I'm not doing a thing, I'm actually asking. I thought the issue here was the price points combined with the refund level combined with Russ' cheapskate comment.
First and foremost, it only existed as a cbill sink in order to siphon cbills out of the economy to force players into more MC and Mech pack purchases.
Secondly, it gave every single mech in the game the same buffs, while also paradoxically making IS worse (by removing existing works from mechs that desperately need them). A Kodiak getting a 50% boost to its stats is going to be a far far greater buff than an Atlas getting a 50% buff, for example.
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
Fourthly, The system was just fucking awful and did nothing but encourage a system of play that until this point PGI had tried to stamp out. Namely, massive massive boating. Trying to spread skills over multiple weapon systems just made you overall weaker compared to the guy who dumped everything into lasers or UACs. This is also a stealth nerf for IS, since IS has very few mechs that can boat single weapon types.. while Clans can play Omnipod roulette to get a dozen similar hard-points on almost any one of their mechs.
Fifthly, The biggest problem with the game to date has been power creep. The Skill tree wouldn't have been power creep, it'd have been a power fucking moonshot, which again would have been vastly more beneficial to the clans, increasing the already insane gap between clan and IS ability to do damage and operate.
Sixthly, It killed the one aspect of the game that drew everyone to play it customization. With the skill tree in place, every time you wanted to try a different load-out you'd either have to redo your load-out and spend 10 minutes resetting and respecing your skill tree for a cost, or you'd have to invest in another mech of that same chassis type, grind out the near 150k xp and millions of cbills.. Just to have a second load-out for your Hunchback 4J, or any other mech.
Seventhly, Everyones all "But I only have to have one mech to master now!" Yeah, technically, but realistically you arent just going to buy that one mech, because of all the above bullshit, you'll still end up owning several variants of the same type so you can have different load-outs and try different things, only now you get to pay magnitudes more for XP and Cbills for the "privileged"
I feel like this is the 5th time i've typed this up..can this just be linked in the thread op, @Nips? :razz:
See, I get the lack of faith in PGI, completely, but I don't feel like Energy Draw and Skill Tree are the same thing.
Like, the Skill Tree, by and large, is functional. I feel like it's a good upgrade from the current skill system, that does allow for some new things. And I don't think it's broken at all. The only real problems anybody noticed on the PTS were related to the changes to mobility. Yeah, that's related to the Skill Tree, but only by timing.
Energy Draw straight up didn't work, from everything I've heard. So I'm not sure it's completely fair to compare the two, outside the context of "I have no faith in PGI because of stuff like this"
Yeah, Energy Draw was going to see the return of 6 PPC boats. I'm pretty sure PGI could have adjusted values to avoid this, but it seems they wanted to keep Energy Draw, Damage and Heat in a 1:1:1 relationship that just wasn't possible. As soon as they started messing with everything except this central conceit, it was pretty apparent things weren't going to work out.
The new Skill Tree is power creep, doesn't help balance, and is a scummier business model, but there's nothing inherently flawed about it from a functional perspective.
I'd go on another rant about the energy draw, but Fantastic Tuesday covers most of my points well enough.
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
I want to focus on this point for a sec. There's already a massive wall new players run up against. Between map knowledge, mech mobility knowledge, mode knowledge, and weapon behavior knowledge, new players tend to get absolutely reamed when playing against people who have been playing for a whiles. The new skill tree would have made that barrier to entry seem like a fence made of popsicle sticks and Elmer's glue. Basically, if you told a new player that the mechs he/she was piloting are going to be a flat 10%-20% worse (HP-wise, weapon's-wise, sensor's-wise, etc...) version of the exact same mech the opposition is piloting, do you really think the new player is going to stick around?
Essentially, the new skill tree turned advancement into making the experienced players' mechs hit harder, be more durable, and, overall, just plain better when compared to an identical mech piloted by a new player.
And yeah, that's not even touching on the bit about the new skill tree would have given Clan mechs access to the very quirks that PGI originally put in the game to make IS mechs more viable against Clan mechs.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
I want to focus on this point for a sec. There's already a massive wall new players run up against. Between map knowledge, mech mobility knowledge, mode knowledge, and weapon behavior knowledge, new players tend to get absolutely reamed when playing against people who have been playing for a whiles. The new skill tree would have made that barrier to entry seem like a fence made of popsicle sticks and Elmer's glue. Basically, if you told a new player that the mechs he/she was piloting are going to be a flat 10%-20% worse (HP-wise, weapon's-wise, sensor's-wise, etc...) version of the exact same mech the opposition is piloting, do you really think the new player is going to stick around?
Essentially, the new skill tree turned advancement into making the experienced players' mechs hit harder, be more durable, and, overall, just plain better when compared to an identical mech piloted by a new player.
And yeah, that's not even touching on the bit about the new skill tree would have given Clan mechs access to the very quirks that PGI originally put in the game to make IS mechs more viable against Clan mechs.
Thats basically what i said? Was it not clear?
Er..not being passive aggressive, genuinely asking.
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
I want to focus on this point for a sec. There's already a massive wall new players run up against. Between map knowledge, mech mobility knowledge, mode knowledge, and weapon behavior knowledge, new players tend to get absolutely reamed when playing against people who have been playing for a whiles. The new skill tree would have made that barrier to entry seem like a fence made of popsicle sticks and Elmer's glue. Basically, if you told a new player that the mechs he/she was piloting are going to be a flat 10%-20% worse (HP-wise, weapon's-wise, sensor's-wise, etc...) version of the exact same mech the opposition is piloting, do you really think the new player is going to stick around?
Essentially, the new skill tree turned advancement into making the experienced players' mechs hit harder, be more durable, and, overall, just plain better when compared to an identical mech piloted by a new player.
And yeah, that's not even touching on the bit about the new skill tree would have given Clan mechs access to the very quirks that PGI originally put in the game to make IS mechs more viable against Clan mechs.
Thats basically what i said? Was it not clear?
Er..not being passive aggressive, genuinely asking.
Well, you didn't specify in what way the mastered mechs would be more powerful. Just a general "they'll be more powerful." Figured I'd specify that we're basically talking about "Colonel Steve Austin versus Ted from accounting" levels of difference here.
edit - added a link clarifying the Steve Austin reference
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
I want to focus on this point for a sec. There's already a massive wall new players run up against. Between map knowledge, mech mobility knowledge, mode knowledge, and weapon behavior knowledge, new players tend to get absolutely reamed when playing against people who have been playing for a whiles. The new skill tree would have made that barrier to entry seem like a fence made of popsicle sticks and Elmer's glue. Basically, if you told a new player that the mechs he/she was piloting are going to be a flat 10%-20% worse (HP-wise, weapon's-wise, sensor's-wise, etc...) version of the exact same mech the opposition is piloting, do you really think the new player is going to stick around?
Essentially, the new skill tree turned advancement into making the experienced players' mechs hit harder, be more durable, and, overall, just plain better when compared to an identical mech piloted by a new player.
And yeah, that's not even touching on the bit about the new skill tree would have given Clan mechs access to the very quirks that PGI originally put in the game to make IS mechs more viable against Clan mechs.
Thats basically what i said? Was it not clear?
Er..not being passive aggressive, genuinely asking.
Well, you didn't specify in what way the mastered mechs would be more powerful. Just a general "they'll be more powerful." Figured I'd specify that we're basically talking about "Colonel Steve Austin versus Ted from accounting" levels of difference here.
edit - added a link clarifying the Steve Austin reference
I didnt feel the need to specify cause they'd be more powerful in every way, heh.
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
I want to focus on this point for a sec. There's already a massive wall new players run up against. Between map knowledge, mech mobility knowledge, mode knowledge, and weapon behavior knowledge, new players tend to get absolutely reamed when playing against people who have been playing for a whiles. The new skill tree would have made that barrier to entry seem like a fence made of popsicle sticks and Elmer's glue. Basically, if you told a new player that the mechs he/she was piloting are going to be a flat 10%-20% worse (HP-wise, weapon's-wise, sensor's-wise, etc...) version of the exact same mech the opposition is piloting, do you really think the new player is going to stick around?
Essentially, the new skill tree turned advancement into making the experienced players' mechs hit harder, be more durable, and, overall, just plain better when compared to an identical mech piloted by a new player.
And yeah, that's not even touching on the bit about the new skill tree would have given Clan mechs access to the very quirks that PGI originally put in the game to make IS mechs more viable against Clan mechs.
Thats basically what i said? Was it not clear?
Er..not being passive aggressive, genuinely asking.
Well, you didn't specify in what way the mastered mechs would be more powerful. Just a general "they'll be more powerful." Figured I'd specify that we're basically talking about "Colonel Steve Austin versus Ted from accounting" levels of difference here.
edit - added a link clarifying the Steve Austin reference
Imagine a world where you can't put weapon modules on your mech until you get enough XP. No weapon mods, radar dep, seismic. You have to get 1000xp for every node, so instead of unlocking Cool Run and Heat Containment after your first game, you have to effectively elite it, while unlocking skills like Hill Climb, to get the same bonuses. Plus you've got stuff like extra armor and structure to unlock.
So I played some games today ! Did pretty well, good to see the tradition of whoever gets more event lurm boats loses is still intact. Warhammer is still the best mech ever, so that's nice.
Patch notes up , IS is getting a component hp buff for heavy stuff med stays the same and light gets reduced. I doubt this will change much so I'm sure the clans will cry murder.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
That's a nasty nerf to the CTCs.
And that guass and lrm nerf will probably hit Clans more.
And that guass and lrm nerf will probably hit Clans more.
TCs needed the nerf, bigly.
The SRM nerf will hit the IS more than the Clans which is just *sigh*
Maybe it's because I'm a dullard, but I never picked up TCs because of the crit chance. For me, the biggest benefit was the range increase, target info gathering, and projectile speed boost.
I mean, if I'm aiming for crits, I'm just gonna load up on LBX autocannons (which, for the most part, I already do) and call it good.
edit - as for that gauss change: wtf. I would imagine that a, as they put it, "hypersonic solid-slug projectile" would be better suited for penetrating multiple components compared to a high-explosive projectile, since, y'know, it doesn't explode and keeps on penetrating until it runs out of steam. But, then again, if we were applying logic to AP rounds, gauss rounds would make everything they hit behave like the right-torso of Buttcleft's Atlases.
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited March 2017
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Hold up, are you telling me my Banshee joke build from the last old tech matche I was in is an actual thing that gets actual use?
TOGSolid on
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NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
edited March 2017
Only by Padre, but in the most spectacular of fashions.
[Edit] The funniest part to me is mocking this build up for tabletop play. The engine needs to be a STD285 due to not allowing fractional engine sizes, but the rig only needs 33 single heat sinks to be completely heat neutral. This nets seven tons, freed up for....whatever. Jump Jets? Another laser or two with more sinks? An AC/2 with a ton of ammo, to use up that Ballistic hardpoint? The possibilities are...well, they're not endless, using 3025-level tech at least.
[Edit 2] Using those seven free tons for three jump jets and an extra heat sink is also perfectly heat-neutral...and rearranging the internals makes the 'Mech wonderfully symmetrical:
Only by Padre, but in the most spectacular of fashions.
[Edit] The funniest part to me is mocking this build up for tabletop play. The engine needs to be a STD285 due to not allowing fractional engine sizes, but the rig only needs 33 single heat sinks to be completely heat neutral. This nets seven tons, freed up for....whatever. Jump Jets? Another laser or two with more sinks? An AC/2 with a ton of ammo, to use up that Ballistic hardpoint? The possibilities are...well, they're not endless, using 3025-level tech at least.
[Edit 2] Using those seven free tons for three jump jets and an extra heat sink is also perfectly heat-neutral...and rearranging the internals makes the 'Mech wonderfully symmetrical:
Only by Padre, but in the most spectacular of fashions.
[Edit] The funniest part to me is mocking this build up for tabletop play. The engine needs to be a STD285 due to not allowing fractional engine sizes, but the rig only needs 33 single heat sinks to be completely heat neutral. This nets seven tons, freed up for....whatever. Jump Jets? Another laser or two with more sinks? An AC/2 with a ton of ammo, to use up that Ballistic hardpoint? The possibilities are...well, they're not endless, using 3025-level tech at least.
[Edit 2] Using those seven free tons for three jump jets and an extra heat sink is also perfectly heat-neutral...and rearranging the internals makes the 'Mech wonderfully symmetrical:
I never liked Battletechs quadruped mechs, it made no sense the way they did them.
The biggest advantage to quad mechs should be their ability to mount significantly more weapons and armor compared to bipedal mechs, and have a +chance to hit due to improved aim from the stability of the design, in exchange for less mobility.
Instead you end up with Quads that often have less equipment than their bipedal brothers.
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
I never liked Battletechs quadruped mechs, it made no sense the way they did them.
The biggest advantage to quad mechs should be their ability to mount significantly more weapons and armor compared to bipedal mechs, and have a +chance to hit due to improved aim from the stability of the design, in exchange for less mobility.
Instead you end up with Quads that often have less equipment than their bipedal brothers.
I really wanted quads to be good, and I think some of the ones they came up with were pretty cool, but I totally agree about their actual implementation in the tabletop rules. Having the truncated crit space from turning arms into forelegs was a crippling handicap that they never gave them enough to compensate for. The advanced rules that let you designate torso-mounted weapons as being in a turret was nice, but they should have just had it as an extra body section with all the crit space taken away from the forelegs (and raised the mechs' armor caps enough to protect it). Of course, that would require special record sheets, whereas the actual rules let you use the normal one.
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
Maybe I'm not understanding things. 4xSRM6 is 16 heat (4x4), UAC20 is 14 heat (2x7), with 16 double heat sinks (accounting for the 2 heat from running), that's heat neutral by tabletop rules (32-32). Similarly, 2xERPPC's is 30 heat (2x15), which again would be heat neutral even while running. The heat values for these weapons are the same in MWO, so why are you guys saying the heat is a problem?
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
Maybe I'm not understanding things. 4xSRM6 is 16 heat (4x4), UAC20 is 14 heat (2x7), with 16 double heat sinks (accounting for the 2 heat from running), that's heat neutral by tabletop rules (32-32). Similarly, 2xERPPC's is 30 heat (2x15), which again would be heat neutral even while running. The heat values for these weapons are the same in MWO, so why are you guys saying the heat is a problem?
Mostly because while the heat values may be the same, the heat mitigation numbers aren't. I just popped into the test range (one of the frozen wastes) to check it out with 18 DHS...and with just firing the UAC20+SRM24, you can get off 3 (maybe 4) full volleys (double-shots on the ultras) before you shutdown. While it's pumping out a lot of damage, that's kind of narrower a margin than what I feel comfortable with. Hence dropping two of the launchers down to SRM4s (also, I looked at my setup again, and it looks like I use an UAC10 instead of the UAC20).
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
Maybe I'm not understanding things. 4xSRM6 is 16 heat (4x4), UAC20 is 14 heat (2x7), with 16 double heat sinks (accounting for the 2 heat from running), that's heat neutral by tabletop rules (32-32). Similarly, 2xERPPC's is 30 heat (2x15), which again would be heat neutral even while running. The heat values for these weapons are the same in MWO, so why are you guys saying the heat is a problem?
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
Maybe I'm not understanding things. 4xSRM6 is 16 heat (4x4), UAC20 is 14 heat (2x7), with 16 double heat sinks (accounting for the 2 heat from running), that's heat neutral by tabletop rules (32-32). Similarly, 2xERPPC's is 30 heat (2x15), which again would be heat neutral even while running. The heat values for these weapons are the same in MWO, so why are you guys saying the heat is a problem?
Ghost heat on the SRM6.
Ghost heat won't kick on for four SRM6 launchers. If there was a fifth, though, that'd be a concern.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
So, how is this (essentially my idea of a Clan Atlas)? And what would you recommend for the last ton & crit? TarCom 1, or Active Probe, or more ammo? It's a Spirit Bear with a 300XL, nearly full armor, UAC20 (8 tons ammo), 4xSRM6+A (6 tons ammo), & 2x ERPPC. The PPC's are for a little long-range poke, the UAC and SRM's are the main weapons (one to punch holes, the other to seek crits; coincidentally, both weapon groups make 30 heat). I was tempted to go with sSRM's to match the range of the Ultra, but IIRC you all seemed to feel regular SRMs were better?
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
Maybe I'm not understanding things. 4xSRM6 is 16 heat (4x4), UAC20 is 14 heat (2x7), with 16 double heat sinks (accounting for the 2 heat from running), that's heat neutral by tabletop rules (32-32). Similarly, 2xERPPC's is 30 heat (2x15), which again would be heat neutral even while running. The heat values for these weapons are the same in MWO, so why are you guys saying the heat is a problem?
Ghost heat on the SRM6.
Ghost heat won't kick on for four SRM6 launchers. If there was a fifth, though, that'd be a concern.
well I'm gonna take a break Didn't seem like anyone was interested in "playing" mwo
I mean...you did say "pickup game"...so I thought that meant that you were doing solo drops (corroborated by you being in a match when I popped on real quick). I'm hankering to take my Timber Wolf out some more!
How come the heat sinks are so much less effective in MWO?
It's mostly because PGI don't want people to put together heat neutral builds that can just constantly stream out damage the entire match.
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
Ah. I guess that's a pretty good balance call, though it kinda screws me because that's exactly what I tend to build for in tabletop and older PC games.
Ah. I guess that's a pretty good balance call, though it kinda screws me because that's exactly what I tend to build for in tabletop and older PC games.
I always did the same. It's refreshing to actually have a resource to manage. I've found it slightly steepens the learning curve, but makes the game way more fun (especially when the bad guy shuts down)
Posts
First and foremost, it only existed as a cbill sink in order to siphon cbills out of the economy to force players into more MC and Mech pack purchases.
Secondly, it gave every single mech in the game the same buffs, while also paradoxically making IS worse (by removing existing works from mechs that desperately need them). A Kodiak getting a 50% boost to its stats is going to be a far far greater buff than an Atlas getting a 50% buff, for example.
Thirdly, it was hugely unfair to new players.. possibly they didn't care cause the number of new players coming in are diminishing.
3a) The cost to master a single mech was inflated significantly. New players who could buy 2-4 mechs with their cadet bonuses look at now being able to get 1 mech plus skills after reequipping it from shit stock.
3b) The game is dying, which means newbie players being dropped against t1 elites and try hards. Try being a know nothing newbie, and be told you have to spend the equivalent cost of another mech, and grind out near 150,000XP just to master it.
3c) Why would you ask them to master it? because under the new system, Mastered mechs are so significantly more powerful than unmastered that you are at a massive disadvantage. Newbie players not knowing how to play the game, asking to spend shittons of time to grind out shittons of money, to play a mech that is significantly inferior to the other mechs of the same type thats being piloted by tryhard t1 players. This is in contrast to the old system, where a mastered mech has just a few pleasant tweaks that doesnt make it impossible for an unskilled variant to overcome it.
Fourthly, The system was just fucking awful and did nothing but encourage a system of play that until this point PGI had tried to stamp out. Namely, massive massive boating. Trying to spread skills over multiple weapon systems just made you overall weaker compared to the guy who dumped everything into lasers or UACs. This is also a stealth nerf for IS, since IS has very few mechs that can boat single weapon types.. while Clans can play Omnipod roulette to get a dozen similar hard-points on almost any one of their mechs.
Fifthly, The biggest problem with the game to date has been power creep. The Skill tree wouldn't have been power creep, it'd have been a power fucking moonshot, which again would have been vastly more beneficial to the clans, increasing the already insane gap between clan and IS ability to do damage and operate.
Sixthly, It killed the one aspect of the game that drew everyone to play it customization. With the skill tree in place, every time you wanted to try a different load-out you'd either have to redo your load-out and spend 10 minutes resetting and respecing your skill tree for a cost, or you'd have to invest in another mech of that same chassis type, grind out the near 150k xp and millions of cbills.. Just to have a second load-out for your Hunchback 4J, or any other mech.
Seventhly, Everyones all "But I only have to have one mech to master now!" Yeah, technically, but realistically you arent just going to buy that one mech, because of all the above bullshit, you'll still end up owning several variants of the same type so you can have different load-outs and try different things, only now you get to pay magnitudes more for XP and Cbills for the "privileged"
I feel like this is the 5th time i've typed this up..can this just be linked in the thread op, @Nips? :razz:
I'd go on another rant about the energy draw, but Fantastic Tuesday covers most of my points well enough.
I want to focus on this point for a sec. There's already a massive wall new players run up against. Between map knowledge, mech mobility knowledge, mode knowledge, and weapon behavior knowledge, new players tend to get absolutely reamed when playing against people who have been playing for a whiles. The new skill tree would have made that barrier to entry seem like a fence made of popsicle sticks and Elmer's glue. Basically, if you told a new player that the mechs he/she was piloting are going to be a flat 10%-20% worse (HP-wise, weapon's-wise, sensor's-wise, etc...) version of the exact same mech the opposition is piloting, do you really think the new player is going to stick around?
Essentially, the new skill tree turned advancement into making the experienced players' mechs hit harder, be more durable, and, overall, just plain better when compared to an identical mech piloted by a new player.
And yeah, that's not even touching on the bit about the new skill tree would have given Clan mechs access to the very quirks that PGI originally put in the game to make IS mechs more viable against Clan mechs.
Thats basically what i said? Was it not clear?
Er..not being passive aggressive, genuinely asking.
Well, you didn't specify in what way the mastered mechs would be more powerful. Just a general "they'll be more powerful." Figured I'd specify that we're basically talking about "Colonel Steve Austin versus Ted from accounting" levels of difference here.
edit - added a link clarifying the Steve Austin reference
I didnt feel the need to specify cause they'd be more powerful in every way, heh.
Imagine a world where you can't put weapon modules on your mech until you get enough XP. No weapon mods, radar dep, seismic. You have to get 1000xp for every node, so instead of unlocking Cool Run and Heat Containment after your first game, you have to effectively elite it, while unlocking skills like Hill Climb, to get the same bonuses. Plus you've got stuff like extra armor and structure to unlock.
You can go play with it here: https://nbarnes.github.io/mwo_skill_tree_planner/
Patch notes up , IS is getting a component hp buff for heavy stuff med stays the same and light gets reduced. I doubt this will change much so I'm sure the clans will cry murder.
And that guass and lrm nerf will probably hit Clans more.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
TCs needed the nerf, bigly.
The SRM nerf will hit the IS more than the Clans which is just *sigh*
MWO: Adamski
Maybe it's because I'm a dullard, but I never picked up TCs because of the crit chance. For me, the biggest benefit was the range increase, target info gathering, and projectile speed boost.
I mean, if I'm aiming for crits, I'm just gonna load up on LBX autocannons (which, for the most part, I already do) and call it good.
edit - as for that gauss change: wtf. I would imagine that a, as they put it, "hypersonic solid-slug projectile" would be better suited for penetrating multiple components compared to a high-explosive projectile, since, y'know, it doesn't explode and keeps on penetrating until it runs out of steam. But, then again, if we were applying logic to AP rounds, gauss rounds would make everything they hit behave like the right-torso of Buttcleft's Atlases.
I tried 6xSRM6+A but found it ran way too hot for brawling work (it would definitely require doubling their weapon group so you can launch all ze missiles on one, and chain-fire them on the other). Other than that, the UAC20 + SRM combo is brutal. As for Streaks versus standard SRMs, there are two main problems with Streaks: 1) the cooldown on the Streak-6es is way too long for brawling, and 2) Streaks scatter the damage of the missiles too much. With standard SRMs with Artemis, you're looking at a concentrated cloud of hurt as soon as they walk into range of you.
EDIT - and, just for reference, this is the Spirit Bear build that I use (or close to it...I can't recall exactly how it's all laid out).
Hold up, are you telling me my Banshee joke build from the last old tech matche I was in is an actual thing that gets actual use?
[Edit] The funniest part to me is mocking this build up for tabletop play. The engine needs to be a STD285 due to not allowing fractional engine sizes, but the rig only needs 33 single heat sinks to be completely heat neutral. This nets seven tons, freed up for....whatever. Jump Jets? Another laser or two with more sinks? An AC/2 with a ton of ammo, to use up that Ballistic hardpoint? The possibilities are...well, they're not endless, using 3025-level tech at least.
[Edit 2] Using those seven free tons for three jump jets and an extra heat sink is also perfectly heat-neutral...and rearranging the internals makes the 'Mech wonderfully symmetrical:
I should totally run that in megamek sometime.
as a quad
The biggest advantage to quad mechs should be their ability to mount significantly more weapons and armor compared to bipedal mechs, and have a +chance to hit due to improved aim from the stability of the design, in exchange for less mobility.
Instead you end up with Quads that often have less equipment than their bipedal brothers.
I actually run pretty much meta build with the 4SRM6As, 2LBX20, and 2ERSL (for shooting down UAVs). I have it completely mastered so probably why the heat doesn't effect me much at all now. It also can sprint at 90 KPH with its MASC. You really need to shield the LBX though since it is pretty delicate. I found any of the Kodiaks with ERPPCs run way too hot leaving it way too vulnerable.
It pretty much is like this, but with 2ERSL - SPIRIT BEAR
Steam: betsuni7
Funny how they finally get a nerf after the announcement the IS will be getting them.
Well duh. Cant let IS have nice things.
I really wanted quads to be good, and I think some of the ones they came up with were pretty cool, but I totally agree about their actual implementation in the tabletop rules. Having the truncated crit space from turning arms into forelegs was a crippling handicap that they never gave them enough to compensate for. The advanced rules that let you designate torso-mounted weapons as being in a turret was nice, but they should have just had it as an extra body section with all the crit space taken away from the forelegs (and raised the mechs' armor caps enough to protect it). Of course, that would require special record sheets, whereas the actual rules let you use the normal one.
Maybe I'm not understanding things. 4xSRM6 is 16 heat (4x4), UAC20 is 14 heat (2x7), with 16 double heat sinks (accounting for the 2 heat from running), that's heat neutral by tabletop rules (32-32). Similarly, 2xERPPC's is 30 heat (2x15), which again would be heat neutral even while running. The heat values for these weapons are the same in MWO, so why are you guys saying the heat is a problem?
Mostly because while the heat values may be the same, the heat mitigation numbers aren't. I just popped into the test range (one of the frozen wastes) to check it out with 18 DHS...and with just firing the UAC20+SRM24, you can get off 3 (maybe 4) full volleys (double-shots on the ultras) before you shutdown. While it's pumping out a lot of damage, that's kind of narrower a margin than what I feel comfortable with. Hence dropping two of the launchers down to SRM4s (also, I looked at my setup again, and it looks like I use an UAC10 instead of the UAC20).
Ghost heat on the SRM6.
Ghost heat won't kick on for four SRM6 launchers. If there was a fifth, though, that'd be a concern.
Ah, thought it was 3.
How come the heat sinks are so much less effective in MWO?
I mean...you did say "pickup game"...so I thought that meant that you were doing solo drops (corroborated by you being in a match when I popped on real quick). I'm hankering to take my Timber Wolf out some more!
It's mostly because PGI don't want people to put together heat neutral builds that can just constantly stream out damage the entire match.
I always did the same. It's refreshing to actually have a resource to manage. I've found it slightly steepens the learning curve, but makes the game way more fun (especially when the bad guy shuts down)
Wait is this like, a real build? If so, how does it work cause I am super curious to run it.
Are the standard heatsinks for crit reasons?
IIRC, Padre was originally too cheap to put on DHS, and worked out a build with singles that wouldn't combust on firing its weapons.
It just turns out to be really tanky and heat efficient, despite the lower tech base.
It had nothing to do with cheap and everything to do with feeling like doing something stupid.
Its basically a jenner that has ended up on "My 600lbs life"