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Honestly, I'm just tired of the 'polarization' argument. What polarization where? The only people citing that garbage are old white assholes that are perpetually on the fence about how right or wrong the white supremacists are - the same folks who endlessly bitch about 'liberal arrogance' and never utter even a single whisper in defiance of the racist pieces of shit on the right. Because those are their pieces of shit, see.
Dedicated die hard right wingers that want to go full Churchill can come visit anytime. Anyone else in that camp that wants to wring their hands and talk about how 'polarizing' everything is can kiss my ass and go take their kids picnicking with the fucking Nazis, because no, appeasement is not the right tool for this job. Never has been and never will be.
The problem is historical precedent. Now granted, we don't know how bad this could get, but generally, violent revolt against executive power does not result in the most stable of times.
+1
ahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I need to vent/rant at something
We called my father today to have our weekly chat while mom is here livng with us. We didn't talk last week because we were on holiday. So it's been just over a week since the new administration is in place and we've all seen what is happening.
My family is Jewish and I am, to say the least, concerned. I might be being hyperbolic about a few things, but I'm concerned. Especially with Bannon... Anyways, I asked my father seriously whether he had a plan or not to get out of the country. He laughed at me and jokingly said that so long as Canada doesn't put up a wall, he'd go through via Buffalo/Niagara. All while laughing at the mere notion of needing to get out.
He reminded me that there's not much that we can do, that there are checks and balances in place in the system and we just need to wait until 2018 to see how the country reacts to Trump and whether they vote back in the Republicans to Congress or not as to whether to panic. He asked me to put my faith in Susan Fucking Collins (R-ME) to be the stalward defender of the Republic. He ignored my dismay at this, my evidence that Susan Fucking Collins hasn't done a goddamned thing in the last 8 years to defend the Republic from anything and has voted along with her fellow republicans every fucking single step. "But maybe this time she'll realize that things are going too far and she'll say something. Trust in the system" ARGH No. No I cannot trust in the system, I cannot trust Susan Fucking Collins to be the defender of America. She has no backbone.
My father then went on to say that John Lewis needs to be out in front and making his voice heard in protests against things because "This is what we fought for". And he wouldn't understand that John Lewis is doing just that, but he's not the voice and the face that we need right now. We then argued over whether Bernie Sanders is the voice of the Democratic Party at the moment (He says that Sanders is, I vehemently disagree). I tried to point out that only one Democrat Senator has actually stood up to Trumps cabinet picks (Kirsten Gillibrand D-NY) and was told that it didn't matter because she's too young and has no experience and so isn't in running for the Presidency at all. Ignoring the fact that Father said the exact, same, fucking thing about Obama and see how well THAT turned out. My father is convinced that Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and maybe Amy Klobuchar are the next leaders and they should have voices. He doesn't pay attention to the fact that Warren doesn't want to be President, that Sanders is of the "we should wait and see what Trump does" crowd, and I'm ok with agreeing about Klobuchar for the moment.
And of course the Senators are approving the cabinet picks, it's what's accepted. The President is allowed to have a Cabinet of those he chooses to advise him. Father did not agree that this should only be acceptable for qualified candidates and not people who want to destroy the world, or at the very least the Department that they're the Head of. Trying to explain to my father that Trump is literally putting Nazis in charge of the government and we should be fighting this tooth and nail, I get told to be patient, there are checks and balances in place and everything will be ok.
But then, in the same fucking breath, he tells me about how he's upset with the Travel Ban and that he tells people that all they have to do si replace the worlds "muslim" with "jew" and it's the 1930s again. And I just. But. HOW CAN YOU ADMIT THAT AND NOT SEE THE NEED TO MAYBE HAVE A PLAN OF ESCAPE!?!?!
How can he admit that there are Nazis being put in charge, actual literal fucking Nazis and not the 'haha' funny Blues Brothers type of Nazis, but actual goddamend white supremacist Nazis and then laugh at me for voicing concern for him and his safety.
Just.
ARGH.
And his words to me when I get exasperated? "It's only been a week. Have some patience". ARGHGHGHG
Otto Frank thought the same thing. Do you not remember through the years and years of Holocaust Rememberance Education that you gave me that a good majority of Jews also said "But we're German citizens! Let's give the Fuhrer some time, it's not that serious, oh shit I"m dead now"
So, given that trump has been president for less then a month and is potentially looking at wide spread rioting in response to his seemingly endless stream of half baked EO's, how long is it going to be before the legislative branch impeaches him?
Because some of them have to be wondering what's the point in having three branches of government if the president can simply rule by decree and I can't imagine congressmen and senators will be especially thrilled to deal with being rendered obsolete.
There was an article somewhere back during the republican primaries which predicted that Trump would win the presidency by a slim margin and then would be impeached and removed from office only a few months after beginning his term for doing the same type of stuff he's doing now. They must be wizards or something, let me see if I can track it down.
(At least I hope they're wizards, fingers crossed.)
I think it was a professor who predicted it exactly like that, yeah
Specifically he said his company, which did home foreclosures, did not "robo-sign," which is to have an employee sign off on hundreds of foreclosures in a short period of time without reviewing the documents for accuracy. Leading to things like a woman who had to spend five years fighting when Mnuchin's company robo-signed a foreclosure on her home asserting it was vacant and past due, when she was living there and up to date on payments. Not only did he lie but there's blatant evidence of the falsehood, including employees testifying under oath that they robo-signed shit and a judge throwing Mnuchin's appeals out of court because they robo-signed shit.
Also important: the rules against robo-signing are part of Dodd Frank, regulatory legislation Mnuchin wants to gut.
I saved you a click but you should click anyway to support this paper, and also because I barely scraped the surface of the awful this guy is responsible for.
This is not helping my pants-shitting fear for the future of this country.
I read the article and I'm not going to empty my bowels just yet. There is hope and advice in there. Really speaks to what we need to be doing as we organize. Solve people's problems and point out the administration's inability to help them. We need to meet them on the street and talk and be human beings. They are victims and not the enemy. We must avoid becoming a faceless enemy. We must avoid being labeled as "illegals" and "liberals". This has to happen at the ground level. You can do this at work without being political. Don't argue with your inner circle about politics. you must remain strong and be willing to listen. I think you must also not get into the trap of disproving people's arguments. That's not the way. Listen to what they want, and think of ways to help them get it.
My dad's gone into a similar kind of c'est la vie "embrace the coming doom happily" schtick. I think it's impending mortality, recent retirement, and a mistaken belief that all these congressmen know exactly what they're doing because they're all smart people. No idea why he thinks that. He was never a Trump supporter, but he's had this infuriating "Well, what are you going to do about it? Protesting just inconveniences people. He's doing what he said he'd do. Now we all need to live with it. He's not divesting his stuff? Well, his businesses are complicated and that could take years. I don't know what people expected. And we're in Oregon. Our senators are doing the right thing. People shouldn't be wasting their time and causing problems here." Almost every dinner with him recently has resulted in less than pleasant car rides home from the collective pent up angryness. I'm not sure how my mom's able to stand it since she's much more engaged on social media and politics. I think she's still clinging to the hope that Trump is going to be quickly impeached and it'll just be horrible business as usual with Pence within a month.
And they left for Cuba last Thursday, with no internet connection available or phone. Soooo... they may have an interesting time getting back next weekend.
Shouting and screaming at those who voted for Trump is immaterial at this point. Rightly or wrongly, mostly wrongly, we're all in the same boat now. Many people wanted to throw a brick through the establishment in an effort to be "heard". Well, now they've been heard, and the answer is terrifying.
I would point out to everyone this is an abnormal Presidency, and the uniqueness of the situation. We're in unchartered territory here. Do NOT let people off the hook with the idea that this is "normal" behavior. This is erratic, and America could very easily find itself isolated and the damage is already ongoing.
On the positive side, I will say that despite this election proving that many of our institutions are broken, we are still seeing an out pouring of resistance of the "non-blowing people up" kind, and as long as we don't let politicians off the hook, there's a good chance of a counter-movement emerging fairly rapidly. Especially in this digitized era.
And though it might not seem like much, try to talk to people who did vote for Trump. Point out it was a mistake, but also try to find common ground in that Trump cannot deliver what he promised. The people wanted a golden calf to worship to fix all their problems, now it's time to realize it's not going to give them anything but something stupid to look at.
manwiththemachinegun on
+5
Mx. QuillI now prefer "Myr. Quill", actually...{They/Them}Registered Userregular
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
re: having a plan to get out, one thing getting overlooked is that a ban on certain people coming in is not far from a ban on certain people leaving. And once you hit that point, plans to get out get a lot harder to execute. A lot of Jews wondered "Is this when we should leave?" and then one day they couldn't leave anymore.
WHAT checks and balances? This situation was not foreseen by the founders, the constitution HAS no balance for a rogue president with a spineless congres and senate, and what few (chiefly judicial) checks exist are being denounced and ignored.
I think @Arctangent is right - they're old, they don't want to fight, they're looking for excuses not to. The infuriating thing is, that it protests and brave judges and patriotic politicians manage to turn the tide, instead of acknowledging it was the efforts they dismissed that got things done, they'll say "I told you so - things weren't that bad."
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
Considering Trump and his lack of eye for detail the calf would only be burnished bronze anyway, I anecdoted in a previous thread about how he maybe isn't sure what gold really looks like.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
If this is true, then Bannon isn't the political mastermind that people make him out to be. National Guard don't have special abilities beyond normal riot police. And using them would be a clear signal that Trump is everything his critics say he is.
Bannon isn't a mastermind; he's totally smart enough to rile up a certain base, but he doesn't have any experience actually, you know, running a country. Hence why he's fumbling the ball. Rather than taking his time with the EO, and making sure it would hold up in court, couching the langauge better, not including any super easy WTF! stuff (like the whole green card thing), and that the agencies in question were prepared to enforce it.
So what I'm seeing is about 40% of our armed forces and policing bodies, plus 98%-ish of our ruling political party, and also 40% of the American people are super DTF and kick off an incredibly stupid and pointless global war in the name of angry white redneck supply-side Jesus.
Am I getting this right?
I think it's roughly 26~ percent of the American public. Probably less than that in practice, because a significant chunk of that 26% are too elderly & infirmed to really do much except swear at the T.V. and/or the nursing home staff.
You can probably shave off a few more percents from that as well. What you're shaving off are the ones that are quickly proven to be insane and will go through bouts of insanity that these assholes agree to bouts of insanity that leave every going "what . . . .?" Then you have the percent, where they are fucking idiots, aka you start pressing them on these things and it quickly becomes no idea of how anything works, let along being consistent on what they believe.
I doubt these dickheads start world war 3, nor do I think they'll succeed in turning the US into a dictatorship. They don't have the numbers and it's becoming apparent that many of them really don't grasp how things work. Doesn't matter how much planning one puts in or how smart one is. If you don't have enough support and any fucking clue how things work, you're going to fail.
Very good points, but I just don't think his views about Trump's appeal to US voters is true though. While the content of his ideas and the means by which he exercises his power might be comparable to foreign populists, the narrative of his electoral success is really only understood in the framework of past US elections. It's a myth that Trump won on his appeal to the poor. He got more poor voters than Romney, but he still lost the poor to Hillary. The divisions he won on are based on race, education, and religion. The same divisions every politician in the US tries to exploit.
And Chavez could leverage the revenue from his nationalization of the oil industry to give his supporters the illusion that things were improving. The standards Trump set for himself are much higher and more ridiculous. The things he promised to achieve are either impossible or will have no actual impact on the welfare of his supporters.
For me (another Oregonian, and Gen-X), it's a mix of hope and resignation. Hope that things don't get completely terrible, especially here; resignation that if they do, I am just not equipped - financially, emotionally, physically, etc etc - to survive a civil war or as a refugee, any more than I could (or would want to) live through a nuclear war and the aftermath.
So in order to remain functional at all, I keep going through the motions, doing what I can, and hoping the Union does not perish. Because if it does, so do I. Simple as that.
Honestly, I'm just tired of the 'polarization' argument. What polarization where? The only people citing that garbage are old white assholes that are perpetually on the fence about how right or wrong the white supremacists are - the same folks who endlessly bitch about 'liberal arrogance' and never utter even a single whisper in defiance of the racist pieces of shit on the right. Because those are their pieces of shit, see.
Dedicated die hard right wingers that want to go full Churchill can come visit anytime. Anyone else in that camp that wants to wring their hands and talk about how 'polarizing' everything is can kiss my ass and go take their kids picnicking with the fucking Nazis, because no, appeasement is not the right tool for this job. Never has been and never will be.
There are a few reasons that Chavez isn't comparable to Trump, and the biggest one is that Chavez actually did have a popular mandate. He won three elections by landslides. Trump squeaked out an electoral victory despite a popular vote loss in an election with overt voter suppression. The majority of the United States do not support him, nor does the majority support his policies.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
re: having a plan to get out, one thing getting overlooked is that a ban on certain people coming in is not far from a ban on certain people leaving. And once you hit that point, plans to get out get a lot harder to execute. A lot of Jews wondered "Is this when we should leave?" and then one day they couldn't leave anymore.
Most people who talk about having a plan aren't meaning peruse job boards in Canada. They mean figure out how to smuggle yourself to Canada/wherever. It is a pretty easy border to cross, and while that might change in time there are still a lot of ways to Harriet Tubman yourself.
Considering Trump and his lack of eye for detail the calf would only be burnished bronze anyway, I anecdoted in a previous thread about how he maybe isn't sure what gold really looks like.
The incredibly aggravating thing about that particular bit of scripture, the people of God got fed up with being led to the Promised Land. They had seen the miracles, enjoyed the prosperity, escaped the slavery, and were not terribly far from their destination. Then, Moses leaves for a few weeks to chat with God, and people decide out of fear, "Well, I'm not getting mine! Idol time!" And Moses came back and said, "You all are the biggest jackasses I've ever seen, and I can't believe I'm going to save most of you, and in sheer frustration never be able to end that Land myself."
Some people are trying to paint Bannon as a genius supervillain.
He's not. Evil, sure. And he's smart, in a like, sleazy investment banker kind of way (which is what he was at one point, please remember).
But he's not a genius, he's not a mastermind. He's a hate-filled little shitbag who realized he could attach himself to malignant narcissists like Trump and gain power. He's not Saruman or Tywin Lannister, he's Goering or Goebbels.
That doesn't mean he should be discounted or ignored or considered non-threatening. But he shouldn't be elevated to some vaunted status as a fearsome nemesis.
He's a gross little man trying to hurt people who needs to be stopped. Nothing more, nothing less.
I also have a strong visceral reaction to that Venezuela article because the author refers to the Hamilton statement as "polarizing."
This is the text of the Hamilton statement:
"You know, we have a guest in the audience this evening. Vice President-elect Pence, I see you walking out but I hope you hear just a few more moments. There's nothing to boo, ladies and gentlemen. There's nothing to boo. We're all here sharing a story of love. We have a message for you, sir, we hope that you will hear us out."
"And I encourage everybody to pull out your phones and tweet and post because this message needs to be spread far and wide. Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton: An American Musical. We really do."
"We, sir, are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us: our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us."
If that's an example of a statement that is too polarizing, too extreme, too contemptuous, then there is literally nothing we can say in opposition that isn't polarizing. We might as well just lay down and think of England America while the Nazis bugger us.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I work with activists, devout muslims, Iranians, and somalians. I wish I had chosen a profession that would allow me to help empower them at all.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
WHAT checks and balances? This situation was not foreseen by the founders, the constitution HAS no balance for a rogue president with a spineless congres and senate, and what few (chiefly judicial) checks exist are being denounced and ignored.
I think Arctangent is right - they're old, they don't want to fight, they're looking for excuses not to. The infuriating thing is, that it protests and brave judges and patriotic politicians manage to turn the tide, instead of acknowledging it was the efforts they dismissed that got things done, they'll say "I told you so - things weren't that bad."
The check against someone like Trump was the Electoral College. It failed, and now here we are in uncharted territory.
Some people are trying to paint Bannon as a genius supervillain.
He's not. Evil, sure. And he's smart, in a like, sleazy investment banker kind of way (which is what he was at one point, please remember).
But he's not a genius, he's not a mastermind. He's a hate-filled little shitbag who realized he could attach himself to malignant narcissists like Trump and gain power. He's not Saruman or Tywin Lannister, he's Goering or Goebbels.
That doesn't mean he should be discounted or ignored or considered non-threatening. But he shouldn't be elevated to some vaunted status as a fearsome nemesis.
He's a gross little man trying to hurt people who needs to be stopped. Nothing more, nothing less.
Karl Rove refusing to acknowledge Ohio kind of helped show how much the impression of genius is just a cloak from things working out your way. I mean, having the Director of the FBI ratfuck your opponent a week and a half before the election is luck as much as anything. But victory has a million fathers while failure remains an orphan.
So what I'm seeing is about 40% of our armed forces and policing bodies, plus 98%-ish of our ruling political party, and also 40% of the American people are super DTF and kick off an incredibly stupid and pointless global war in the name of angry white redneck supply-side Jesus.
Am I getting this right?
I think it's roughly 26~ percent of the American public. Probably less than that in practice, because a significant chunk of that 26% are too elderly & infirmed to really do much except swear at the T.V. and/or the nursing home staff.
Another chunk don't really care or believe Trump's horseshit, they just want their jobs back from Mexicans.
+3
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
I also have a strong visceral reaction to that Venezuela article because the author refers to the Hamilton statement as "polarizing."
This is the text of the Hamilton statement:
"You know, we have a guest in the audience this evening. Vice President-elect Pence, I see you walking out but I hope you hear just a few more moments. There's nothing to boo, ladies and gentlemen. There's nothing to boo. We're all here sharing a story of love. We have a message for you, sir, we hope that you will hear us out."
"And I encourage everybody to pull out your phones and tweet and post because this message needs to be spread far and wide. Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton: An American Musical. We really do."
"We, sir, are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us: our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us."
If that's an example of a statement that is too polarizing, too extreme, too contemptuous, then there is literally nothing we can say in opposition that isn't polarizing. We might as well just lay down and think of England America while the Nazis bugger us.
Because if the music keeps going, yes — you will see neighbors deported and friends of different creeds and sexual orientations living in fear and anxiety, your country’s economic inequality deepening along the way. But something worse could happen. In Venezuela, whole generations were split in two. A sense of shared culture was wiped out. Rhetoric took over our history books, our future, our own sense of self. We lost the freedom to be anything larger than cartoons.
This is the line where I went from "hmm, this is kind of interesting I guess" to "fuck that shit" in a hurry. Any argument that rhetoric or polarization is worse than actual, really fucking happening discrimination and injustice is an argument that I have absolutely no time for.
Some people are trying to paint Bannon as a genius supervillain.
He's not. Evil, sure. And he's smart, in a like, sleazy investment banker kind of way (which is what he was at one point, please remember).
But he's not a genius, he's not a mastermind. He's a hate-filled little shitbag who realized he could attach himself to malignant narcissists like Trump and gain power. He's not Saruman or Tywin Lannister, he's Goering or Goebbels.
That doesn't mean he should be discounted or ignored or considered non-threatening. But he shouldn't be elevated to some vaunted status as a fearsome nemesis.
He's a gross little man trying to hurt people who needs to be stopped. Nothing more, nothing less.
He's Trump's Rove. There was plenty of talk about Karl being an unbeatable polticial mastermind ushering in a permanent republican majority, when really he was also just a hateful shit who knew the right butons to push at the right time and took advantage of it.
I also have a strong visceral reaction to that Venezuela article because the author refers to the Hamilton statement as "polarizing."
This is the text of the Hamilton statement:
"You know, we have a guest in the audience this evening. Vice President-elect Pence, I see you walking out but I hope you hear just a few more moments. There's nothing to boo, ladies and gentlemen. There's nothing to boo. We're all here sharing a story of love. We have a message for you, sir, we hope that you will hear us out."
"And I encourage everybody to pull out your phones and tweet and post because this message needs to be spread far and wide. Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton: An American Musical. We really do."
"We, sir, are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us: our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us."
If that's an example of a statement that is too polarizing, too extreme, too contemptuous, then there is literally nothing we can say in opposition that isn't polarizing. We might as well just lay down and think of England America while the Nazis bugger us.
Because if the music keeps going, yes — you will see neighbors deported and friends of different creeds and sexual orientations living in fear and anxiety, your country’s economic inequality deepening along the way. But something worse could happen. In Venezuela, whole generations were split in two. A sense of shared culture was wiped out. Rhetoric took over our history books, our future, our own sense of self. We lost the freedom to be anything larger than cartoons.
This is the line where I went from "hmm, this is kind of interesting I guess" to "fuck that shit" in a hurry. Any argument that rhetoric or polarization is worse than actual, really fucking happening discrimination and injustice is an argument that I have absolutely no time for.
I think people have to go different paths. Some need to act now, some need to make plans.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Some people are trying to paint Bannon as a genius supervillain.
He's not. Evil, sure. And he's smart, in a like, sleazy investment banker kind of way (which is what he was at one point, please remember).
But he's not a genius, he's not a mastermind. He's a hate-filled little shitbag who realized he could attach himself to malignant narcissists like Trump and gain power. He's not Saruman or Tywin Lannister, he's Goering or Goebbels.
That doesn't mean he should be discounted or ignored or considered non-threatening. But he shouldn't be elevated to some vaunted status as a fearsome nemesis.
He's a gross little man trying to hurt people who needs to be stopped. Nothing more, nothing less.
He's Trump's Rove. There was plenty of talk about Karl being an unbeatable polticial mastermind ushering in a permanent republican majority, when really he was also just a hateful shit who knew the right butons to push at the right time and took advantage of it.
Still dangerous as fuck in the wrong spot though
Yeah. If Rove was five percent as powerful or as competent as people on the left were spinning him as, we'd still be under President Bush.
I think the value in that article is in understanding the need to humanize ourselves to our opposition. Yes, that is not going to be easy. No, it is not appeasement.
Authority is earned. Every time. Just because you have a degree and a suit, or other accessories of status, does not mean that you know your ass from your elbows in a rural area. This goes for organizations, like news, as well.
Being smart about opposition is also a good point.
All that said, yes, there are some ways that the situation in the US is different than Venezuela. But, the turning of progressives in this country from compatriots to enemies has been a decades long process, and it will not go away if Trump is impeached.
The one thing that gives me hope, however slight, is Trump's greed. Things like this ban and potential rampant discrimination against other minority groups are bad for business. And, at the very least, it seems like tech industry CEOs are trying to take a stand. I'm hoping that the businessman part of Trump (not that it's a skillful or savvy part of him) overrides the part of him that's flailing at the Presidency. Because we'd be in a much better place with him in corporate gladhand mode than half-assed over-authority mode.
I also have a strong visceral reaction to that Venezuela article because the author refers to the Hamilton statement as "polarizing."
This is the text of the Hamilton statement:
"You know, we have a guest in the audience this evening. Vice President-elect Pence, I see you walking out but I hope you hear just a few more moments. There's nothing to boo, ladies and gentlemen. There's nothing to boo. We're all here sharing a story of love. We have a message for you, sir, we hope that you will hear us out."
"And I encourage everybody to pull out your phones and tweet and post because this message needs to be spread far and wide. Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton: An American Musical. We really do."
"We, sir, are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us: our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us."
If that's an example of a statement that is too polarizing, too extreme, too contemptuous, then there is literally nothing we can say in opposition that isn't polarizing. We might as well just lay down and think of England America while the Nazis bugger us.
Because if the music keeps going, yes — you will see neighbors deported and friends of different creeds and sexual orientations living in fear and anxiety, your country’s economic inequality deepening along the way. But something worse could happen. In Venezuela, whole generations were split in two. A sense of shared culture was wiped out. Rhetoric took over our history books, our future, our own sense of self. We lost the freedom to be anything larger than cartoons.
This is the line where I went from "hmm, this is kind of interesting I guess" to "fuck that shit" in a hurry. Any argument that rhetoric or polarization is worse than actual, really fucking happening discrimination and injustice is an argument that I have absolutely no time for.
Knowing that there are people who will gladly string you up into a tree and chortle at your death has a way of being polarizing, yes.
Posts
The problem is historical precedent. Now granted, we don't know how bad this could get, but generally, violent revolt against executive power does not result in the most stable of times.
We called my father today to have our weekly chat while mom is here livng with us. We didn't talk last week because we were on holiday. So it's been just over a week since the new administration is in place and we've all seen what is happening.
My family is Jewish and I am, to say the least, concerned. I might be being hyperbolic about a few things, but I'm concerned. Especially with Bannon... Anyways, I asked my father seriously whether he had a plan or not to get out of the country. He laughed at me and jokingly said that so long as Canada doesn't put up a wall, he'd go through via Buffalo/Niagara. All while laughing at the mere notion of needing to get out.
He reminded me that there's not much that we can do, that there are checks and balances in place in the system and we just need to wait until 2018 to see how the country reacts to Trump and whether they vote back in the Republicans to Congress or not as to whether to panic. He asked me to put my faith in Susan Fucking Collins (R-ME) to be the stalward defender of the Republic. He ignored my dismay at this, my evidence that Susan Fucking Collins hasn't done a goddamned thing in the last 8 years to defend the Republic from anything and has voted along with her fellow republicans every fucking single step. "But maybe this time she'll realize that things are going too far and she'll say something. Trust in the system" ARGH No. No I cannot trust in the system, I cannot trust Susan Fucking Collins to be the defender of America. She has no backbone.
My father then went on to say that John Lewis needs to be out in front and making his voice heard in protests against things because "This is what we fought for". And he wouldn't understand that John Lewis is doing just that, but he's not the voice and the face that we need right now. We then argued over whether Bernie Sanders is the voice of the Democratic Party at the moment (He says that Sanders is, I vehemently disagree). I tried to point out that only one Democrat Senator has actually stood up to Trumps cabinet picks (Kirsten Gillibrand D-NY) and was told that it didn't matter because she's too young and has no experience and so isn't in running for the Presidency at all. Ignoring the fact that Father said the exact, same, fucking thing about Obama and see how well THAT turned out. My father is convinced that Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and maybe Amy Klobuchar are the next leaders and they should have voices. He doesn't pay attention to the fact that Warren doesn't want to be President, that Sanders is of the "we should wait and see what Trump does" crowd, and I'm ok with agreeing about Klobuchar for the moment.
And of course the Senators are approving the cabinet picks, it's what's accepted. The President is allowed to have a Cabinet of those he chooses to advise him. Father did not agree that this should only be acceptable for qualified candidates and not people who want to destroy the world, or at the very least the Department that they're the Head of. Trying to explain to my father that Trump is literally putting Nazis in charge of the government and we should be fighting this tooth and nail, I get told to be patient, there are checks and balances in place and everything will be ok.
But then, in the same fucking breath, he tells me about how he's upset with the Travel Ban and that he tells people that all they have to do si replace the worlds "muslim" with "jew" and it's the 1930s again. And I just. But. HOW CAN YOU ADMIT THAT AND NOT SEE THE NEED TO MAYBE HAVE A PLAN OF ESCAPE!?!?!
How can he admit that there are Nazis being put in charge, actual literal fucking Nazis and not the 'haha' funny Blues Brothers type of Nazis, but actual goddamend white supremacist Nazis and then laugh at me for voicing concern for him and his safety.
Just.
ARGH.
And his words to me when I get exasperated? "It's only been a week. Have some patience". ARGHGHGHG
Otto Frank thought the same thing. Do you not remember through the years and years of Holocaust Rememberance Education that you gave me that a good majority of Jews also said "But we're German citizens! Let's give the Fuhrer some time, it's not that serious, oh shit I"m dead now"
ARGLEBARGLESPLAT!
End rant. Thank you.
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As deplorable as he is, he's infinitely preferable to reality.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
I think it was a professor who predicted it exactly like that, yeah
Specifically he said his company, which did home foreclosures, did not "robo-sign," which is to have an employee sign off on hundreds of foreclosures in a short period of time without reviewing the documents for accuracy. Leading to things like a woman who had to spend five years fighting when Mnuchin's company robo-signed a foreclosure on her home asserting it was vacant and past due, when she was living there and up to date on payments. Not only did he lie but there's blatant evidence of the falsehood, including employees testifying under oath that they robo-signed shit and a judge throwing Mnuchin's appeals out of court because they robo-signed shit.
Also important: the rules against robo-signing are part of Dodd Frank, regulatory legislation Mnuchin wants to gut.
I saved you a click but you should click anyway to support this paper, and also because I barely scraped the surface of the awful this guy is responsible for.
I read the article and I'm not going to empty my bowels just yet. There is hope and advice in there. Really speaks to what we need to be doing as we organize. Solve people's problems and point out the administration's inability to help them. We need to meet them on the street and talk and be human beings. They are victims and not the enemy. We must avoid becoming a faceless enemy. We must avoid being labeled as "illegals" and "liberals". This has to happen at the ground level. You can do this at work without being political. Don't argue with your inner circle about politics. you must remain strong and be willing to listen. I think you must also not get into the trap of disproving people's arguments. That's not the way. Listen to what they want, and think of ways to help them get it.
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It's easy really. The mind starts reading it and fills in the blanks. I did the same thing too.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
My dad's gone into a similar kind of c'est la vie "embrace the coming doom happily" schtick. I think it's impending mortality, recent retirement, and a mistaken belief that all these congressmen know exactly what they're doing because they're all smart people. No idea why he thinks that. He was never a Trump supporter, but he's had this infuriating "Well, what are you going to do about it? Protesting just inconveniences people. He's doing what he said he'd do. Now we all need to live with it. He's not divesting his stuff? Well, his businesses are complicated and that could take years. I don't know what people expected. And we're in Oregon. Our senators are doing the right thing. People shouldn't be wasting their time and causing problems here." Almost every dinner with him recently has resulted in less than pleasant car rides home from the collective pent up angryness. I'm not sure how my mom's able to stand it since she's much more engaged on social media and politics. I think she's still clinging to the hope that Trump is going to be quickly impeached and it'll just be horrible business as usual with Pence within a month.
And they left for Cuba last Thursday, with no internet connection available or phone. Soooo... they may have an interesting time getting back next weekend.
It's a lot of shitting in my cheerios and saying it's up to me to eat it, but whatever. If they're not gonna...
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
I would point out to everyone this is an abnormal Presidency, and the uniqueness of the situation. We're in unchartered territory here. Do NOT let people off the hook with the idea that this is "normal" behavior. This is erratic, and America could very easily find itself isolated and the damage is already ongoing.
On the positive side, I will say that despite this election proving that many of our institutions are broken, we are still seeing an out pouring of resistance of the "non-blowing people up" kind, and as long as we don't let politicians off the hook, there's a good chance of a counter-movement emerging fairly rapidly. Especially in this digitized era.
And though it might not seem like much, try to talk to people who did vote for Trump. Point out it was a mistake, but also try to find common ground in that Trump cannot deliver what he promised. The people wanted a golden calf to worship to fix all their problems, now it's time to realize it's not going to give them anything but something stupid to look at.
Rock on, cast of Stranger Things!
I think @Arctangent is right - they're old, they don't want to fight, they're looking for excuses not to. The infuriating thing is, that it protests and brave judges and patriotic politicians manage to turn the tide, instead of acknowledging it was the efforts they dismissed that got things done, they'll say "I told you so - things weren't that bad."
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Bannon isn't a mastermind; he's totally smart enough to rile up a certain base, but he doesn't have any experience actually, you know, running a country. Hence why he's fumbling the ball. Rather than taking his time with the EO, and making sure it would hold up in court, couching the langauge better, not including any super easy WTF! stuff (like the whole green card thing), and that the agencies in question were prepared to enforce it.
You can probably shave off a few more percents from that as well. What you're shaving off are the ones that are quickly proven to be insane and will go through bouts of insanity that these assholes agree to bouts of insanity that leave every going "what . . . .?" Then you have the percent, where they are fucking idiots, aka you start pressing them on these things and it quickly becomes no idea of how anything works, let along being consistent on what they believe.
I doubt these dickheads start world war 3, nor do I think they'll succeed in turning the US into a dictatorship. They don't have the numbers and it's becoming apparent that many of them really don't grasp how things work. Doesn't matter how much planning one puts in or how smart one is. If you don't have enough support and any fucking clue how things work, you're going to fail.
Very good points, but I just don't think his views about Trump's appeal to US voters is true though. While the content of his ideas and the means by which he exercises his power might be comparable to foreign populists, the narrative of his electoral success is really only understood in the framework of past US elections. It's a myth that Trump won on his appeal to the poor. He got more poor voters than Romney, but he still lost the poor to Hillary. The divisions he won on are based on race, education, and religion. The same divisions every politician in the US tries to exploit.
And Chavez could leverage the revenue from his nationalization of the oil industry to give his supporters the illusion that things were improving. The standards Trump set for himself are much higher and more ridiculous. The things he promised to achieve are either impossible or will have no actual impact on the welfare of his supporters.
So in order to remain functional at all, I keep going through the motions, doing what I can, and hoping the Union does not perish. Because if it does, so do I. Simple as that.
There are a few reasons that Chavez isn't comparable to Trump, and the biggest one is that Chavez actually did have a popular mandate. He won three elections by landslides. Trump squeaked out an electoral victory despite a popular vote loss in an election with overt voter suppression. The majority of the United States do not support him, nor does the majority support his policies.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Most people who talk about having a plan aren't meaning peruse job boards in Canada. They mean figure out how to smuggle yourself to Canada/wherever. It is a pretty easy border to cross, and while that might change in time there are still a lot of ways to Harriet Tubman yourself.
The incredibly aggravating thing about that particular bit of scripture, the people of God got fed up with being led to the Promised Land. They had seen the miracles, enjoyed the prosperity, escaped the slavery, and were not terribly far from their destination. Then, Moses leaves for a few weeks to chat with God, and people decide out of fear, "Well, I'm not getting mine! Idol time!" And Moses came back and said, "You all are the biggest jackasses I've ever seen, and I can't believe I'm going to save most of you, and in sheer frustration never be able to end that Land myself."
I always did like Moses.
He's not. Evil, sure. And he's smart, in a like, sleazy investment banker kind of way (which is what he was at one point, please remember).
But he's not a genius, he's not a mastermind. He's a hate-filled little shitbag who realized he could attach himself to malignant narcissists like Trump and gain power. He's not Saruman or Tywin Lannister, he's Goering or Goebbels.
That doesn't mean he should be discounted or ignored or considered non-threatening. But he shouldn't be elevated to some vaunted status as a fearsome nemesis.
He's a gross little man trying to hurt people who needs to be stopped. Nothing more, nothing less.
This is the text of the Hamilton statement:
If that's an example of a statement that is too polarizing, too extreme, too contemptuous, then there is literally nothing we can say in opposition that isn't polarizing. We might as well just lay down and think of England America while the Nazis bugger us.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The check against someone like Trump was the Electoral College. It failed, and now here we are in uncharted territory.
Karl Rove refusing to acknowledge Ohio kind of helped show how much the impression of genius is just a cloak from things working out your way. I mean, having the Director of the FBI ratfuck your opponent a week and a half before the election is luck as much as anything. But victory has a million fathers while failure remains an orphan.
There needs to be a slow clap emote for things like this.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
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Another chunk don't really care or believe Trump's horseshit, they just want their jobs back from Mexicans.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
This is the line where I went from "hmm, this is kind of interesting I guess" to "fuck that shit" in a hurry. Any argument that rhetoric or polarization is worse than actual, really fucking happening discrimination and injustice is an argument that I have absolutely no time for.
He's Trump's Rove. There was plenty of talk about Karl being an unbeatable polticial mastermind ushering in a permanent republican majority, when really he was also just a hateful shit who knew the right butons to push at the right time and took advantage of it.
Still dangerous as fuck in the wrong spot though
I think people have to go different paths. Some need to act now, some need to make plans.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah. If Rove was five percent as powerful or as competent as people on the left were spinning him as, we'd still be under President Bush.
Authority is earned. Every time. Just because you have a degree and a suit, or other accessories of status, does not mean that you know your ass from your elbows in a rural area. This goes for organizations, like news, as well.
Being smart about opposition is also a good point.
All that said, yes, there are some ways that the situation in the US is different than Venezuela. But, the turning of progressives in this country from compatriots to enemies has been a decades long process, and it will not go away if Trump is impeached.
Knowing that there are people who will gladly string you up into a tree and chortle at your death has a way of being polarizing, yes.