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The [Muslim Ban] and other Trump immigration policies and actions

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Posts

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The part about this that always galls me whenever people decide to have a hard stance on the middle east/muslims/terrorism/other is that it fails to grasp the nature of the enemy with which you are fightting.

    ISIS, the Taliban, AQ and whoever else aren't nations so much as they are a malignant ideology so trying to deal with them as the former is at best a sub-optimal strategy for combating them and at worst directly feeds into their own meta-plot; that the west hates islam and the peoples of the middle east and that they need to collectively take a stand against them.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The part about this that always galls me whenever people decide to have a hard stance on the middle east/muslims/terrorism/other is that it fails to grasp the nature of the enemy with which you are fightting.

    ISIS, the Taliban, AQ and whoever else aren't nations so much as they are a malignant ideology so trying to deal with them as the former is at best a sub-optimal strategy for combating them and at worst directly feeds into their own meta-plot; that the west hates islam and the peoples of the middle east and that they need to collectively take a stand against them.

    It depends on your goal, though.


    If your goal is to drive away all Muslims, reaffirm beliefs that the west is Christian first and everything else second (at best), and keep a casus belli in your pocket because you believe that war & military mobilization is the cornerstone of civilization, then it makes perfect sense and is a good strategy to treat terrorist organizations the way that American conservative forces do.

    Not today, motherfucker
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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The part about this that always galls me whenever people decide to have a hard stance on the middle east/muslims/terrorism/other is that it fails to grasp the nature of the enemy with which you are fightting.

    ISIS, the Taliban, AQ and whoever else aren't nations so much as they are a malignant ideology so trying to deal with them as the former is at best a sub-optimal strategy for combating them and at worst directly feeds into their own meta-plot; that the west hates islam and the peoples of the middle east and that they need to collectively take a stand against them.

    It depends on your goal, though.


    If your goal is to drive away all Muslims, reaffirm beliefs that the west is Christian first and everything else second (at best), and keep a casus belli in your pocket because you believe that war & military mobilization is the cornerstone of civilization, then it makes perfect sense and is a good strategy to treat terrorist organizations the way that American conservative forces do.

    The thing is, while americans may love war they despise the idea of losing.

    And their is no way to win a war with an ideology.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The part about this that always galls me whenever people decide to have a hard stance on the middle east/muslims/terrorism/other is that it fails to grasp the nature of the enemy with which you are fightting.

    ISIS, the Taliban, AQ and whoever else aren't nations so much as they are a malignant ideology so trying to deal with them as the former is at best a sub-optimal strategy for combating them and at worst directly feeds into their own meta-plot; that the west hates islam and the peoples of the middle east and that they need to collectively take a stand against them.

    It depends on your goal, though.


    If your goal is to drive away all Muslims, reaffirm beliefs that the west is Christian first and everything else second (at best), and keep a casus belli in your pocket because you believe that war & military mobilization is the cornerstone of civilization, then it makes perfect sense and is a good strategy to treat terrorist organizations the way that American conservative forces do.

    The thing is, while americans may love war they despise the idea of losing.

    And their is no way to win a war with an ideology.

    The Superman route was pretty effective against the KKK, but that requires some finesse and creativity.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    Gaddez
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    The part about this that always galls me whenever people decide to have a hard stance on the middle east/muslims/terrorism/other is that it fails to grasp the nature of the enemy with which you are fightting.

    ISIS, the Taliban, AQ and whoever else aren't nations so much as they are a malignant ideology so trying to deal with them as the former is at best a sub-optimal strategy for combating them and at worst directly feeds into their own meta-plot; that the west hates islam and the peoples of the middle east and that they need to collectively take a stand against them.

    It depends on your goal, though.


    If your goal is to drive away all Muslims, reaffirm beliefs that the west is Christian first and everything else second (at best), and keep a casus belli in your pocket because you believe that war & military mobilization is the cornerstone of civilization, then it makes perfect sense and is a good strategy to treat terrorist organizations the way that American conservative forces do.

    The thing is, while americans may love war they despise the idea of losing.

    And their is no way to win a war with an ideology.

    The Superman route was pretty effective against the KKK, but that requires some finesse and creativity.

    It was also dirt cheap as a solution to the problem; the Radio program couldn't have possibly cost more then a federal investigation into individual chapters of the Klan.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    @Hakkekage

    Who the fuck do I give money to?

    @Quid

    CAIR, NIAC, ACLU

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  • MrMisterMrMister If you shoot an arrow, and it goes real high--hooray for youRegistered User regular
    Our Revolution has a couple ways to get involved--a list of sanctuary cities alongside the numbers for their mayors (so you can call to voice your support) and, if you're CA-based, a petition in support of SB 54, a bill that would reduce California state law enforcement support of federal law enforcement in carrying out deportations. As far as I can ascertain the point is basically to prevent Cali police from determining people's immigration status, and, if they do happen to determine it, to prevent them from reporting it to the feds. Seems good to me. If we're going to suffer under a federalist system, we should at least insist on the independent sovereign authority of the states in those situations where it might actually do a good thing.

    RingothatassemblyguyKaputaHakkekageEdith Upwards
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie This is NOT normalRegistered User regular
    Another number added to my Monday morning call list at the suggestion of a very smart friend of mine. Dublin Airport, to ask if anyone is stranded there and if anyone is helping them.

    Ringothatassemblyguy
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    @Hakkekage

    Who the fuck do I give money to?

    @Quid

    CAIR, NIAC, ACLU

    20 a month going to the ACLU.

    Essentially a communist now.

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  • HandgimpHandgimp STEVE BANNON IS OFF THE NSC THANK FUCKING CHRISTRegistered User regular
    Livestream of JFK Protest via Buzzfeed/Facebook.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    American Muslims, immigrants and U.S.-born alike, are part of the fabric of this nation and part of what makes America great. As U.S. businesses, investors, and universities have pointed out, American Muslims are our neighbors, friends, and colleagues. They are us. Trump’s ban separates American families and deprives our country of the contributions that these newcomers, and their children and grandchildren, will make as Americans. —Cecilia Wang, ACLU
    In effect, Trump has barred Muslims from entering the United States, while favoring the entry of Christians.

    One of the tenets upon which our country was founded is that religion is our own business and not the government’s. We have freedom of belief. We do not have religious litmus tests for participation in society. Trump’s order is anathema to those founding principles. It violates the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause, which prohibits the government from preferring or disfavoring any religion. Trump’s anti-Muslim policy also violates the Equal Protection Clause, the part of the Fourteenth Amendment that guarantees that everyone is entitled to equal protection under the law.

    Trump’s orders are immoral as well as unconstitutional. He is barring the entry of modern-day counterparts of the passengers of the St. Louis — children injured in Syria’s terrible and brutal civil war, who are at imminent risk of being killed. And Trump’s order is a slap in the face to the millions of Americans who uphold our best traditions of welcoming the stranger seeking refuge.

    Unsurprisingly, the ACLU is all over this shit.

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    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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  • HandgimpHandgimp STEVE BANNON IS OFF THE NSC THANK FUCKING CHRISTRegistered User regular
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Your sins lay heavy upon you, defiler of souls Registered User regular
    He upped it to 50k after 6 minutes because he was flooded immediately.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus My baby, please show you to me fast. Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    He upped it to 50k after 6 minutes because he was flooded immediately.

    He's up to $75k now.

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  • AthenorAthenor Who needs lions when you have a battlecruiser? Registered User regular
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

    This is why I say to not rely on the rank and file doing a damned thing to resist until you actually see it happen.

    evilthecat wrote: »
    "Bioware I want to suck on your teets of gamingness".

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited January 28
    The dems seem to be woken up by this one at least. There needs to be some serious pushback

    nexuscrawler on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

    They've always wanted this. They are more then happy to go along with it.

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  • AthenorAthenor Who needs lions when you have a battlecruiser? Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

    They've always wanted this. They are more then happy to go along with it.

    I refuse to lump everyone together in a blanket statement. I'm sorry, but if we are going to stop this, we need to realize that there are people of all walks of life, and I refuse to believe the majority support this.

    Of course, risking yourself and your family to go against your superior's orders is not something many, or most, are willing to do.

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  • HandgimpHandgimp STEVE BANNON IS OFF THE NSC THANK FUCKING CHRISTRegistered User regular
    Question for the lawyers in the room: if Trump lets all the people stuck in airports on US soil in but continues to deny entry to everyone else, what happens?

    Those let in have no standing, right? And there's nobody left, so no class status? So legal end run?

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    edited January 28
    One of the difficulties of challenging this travel ban is that afaik the supreme court recognizes the president as having sweeping authority over immigration policy, even when it contradicts treaties and domestic laws, because it's seen as part of his purview under national defense. This goes all the way back to the 1880s and bans against Chinese immigration, which were similarly hateful and also not at all based on any real claim to national defense. But it's been one of those areas (much like the Japanese internment) where the law still says it's OK, it's just been political and social norms which have pushed the executive branch away from (until now) ever doing anything like it.

    Ugh. ugh ugh ugh.

    Kana on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

    They've always wanted this. They are more then happy to go along with it.

    I refuse to lump everyone together in a blanket statement. I'm sorry, but if we are going to stop this, we need to realize that there are people of all walks of life, and I refuse to believe the majority support this.

    Of course, risking yourself and your family to go against your superior's orders is not something many, or most, are willing to do.

    You can refuse to all you want, but that's just ignoring reality. A huge portion of the GOP base supports a Muslim Ban. American law enforcement and similar agencies are rife with authoritarians who support this kind of shit. Read up on the things about ICE being happy about this shit.

    A huge portion of the public and the people who enforce the various laws have been wanting to get their jackboots laced up for ages now.

    Wraith260TetraRayKamarCantidetynicthatassemblyguyMrVyngaardHermanoNightDragonHakkekageLoisLanemrondeauLabelEdith UpwardsArdolHarry DresdenToxElldrenMan in the MistsHacksawTofystedethSquigie
  • AthenorAthenor Who needs lions when you have a battlecruiser? Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

    They've always wanted this. They are more then happy to go along with it.

    I refuse to lump everyone together in a blanket statement. I'm sorry, but if we are going to stop this, we need to realize that there are people of all walks of life, and I refuse to believe the majority support this.

    Of course, risking yourself and your family to go against your superior's orders is not something many, or most, are willing to do.

    You can refuse to all you want, but that's just ignoring reality. A huge portion of the GOP base supports a Muslim Ban. American law enforcement and similar agencies are rife with authoritarians who support this kind of shit. Read up on the things about ICE being happy about this shit.

    A huge portion of the public and the people who enforce the various laws have been wanting to get their jackboots laced up for ages now.

    Yeah.. It just.. blows my mind how easy and comfortably people fall into this, even when they aren't the majority.

    iLaXVZ7.png
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  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular


    hopefully this goes beyond a tweet and becomes actual policy. all nations should be opening their arms to those displaced and turned away by America.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Couldn't see any protests at the international terminal at LAX this morning, though I wasn't inside.
    I should make a tiny placard out of my boarding pass.

    RMS Oceanicdurandal4532
  • RingoRingo Registered User regular


    I'm new to the PDX area. I believe @So It Goes is here? Anybody else wanna go spend some time protesting at the airport today?

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular


    New York Taxi Workers Alliance and AFT Union joining protest against the Muslim Ban.

    http://pix11.com/2017/01/28/protesters-gather-at-jfk-airports-terminal-4-after-refugees-detained-following-trumps-immigration-ban/
    The handful of protesters quickly grew to more than 100 as people took to social media to spread the word about the demonstration. Organizations including AFT Union and New York Taxi Workers Alliance publicly announced their support for the protest.

    "Our 19,000-member-strong union stands firmly opposed to Donald Trump's Muslim ban. As an organization whose membership is largely Muslim, a workforce that's almost universally immigrant, and a working-class movement that is rooted in the defense of the oppressed, we say no to this inhumane and unconstitutional ban," the NYTWA said in a statement.

    "We stand in solidarity with all protesting at JFK #Terminal4 & airports across the country. We are a country of immigrants, we stand together," AFT union wrote on Twitter.

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited January 28
    al-Jazeera's reporting protests at JFK airport. Protesting at the airports themselves is brilliant.


    edit- I missed the post mentioning this already, my bad

    Kaputa on
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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular


    That's the Rep for Massachusetts' 6th. The Fightin' Sixth.
    As the Statue of Liberty holds her torch of welcome high, there are tears in her eyes as she sees how low this Administration has stooped in its callousness toward mothers and children escaping war-torn Syria. This Administration has mistaken cruelty for strength and prejudice for strategy.

    Democrats seem to be coming out swinging on this one. Schumer had a statement similar to Pelosi's yesterday, right down to the weeping Statue of Liberty imagery.

    It probably helps that literally months ago the guy who is now in the Naval Observatory called this whole thing unconstitutional.



    And Ryan said he'd sue if something like this happened.



    If the Dems can find their spine, this is going to have the Republican party over a barrel.

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    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    Ringo wrote: »


    I'm new to the PDX area. I believe "So It Goes" is here? Anybody else wanna go spend some time protesting at the airport today?

    I'm out of town right now, flying back tomorrow night or else I would go

    RingoHakkekageLoisLane
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    OptimusZed wrote: »


    That's the Rep for Massachusetts' 6th. The Fightin' Sixth.
    As the Statue of Liberty holds her torch of welcome high, there are tears in her eyes as she sees how low this Administration has stooped in its callousness toward mothers and children escaping war-torn Syria. This Administration has mistaken cruelty for strength and prejudice for strategy.

    Democrats seem to be coming out swinging on this one. Schumer had a statement similar to Pelosi's yesterday, right down to the weeping Statue of Liberty imagery.

    It probably helps that literally months ago the guy who is now in the Naval Observatory called this whole thing unconstitutional.



    And Ryan said he'd sue if something like this happened.



    If the Dems can find their spine, this is going to have the Republican party over a barrel.

    I doubt it. I mean, they can stand up to it and it's good to see they already are but the GOP doesn't give a shit if they opposed it 2 days ago. They will claim they didn't and it's different now and support it fully. And it's not like shame or charges of hypocrisy are gonna work here.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »

    I doubt it. I mean, they can stand up to it and it's good to see they already are but the GOP doesn't give a shit if they opposed it 2 days ago. They will claim they didn't and it's different now and support it fully. And it's not like shame or charges of hypocrisy are gonna work here.

    It doesn't matter if the Republicans try and squirm out of it, it's not about them. It's about galvanizing the rest of the country to oppose this thing, and making them own it one way or the other.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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  • FeralFeral That's what I do. I drink, and I know things. Location: ByakkoyaRegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Here's the part I don't get... How are so many going along with this so willingly? Like.. there are a LOT of points of entry to the US. Hell, Peoria, IL is listed as an international airport, and it's in the middle of the state and country.

    To have all these people just flip a switch and go "nope"... I am sure a good chunk of it is just following orders, or being confused or in their bubble.. but.. ugh. This is what bugs me.

    A side effect of stagnating wages is that people who are living paycheck to paycheck are less likely to disobey their bosses.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Your sins lay heavy upon you, defiler of souls Registered User regular
    edited January 28
    shryke wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »


    That's the Rep for Massachusetts' 6th. The Fightin' Sixth.
    As the Statue of Liberty holds her torch of welcome high, there are tears in her eyes as she sees how low this Administration has stooped in its callousness toward mothers and children escaping war-torn Syria. This Administration has mistaken cruelty for strength and prejudice for strategy.

    Democrats seem to be coming out swinging on this one. Schumer had a statement similar to Pelosi's yesterday, right down to the weeping Statue of Liberty imagery.

    It probably helps that literally months ago the guy who is now in the Naval Observatory called this whole thing unconstitutional.



    And Ryan said he'd sue if something like this happened.



    If the Dems can find their spine, this is going to have the Republican party over a barrel.

    I doubt it. I mean, they can stand up to it and it's good to see they already are but the GOP doesn't give a shit if they opposed it 2 days ago. They will claim they didn't and it's different now and support it fully. And it's not like shame or charges of hypocrisy are gonna work here.

    It's not a Muslim ban, after all. It's a TERROR ban. You don't support TERROR, do you?

    Besides, you can be Muslim as long as you spent your entire life in Canada and are a Canadian citizen, so see? Obviously not a Muslim ban.

    The really galling part is that it's such an idiotic move that will have no effect but galvanizing FUCKING EVERYBODY (outside their nazi base) against them, promoting unstability, and getting a shitload of people killed. You know what would've worked ten times better and gone with only a slight amount of "what the fucking fuck"? Just adding another layer of red tape to the already broken and busted system. But no. They're idiots, overt racists, morons, and every other fucking invective possible.

    And by the way, more red tape is precisely how they're going to purge the voter roles of black people and democrats because they can't straight up block them from voting without having the White House burned down by a mob.

    ArcTangent on
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  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    Wraith260 wrote: »


    hopefully this goes beyond a tweet and becomes actual policy. all nations should be opening their arms to those displaced and turned away by America.

    I fucking love my country, but I worry that in renegotiating NAFTA we might get pressured to follow a similar tack with immgration. I don't know how likely it is, but after that interview on CBC someone mentioned upthread where a White House guy apparently made comments about Canada revising their sovreignty on refugees, a part of me can't help but be concerned...

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  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    Cello wrote: »
    Wraith260 wrote: »


    hopefully this goes beyond a tweet and becomes actual policy. all nations should be opening their arms to those displaced and turned away by America.

    I fucking love my country, but I worry that in renegotiating NAFTA we might get pressured to follow a similar tack with immgration. I don't know how likely it is, but after that interview on CBC someone mentioned upthread where a White House guy apparently made comments about Canada revising their sovreignty on refugees, a part of me can't help but be concerned...

    From someone down here in the USA. Don't assume it can't/won't happen.
    At least learn from our giant orange mistake.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 28
    Yeah Canada is going to have to make some tough calls if they want to continue trading with the US.

    tynic on
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  • Mr KhanMr Khan My power is stickiness UARegistered User regular
    Government workers listen to authority. This is a good thing, because their job is to enact policy and not to inject personal biases into it, unless the order is obviously unlawful, which this isn't (unlawful, yes, just not blatantly so).

    That's why vigilance at the top to keep out the fascists is of prime importance.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Trump said he'd jail and the away citizenship from people that burn the American flag.
    Not any kind of leap to doing it to Muslims and other"undesirables" from there.

    Don't expect being a citizen to save us. Don't expect protests to save us.

    We had protests in Bosnia too and then the Federal Army started mowing down the protestors and that was that.

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