Options

I love [VIRTUAL REALITY], it's so bad.

13567102

Posts

  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    I'm pretty lost as to what the deal is with Zenimax, Facebook, these NDA breaches, and the Rift. To the best of my (partial) knowledge, Facebook basically bought out the Rift folks and it was a Facebook product now anyway, so how could they basically be suing themselves for NDA breaches?

    Obviously there are subtleties here I'm missing.
    From what I understand (I'm probably wrong), they were suing (partly) for ownership of John Carmack's brain, which belongs to John Carmack, due to it's legally annoying tendency of being present in his skull.

    Because of course it's totally not possible (/s) for someone to write functionally the same bit of code twice in very different ways.

    Zenimax's latest tact has been to claim that modern VR would not be possible without them and they want four billion dollars.

    Of course, no mention of Valve has been made in all of this. Considering how closely Valve and Oculus were collaborating before Facebook purchased Oculus, I'm surprised Zenimax isn't suing them.

    Which raises the question: If Zenimax's lawsuit has any merit at all, why isn't Valve named in this lawsuit? They have the most successful platform right now, and engineers already talked about how close the Vive and Rift are in technology terms. Which leads me to believe that the lawsuit is meritless, and Zenimax are trying to profit from other people's work.

    They just received a judgement for 500 million dollars. I believe the lawsuit is specific to Oculus because they have Carmack -- there's no indication of Valve receiving technology from their friendly times with Oculus, but there definitely was some sort of contract between Carmack and his former employer, Zenimax. They're clearly interpreting it differently, but the core of the case has nothing to do with Valve.

    The payout is not relating to any IP, copyright, or technology. Essentially it confirms Oculus stole nothing from Zenimax.

  • Options
    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    The comments from ycombinator are pretty enlightening https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13544871
    If the original complaint is to be believed(1) - which Juror's found credible -the course of events, tldr was something like this:
    - Zenimax bought ID software for >$100m(1) on June 24, 2009.
    - Carmack signed up with Zenimax for an earn-out / golden-handcuffs agreement that ended in June of 2013.
    - Carmack was enthralled with VR.
    - Carmack found Palmer via an internet forum, reached out to get a rift to try.
    - Carmack tinkered with the Rift, adding sensors, building calibration, etc. while on the clock / using hardware from zenimax.
    - Carmack brought a prototype of the Rift working on Doom 3 to E3 with him providing Oculus with their early press.
    - Zenimax realized the extent to which Carmack was enabling Oculus and worked to negotiate equity with Brendan Iribe.
    - Oculus sent Zenimax a proposal to discuss a partnership Sept 21, 2012 but never followed up / followed through.
    - Carmack quit Zenimax the day his contract was up in June 2013, joined Oculus as CTO a few months later and took his 5 best guys with him.
    - FB bought Oculus March 2014, Zenmix got pissed and sued.
    Clearly it's Carmack's genius that made this viable.
    It's Carmack's video that lent credibility to the campaign.
    And it's Carmack's original IP (Doom) that made the demos compelling.
    It may be a weird system that Zenimax is entitled to $500m but since Carmack was an employee, under contract with Zenimax - who had paid >$100m to buy him / his IP - it sounds like this was a fair verdict.
    (1) https://www.scribd.com/document/274211118/Judge-denies-Facebook-motion
    (2) http://www.gamespot.com/articles/zenimax-raised-105-million-to-buy-id/1100-6213068/

    There's also this http://www.polygon.com/2017/2/1/14474198/oculus-lawsuit-verdict

    The $500 million is actually several different penalties added up paid by different parties, but includes breaking NDA, false designation, and also copyright infringement.
    Of the $500 million, Oculus is paying out $200 million for breaking the NDA and $50 million for copyright infringement. Oculus and Luckey each have to pay $50 million for false designation. And Iribe has to pay $150 million for the same, final count.

    False designation seems close to trademark for IP laws from my understanding? NDA basically trade secrets? And copyright was mentioned. So all the penalties basically fall under the various IP laws.

    Dracil on
    3DS: 2105-8644-6304
    Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
    MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    So basically Zenimax is being compensated for having one of their employees spend company time and resources working on something that they didn't benefit from. They aren't getting any ownership or financial stake in what he actually developed, but they do get compensated for his silliness in spending his time on it.

  • Options
    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Well yes, theft of company time and resources is still theft, especially when the theft was arguably done by someone your company spent $100m to acquire. Maybe they didn't get benefits, but I think they succeeded in arguing for damages, at least to the jury.

    Keep in mind there'll be appeals and stuff so that $500m is probably gonna get brought down in any case.

    Dracil on
    3DS: 2105-8644-6304
    Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
    MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
  • Options
    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    So basically Zenimax is being compensated for having one of their employees spend company time and resources working on something that they didn't benefit from. They aren't getting any ownership or financial stake in what he actually developed, but they do get compensated for his silliness in spending his time on it.

    Sure. And my response was directly in response to calling the lawsuit frivolous. It appears that there was a lot of merit to it -- I never asserted that Oculus stole technology from Zenimax, and so I'm not really certain why you said that. Also, they did get dinged for copyright infringement, so that part of your claim is false (pending appeal).

    Fiatil on
    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    I've been having fun with The Crystal Rift on PSVR. It's a very VERY basic dungeon crawler, with very unimpressive graphics, with grid based movement, which really reminds me of Dungeon Master of the Atari ST days, but in the VR mode, while your movement is fixed, you can freely look around (you are wearing a kind of miner's hat with a headlight) which is surprisingly effective; and in VR mode you can actually see "secret room buttons" far more clearly because you can see them poking out in glorious 3D.

    It won't win any awards, but it's cheap, and immersive.

    And it's a title where the dungeon rooms feel actually small; so when you stand up it feels like your head is near the ceiling; unlike some of the other VR movies/games where I have the impressions that my body is huge or fellow humans are 3-4 meters tall.

    Me likey :biggrin:

    PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
  • Options
    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    What have you tried up to now? And VR sickness is a thing, a friend struggled to get through a lot of stuff (even some of the up/down bits in rush of blood)

    Also do you have move controllers? They've largely been the experiences I've been most impressed by
    I don't have the move controllers, just yet. Bit out of my reach for the moment, but they're on 'the list'.

    I've tried all of the free stuff I could, like the pack-in demo disc and Playroom. I have RE7 and Thumper, but haven't tried their VR modes yet.

    I found the Mario 64-style platformer in Playroom to be the best experience thus far, I could really see myself playing something like Crash Bandicoot/Ratchet & Clank VR if it was done in the same way.

    Playing 'Rush of Blood' (the demo version) just made me laugh (suspension of disbelief failure?), no nausea or even anything scary to it. I presume it at least makes aiming easier with a dual move setup?

    It's not too bad with just the DS4, but human limbs aren't supposed to bend that way. :lol:

    Rush of blood with move controllers is my GOTY, but then again I love light gun games. It definitely needs dual aiming for the most fun. It's never really scary, it's basically a ghost train. It's a bit goofy but very visceral with the right aiming.

    I'd say all of my most impressive experiences have been with the move controllers:

    Job Simulator
    Batman
    Rush of blood

    I'm really enjoying holoball too from the 30mins I played last night.

    Definitely try thumper, there's no sense of presence really, but that game taking up your whole view is mighty impressive and trippy

    Steam: Sir_Grinch
    PSN: SirGrinchX
    Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
  • Options
    PrAyTeLLaPrAyTeLLa Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    The payout is not relating to any IP, copyright, or technology. Essentially it confirms Oculus stole nothing from Zenimax.

    Not true.

    From pages 35-36 :

    "Question 7: Did any of the following Defendants directly infringe upon any of ZeniMax or id Software's copyrights?"

    "Oculus: yes"
    "Question 8: Did any of the following Defendants vicariously infringe upon any of ZeniMax or id Software's copyrights?"

    "Palmer Luckey: yes"
    "Brendan Iribe: yes"
    "Question 9: Did any of the following Defendants contributorily infringe upon any of ZeniMax or id Software's copyrights?"

    "Palmer Luckey: yes"
    "Brendan Iribe: yes"
    "John Carmack: yes

    PrAyTeLLa on
  • Options
    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Well, they sure sounds like they're going to lose more than $500 million. Smart people are stupid.

  • Options
    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Recorded a video of me playing Holoball last night to see what I really looked like. Conclusion: Supercool.

    vl3bm9wp64tt.png

    In fact here's the video. Yes, I'm awkward. Yes, my room is a mess.

    https://youtu.be/4g9DrF_XQWg

    Mr_Grinch on
    Steam: Sir_Grinch
    PSN: SirGrinchX
    Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
  • Options
    Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    Now record yourself playing Fruit Ninja VR :wink:

    PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
  • Options
    Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    Now record yourself playing Fruit Ninja VR :wink:

    I've been considering buying it, is it any good? It always seemed quite a lot for what appears a fairly basic game.

    I mean holoball is basic but it was cheaper!

    Steam: Sir_Grinch
    PSN: SirGrinchX
    Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
  • Options
    PrAyTeLLaPrAyTeLLa Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    http://www.roadtovr.com/zenimax-v-oculus-facebook-vr-lawsuit-jury-verdict-ruling/

    This has around 40 screenshots of the answers the jury gave to the questions that were in their verdict.

    How Carmack got away with it all is the real amazing part. Surely he is now unemployable to anyone else.

    PrAyTeLLa on
  • Options
    GSMGSM Registered User regular
    Carmack told Luckey over and over to not use Doom 3 to advertise the Rift, and he did it anyway. And then Carmack joined the company built from that infringement. So there's your infringement and complicity right there. Too bad Luckey didn't do the right thing back at the start.

    We'll get back there someday.
  • Options
    TubeTube Registered User admin
    PrAyTeLLa wrote: »
    http://www.roadtovr.com/zenimax-v-oculus-facebook-vr-lawsuit-jury-verdict-ruling/

    This has around 40 screenshots of the answers the jury gave to the questions that were in their verdict.

    How Carmack got away with it all is the real amazing part. Surely he is now unemployable to anyone else.

    Any tech company would chew off their right arm to hire John Carmack.

  • Options
    StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    Mr_Grinch wrote: »
    Now record yourself playing Fruit Ninja VR :wink:

    I've been considering buying it, is it any good? It always seemed quite a lot for what appears a fairly basic game.

    I mean holoball is basic but it was cheaper!
    I own both and Fruit Ninja is definitely a much more polished experience.

    I am likely an outlier for HoloBall, but I found a lot of bugs in that game. It crashed for me often, and threw error messages after every point was scored. An error message in VR breaks the VR experience and puts you back into cinematic mode until you acknowledge it and then you go back into VR. The player avatar is malformed with arms and legs that are longer than the player body, which ends up with the avatar squatting like a chimpanzee during play.

    Fruit Ninja, on the other hand, just... worked. It has the usual tracking errors which can be a bit annoying for a game that requires precision aiming, but aside from that it was a flawless experience. Not a lot of depth there, but hey... it's Fruit Ninja, not Sid Meyer's Civilization! What did you expect?


    26904.png
  • Options
    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Fruit ninja is just overpriced for what it is. It's a game you play for five minutes at a time.

  • Options
    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    So, final report on the cameras:

    I'm using command strips to mount the cameras to the wall behind my computer desk, sticking them directly to the backs of the cameras, detached from their stand. Works good. Haven't done a lot of testing so far, but seems to be better than when they were sitting on my desk.

  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    John Carmack's response to the lawsuit
    The Zenimax vs Oculus trial is over. I disagreed with their characterization, misdirection, and selective omissions. I never tried to hide or wipe any evidence, and all of my data is accounted for, contrary to some stories being spread.

    Being sued sucks. For the most part, the process went as I expected.

    The exception was the plaintiff’s expert that said Oculus’s implementations of the techniques at issue were “non-literally copied” from the source code I wrote while at Id Software.

    This is just not true. The authors at Oculus never had access to the Id C++ VR code, only a tiny bit of plaintext shader code from the demo. I was genuinely interested in hearing how the paid expert would spin a web of code DNA between completely unrelated codebases.

    Early on in his testimony, I wanted to stand up say “Sir! As a man of (computer) science, I challenge you to defend the efficacy of your methodology with data, including false positive and negative rates.” After he had said he was “Absolutely certain there was non-literal copying” in several cases, I just wanted to shout “You lie!”. By the end, after seven cases of “absolutely certain”, I was wondering if gangsters had kidnapped his grandchildren and were holding them for ransom.

    If he had said “this supports a determination of”, or dozens of other possible phrases, then it would have fit in with everything else, but I am offended that a distinguished academic would say that his ad-hoc textual analysis makes him “absolutely certain” of anything. That isn’t the language of scientific inquiry.

    The notion of non-literal copying is probably delicious to many lawyers, since a sufficient application of abstraction and filtering can show that just about everything is related. There are certainly some cases where it is true, such as when you translate a book into another language, but copyright explicitly does not apply to concepts or algorithms, so you can’t abstract very far from literal copying before comparing. As with many legal questions, there isn’t a bright clear line where you need to stop.

    The analogy that the expert gave to the jury was that if someone wrote a book that was basically Harry Potter with the names changed, it would still be copyright infringement. I agree; that is the literary equivalent of changing the variable names when you copy source code. However, if you abstract Harry Potter up a notch or two, you get Campbell’s Hero’s Journey, which also maps well onto Star Wars and hundreds of other stories. These are not copyright infringement.

    There are objective measures of code similarity that can be quoted, like the edit distance between abstract syntax trees, but here the expert hand identified the abstract steps that the code fragments were performing, made slides that nobody in the courtroom could actually read, filled with colored boxes outlining the purportedly analogous code in each case. In some cases, the abstractions he came up with were longer than the actual code they were supposed to be abstracting.

    It was ridiculous. Even without being able to read the code on the slides, you could tell the steps varied widely in operation count, were often split up and in different order, and just looked different. The following week, our side’s code expert basically just took the same slides their expert produced (the judge had to order them to be turned over) and blew each of them up across several slides so you could actually read them. I had hoped that would have demolished the credibility of the testimony, but I guess I overestimated the impact.

    Notably, I wasn’t allowed to read the full expert report, only listen to him in trial, and even his expert testimony in trial is under seal, rather than in the public record. This is surely intentional -- if the code examples were released publicly, the internet would have viciously mocked the analysis. I still have a level of morbid curiosity about the several hundred-page report.

    The expert witness circuit is surely tempting for many academics, since a distinguished expert can get paid $600+ an hour to prepare a weighty report that supports a lawyer’s case. I don’t have any issue with that, but testifying in court as an expert should be as much a part of your permanent public record as the journal papers you publish. In many cases, the consequences are significant. There should be a danger to your reputation if you are imprudent.

  • Options
    BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    I would be supremely interested to see what happens to that expert testimony if let out into the wild. Mr. Carmack seems very convinced this guy perjured himself.

    Would they ever unseal those court documents? How does that work?

    Between you and me, Peggy, I smoked this Juul and it did UNTHINKABLE things to my mind and body...
  • Options
    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    BouwsT wrote: »
    I would be supremely interested to see what happens to that expert testimony if let out into the wild. Mr. Carmack seems very convinced this guy perjured himself.

    Would they ever unseal those court documents? How does that work?

    Carmack's a genius, but he's also a bit of a (pretty well earned) smug asshole at times. I don't plan on weighing his personal views on the matter much for my interpretation of how just the lawsuit is or isn't -- they're appealing it, and if the stuff he's saying has merit then they'll be vindicated in the end. Facebook has some pretty decent lawyers, I doubt they're going to just overlook something like that.

    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Zenimax responded to Carmack. The first part of the article is basically the Carmack response above. Quoting the Zenimax update.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/290678/Zenimax_vs_Oculus_Carmack_denies_allegations_slams_expert_analysis.php
    "In addition to expert testimony finding both literal and non-literal copying, Oculus programmers themselves admitted using Zenimax’s copyrighted code (one saying he cut and pasted it into the Oculus SDK), and [Oculus VR co-founder] Brendan Iribe, in writing, requested a license for the 'source code shared by Carmack' they needed for the Oculus Rift. Not surprisingly, the jury found Zenimax code copyrights were infringed. The Oculus Rift was built on a foundation of Zenimax technology."

    "As for the denial of wiping, the Court’s independent expert found 92 percent of Carmack’s hard drive was wiped—all data was permanently destroyed, right after Carmack got notice of the lawsuit, and that his affidavit denying the wiping was false. Those are the hard facts.

    Though I'm not sure how much use there is to keep dwelling on this. Appeal has been filed. More will come out of that.

    I do wish stuff wasn't sealed though. Would've been fun to pore over that.

    Dracil on
    3DS: 2105-8644-6304
    Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
    MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
  • Options
    FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Dracil wrote: »
    Zenimax responded to Carmack. The first part of the article is basically the Carmack response above. Quoting the Zenimax update.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/290678/Zenimax_vs_Oculus_Carmack_denies_allegations_slams_expert_analysis.php
    "In addition to expert testimony finding both literal and non-literal copying, Oculus programmers themselves admitted using Zenimax’s copyrighted code (one saying he cut and pasted it into the Oculus SDK), and [Oculus VR co-founder] Brendan Iribe, in writing, requested a license for the 'source code shared by Carmack' they needed for the Oculus Rift. Not surprisingly, the jury found Zenimax code copyrights were infringed. The Oculus Rift was built on a foundation of Zenimax technology."

    "As for the denial of wiping, the Court’s independent expert found 92 percent of Carmack’s hard drive was wiped—all data was permanently destroyed, right after Carmack got notice of the lawsuit, and that his affidavit denying the wiping was false. Those are the hard facts.

    Though I'm not sure how much use there is to keep dwelling on this. Appeal has been filed. More will come out of that.

    Heh, it's almost like posting either party directly claiming they were right/wrong outside of the court room is useless as evidence for this. The best stuff we have are the court documents from the decision that was just handed down, but that can also get torn apart pending appeal.

    Fiatil on
    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    Drake ChambersDrake Chambers Lay out my formal shorts. Registered User regular
    I have some experience re: expert testimony in criminal trials, and there's value to Carmack's assertion about the phrase "absolutely certain" (if in fact that was the phrase that was used).

    Forensic examiners generally know not to use language like that -- but these are people who are regularly called to testify in court. Competent defense attorneys would jump on that testimony in cross-examination.

    I'd bet that this expert isn't an experienced witness, FWIW, and those parts of his testimony will likely be used by the defense in their appeal.

  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    Dracil wrote: »
    Zenimax responded to Carmack. The first part of the article is basically the Carmack response above. Quoting the Zenimax update.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/290678/Zenimax_vs_Oculus_Carmack_denies_allegations_slams_expert_analysis.php
    "In addition to expert testimony finding both literal and non-literal copying, Oculus programmers themselves admitted using Zenimax’s copyrighted code (one saying he cut and pasted it into the Oculus SDK), and [Oculus VR co-founder] Brendan Iribe, in writing, requested a license for the 'source code shared by Carmack' they needed for the Oculus Rift. Not surprisingly, the jury found Zenimax code copyrights were infringed. The Oculus Rift was built on a foundation of Zenimax technology."

    "As for the denial of wiping, the Court’s independent expert found 92 percent of Carmack’s hard drive was wiped—all data was permanently destroyed, right after Carmack got notice of the lawsuit, and that his affidavit denying the wiping was false. Those are the hard facts.

    Though I'm not sure how much use there is to keep dwelling on this. Appeal has been filed. More will come out of that.

    Heh, it's almost like posting either party directly claiming they were right/wrong outside of the court room is useless as evidence for this. The best stuff we have are the court documents from the decision that was just handed down, but that can also get torn apart pending appeal.

    You're correct, but at the same time, there is only so many different ways code accomplishing the same goal can be rewritten to look different. To an untrained eye, two algorithms written by the same person to accomplish the same goal will look the same, and one may be deemed to be copied from the other, regardless of whether that is true or not.

  • Options
    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    TBH I would still be inclined to take Carmack's side in this case.

    Copyright law(s) as they/it stand(s) throughout the world right now are far from ideal.

  • Options
    PrAyTeLLaPrAyTeLLa Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    I'd bet that this expert isn't an experienced witness, FWIW, and those parts of his testimony will likely be used by the defense in their appeal.

    Its not a state secret who it would be, it was reported during the trial Zemimax hired David Dobbin, computer science professor from Princeton University.
    Dracil wrote: »
    Appeal has been filed. More will come out of that.

    Has an appeal actually been filed? And by who?

    PrAyTeLLa on
  • Options
    No Great NameNo Great Name FRAUD DETECTED Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    No Great Name was warned for this.
    I would never side with oculus, or its employees, on anything. Ever.

    Tube on
    PSN: NoGreatName Steam:SirToons Twitch: SirToons
    sirtoons.png
  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Well, if that "expert" David Dobbin really did use the Harry Potter analogy Carmack mentioned, then he has no business telling uneducated juries a thing.

  • Options
    KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    Every time I try to order a PSVR bundle from Gamestop it gets canceled or it runs into a problem processing the order.

    My cards work everywhere else. They are up to something.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I would never side with oculus, or its employees, on anything. Ever.

    That kinda just means your opinion doesn't really matter anymore since you've already decided in everything :?

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    PrAyTeLLaPrAyTeLLa Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Well, if that "expert" David Dobbin really did use the Harry Potter analogy Carmack mentioned, then he has no business telling uneducated juries a thing.

    Not sure how you can say that. It is a good simple analogy. How it fits with the particular evidence he related it to I don't know, and i doubt you would know either. I'm certainly going to side with a legally decided version of events than someone who is fine with stealing emails and scrubbing drives when they are supposed to hand it over as evidence.

    Coding genius or not, he's not the more trustworthy guy.

  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    PrAyTeLLa wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Well, if that "expert" David Dobbin really did use the Harry Potter analogy Carmack mentioned, then he has no business telling uneducated juries a thing.

    Not sure how you can say that. It is a good simple analogy. How it fits with the particular evidence he related it to I don't know, and i doubt you would know either. I'm certainly going to side with a legally decided version of events than someone who is fine with stealing emails and scrubbing drives when they are supposed to hand it over as evidence.

    Coding genius or not, he's not the more trustworthy guy.

    It is not a good simple analogy.

    Code is not a piece of art like a written story. There are only so many ways to accomplish the same thing with the same programming language, and code that does a certain thing will look very similar to separately written code that does the same thing. Particularly when talking about code that is solving a problem for the first time, beacuse you only know one solution so far.

    It would be trivial for a motivated expert to convince a bunch of uneducated jurors that the code was stolen because it looks similar.

    To stress, what I think happened is that Carmack wrote tracking code while at Zenimax, then told Oculus how he did it, and they recreated it using the same solution. That is not theft, but it would be really easy to convince a jury that it was.

    Dhalphir on
  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Dhalphir was warned for this.
    I would never side with oculus, or its employees, on anything. Ever.

    show me on the doll where oculus hurt you

    and you need to do better than "blah blah exclusives" too

    Tube on
  • Options
    PrAyTeLLaPrAyTeLLa Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    To stress, what I think happened is that Carmack wrote tracking code while at Zenimax, then told Oculus how he did it, and they recreated it using the same solution. That is not theft, but it would be really easy to convince a jury that it was.

    And how does this get explained?

    "Oculus programmers themselves admitted using Zenimax’s copyrighted code (one saying he cut and pasted it into the Oculus SDK), and [Oculus VR co-founder] Brendan Iribe, in writing, requested a license for the 'source code shared by Carmack' they needed for the Oculus Rift."

    PrAyTeLLa on
  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    PrAyTeLLa wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    To stress, what I think happened is that Carmack wrote tracking code while at Zenimax, then told Oculus how he did it, and they recreated it using the same solution. That is not theft, but it would be really easy to convince a jury that it was.

    And how does this get explained?

    "Oculus programmers themselves admitted using Zenimax’s copyrighted code (one saying he cut and pasted it into the Oculus SDK), and [Oculus VR co-founder] Brendan Iribe, in writing, requested a license for the 'source code shared by Carmack' they needed for the Oculus Rift."

    There are a lot of ways that can go after that. Perhaps once Zenimax presumably did not want to go ahead with a licensing deal, they ceased all use of the code and rewrote it themselves. If Zenimax's code never made it into a product available to consumers, there is little they've done wrong.

    As far as I know it's been established that the commercial Rift software and firmware does NOT still include any Zenimax copyright, so at the very least they do not still use it.

    Dhalphir on
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    PrAyTeLLa wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Well, if that "expert" David Dobbin really did use the Harry Potter analogy Carmack mentioned, then he has no business telling uneducated juries a thing.

    Not sure how you can say that. It is a good simple analogy. How it fits with the particular evidence he related it to I don't know, and i doubt you would know either. I'm certainly going to side with a legally decided version of events than someone who is fine with stealing emails and scrubbing drives when they are supposed to hand it over as evidence.

    Coding genius or not, he's not the more trustworthy guy.

    It is not a good simple analogy.

    Code is not a piece of art like a written story. There are only so many ways to accomplish the same thing with the same programming language, and code that does a certain thing will look very similar to separately written code that does the same thing. Particularly when talking about code that is solving a problem for the first time, beacuse you only know one solution so far.

    It would be trivial for a motivated expert to convince a bunch of uneducated jurors that the code was stolen because it looks similar.

    To stress, what I think happened is that Carmack wrote tracking code while at Zenimax, then told Oculus how he did it, and they recreated it using the same solution. That is not theft, but it would be really easy to convince a jury that it was.

    I agree mostly, but not really on your last paragraph. Taking novel, unique ideas from one company and selling to another could often be seen as theft. Not saying that's what happened here, I'm not following the details, I just think in general your statement isn't really correct

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    PrAyTeLLaPrAyTeLLa Registered User regular
  • Options
    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    It really seems like the majority of the copyright issues centered on the test to determine whether the code was the same or not.

    Without knowing the code in question, none of us can make any judgements as to whether it was or not, I suppose.

    My gut feeling is it wasn't the same. Code can look too similar to outsiders to trust a jury to make that determination, and trusting an expert paid by Zenimax is equally silly.

    Dhalphir on
  • Options
    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Not knowing the specifics of the American legal system, would it have been possible for them to have had an expert witness who was more free of bias?
    Or do one of the sides/plaintiffs always have to pay for that person's time?

This discussion has been closed.