Better get a babysitter cause we've got two tickets to the [GUN] show...

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  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    zdaytaidpzk9.jpeg

    CCI Standard is the shit, this is just me throwing that into the conversation.

    Left side is 10/22 bull barrel with a 2-7 on top. Right side is the 10/22 with Bushnell dot on top. Most at 50, shot two targets at 100.

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
    Docmrpaku
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I really wish there was an open gravel pit I could shoot at within 2 hours from my house. Sigh.

    Dead LegendBrodyBigitywebguy20
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    There's been a run by first time buyers. If what some retailers are alleging is true, also first time buyers who are completely unaware that they can't just order a firearm to their door like Amazon Prime or that their state has a rather lengthy waiting period.

    There was a local story here about how people were furious they couldn't just walk in and buy handguns.

    WTF were you people when it mattered. Oh well, they can apply for a LTC until (and if) the law changes. I was amused though.

    76561198017303226.png
    NSDFRandSteel Angel
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Bigity wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    There's been a run by first time buyers. If what some retailers are alleging is true, also first time buyers who are completely unaware that they can't just order a firearm to their door like Amazon Prime or that their state has a rather lengthy waiting period.

    There was a local story here about how people were furious they couldn't just walk in and buy handguns.

    WTF were you people when it mattered. Oh well, they can apply for a LTC until (and if) the law changes. I was amused though.

    It's one of those situations where people hear a policy position and they think it sounds "okay" in a vacuum because they are low information on the subject. And then they run face first into it and suddenly they find themselves in a pikachuface.png situation.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Bigity wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    There's been a run by first time buyers. If what some retailers are alleging is true, also first time buyers who are completely unaware that they can't just order a firearm to their door like Amazon Prime or that their state has a rather lengthy waiting period.

    There was a local story here about how people were furious they couldn't just walk in and buy handguns.

    WTF were you people when it mattered. Oh well, they can apply for a LTC until (and if) the law changes. I was amused though.

    It's one of those situations where people hear a policy position and they think it sounds "okay" in a vacuum because they are low information on the subject. And then they run face first into it and suddenly they find themselves in a pikachuface.png situation.

    I think it's also a case where a lot of people don't think about the local laws and regulations because the news will almost always only talk about national level stuff which itself only concerns itself with a few issues these days, almost always involving adding steps. It does not inform someone who has never done research into the topic about the existing regulations and requirements and if someone gets most of their knowledge of guns from pop culture and media they might well think there are no barriers given that they're never depicted in entertainment. It's hardly a phenomenon limited to guns. I recall some comments a while back that when Canada allowed for some specific stores to legally sell marijuana for non-medical use medical dispensaries that were not a part of that across the country dealt with people wandering in and thinking it was a free for all market.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Bigity wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    There's been a run by first time buyers. If what some retailers are alleging is true, also first time buyers who are completely unaware that they can't just order a firearm to their door like Amazon Prime or that their state has a rather lengthy waiting period.

    There was a local story here about how people were furious they couldn't just walk in and buy handguns.

    WTF were you people when it mattered. Oh well, they can apply for a LTC until (and if) the law changes. I was amused though.

    The police departments here have stopped doing "non-essential" fingerprinting, and since you need to be fingerprinted to apply for a carry permit, the application process for those have been halted as well.

    BigityStabbity Style
  • David WalgasDavid Walgas Registered User regular
    edited March 22
    Doc wrote: »
    I really wish there was an open gravel pit I could shoot at within 2 hours from my house. Sigh.

    There’s one about 2 hours from my house with a forest that allows for camping a 20 minute drive away. Now that I’m off school and work for a few months it’s really tempting to just go.

    David Walgas on
    Dead Legend
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Bigity wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    There's been a run by first time buyers. If what some retailers are alleging is true, also first time buyers who are completely unaware that they can't just order a firearm to their door like Amazon Prime or that their state has a rather lengthy waiting period.

    There was a local story here about how people were furious they couldn't just walk in and buy handguns.

    WTF were you people when it mattered. Oh well, they can apply for a LTC until (and if) the law changes. I was amused though.

    Nobody should ever be able to buy any firearm without a background check and a waiting period, though.

    BrodyElvenshaeErlkönigJusticeforPlutoStabbity StyleNightDragonDavid WalgasForarDouglasDangerSyngyne
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    Those are not international standards and other countries have done well (far far better than the US) with alternative systems. In some countries its perfectly fine to buy without those restrictions as other restrictions do the job instead.

  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited March 23
    Bigity wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    There's been a run by first time buyers. If what some retailers are alleging is true, also first time buyers who are completely unaware that they can't just order a firearm to their door like Amazon Prime or that their state has a rather lengthy waiting period.

    There was a local story here about how people were furious they couldn't just walk in and buy handguns.

    WTF were you people when it mattered. Oh well, they can apply for a LTC until (and if) the law changes. I was amused though.

    Nobody should ever be able to buy any firearm without a background check and a waiting period, though.


    That's one opinion, sure. Not wanting to start a debate about that though. It was still amusing at the anger from folks with your same opinion up to that point.

    Bigity on
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    NSDFRandSteel AngelDead LegendDouglasDangerJoolandershorttimin
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Hey everyone, I am a potential new gun owner due to generally what's going on right now. I have no experience with guns.

    I've filled out the appropriate paperwork for my local law enforcement and currently scheduled a 120 minute 'Introduction to Hand Guns' course at my local range.

    The intent of this gun is entirely home protection. I am not looking to conceal and carry and I am not looking for something Dirty Harry capable of blowing someone in half.

    Characteristics I am Looking For: First timer friendly, easy to use, reliable, easy maintenance.

    I may supplement this with a single shotgun for all of the same purposes above.

    Suggstions?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    What’s your location? Sounds like you have some restrictions on what you can own based on the permission slip from the PD

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    What’s your location? Sounds like you have some restrictions on what you can own based on the permission slip from the PD

    Rochester, MN. According to the local PD website, a permit is required to purchase a Hand Gun or Assault Rifle (limited to 21 and 18 years of age respectively). There appears to be no restrictions on shotguns or rifles.

    I plan to drop off the paperwork for the permit as of tomorrow and then schedule the educational course later this week.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    What’s your location? Sounds like you have some restrictions on what you can own based on the permission slip from the PD

    Rochester, MN. According to the local PD website, a permit is required to purchase a Hand Gun or Assault Rifle (limited to 21 and 18 years of age respectively). There appears to be no restrictions on shotguns or rifles.

    I plan to drop off the paperwork for the permit as of tomorrow and then schedule the educational course later this week.

    I’d recommend a long gun. Easier to learn and use over a handgun. What do they consider an “assault rifle”?

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
    MegaMan001NSDFRandmrpaku
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    Also keep in mind most PDs and similar license awarding agencies consider these requests non-essential and are not processing them right now.

    76561198017303226.png
    NSDFRand
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    The permit lists it as a "semiautomatic assault rifle"?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    edited March 24
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    The permit lists it as a "semiautomatic assault rifle"?

    So it sounds like just a semi auto rifle. Which is easily the majority of rifles on the market. Frankly, you're better off with a semi auto, box magazine fed rifle. It's much more user friendly, especially for someone with little to no experience with a firearm. If you can find one on a shelf where you are, I have to recommend an AR15 or some pistol caliber version of. It's probably the safest, most accurate, and most reliable thing you're going to find and is only beat out by a handgun in conceal-ability. You are more likely to have good muzzle awareness, it has a manual safety, three points of contact means better inherent accuracy and control, and you can get one chambered for a pistol cartridge and buy expanding ammunition. It also doesn't come with the relative shortfalls of handguns and pump shotguns.

    If you're settled on a handgun then you want to buy something you can find ammo for right now. Any model of Glock will be fine, I would suggest sticking with striker fired or double-action hammer fired auto loading pistols. Revolvers aren't bad, but under stress you now have more room for error in manipulation. You also want to avoid single action only if you can because, again, you're introducing additional potential points of failure.

    As far as shotguns: I love shotguns, they are fun to shoot, from my perspective they are also very versatile. In the hands of experienced shooters. The pump shotgun is extremely prevalent in movies and tv shows so people tend to think of shotguns first when they think of effective, dummy proof firearms that are simply point and click. That couldn't be further from the truth. Pump shotguns are prevalent because they are easy to make work with blanks. Pump shotguns also require training and patterning (figuring out he spread pattern of your chosen self defense loading, typically 00 buck shot, through your gun at the ranges you think are relevant) and still require accurate shooting even up close. The major downsides are: user error activating the pump (called short stroking, meaning you aren't fully opening up the action to eject the spent casing and load a new one), high recoil from self defense loads (affects the ability to get back on target, can be almost debilitating for lighter and smaller shooters), and the amount of manual manipulation needed for loading a tube vs inserting a box magazine.

    In general: gross motor movements are the way to go because under stress, not only in my experience but in the stated experience of people with a whole lot more experience than me who freely give away their valuable advice on YouTube and other sites (Paul Harrell for example), your fine motor movement ability is going to be extremely hindered. You're going to need as basic a manual of arms possible with as few movements as necessary to operate your firearm under stress.

    This goes for unarmed self defense as well. You want to stick with gross motor movements because even for trained, experienced people fine motor movements are going to fail more often than simple gross motor movements.

    NSDFRand on
    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
    Steel AngelGvzbgulshorttiminThegreatcow
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    The permit lists it as a "semiautomatic assault rifle"?

    I'm impressed with the text of the state law. That's literally an oxymoron given that "assault rifle" specifically is defined as a rifle with an automatic or burst fire mode.

    "Assault weapon" is a legal term, not a technical term so if a state has a restriction mentioning them it has to have a list of what it considers restricted somewhere in their criminal code. Mind you if your permitting goes through without snags it's a bit off a moot point in this case though you'll still be dealing with what's readily available.

    General rule, for rifles 5.56 mm is going to be one optimal choice in this instance. It's been used by NATO nations since the mid-20th century, doesn't have much recoil, can accept .223 ammunition (the reverse does not apply. They're the same exterior size but 5.56 has more powder and makes more pressure). The AR-15 is the most common rifle for this. Other options exist but because the AR-15 has been around since the 1960s and the schematics are public domain a lot of companies make them and parts for them. The other 5.56 mm rifles tend to be significantly more expensive for what you get.

    7.62 mm x 39 mm, aka 7.62 Russian, AK-47, Kalishnakov, Warsaw Pact . . . basically any Russian associated term, is the other ideal choice. As you may have figured out, this is the caliber used by Russian made platforms like the AK-47 and SKS and some derivatives thereof. More recoil than the 5.56 mm and heavier but the AK-47 platform is renowned for durability. The things are known to still function with mud in them. Theoretically an AK-47 can cost less than an AR-15 but the laws about importing them get complicated and supply from some countries that were phasing them out is likely diminished by now.

    7.62 mm x 51 mm NATO/.308 caliber is another common rifle caliber but probably not what you want. The latter is a common hunting caliber able to handle animal in the lower 48 states. This means it has more kick to it and is overkill for home defense. But if that's what's available it's an acceptable option.

    I doubt this will even come up when you look at your options, but 5.45 mm is worth being a little aware of. It's the caliber size used in the AK-74 rifle platform Russia intended to replace the AK-47. The rifles are likely more expensive than an AK-47 derived gun and ammo is not as common in the US.

    I also second @NSDFRand reservations on shotguns. Additionally, a lot of shotguns come in setups for shooting skeet/trap or bird hunting and have a bead sight that is kind of a pain to use (and sight is singular. No rear sight with that setup). Because shotguns were popular police guns (which likely has more to do with history than effectiveness) and home defense guns in the US, there are plenty of models with more suitable sights but they're still clumsier to use, hold less ammunition in the magazine, and heavier.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    @MegaMan001

    Something I'm a little surprised nobody has asked you yet, but...

    What sort of environment do you live in? Your answer is going to filter out many suggestions that people have suggested (for example, if you're in a dense suburban neighborhood, pretty much any long gun is going to be out of the question).

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    @MegaMan001

    Something I'm a little surprised nobody has asked you yet, but...

    What sort of environment do you live in? Your answer is going to filter out many suggestions that people have suggested (for example, if you're in a dense suburban neighborhood, pretty much any long gun is going to be out of the question).

    I appreciate everything you guys have said and am reading everything. I live in a country neighborhood. So each house has about two acres of land maybe 12 houses total on our culture de sac.

    Thank you for the points about shotguns. They were recommended to me by a friend who has many guns and trains a lot due to ease of use and decreased penetration through walls.

    I also have a two year old, who's the reason I'd like to get additional protection for the home and the biggest fear in having a gun in the home.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • David WalgasDavid Walgas Registered User regular
    Hollow points and frangible ammo might be something to look into for that reason. Frangible has poor penetration and will be less likely to stop an attacker, but that’s the trade off.

  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    @MegaMan001

    Something I'm a little surprised nobody has asked you yet, but...

    What sort of environment do you live in? Your answer is going to filter out many suggestions that people have suggested (for example, if you're in a dense suburban neighborhood, pretty much any long gun is going to be out of the question).

    I appreciate everything you guys have said and am reading everything. I live in a country neighborhood. So each house has about two acres of land maybe 12 houses total on our culture de sac.

    Thank you for the points about shotguns. They were recommended to me by a friend who has many guns and trains a lot due to ease of use and decreased penetration through walls.

    I also have a two year old, who's the reason I'd like to get additional protection for the home and the biggest fear in having a gun in the home.

    The decreased penetration thing only makes sense if you're using something like a lightly loaded bird shot. Any effective 12 gauge defensive load, basically the larger buck shot loads, will penetrate dry wall just as much as any center fire handgun or intermediate rifle cartridge. For example, with 00 buck you're firing between 9 and 12 roughly .30 spheres at roughly 1100 or 1200 feet per second.

    If you're worried about penetration, a pistol caliber carbine is still my recommendation. You can purchase expanding ammunition which mitigates over penetration as much as possible while still maintaining all of the advantages of a carbine or rifle. Other than that, the answer to over penetration is generally to know what is behind your target. The first thing you should be doing in a home defense situation is making sure you are aware of where your family members are in the house. That means talking with your spouse about what happens if she wakes you up in the middle of the night to check out a noise and it actually is something e.g. she and the children hunker down in the master bedroom. It's also generally a good idea for you to do the same, with a phone as well as your firearm, and not go looking for the intruder.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
    GvzbgulDead LegendDavid WalgasSteel AngelshorttiminThegreatcow
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Wait, Joe Biden was wrong when he said everyone should get a shotgun for home defence?

    Damnit! I'm gonna have to take down all those posters of him in my bedroom.

  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    Any firearm and caliber is going to be capable of penetrating multiple interior and exterior walls.

    I have read the box o’truth thoroughly and viewed many videos on the subject. Paul Harrell just put out a good one a few weeks back.

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
    Gvzbgul
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    Any firearm and caliber is going to be capable of penetrating multiple interior and exterior walls.

    I have read the box o’truth thoroughly and viewed many videos on the subject. Paul Harrell just put out a good one a few weeks back.

    While true, the point is that it's not a question of "Will this penetrate multiple interior/exterior walls? (Yes/No)," but rather that there are calibers/firearms that can penetrate less than others.

    Also:
    Hollow points and frangible ammo might be something to look into for that reason. Frangible has poor penetration and will be less likely to stop an attacker, but that’s the trade off.

    Definitely at least take a look at the frangible options out there. Sure, the penetration isn't as deep as a lead-based round, but the lethality of the bullet is going to depend more heavily on shot placement. As with most things, familiarize, train, and becoming proficient with your firearm/ammunition and knowing the limitations of your ammunition (and firearm) are all interconnected. Frangible bullets are still lethal...granted, it might take more than a single shot to do it (and I don't think too many people are going to be all that interested in stealing your stuff after being shot). And, if you're really worried about a continued threat coming at you, can mix the magazine with frangible and non-frangible ammunition (first 2-3 rounds frangible, followed by non-frangible rounds in the rest of the magazine).

    Oh! Another benefit of frangible ammunition: they're going to be lead-free (yes, I know there are lead-free non-frangible rounds as well...but those tend to be made of harder, copper or brass).

    With all that said, I'll fully admit that I personally have my 5.56 rifle loaded with non-frangible hollow points, my shotgun with deep penetrator slugs (mostly used for outdoor use), and my pistols with a variety of hollow-points (although, I'm probably going to be switching my primary home defense gun to a pistol that shoots lead-free 5.7 rounds).

    Erlkönig on
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  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    Any firearm and caliber is going to be capable of penetrating multiple interior and exterior walls.

    I have read the box o’truth thoroughly and viewed many videos on the subject. Paul Harrell just put out a good one a few weeks back.

    While true, the point is that it's not a question of "Will this penetrate multiple interior/exterior walls? (Yes/No)," but rather that there are calibers/firearms that can penetrate less than others.

    Also:
    Hollow points and frangible ammo might be something to look into for that reason. Frangible has poor penetration and will be less likely to stop an attacker, but that’s the trade off.

    Definitely at least take a look at the frangible options out there. Sure, the penetration isn't as deep as a lead-based round, but the lethality of the bullet is going to depend more heavily on shot placement. As with most things, familiarize, train, and becoming proficient with your firearm/ammunition and knowing the limitations of your ammunition (and firearm) are all interconnected. Frangible bullets are still lethal...granted, it might take more than a single shot to do it (and I don't think too many people are going to be all that interested in stealing your stuff after being shot). And, if you're really worried about a continued threat coming at you, can mix the magazine with frangible and non-frangible ammunition (first 2-3 rounds frangible, followed by non-frangible rounds in the rest of the magazine).

    Oh! Another benefit of frangible ammunition: they're going to be lead-free (yes, I know there are lead-free non-frangible rounds as well...but those tend to be made of harder, copper or brass).

    With all that said, I'll fully admit that I personally have my 5.56 rifle loaded with non-frangible hollow points, my shotgun with deep penetrator slugs (mostly used for outdoor use), and my pistols with a variety of hollow-points (although, I'm probably going to be switching my primary home defense gun to a pistol that shoots lead-free 5.7 rounds).

    I’ll grant you ammunition choices matter far more in limiting overpenetration, but any caliber used for defensive measures is capable of overpenetration.

    Yes, some choices will penetrate less than others. Or may be so deformed by the time they penetrate the threat of serious risk / injury is diminished to an “acceptable” degree, depending on your limits.

    For me, I’m comfortable with a handgun with a flashlight.

    For my wife, I’m comfortable with her use of a pistol caliber carbine with a flashlight and red dot.

    For the anti-gun lurkers, I don’t jerk off to any defensive gun use situations or truly believe that it’s likely to be necessary. But much like I have a first aid kit in each vehicle, a fire extinguisher, spare tire, accessible battery pack, and a paper towel roll with small shovel (and sanitizing hand wipes), I prefer to have it handy and know the limitations of each potential user than not having ever considered it.

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    I think I'd really like a semi-auto only MP5. Obviously I have no need for one, but holy shit, what a fun gun that would be to plink with.

    Bigitywebguy20
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    Any firearm and caliber is going to be capable of penetrating multiple interior and exterior walls.

    I have read the box o’truth thoroughly and viewed many videos on the subject. Paul Harrell just put out a good one a few weeks back.

    While true, the point is that it's not a question of "Will this penetrate multiple interior/exterior walls? (Yes/No)," but rather that there are calibers/firearms that can penetrate less than others.

    Also:
    Hollow points and frangible ammo might be something to look into for that reason. Frangible has poor penetration and will be less likely to stop an attacker, but that’s the trade off.

    Definitely at least take a look at the frangible options out there. Sure, the penetration isn't as deep as a lead-based round, but the lethality of the bullet is going to depend more heavily on shot placement. As with most things, familiarize, train, and becoming proficient with your firearm/ammunition and knowing the limitations of your ammunition (and firearm) are all interconnected. Frangible bullets are still lethal...granted, it might take more than a single shot to do it (and I don't think too many people are going to be all that interested in stealing your stuff after being shot). And, if you're really worried about a continued threat coming at you, can mix the magazine with frangible and non-frangible ammunition (first 2-3 rounds frangible, followed by non-frangible rounds in the rest of the magazine).

    Oh! Another benefit of frangible ammunition: they're going to be lead-free (yes, I know there are lead-free non-frangible rounds as well...but those tend to be made of harder, copper or brass).

    With all that said, I'll fully admit that I personally have my 5.56 rifle loaded with non-frangible hollow points, my shotgun with deep penetrator slugs (mostly used for outdoor use), and my pistols with a variety of hollow-points (although, I'm probably going to be switching my primary home defense gun to a pistol that shoots lead-free 5.7 rounds).

    In general, this is absolutely a great solution.

    However specifically, you have to be careful with this based on your location. It doesn't seem reasonable, but after you've defended yourself in your home you have a really high chance of having to defend yourself in court. And your local context can mean that mixing ammunition in the same magazine will be something you're hit with because cops tend to see that more often with criminals and, if you wind up in court, a prosecutor will absolutely have a cop on the stand talking about how much more often he sees that among the criminal element. It's something to keep in mind, because as the defender you are trying to act in a lawful manner but you are necessarily more constrained and required to contemplate your decisions to a much more granular level than a criminal assailant who is willing to beat your head in for your belongings.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
  • wonderpugwonderpug Registered User regular
    I wouldn’t just completely rule out pump shotguns. They have a lot of advantages for a home defense purpose, but I would agree you shouldn’t go that route unless you’re going to be able to practice using it. And really, whatever you end up getting you should be sure to practice with.

    Another option to consider is a revolver, as long as you’re fine with jumping through your region’s handgun hoops. If you’re expecting to practice minimally, a revolver is really easy to learn how to use. If it’s for home defense, look at full size .357 ones (not conceal carry size ones) and load with .38 special for practice.

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    wonderpug wrote: »
    I wouldn’t just completely rule out pump shotguns. They have a lot of advantages for a home defense purpose, but I would agree you shouldn’t go that route unless you’re going to be able to practice using it. And really, whatever you end up getting you should be sure to practice with.

    That the indoor range near me doesn't allow buckshot and I'd have to go a county over to a range that has very limited hours and lines to practice with a shotgun is one thing that's made me less inclined to them.

    That said, a 20 gauge shotgun should be in the contention for anyone thinking of going that route if ammo is readily available. A 20 gauge firing buckshot has around 4/5 the power of a 12 gauge but less than 4/5 the recoil. But finding 20 gauge buckshot is harder given how much more popular 12 gauge shotguns are.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    Paul Harrel's video on bird shot for home defense is great and unambiguous.



    tl;dr, 12 gauge 1 1/8th oz #8 shot will on average penetrate one standard interior wall and be caught by a second. 12 gauge 1 1/4 oz #4 shot will on average pass through two walls and be stopped by an exterior wall. 00 buck will tear through anything. A 28 gauge with 3/4oz of #9 shot, one of the weakest loads available, is still lethal at the average home defense distance of 5 yards.

    The drawbacks for shotguns are capacity, and the possibility of short-stroking a pump shotgun in a panic situation.

    matt has a problem on
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  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    Paul Harrel's video on bird shot for home defense is great and unambiguous.

    *snip*

    tl;dr, 12 gauge 1 1/8th oz #8 shot will on average penetrate one standard interior wall and be caught by a second. 12 gauge 1 1/4 oz #4 shot will on average pass through two walls and be stopped by an exterior wall. 00 buck will tear through anything. A 28 gauge with 3/4oz of #9 shot, one of the weakest loads available, is still lethal at the average home defense distance of 5 yards.

    The drawbacks for shotguns are capacity, and the possibility of short-stroking a pump shotgun in a panic situation.

    Sounds like a detachable magazine-fed semi-auto shotgun is what's on order! Panzer Arms BP-12 with a 20-round magazine...bam! problems solved.

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Thank you all for your advice. I have a one on one training class scheduled with an instructor at a local range for next week. They explained that this class provides a certificate which is needed to get a permit...isn't what the government website says, but I didn't argue.

    That's moot anyway because as you all guessed, with government facilities shut down I can't get a permit to purchase anyway.

    Hopefully this class with instructor recommendation will give me the confidence to buy a non-permitted gun for home defense.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    I think I'd really like a semi-auto only MP5. Obviously I have no need for one, but holy shit, what a fun gun that would be to plink with.
    The new pistol SP5s seem pretty swish.

    Bigity
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    Saying you want a semi-auto only MP5 willingly is like saying you want to drive a Lamborghini during NYC rush hour traffic.

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
    Doc
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Total Goober Registered User regular
    For first home defense, I would recommend a Pistol Caliber Carbine. They are short, light recoiling and will be less likely to over penetrate.

    Thegreatcow
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    For first home defense, I would recommend a Pistol Caliber Carbine. They are short, light recoiling and will be less likely to over penetrate.

    I can definitely vouch for the Beretta CX4. Tried it out as a rental at my range, and that thing is just about the softest shooting 9mm I've ever fired. Back when I was looking at my first semi-auto rifle (before I got the Tavor), I was kinda eyeballing the PS90. The main reasons why I opted against it was 1) barrel length was comically long, 2) the price (at the time, it was around $1.2k), and 3) scarcity/price of ammo (5.7mm is not the cheapest out there).

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Thank you all for your advice. I have a one on one training class scheduled with an instructor at a local range for next week. They explained that this class provides a certificate which is needed to get a permit...isn't what the government website says, but I didn't argue.

    That's moot anyway because as you all guessed, with government facilities shut down I can't get a permit to purchase anyway.

    Hopefully this class with instructor recommendation will give me the confidence to buy a non-permitted gun for home defense.

    Out of curiosity, I took a look at MN's state laws (I developed in interest in state criminal codes as a side interest from when I first bought a pocket knife long before I touched a gun). Since the state uses a list of models and makers, there are some semi-automatic rifles that don't need permits. It looks like Ruger's Mini 14 is exempt (not a huge surprise if the state based their law on the expired federal law from the 90s. Ruger was involved in the crafting of and lobbying for that legislation and made sure they came out better than their competitors) which is a 5.56 mm rifle.

    The M14 (not the same platform as the Mini 14 though the Mini 14 kind of looks like a smaller version of the M14) also seems exempt. It's originally a 7.62 mm assault rifle that the US military used before the M16 (the first military version of the AR-15) so it's clunkier and has the downsides I mentioned previously. It's another public domain design so multiple makers produce semi-automatic version of them but they're generally more expensive than 5.56 mm guns.

    Some pistol caliber semi-automatic carbines may be legal without a permit as well. I don't see them explicitly listed but I can see a politician or lawyer thinking "well since some pistol caliber carbines are made from the AR-15 platform they must all be illegal."

    And while we've discussed pump action shotguns, there are also semi-automatic shotguns made which won't have short stroking worries. They're not as easy to reload as the options above but they are there.

    The last thing I'll toss in is that lever action rifles look legal as well. .30-30 caliber lever action rifles are the quintessential deer rifle for people in rural Appalachia looking for meat. .357 lever action rifles/carbines are also a popular caliber and .357 is a popular defensive handgun caliber. The former might be a bit overkill but having something that can be used to harvest game does have its appeal. The latter will have cheaper ammo. While the latter would also be more prevalent in suburban and urban areas, I'm not sure the same is true of rural areas. I suppose .45 LC/Long Colt lever action rifles are also an option but I still mostly associate it with people doing cowboy LARPing at target shooting events. Reloading this things are more convoluted due to the tube magazines. Basically the bullet by bullet reload some guns in Red Dead Redemption have. But they have been proven to work against hostile humans.

    Steel Angel on
    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

    Steam Profile
    3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    edited March 24
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Thank you all for your advice. I have a one on one training class scheduled with an instructor at a local range for next week. They explained that this class provides a certificate which is needed to get a permit...isn't what the government website says, but I didn't argue.

    That's moot anyway because as you all guessed, with government facilities shut down I can't get a permit to purchase anyway.

    Hopefully this class with instructor recommendation will give me the confidence to buy a non-permitted gun for home defense.

    Out of curiosity, I took a look at MN's state laws (I developed in interest in state criminal codes as a side interest from when I first bought a pocket knife long before I touched a gun). Since the state uses a list of models and makers, there are some semi-automatic rifles that don't need permits. It looks like Ruger's Mini 14 is exempt (not a huge surprise if the state based their law on the expired federal law from the 90s. Ruger was involved in the crafting of and lobbying for that legislation and made sure they came out better than their competitors) which is a 5.56 mm rifle.

    The M14 (not the same platform as the Mini 14 though the Mini 14 kind of looks like a smaller version of the M14) also seems exempt. It's originally a 7.62 mm assault rifle that the US military used before the M16 (the first military version of the AR-15) so it's clunkier and has the downsides I mentioned previously. It's another public domain design so multiple makers produce semi-automatic version of them but they're generally more expensive than 5.56 mm guns.

    Some pistol caliber semi-automatic carbines may be legal without a permit as well. I don't see them explicitly listed but I can see a politician or lawyer thinking "well since some pistol caliber carbines are made from the AR-15 platform they must all be illegal."

    And while we've discussed pump action shotguns, there are also semi-automatic shotguns made which won't have short stroking worries. They're not as easy to reload as the options above but they are there.

    The last thing I'll toss in is that lever action rifles look legal as well. .30-30 caliber lever action rifles are the quintessential deer rifle for people in rural Appalachia looking for meat. .357 lever action rifles/carbines are also a popular caliber and .357 is a popular defensive handgun caliber. The former might be a bit overkill but having something that can be used to harvest game does have its appeal. The latter will have cheaper ammo. While the latter would also be more prevalent in suburban and urban areas, I'm not sure the same is true of rural areas. I suppose .45 LC/Long Colt lever action rifles are also an option but I still mostly associate it with people doing cowboy LARPing at target shooting events. Reloading this things are more convoluted due to the tube magazines. Basically the bullet by bullet reload some guns in Red Dead Redemption have. But they have been proven to work against hostile humans.

    As I mentioned above: Panzer Arms BP-12

    The only issue I've run into during the break-in period has been the occasional stovepipe.

    EDIT - the reloading is pretty dang easy with it: eject magazine, insert new magazine, either pull/release the charging handle or press the slide release.

    Erlkönig on
    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Thank you all for your advice. I have a one on one training class scheduled with an instructor at a local range for next week. They explained that this class provides a certificate which is needed to get a permit...isn't what the government website says, but I didn't argue.

    That's moot anyway because as you all guessed, with government facilities shut down I can't get a permit to purchase anyway.

    Hopefully this class with instructor recommendation will give me the confidence to buy a non-permitted gun for home defense.

    Out of curiosity, I took a look at MN's state laws (I developed in interest in state criminal codes as a side interest from when I first bought a pocket knife long before I touched a gun). Since the state uses a list of models and makers, there are some semi-automatic rifles that don't need permits. It looks like Ruger's Mini 14 is exempt (not a huge surprise if the state based their law on the expired federal law from the 90s. Ruger was involved in the crafting of and lobbying for that legislation and made sure they came out better than their competitors) which is a 5.56 mm rifle.

    The M14 (not the same platform as the Mini 14 though the Mini 14 kind of looks like a smaller version of the M14) also seems exempt. It's originally a 7.62 mm assault rifle that the US military used before the M16 (the first military version of the AR-15) so it's clunkier and has the downsides I mentioned previously. It's another public domain design so multiple makers produce semi-automatic version of them but they're generally more expensive than 5.56 mm guns.

    Some pistol caliber semi-automatic carbines may be legal without a permit as well. I don't see them explicitly listed but I can see a politician or lawyer thinking "well since some pistol caliber carbines are made from the AR-15 platform they must all be illegal."

    And while we've discussed pump action shotguns, there are also semi-automatic shotguns made which won't have short stroking worries. They're not as easy to reload as the options above but they are there.

    The last thing I'll toss in is that lever action rifles look legal as well. .30-30 caliber lever action rifles are the quintessential deer rifle for people in rural Appalachia looking for meat. .357 lever action rifles/carbines are also a popular caliber and .357 is a popular defensive handgun caliber. The former might be a bit overkill but having something that can be used to harvest game does have its appeal. The latter will have cheaper ammo. While the latter would also be more prevalent in suburban and urban areas, I'm not sure the same is true of rural areas. I suppose .45 LC/Long Colt lever action rifles are also an option but I still mostly associate it with people doing cowboy LARPing at target shooting events. Reloading this things are more convoluted due to the tube magazines. Basically the bullet by bullet reload some guns in Red Dead Redemption have. But they have been proven to work against hostile humans.

    As I mentioned above: Panzer Arms BP-12

    The only issue I've run into during the break-in period has been the occasional stovepipe.

    EDIT - the reloading is pretty dang easy with it: eject magazine, insert new magazine, either pull/release the charging handle or press the slide release.

    How is storing fully loaded magazines with that? Box magazines messing with shells over a period of time has been an issue with other semi-auto box mag shotguns.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

    Steam Profile
    3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
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