible to the phone.
That's not very specific...I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only mess on my 3DS is the hundred icons on the home screen that I used to try to organize into folders but gave up, because I've got too much digital stuff. Bunch of games from Humble Bundles like Olli Olli, demos, free stuff like the Badge Arcade and Pokemon Picross. Just a week ago I was at my friend's house watching him play Paper Mario, and I thought "man I want to play another Mario RPG," and I had M&L Paper Jam on my 3DS 10 minutes later. Not sure what it's missing in particular.
Being smaller probably has absolutely nothing to do with it. PS4/Xbox controllers are a lot of empty space to accommodate the ergonomics. the PCB's, while likely smaller on the joycons compared to the other controllers, should not affect bluetooth performance, assuming they design the antenna well. A poorly designed antenna will cause issues no matter how good the bluetooth controller is.
And again, You're vastly over-estimating the amount of bandwidth that controller inputs take. HD rumble or no HD rumble. the amount of data required to tell the rumble motors what to do is the same. The motors might do different things, but the actual commands telling the motors what to do would essentially be identical.
There's no system level online stuff, the friends list is awful, it still uses friend codes, I'm still sad there's no achievements for Nintendo games but that's a personal preference, anytime I've tried to play Smash online it has been a laggy mess, etc. The eShop certainly works to let you purchase stuff but all the other things that would make it better are just missing. Pokemon X and Y had a way better online system than anything I've seen Nintendo do with a friends list that populated on the bottom screen and let you contact or send little buffs and such to your friends.
The whole thing is just so janky compared to every other offering. Keeping that weird jank isn't unexpected from Nintendo, but it is certainly disappointing. Offloading voice chat to an entirely separate device is absolutely part of that weird jank.
They're basing that claim on the fact that the product code follows the same pattern as all the other Smash releases. The codes for the new Fire Emblem Amiibos followed a different pattern.
So, could this mean we'll get Smash Switch this year after all? Or just the Corrin Amiibo to go along with all the Fire Emblem stuff?