Last year I said this whole segregating the cards was a bad idea, and now they can't even keep with the original intent. Now this time next year, they'll scrap some more classic cards. There's no surefire stability anywhere, and dumping 3 sets of 130 cards over the course of the year is at a pace someone who doesn't religiously play, or at least win consistently in Arena, can keep up with. I'm already playing Overwatch and HoTS as well. I don't even care I'm getting free dust, because when I want my measly little chest I go to wild and stomp people with my old school tempo mage. I don't -need- cards anymore because the goals of going past that point require so much time or money (or time -and- money) to build a deck that's worth a damn.
I think, though, the more common opinion is that Hearthstone actually releases too few cards. The big comparison is always with Magic, which is basically the "winner" of card games. And apparently Magic releases a bunch more cards each year (I don't play Magic so I don't know).
Looking at just Standard sets (magic puts out supplemental sets with other focuses that are just as large, but we'll disqualify them for this for obvious comparison reasons) each year Magic puts out two large sets of approximately 260 cards each, and two small sets of approximately 185 cards. So that's roughly 900 cards a year. Now, there are some caveats you have to make when making this comparison. For starters, Magic's limited format is very different than Arena. If you're going to draft in Magic you're going to either draft 3 boosters from a large set, or 2 small set packs accompanied by the 1 large set pack that ties into that set. Because each block of cards needs to serve the purpose of a new draft format, you wind up with some cards that are not actually meaningful additions to the card pool.
This for example is a new card from the latest set, and while it's the first time there's ever been a dwarf soldier 3/2 for 2W...that's not actually important. It's just a simple statline to fill out your draft curve that has been seen before, with some minor benefit if you have one of the few cards from the set that buffs dwarves. Because Hearthstone does not remove cards from the Arena pool, they would never have a need to make a new 3/2 for 2W, unless they very aggressively wanted to support dwarf tribal with it.
Now, the other side of this is that Magic also has more "classes" than Hearthstone. Hearthstone makes 10 card types - the 9 classes and neutral. Magic makes cards for the 5 colours, colourless cards, and then a variety of cards for multiple colour combinations. While they don't always support every colour combination - 4 colour and 5 colour cards are exceptionally rare, and 3 colour cards are also very infrequent if it's not a set focused on 3 colour cards - they have that knob to turn and customize.
And ultimately, that variety of knobs is also an important aspect to consider when comparing card quality. Hearthstone has Minions, Spells, and Weapons. Magic has Creatures, Instants, Sorceries, Artifacts, Enchantments, Lands, and Planeswalkers. Creatures in Hearthstone can have Battlecry, Charge, Combo, Deathrattle, Divine Shield, Enrage, Immune, Overload, Spellpower, Stealth, Taunt, Windfury, Inspire, and Can't Be Targeted by Spells/Hero Powers. Creatures in Magic can have Enter the Battlefield, Leave the Battlefield, Dies, Deathtouch, Defender, Doublestrike, Fight, First Strike, Flash, Flying, Haste, Hexproof, Indestructible, Lifelink, Menace, Prowess, Reach, Scry, Trample, Vigilance. Even if Magic and Hearthstone were solely creature games, Magic should still theoretically have more cards simply because they have more knobs to turn to make something unique (and I didn't even mention that each set has new keywords just for that set). Whether it's through the variety of card types or the variety of words you can put on a card, Magic just simply can make more cards than Hearthstone right now.
If Hearthstone adds more mechanics, obviously this discrepancy can be caught up. But the cost of simplifying mechanics is that you just don't have the ability to make as many cards.
Yeah the fact they haven't announced the next expansion yet means we still have a while to go if they keep up with the slow burn reveal of all the cards in the set for weeks beforehand.
Although the last one went a bit quicker than Old Gods did.
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
It's probably worth adding that I think Hearthstone would benefit massively from a shift towards more class cards and far fewer, but more interesting neutral cards, in its expansions. This plays into the discussion of power levels on cards, and is part of where I'm coming from on SI:7 and others.
This has had some explicit show-casing with Jade, nuReno, C'Thun, Dragon and to a lesser extent Pirates. Too much of the core of these deck themes is neutral, and the only class that really gets to play them is whichever has the best complementary class cards. You could play C'Thun Druid in WotOG for example, but you would flat out lose to C'Thun Warrior or Priest because half of your cards map exactly 1-to-1, and of the others, you're worse off. The same has generally applied to all of the decks listed; too much reliance on neutral cards as the core of these decks actually hurts the diversity of use for the theme.
(Just want to say that example is kinda funny since C'thun Druid is the only C'thun deck that remained playable after new expansions came in.)
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Probably because their druid C'Thun taunt was a pain in the ass.
(Just want to say that example is kinda funny since C'thun Druid is the only C'thun deck that remained playable after new expansions came in.)
This isn't the same C'Thun druid that existed in WotOG though!
It pretty much is though. At least, my list barely changed. I swapped out Ancient Harbinger and added in the second feral rage as a nod to the meta getting faster.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
It pretty much is though. At least, my list barely changed. I swapped out Ancient Harbinger and added in the second feral rage as a nod to the meta getting faster.
The only C'Thun druid that's being played competitively right now is Kun druid. It isn't remotely like the steady ramp style of WotOG.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
It pretty much is though. At least, my list barely changed. I swapped out Ancient Harbinger and added in the second feral rage as a nod to the meta getting faster.
The only C'Thun druid that's being played competitively right now is Kun druid. It isn't remotely like the steady ramp style of WotOG.
Like, high-level competitive, maybe not. But just tempo c'thun druid is a fine enough tier 2 deck. I don't even run any ramp (well, nourish is in there, but you never ramp with nourish).
Edit: Reynad was actually doing well with midrange C'thun druid in legend last season, as well. Though he was running wild growths rather than beckoner and the 4/10.
The Escape Goat on
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited February 2017
My tavern Brawl experience:
Game 1: Won on Turn 2.
Game 2: Lost. Drew secrets, no card draw, and no burn.
Game 3: Lost. Drew secrets, no card draw, and no burn.
Game 4: Won on Turn 5 after drawing Pyroblast into Pyroblast with a Violet Illusionist in hand.
Game 5: Lost on Turn 2.
Game 6: Lost on Turn 4. Drew too much burn and didn't draw Violet Illusionist.
Game 7: Won on Turn 2. Drew Violet Illusionist and burn.
Game 8: Won on Turn 4. Drew Violet Illusionist and all my card draw. Opposing Paladin emptied his hand on Turn 2, which I cleared on Turn 3, and he lingered around for one more turn.
Game 9: Lost on Turn 1. Hunter went: Coin (trigger my Counterspell) > Fiery Bat > Kill Command > Kill Command > Call of the Wild.
Game 10: Lost on Turn 3, played it out another turn but encountered the Your Life is Too Low Even Though You're Immune bug. Another Hunter with Call of the Wild.
Game 11: Won on Turn 3. Flamewalker shenanigans.
As someone who really, really enjoys playing Dragon Priest, I am both ecstatic and saddened to see Azure Drake "go away."
I have some bad news for you about the next Standard rotation.
Honestly Drakonid Operative is SUCH a strong card I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some version of Dragon Priest survive in some form. BRM rotating out sucks, losing TwiGuardian and Wyrmrest sucks, but I think there's still a way to make it work. Maybe just not as many Dragons, just to make use of Drakonid Operative? Hmmm...
As someone who really, really enjoys playing Dragon Priest, I am both ecstatic and saddened to see Azure Drake "go away."
I have some bad news for you about the next Standard rotation.
Honestly Drakonid Operative is SUCH a strong card I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some version of Dragon Priest survive in some form. BRM rotating out sucks, losing TwiGuardian and Wyrmrest sucks, but I think there's still a way to make it work. Maybe just not as many Dragons, just to make use of Drakonid Operative? Hmmm...
I agree, but it's not going to look anything like what it does now. Probably be a more control style shell taking advantage of Netherspite Historian and Book Wyrm.
Dragon synergy will be like mech synergy right now
Except we still have relevant late-game dragons, and Drakonid, Netherspite, and Book Wyrm are all way stronger than Gorillabot (mostly because the big late-game mechs rotated out so Gorillabot can't grab them, and having a thing in hand is a lot easier than having it on board).
+4
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Mechs as a whole suffer from the fact that virtually none of them interact with your opponent. And the few that do are terrible cards (Flame Leviathan, Fel Cannon, Demolisher, Explosive Sheep, Shadowboxer) or were the sole exception in Blastmage.
Dragons, meanwhile, have shit like: Alexstrasza, Deathwing, Nefarian, Ysera, Chillmaw, Book Wyrm, Alexstrasza's Champion, Rend Blackhand, Blackwing Corruptor.
Regardless of what's rotating out, Dragons as a tribe are just strictly better designed.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Fel Cannon and Shadowboxer are actually really good, they just need a little extra setup and the GvG meta was too fast for that.
+2
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2017
great news! fine with the specifics but super amped about the general notion of pushing cards to wild.
now if they'd start throwing out passes like this once a month or once per content release the game would be just about where I want it as far as their willingness to make changes.
edit - I also disagree with the notion a few pages back that auctioneer isn't a high skill related card. not everyone has been playing miracle rogue for 3 years. throwing out spells and drawing is actually a hell of a lot of thought and decision making. extra true with different eras of rogue but it remains true. you can't just cast all your spells or you might run out of damage or walk yourself into a ton of other problems.
it's not as though every rogue who ever drew through their deck won that game.
i want them to release the pre-nerf version of force of nature for wild, that would make me excited.
i realize we can never have old keeper back. old ancient of lore might be too slow in a format with real aggro, but i still want it back too.
but FoN was just so good, it was the heart of the deck. secret paladin vs. midrange druid was my favorite meta, and it could happen again in wild!
Makes sense that they're removing Rag; used to be he was valued as a threat that was unaffected by silence, but then they decided no one should run silence anyway, so :rotate:
Good changes, their goal should be to hit 50% playable cards next expansion.
So was anything actually "Kraken" themed other than Whispers?
Khara didn't really have much kraken about it, nor did gadgetzan?
Like, I don't quite get the whole concept.
It's just a name, like zodiac signs or the chinese "year of the pig" or whatever. They didn't want to call it "Standard 2016" etc because it doesn't align with calendar years and they needed a term that can be illustrated with symbols.
It's sort of marginal, but I think it was fair.
Old gods = big tentacle things, and Gadgetzan is a port and has (playable, notable) pirates.
Karazhan... yeah, no relation.
I don't know if any other symbols would make more sense tbh.
Man now im sad i crafted alex and dirty rat like 5 hours before this announcement. I had enough dust to make a golden sylvannas and earn a free leggy from dusting her after the refund.
Oh well i still have 1000 left, so only 2200 to go.
bwanie on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
@bwanie I think you still haven't added me, I deffo need more friends EU side. (my tag is grobian#1937)
I hated the change to Standard and I hate this announcement, too. I don't care what attention they pay to Wild, it will always be Hearthstone's ghetto. Every card from Classic that gets moved to the Hall of Fame is more erosion of the time, effort, and money I've put into the game. I understand that it may very well be impossible to balance a game without limiting card selection, but that probably just means collectible card games aren't for me. I wish I had understood this coming out of beta, but c'est la vie.
I hated the change to Standard and I hate this announcement, too. I don't care what attention they pay to Wild, it will always be Hearthstone's ghetto. Every card from Classic that gets moved to the Hall of Fame is more erosion of the time, effort, and money I've put into the game. I understand that it may very well be impossible to balance a game without limiting card selection, but that probably just means collectible card games aren't for me. I wish I had understood this coming out of beta, but c'est la vie.
they're giving you the full dust value of the cards for free. nothing is eroding at all.
If anything, these are cards that are SO popular that they were stalling the design of the game.
So moving these makes room for newer and more interesting cards. It also makes room in your 30 card deck for something else which is probably a better reason.
VS Report #38
Shaman hits 40% representation at Ranks 5-1.
Aggro Rogue has surprassed Miracle Rogue due to a better Shaman/Warrior matchup. Modern Miracle had basically become a tempo midrange deck anyway, so I guess it's not that much of a change.
As someone who really, really enjoys playing Dragon Priest, I am both ecstatic and saddened to see Azure Drake "go away."
I have some bad news for you about the next Standard rotation.
Honestly Drakonid Operative is SUCH a strong card I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some version of Dragon Priest survive in some form. BRM rotating out sucks, losing TwiGuardian and Wyrmrest sucks, but I think there's still a way to make it work. Maybe just not as many Dragons, just to make use of Drakonid Operative? Hmmm...
I agree, but it's not going to look anything like what it does now. Probably be a more control style shell taking advantage of Netherspite Historian and Book Wyrm.
There's probably something viable built around Faerie Dragon, Netherspite Historian, Midnight Drake, Drakonid Operative, Book Wyrm, Scaled Nightmare, and the various legendary dragons. And of course, we'll see what rotates in.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Posts
Looking at just Standard sets (magic puts out supplemental sets with other focuses that are just as large, but we'll disqualify them for this for obvious comparison reasons) each year Magic puts out two large sets of approximately 260 cards each, and two small sets of approximately 185 cards. So that's roughly 900 cards a year. Now, there are some caveats you have to make when making this comparison. For starters, Magic's limited format is very different than Arena. If you're going to draft in Magic you're going to either draft 3 boosters from a large set, or 2 small set packs accompanied by the 1 large set pack that ties into that set. Because each block of cards needs to serve the purpose of a new draft format, you wind up with some cards that are not actually meaningful additions to the card pool.
This for example is a new card from the latest set, and while it's the first time there's ever been a dwarf soldier 3/2 for 2W...that's not actually important. It's just a simple statline to fill out your draft curve that has been seen before, with some minor benefit if you have one of the few cards from the set that buffs dwarves. Because Hearthstone does not remove cards from the Arena pool, they would never have a need to make a new 3/2 for 2W, unless they very aggressively wanted to support dwarf tribal with it.
Now, the other side of this is that Magic also has more "classes" than Hearthstone. Hearthstone makes 10 card types - the 9 classes and neutral. Magic makes cards for the 5 colours, colourless cards, and then a variety of cards for multiple colour combinations. While they don't always support every colour combination - 4 colour and 5 colour cards are exceptionally rare, and 3 colour cards are also very infrequent if it's not a set focused on 3 colour cards - they have that knob to turn and customize.
And ultimately, that variety of knobs is also an important aspect to consider when comparing card quality. Hearthstone has Minions, Spells, and Weapons. Magic has Creatures, Instants, Sorceries, Artifacts, Enchantments, Lands, and Planeswalkers. Creatures in Hearthstone can have Battlecry, Charge, Combo, Deathrattle, Divine Shield, Enrage, Immune, Overload, Spellpower, Stealth, Taunt, Windfury, Inspire, and Can't Be Targeted by Spells/Hero Powers. Creatures in Magic can have Enter the Battlefield, Leave the Battlefield, Dies, Deathtouch, Defender, Doublestrike, Fight, First Strike, Flash, Flying, Haste, Hexproof, Indestructible, Lifelink, Menace, Prowess, Reach, Scry, Trample, Vigilance. Even if Magic and Hearthstone were solely creature games, Magic should still theoretically have more cards simply because they have more knobs to turn to make something unique (and I didn't even mention that each set has new keywords just for that set). Whether it's through the variety of card types or the variety of words you can put on a card, Magic just simply can make more cards than Hearthstone right now.
If Hearthstone adds more mechanics, obviously this discrepancy can be caught up. But the cost of simplifying mechanics is that you just don't have the ability to make as many cards.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Although the last one went a bit quicker than Old Gods did.
(Just want to say that example is kinda funny since C'thun Druid is the only C'thun deck that remained playable after new expansions came in.)
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
And also because it's a deck that wins before like turn 30.
It pretty much is though. At least, my list barely changed. I swapped out Ancient Harbinger and added in the second feral rage as a nod to the meta getting faster.
Like, high-level competitive, maybe not. But just tempo c'thun druid is a fine enough tier 2 deck. I don't even run any ramp (well, nourish is in there, but you never ramp with nourish).
Edit: Reynad was actually doing well with midrange C'thun druid in legend last season, as well. Though he was running wild growths rather than beckoner and the 4/10.
Game 1: Won on Turn 2.
Game 2: Lost. Drew secrets, no card draw, and no burn.
Game 3: Lost. Drew secrets, no card draw, and no burn.
Game 4: Won on Turn 5 after drawing Pyroblast into Pyroblast with a Violet Illusionist in hand.
Game 5: Lost on Turn 2.
Game 6: Lost on Turn 4. Drew too much burn and didn't draw Violet Illusionist.
Game 7: Won on Turn 2. Drew Violet Illusionist and burn.
Game 8: Won on Turn 4. Drew Violet Illusionist and all my card draw. Opposing Paladin emptied his hand on Turn 2, which I cleared on Turn 3, and he lingered around for one more turn.
Game 9: Lost on Turn 1. Hunter went: Coin (trigger my Counterspell) > Fiery Bat > Kill Command > Kill Command > Call of the Wild.
Game 10: Lost on Turn 3, played it out another turn but encountered the Your Life is Too Low Even Though You're Immune bug. Another Hunter with Call of the Wild.
Game 11: Won on Turn 3. Flamewalker shenanigans.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
*faces Reno Priest in first matchup*
*has 75 armor, chuckles to self, wins on a concede*
I approve of any scenario in which a Reno deck loses.
I have some bad news for you about the next Standard rotation.
Don't remind me.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Honestly Drakonid Operative is SUCH a strong card I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some version of Dragon Priest survive in some form. BRM rotating out sucks, losing TwiGuardian and Wyrmrest sucks, but I think there's still a way to make it work. Maybe just not as many Dragons, just to make use of Drakonid Operative? Hmmm...
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I agree, but it's not going to look anything like what it does now. Probably be a more control style shell taking advantage of Netherspite Historian and Book Wyrm.
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Except we still have relevant late-game dragons, and Drakonid, Netherspite, and Book Wyrm are all way stronger than Gorillabot (mostly because the big late-game mechs rotated out so Gorillabot can't grab them, and having a thing in hand is a lot easier than having it on board).
Dragons, meanwhile, have shit like: Alexstrasza, Deathwing, Nefarian, Ysera, Chillmaw, Book Wyrm, Alexstrasza's Champion, Rend Blackhand, Blackwing Corruptor.
Regardless of what's rotating out, Dragons as a tribe are just strictly better designed.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
now if they'd start throwing out passes like this once a month or once per content release the game would be just about where I want it as far as their willingness to make changes.
edit - I also disagree with the notion a few pages back that auctioneer isn't a high skill related card. not everyone has been playing miracle rogue for 3 years. throwing out spells and drawing is actually a hell of a lot of thought and decision making. extra true with different eras of rogue but it remains true. you can't just cast all your spells or you might run out of damage or walk yourself into a ton of other problems.
it's not as though every rogue who ever drew through their deck won that game.
i realize we can never have old keeper back. old ancient of lore might be too slow in a format with real aggro, but i still want it back too.
but FoN was just so good, it was the heart of the deck. secret paladin vs. midrange druid was my favorite meta, and it could happen again in wild!
Good changes, their goal should be to hit 50% playable cards next expansion.
It's sort of marginal, but I think it was fair.
Old gods = big tentacle things, and Gadgetzan is a port and has (playable, notable) pirates.
Karazhan... yeah, no relation.
I don't know if any other symbols would make more sense tbh.
Oh well i still have 1000 left, so only 2200 to go.
No @bwanie Add me instead! hippofant#1651
I'll get on it tonight
let's fight :-)
If you want to lose to Secret Pally while doing your "friend" quests then by all means add hippofant, yeah.
i'm gonna add all the europe dudes, post your tags homies
they're giving you the full dust value of the cards for free. nothing is eroding at all.
So moving these makes room for newer and more interesting cards. It also makes room in your 30 card deck for something else which is probably a better reason.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Shaman hits 40% representation at Ranks 5-1.
Aggro Rogue has surprassed Miracle Rogue due to a better Shaman/Warrior matchup. Modern Miracle had basically become a tempo midrange deck anyway, so I guess it's not that much of a change.
There's probably something viable built around Faerie Dragon, Netherspite Historian, Midnight Drake, Drakonid Operative, Book Wyrm, Scaled Nightmare, and the various legendary dragons. And of course, we'll see what rotates in.