So, I know I've mentioned that I'm looking into picking up a Sig P320C of some kind as a carry gun...but it seems my plans are going to need to change a bit and I'm now in the market for a revolver. A little background info:
I've been working in Alaska for the past 2 some-odd decades during the summer. I tend to work in remote areas of the Arctic and get dropped off by helicopters to work remotely (usually in a crew of 2 or, at most, 3 people). So far this summer, one of the environmental services groups we work alongside with suffered a loss due to a bear mauling (the other person in the 2-person crew who was also attacked made it out, but required hospitalization). In the same week, there were at least two or three more bear maulings. Because of all that, people are kind of freaked out.
Now, with all that in mind, what would be the smallest caliber recommended as a last-ditch "Oh shit!" sidearm for if the primary deterrent (shotgun loaded with 2 animal deterrent rounds (glorified firecrackers) and the rest of the tube loaded with slugs)? And since this is supposed to be a last-ditch option, barrel/overall length should be on the shorter end of things (no 10"+ Super Redhawks here...even the 9" Redhawk is pushing it in terms of what I'd be comfortable with). Keeping in mind that the most common bear I'm likely to encounter are grizzlies, but there is a chance of polar. I was kind of hoping to keep it at .357mag...but after looking at the bullet weight and muzzle energy, I'm thinking that wouldn't really cut it. It should also be mentioned that I have never fired a revolver and the largest handgun caliber I've fired is a .45acp.
EDIT - since I have almost zero experience with revolvers, I'm going into this mostly blind. As such, one of the revolvers I'm eyeballing is a Ruger GP100 chambered in .44 special. Would that fit the purpose I'm looking to use it for?
Ruger makes a Super Redhawk Alaskan, 2.5 inch barrel in .44, .454 and .480 that's marketed as a last resort bear defense gun.
:edit: quoted since you ended up on the last page.
They also do a 5" version of it in .454 Casull, the Super Redhawk Alaskan Toklat.
So, I know I've mentioned that I'm looking into picking up a Sig P320C of some kind as a carry gun...but it seems my plans are going to need to change a bit and I'm now in the market for a revolver. A little background info:
I've been working in Alaska for the past 2 some-odd decades during the summer. I tend to work in remote areas of the Arctic and get dropped off by helicopters to work remotely (usually in a crew of 2 or, at most, 3 people). So far this summer, one of the environmental services groups we work alongside with suffered a loss due to a bear mauling (the other person in the 2-person crew who was also attacked made it out, but required hospitalization). In the same week, there were at least two or three more bear maulings. Because of all that, people are kind of freaked out.
Now, with all that in mind, what would be the smallest caliber recommended as a last-ditch "Oh shit!" sidearm for if the primary deterrent (shotgun loaded with 2 animal deterrent rounds (glorified firecrackers) and the rest of the tube loaded with slugs)? And since this is supposed to be a last-ditch option, barrel/overall length should be on the shorter end of things (no 10"+ Super Redhawks here...even the 9" Redhawk is pushing it in terms of what I'd be comfortable with). Keeping in mind that the most common bear I'm likely to encounter are grizzlies, but there is a chance of polar. I was kind of hoping to keep it at .357mag...but after looking at the bullet weight and muzzle energy, I'm thinking that wouldn't really cut it. It should also be mentioned that I have never fired a revolver and the largest handgun caliber I've fired is a .45acp.
EDIT - since I have almost zero experience with revolvers, I'm going into this mostly blind. As such, one of the revolvers I'm eyeballing is a Ruger GP100 chambered in .44 special. Would that fit the purpose I'm looking to use it for?
Ruger makes a Super Redhawk Alaskan, 2.5 inch barrel in .44, .454 and .480 that's marketed as a last resort bear defense gun.
:edit: quoted since you ended up on the last page.
They also do a 5" version of it in .454 Casull, the Super Redhawk Alaskan Toklat.
Hmm...that might actually work (poking around the different Super Redhawks, the 4.875" barrel .44 Super Redhawk is only $50 more than the P320C I was looking at...granted, no SigLite night sights). I kinda like the look of that SR Alaskan, though...it's almost the archetypal revolver look. Just one concern I have: if Hickok likes it, that almost guarantees that the grip is going to be too big for my wee dainty hands. But, it does give me something to check out when I run to the range this weekend and try out their rentals.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
edited June 2017
Glock in 10mm shooting hard cast Buffalo Bore ammo. IIRC one of the Scandinavian park ranger services just adopted it for that purpose.
But really, a 45-70 or slugs :bigfrown:
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Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
I would second the 5" revolver in 454 Casull, either the Ruger Super Redhawk or the Smith & Wesson 460V. In either case, you can practice mainly with cheaper, low recoil 45 Colt rounds meant for cowboy action shooting, saving 95% of your expensive 454 Casull rounds for the field. And definitely the 5" barrel will be better than the 2" barrel - you'll have to open carry it either way in a holster - those revolvers are big - so you won't notice the 3" barrel difference.
Truthfully though, if you are personally carrying a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs as your primary deterrent, your backup deterrent should be a partner carrying a second shotgun.
That said, my preferred primary armament would be a lever action Marlin 1895 guide gun loaded in 45/70 Govt. Aka, a rifle that fires a bullet so powerful that the shotgun is essentially the backup.
Glock in 10mm shooting hard cast Buffalo Bore ammo. IIRC one of the Scandinavian park ranger services just adopted it for that purpose.
I'm hesitant to rely on a semi-auto as my "oh shit!" backup while working in rivers, streams, and lakes that have either mud, silt, sand, or a mix of all of the above as their surrounding terrain (especially when sustained winds can be in the 30kts range in said environments, turning the area into a bit of a sand blaster).
I would second the 5" revolver in 454 Casull, either the Ruger Super Redhawk or the Smith & Wesson 460V. In either case, you can practice mainly with cheaper, low recoil 45 Colt rounds meant for cowboy action shooting, saving 95% of your expensive 454 Casull rounds for the field. And definitely the 5" barrel will be better than the 2" barrel - you'll have to open carry it either way in a holster - those revolvers are big - so you won't notice the 3" barrel difference.
Truthfully though, if you are personally carrying a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs as your primary deterrent, your backup deterrent should be a partner carrying a second shotgun.
That said, my preferred primary armament would be a lever action Marlin 1895 guide gun loaded in 45/70 Govt. Aka, a rifle that fires a bullet so powerful that the shotgun is essentially the backup.
A few things that should also be mentioned:
--We'd be limited in the number of shotguns we can use: they'd be checked out from our host company...and there is going to be competition for their stock of shotguns since there will be multiple environmental field surveys out and about.
--Actually, carrying won't be happening since half of our crew is going to be wearing chest waders and are going to be between hip and arm-pit deep in the above-mentioned streams, rivers, and lakes. For the most part, any backup handgun is going to either be tucked inside the waders (less ideal) or in a backpack (also not ideal for an "oh shit!" backup).
--And I really doubt the host company would like us bringing out a rifle designed solely for the destruction of said bears. The idea is deterrence first and foremost; destruction only for when life and limb are in imminent danger.
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Y'know what...after reading all of the restrictions back to myself, I think I'll just throw my hands in the air, say "fuck this" and go ahead with my plans of picking up a .40 P320C. I've made it 20+ years in the field without having to worry about bears (and only 10 of those years were where I got to carry a shotgun while being the designated bear guard).
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TurksonNear the mountains of ColoradoRegistered Userregular
Dude wow. Bears ain't nothing to mess with. I'm hoping the same advice I've gotten in the military still applies to them. One hole is good, many holes is better.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
Underwood Ammo has a 200gr Hard Cast Flat Nose in .40
Not exactly optimal for bear stopping, but you could still get your Sig and carry 13rds per mag of that ammo, which should make any bear think twice.
That might actually be an option. Even better is that I wouldn't even need to get the Sig to be able to use the ammo, as I was only going to pick up the Sig to use as a carry gun...I already have an HK VP40 for a home defense sidearm. The only problem I could foresee is the chance of jamming with a semi-auto in the environment I'd be working in. Basically, I have a daypack I carry with me all the time which I rarely open (mainly to either shed or add layers), and it still fills with sand.
But, with all that said, I still might take a gander at those hard cast .40 rounds. Might come in handy for when I do get the Sig and go hiking.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Whatever you wind up picking, Matt is right - you want the hardest, high sectional density ammo around in flat nose or wadcutter.
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
Whatever you wind up picking, Matt is right - you want the hardest, high sectional density ammo around in flat nose or wadcutter.
Looks like Buffalo Bore also has a hardcast line of ammo. I might pick up a few boxes in .40 (or .45 if I can find my personal unicorn: P320C in .45 with a manual safety...which seems to be the Massachusetts-compliant variant - but I can't, for the life of me, find one anywhere)
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While that would certainly be a solid choice, holy crap! $1700 and the reserve hasn't been met. For that price, I think I'd rather buy four Rem 870 marine magnums and have plenty of spares on hand.
Erlkönig on
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I know revolvers aren't the greatest thing for self defense. Low capacity, slow to reload, long heavy trigger pulls... and yet, I just love them so much!
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
The local gun shop I usually buy from had a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine that I was tempted to buy. But then I would have had to get an M1 carbine clone to go with it.
So, I went out to my local gun store to get my hands on a few of the options that are mulling around in my head. A few observations:
--I hate the feel of the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan (chambered in .454 Casull)...it just felt way too bulky and didn't feel right in my hand
--I really liked the feel of the Ruger GP100 (5-rounds chambered in .44 special). The grip felt nice, wasn't overly bulky
--I loved the feel (weight, action, trigger) of the Remington 1911 R1 enhanced commander (the one with the shorter 4.25" barrel). The only thing I didn't like was the grip...but that's why there are custom grips available.
--Wasn't a huge fan of the Ruger 10mm 1911. The grip was a little too big for my hands and the sights don't fit my aesthetics, plus it just felt awkward (I think it had a 5" barrel).
--Ruger lightweight 1911 was almost perfect. Working the slide wasn't quite as smooth as the Remington R1...but the grip was fantastic.
I dunno...on the one hand, I'd kind of prefer a lightweight striker-fired compact for a carry gun (mostly to keep in my car when I'm out and about...yes, I know I'll need a CPL for that). But on the other, if it's going to be in my car anyways until I need it, maybe the stainless steel 1911 R1 is the way to go (since it felt real nice). I might need to see if one of the ranges I go to has a .45 1911 available for rental to see how they shoot.
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I know revolvers aren't the greatest thing for self defense. Low capacity, slow to reload, long heavy trigger pulls... and yet, I just love them so much!
Someone once described the timeline of self defense guns as starting with trying a compact or even full size pistol before moving to a sub-compact when you get tired to trying to fit the last pistol and then just going to a pocket revolver because even the subcompact was a hassle and one gets tired of buying pants that look awful on you just to fit an IWB holster. So some would say you're just reaching the logical conclusion early.
I feel that bear mace would be a better option than a pistol, would it? Unless you with with. 500 S&W or. 45-70 govt.
Im no expert by far but bears seem like they would shrug that stuff off.
The thing with bear mace is that it's not going to be all that effective if a bear is stumbled upon (or be outright detrimental if the bear is upwind of you and there's a stiff breeze blowing in your face). Macing an adrenaline fueled bear is kinda like tazing a meth'd up human: it might work...but chances are, the target is too ramped up to even notice. Now, in normal situations, that's when I'd like to have a handgun of some kind (absolute minimum being a hot-loaded hardcast .45, but prefer a 10mm or magnum caliber) strapped to my hip so I can have an option for if/when the mace fails and if my coworker is fumbling with the shotgun (basically, the absolute worst case scenario).
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I feel that bear mace would be a better option than a pistol, would it? Unless you with with. 500 S&W or. 45-70 govt.
Im no expert by far but bears seem like they would shrug that stuff off.
The thing with bear mace is that it's not going to be all that effective if a bear is stumbled upon (or be outright detrimental if the bear is upwind of you and there's a stiff breeze blowing in your face). Macing an adrenaline fueled bear is kinda like tazing a meth'd up human: it might work...but chances are, the target is too ramped up to even notice. Now, in normal situations, that's when I'd like to have a handgun of some kind (absolute minimum being a hot-loaded hardcast .45, but prefer a 10mm or magnum caliber) strapped to my hip so I can have an option for if/when the mace fails and if my coworker is fumbling with the shotgun (basically, the absolute worst case scenario).
Not to be too mean. I hope you find a gun that would work for that situation and feels right for you. But honestly if it ever gets to that situation, I kind of think your fucked. You're talking large, large fucking bear, in close range, with no effective backup.
I mean a quick google search says that bears can cover 50 yards (IIRC decent pistol range) in 3 seconds. I know you are a good shooter, but still, those seem like bad numbers. And aren't bears fueled by adrenaline kind of infamous for not dying easily? Like "We turned an anti-aircraft cannon on it and it did nothing" difficulty?
I'm just going to go on record for hoping that Erlkonig does not have any close encounters of the bear kind.
Edit: And as far as guns go sounds like Remington 1911 R1 enhanced commander (the one with the shorter 4.25" barrel) is the one for you. Unless you know of a way of fixing the slide on that Ruger lightweight 1911. I don't know guns that well, I just like to read this thread. But you described one gun as almost perfect, but need a slight fix. But it was something you know you can fix.
The lightweight seemed like it was also almost perfect. But can you fix the slide action? Or is that going to be a permanent problem? Because if it is, it seems to me that you should go with the non-permanent problem gun.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Oh man I might have the opportunity to pick up a lightly used Marlin 30-30 lever action. I got to shoot it this weekend and man, what a fun gun. I've wanted a lever action forever.
I feel that bear mace would be a better option than a pistol, would it? Unless you with with. 500 S&W or. 45-70 govt.
Im no expert by far but bears seem like they would shrug that stuff off.
The thing with bear mace is that it's not going to be all that effective if a bear is stumbled upon (or be outright detrimental if the bear is upwind of you and there's a stiff breeze blowing in your face). Macing an adrenaline fueled bear is kinda like tazing a meth'd up human: it might work...but chances are, the target is too ramped up to even notice. Now, in normal situations, that's when I'd like to have a handgun of some kind (absolute minimum being a hot-loaded hardcast .45, but prefer a 10mm or magnum caliber) strapped to my hip so I can have an option for if/when the mace fails and if my coworker is fumbling with the shotgun (basically, the absolute worst case scenario).
Glock 20 with a LoneWolf Alpha Barrel dropped in so it's all good for specialty ammunition that would be suitable for bear country.
I mean, it's that or a Sig 1911 Tac-Ops in 10mm if you want to stick to that platform.
diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
I feel that bear mace would be a better option than a pistol, would it? Unless you with with. 500 S&W or. 45-70 govt.
Im no expert by far but bears seem like they would shrug that stuff off.
The thing with bear mace is that it's not going to be all that effective if a bear is stumbled upon (or be outright detrimental if the bear is upwind of you and there's a stiff breeze blowing in your face). Macing an adrenaline fueled bear is kinda like tazing a meth'd up human: it might work...but chances are, the target is too ramped up to even notice. Now, in normal situations, that's when I'd like to have a handgun of some kind (absolute minimum being a hot-loaded hardcast .45, but prefer a 10mm or magnum caliber) strapped to my hip so I can have an option for if/when the mace fails and if my coworker is fumbling with the shotgun (basically, the absolute worst case scenario).
Not to be too mean. I hope you find a gun that would work for that situation and feels right for you. But honestly if it ever gets to that situation, I kind of think your fucked. You're talking large, large fucking bear, in close range, with no effective backup.
I mean a quick google search says that bears can cover 50 yards (IIRC decent pistol range) in 3 seconds. I know you are a good shooter, but still, those seem like bad numbers. And aren't bears fueled by adrenaline kind of infamous for not dying easily? Like "We turned an anti-aircraft cannon on it and it did nothing" difficulty?
I'm just going to go on record for hoping that Erlkonig does not have any close encounters of the bear kind.
Edit: And as far as guns go sounds like Remington 1911 R1 enhanced commander (the one with the shorter 4.25" barrel) is the one for you. Unless you know of a way of fixing the slide on that Ruger lightweight 1911. I don't know guns that well, I just like to read this thread. But you described one gun as almost perfect, but need a slight fix. But it was something you know you can fix.
The lightweight seemed like it was also almost perfect. But can you fix the slide action? Or is that going to be a permanent problem? Because if it is, it seems to me that you should go with the non-permanent problem gun.
Pretty much. You need to hit and cripple/destroy the CNS long enough ahead of time to make sure you don't end up with a 500+ pound fur-boulder dropped on top of you and you end up smothered. Basically, the best case scenario with a pistol* is going to be bad news all around. So, all told, I'm thinking I'm going to keep rolling the dice and sticking with bear spray and letting my coworker futz with the shotgun (haven't really worried about bears in two decades in spite of them being within sight of my work area...I shouldn't be overly worried now). And thanks, I'm personally hoping to avoid any involvement with the ursine digestive tract since I'm pretty sure it would be unpleasant for all parties involved.
* - barring using a large-bore magnum revolver round.
And I managed to try out a Kimber 1911 (I think it was a 5" barrel model). So glad I tried it out, since it cemented my decision to instead go with the Sig P320C. Got to get my hands on a 320C chambered in 9mm at the shop there (couldn't shoot it), and it felt fantastic. Now, I just need to special order the 320C with a safety (striker-fired pistols without any kind of safety, be it manual or a trigger-safety freak me right the fuck out) to be my primary carry gun (definitely more for bipedal mammal defense and not furry quadruped defense) after I get back from the field.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I was always told, if you plan to just carry a pistol in bear country you're only gonna need the one bullet.
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I was always told, if you plan to just carry a pistol in bear country you're only gonna need the one bullet.
To shoot your coworker in the leg?
advice given to me by my dad.......who was my coworker for 20 years :P
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Studies, specifically in Alaska even, show that bear mace is a better option for self-defense than firearms.
firearm bearers suffered the same injury rates in close encounters with bears whether they used their firearms or not
...
bear spray [has] a better success rate under a variety of situations ... than firearms.
Your best defense is going to be to remain noisy so as not to startle a bear, followed by bear mace. This even sets aside the fact that using a firearm for self-defense here probably means killing a bear, which I hope we'd all consider to be an avoidable tragedy.
When I was up in Yukon I was obliged to carry a can of bear mace around, I test fired it at a tree and holy shitballs I would need to be in serious fear for my life to spray a bear in the face with that shit and I'd still feel bad about it, I almost think I'd rather you shoot me with bullets than that stuff
Kind of disappointed. I'd heard from many places that the July 4th usually has great deals, better than the Memorial Day ones. So I put off buying a couple things until the 4th ... and the deals weren't very good that I saw.
shrug Oh well. I don't have any desperate need for anything, so I can wait.
With the industry starting to contract there probably won't be any shockingly good deals for a while. When you can get things like AR-15's for $400 there's not much further they can go. Ammo probably won't drop too much more any time soon since everyone who invested in increasing production when demand was crazy still has bills to pay. The only real deal I saw over the holiday was Bushmaster dropping the ACR barrels $100.
Graf and sons ususally has lots of odd calibers in stock, dunno about the pricing (as in how it compares to others). Also look at Aim Surplus and Classic Firearms, classic especially as they often have mil surplus ammo.
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Ruger makes a Super Redhawk Alaskan, 2.5 inch barrel in .44, .454 and .480 that's marketed as a last resort bear defense gun.
:edit: quoted since you ended up on the last page.
They also do a 5" version of it in .454 Casull, the Super Redhawk Alaskan Toklat.
Hmm...that might actually work (poking around the different Super Redhawks, the 4.875" barrel .44 Super Redhawk is only $50 more than the P320C I was looking at...granted, no SigLite night sights). I kinda like the look of that SR Alaskan, though...it's almost the archetypal revolver look. Just one concern I have: if Hickok likes it, that almost guarantees that the grip is going to be too big for my wee dainty hands. But, it does give me something to check out when I run to the range this weekend and try out their rentals.
But really, a 45-70 or slugs :bigfrown:
Truthfully though, if you are personally carrying a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs as your primary deterrent, your backup deterrent should be a partner carrying a second shotgun.
That said, my preferred primary armament would be a lever action Marlin 1895 guide gun loaded in 45/70 Govt. Aka, a rifle that fires a bullet so powerful that the shotgun is essentially the backup.
I'm hesitant to rely on a semi-auto as my "oh shit!" backup while working in rivers, streams, and lakes that have either mud, silt, sand, or a mix of all of the above as their surrounding terrain (especially when sustained winds can be in the 30kts range in said environments, turning the area into a bit of a sand blaster).
--EDIT--
A few things that should also be mentioned:
--We'd be limited in the number of shotguns we can use: they'd be checked out from our host company...and there is going to be competition for their stock of shotguns since there will be multiple environmental field surveys out and about.
--Actually, carrying won't be happening since half of our crew is going to be wearing chest waders and are going to be between hip and arm-pit deep in the above-mentioned streams, rivers, and lakes. For the most part, any backup handgun is going to either be tucked inside the waders (less ideal) or in a backpack (also not ideal for an "oh shit!" backup).
--And I really doubt the host company would like us bringing out a rifle designed solely for the destruction of said bears. The idea is deterrence first and foremost; destruction only for when life and limb are in imminent danger.
Not exactly optimal for bear stopping, but you could still get your Sig and carry 13rds per mag of that ammo, which should make any bear think twice.
That might actually be an option. Even better is that I wouldn't even need to get the Sig to be able to use the ammo, as I was only going to pick up the Sig to use as a carry gun...I already have an HK VP40 for a home defense sidearm. The only problem I could foresee is the chance of jamming with a semi-auto in the environment I'd be working in. Basically, I have a daypack I carry with me all the time which I rarely open (mainly to either shed or add layers), and it still fills with sand.
But, with all that said, I still might take a gander at those hard cast .40 rounds. Might come in handy for when I do get the Sig and go hiking.
Looks like Buffalo Bore also has a hardcast line of ammo. I might pick up a few boxes in .40 (or .45 if I can find my personal unicorn: P320C in .45 with a manual safety...which seems to be the Massachusetts-compliant variant - but I can't, for the life of me, find one anywhere)
Like this?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/658147230
While that would certainly be a solid choice, holy crap! $1700 and the reserve hasn't been met. For that price, I think I'd rather buy four Rem 870 marine magnums and have plenty of spares on hand.
There's lots of guns out there that I find interesting. None of them are cheap.
Heh...sounds like me and my "If I Win The Lottery" gun. $5k is a hard pill to swallow at my pay-rate.
--I hate the feel of the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan (chambered in .454 Casull)...it just felt way too bulky and didn't feel right in my hand
--I really liked the feel of the Ruger GP100 (5-rounds chambered in .44 special). The grip felt nice, wasn't overly bulky
--I loved the feel (weight, action, trigger) of the Remington 1911 R1 enhanced commander (the one with the shorter 4.25" barrel). The only thing I didn't like was the grip...but that's why there are custom grips available.
--Wasn't a huge fan of the Ruger 10mm 1911. The grip was a little too big for my hands and the sights don't fit my aesthetics, plus it just felt awkward (I think it had a 5" barrel).
--Ruger lightweight 1911 was almost perfect. Working the slide wasn't quite as smooth as the Remington R1...but the grip was fantastic.
I dunno...on the one hand, I'd kind of prefer a lightweight striker-fired compact for a carry gun (mostly to keep in my car when I'm out and about...yes, I know I'll need a CPL for that). But on the other, if it's going to be in my car anyways until I need it, maybe the stainless steel 1911 R1 is the way to go (since it felt real nice). I might need to see if one of the ranges I go to has a .45 1911 available for rental to see how they shoot.
But I'll shoot anything and enjoy shooting things like 12 gauge for longer training times than most people probably do.
I wish these were imported because I'd shoot the hell out of this too.
8 ~ 6 gauge KS 23.
Someone once described the timeline of self defense guns as starting with trying a compact or even full size pistol before moving to a sub-compact when you get tired to trying to fit the last pistol and then just going to a pocket revolver because even the subcompact was a hassle and one gets tired of buying pants that look awful on you just to fit an IWB holster. So some would say you're just reaching the logical conclusion early.
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Im no expert by far but bears seem like they would shrug that stuff off.
The thing with bear mace is that it's not going to be all that effective if a bear is stumbled upon (or be outright detrimental if the bear is upwind of you and there's a stiff breeze blowing in your face). Macing an adrenaline fueled bear is kinda like tazing a meth'd up human: it might work...but chances are, the target is too ramped up to even notice. Now, in normal situations, that's when I'd like to have a handgun of some kind (absolute minimum being a hot-loaded hardcast .45, but prefer a 10mm or magnum caliber) strapped to my hip so I can have an option for if/when the mace fails and if my coworker is fumbling with the shotgun (basically, the absolute worst case scenario).
Not to be too mean. I hope you find a gun that would work for that situation and feels right for you. But honestly if it ever gets to that situation, I kind of think your fucked. You're talking large, large fucking bear, in close range, with no effective backup.
I mean a quick google search says that bears can cover 50 yards (IIRC decent pistol range) in 3 seconds. I know you are a good shooter, but still, those seem like bad numbers. And aren't bears fueled by adrenaline kind of infamous for not dying easily? Like "We turned an anti-aircraft cannon on it and it did nothing" difficulty?
I'm just going to go on record for hoping that Erlkonig does not have any close encounters of the bear kind.
Edit: And as far as guns go sounds like Remington 1911 R1 enhanced commander (the one with the shorter 4.25" barrel) is the one for you. Unless you know of a way of fixing the slide on that Ruger lightweight 1911. I don't know guns that well, I just like to read this thread. But you described one gun as almost perfect, but need a slight fix. But it was something you know you can fix.
The lightweight seemed like it was also almost perfect. But can you fix the slide action? Or is that going to be a permanent problem? Because if it is, it seems to me that you should go with the non-permanent problem gun.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Glock 20 with a LoneWolf Alpha Barrel dropped in so it's all good for specialty ammunition that would be suitable for bear country.
I mean, it's that or a Sig 1911 Tac-Ops in 10mm if you want to stick to that platform.
Pretty much. You need to hit and cripple/destroy the CNS long enough ahead of time to make sure you don't end up with a 500+ pound fur-boulder dropped on top of you and you end up smothered. Basically, the best case scenario with a pistol* is going to be bad news all around. So, all told, I'm thinking I'm going to keep rolling the dice and sticking with bear spray and letting my coworker futz with the shotgun (haven't really worried about bears in two decades in spite of them being within sight of my work area...I shouldn't be overly worried now). And thanks, I'm personally hoping to avoid any involvement with the ursine digestive tract since I'm pretty sure it would be unpleasant for all parties involved.
* - barring using a large-bore magnum revolver round.
And I managed to try out a Kimber 1911 (I think it was a 5" barrel model). So glad I tried it out, since it cemented my decision to instead go with the Sig P320C. Got to get my hands on a 320C chambered in 9mm at the shop there (couldn't shoot it), and it felt fantastic. Now, I just need to special order the 320C with a safety (striker-fired pistols without any kind of safety, be it manual or a trigger-safety freak me right the fuck out) to be my primary carry gun (definitely more for bipedal mammal defense and not furry quadruped defense) after I get back from the field.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
To shoot your coworker in the leg?
Another supporting link: http://www.themeateater.com/2016/the-cold-hard-facts-of-bear-deterrents-bear-spray-vs-firearms/
Your best defense is going to be to remain noisy so as not to startle a bear, followed by bear mace. This even sets aside the fact that using a firearm for self-defense here probably means killing a bear, which I hope we'd all consider to be an avoidable tragedy.
shrug Oh well. I don't have any desperate need for anything, so I can wait.
If you have to buy in person, I've never seen any in stores outside of Cabela's. That said I order 90% of my ammo online through SGAmmo and they've got lots in stock, if not the biggest variety. http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammo-sale/65x55-swedish-ammo?sort=round_low
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/168?
Graf and sons ususally has lots of odd calibers in stock, dunno about the pricing (as in how it compares to others). Also look at Aim Surplus and Classic Firearms, classic especially as they often have mil surplus ammo.