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Foreign Policy in the Age of Trump

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Trump does strike me as someone who shrivels up into nothing when being stepped to by someone who really doesn't have to take his shit.

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  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

    This assumes the person was making an effort.

  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

    This assumes the person was making an effort.

    Even if his entire body was focused solely on the question of "Why doesn't everyone just love me already", it would still be utterly exhausting.

    Plus, I believe, stress from negativity is substantially more aging and harmful than stress from things you either enjoy or are minimally fulfilling.
    Kana wrote: »
    Trump's day of no one liking him is only getting more awkward



    Good on the Irish PM

    Damn hell. Dude doesn't need a "good on ya", he's got testicles you could see from the space station. Mortal praise probably means nothing. I know nothing about the guy, but to stand in front of the literal face of modern hate and bigotry, and give him the finger, good lord. That's epic, end of Love Actually wet dream levels of give-no-fucks.

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  • OghulkOghulk Be Humble Sit DownRegistered User regular
    edited March 17
    I think if there's one country I'd like to go to it'd be Ireland.

    Their economy is growing at a crazy rate, and within the decade it will be the biggest software-based country in the entirety of Europe aside from maybe Estonia.

    e: So good on Ireland for sticking up for themselves. Hope they get more leverage with the rest of Europe as they continue to grow.

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  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    What happens in the video?

  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    Magus` wrote: »
    What happens in the video?

    Instead of empty talk about St Patrick, he points out he was an immigrant, how the Irish have been notable immigrants to the US, and how the US has always been a beacon of hope for people looking for a new start, or a safe place, in the past.

    Massively paraphrasing, obviously. It's only under 2m long; definitely worth just watching.

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  • Magus`Magus` Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    What happens in the video?

    Instead of empty talk about St Patrick, he points out he was an immigrant, how the Irish have been notable immigrants to the US, and how the US has always been a beacon of hope for people looking for a new start, or a safe place, in the past.

    Massively paraphrasing, obviously. It's only under 2m long; definitely worth just watching.

    It's a data thing. I'll check it out at home.

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    What happens in the video?

    Instead of empty talk about St Patrick, he points out he was an immigrant, how the Irish have been notable immigrants to the US, and how the US has always been a beacon of hope for people looking for a new start, or a safe place, in the past.

    Massively paraphrasing, obviously. It's only under 2m long; definitely worth just watching.

    He gave Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric a verbal middle finger while Trump had to stand there.

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  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

    That reminds me, can we get a clarification on the "no speculating about Trump being killed" policy? Does it apply only to violent deaths, or are we also banned from gleefully speculating about whether the stress of the job and dealing with protests will kill him?

  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    jothki wrote: »
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

    That reminds me, can we get a clarification on the "no speculating about Trump being killed" policy? Does it apply only to violent deaths, or are we also banned from gleefully speculating about whether the stress of the job and dealing with protests will kill him?

    Sorry, I can remove that part of my post, I only said that in reference to the current discussion that popped up because of Tillerson and fatigue, and how someone pointed out this administration is among the oldest and least healthy.

    I wasn't specifically trying to get on a "zomg trump is gonna die" thing. :(

    If Strom Thurmond, among others, is indicative of anything, it's that hate is just as life prolonging as health. :rotate:

    EDIT: I totally said Thurgood Marshall, when I meant Strom Thurmond. Not the same dude. At all. :rotate:

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    So, in some meat, the press conference was about Merkel arguing for refugees and Trump talking about how jobs are coming back to the US:
    German Chancellor Angela Merkel stressed her commitment to refugees during a press conference held after her meeting with President Donald Trump, who has actively fought to keep Syrian refugees out of the U.S. He totally dodged the topic in his response.

    “Immigration has to be worked on, but this has to be done by looking at refugees as well,” she said.

    Helping countries in need is a priority, she added, and accepting refugees is “the right way of going about it and that’s obviously what we have an exchange of views about.”

    Trump completely ignored Merkel’s comments, returning instead to a point he stressed previously: Trade needs to be reformed in order to be more favorable to U.S. interests.

    “There are many plants and factories coming back to the United States,” he said. “We will have a different policy but it’s going to be a great policy for the United States [and] a great policy worldwide.”

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    jothki wrote: »
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

    That reminds me, can we get a clarification on the "no speculating about Trump being killed" policy? Does it apply only to violent deaths, or are we also banned from gleefully speculating about whether the stress of the job and dealing with protests will kill him?

    Sorry, I can remove that part of my post, I only said that in reference to the current discussion that popped up because of Tillerson and fatigue, and how someone pointed out this administration is among the oldest and least healthy.

    I wasn't specifically trying to get on a "zomg trump is gonna die" thing. :(

    If Thurgood Marshall, among others, is indicative of anything, it's that hate is just as life prolonging as health. :rotate:

    You don't know the powaaaaa of the Dark Side.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    So, in some meat, the press conference was about Merkel arguing for refugees and Trump talking about how jobs are coming back to the US:
    German Chancellor Angela Merkel stressed her commitment to refugees during a press conference held after her meeting with President Donald Trump, who has actively fought to keep Syrian refugees out of the U.S. He totally dodged the topic in his response.

    “Immigration has to be worked on, but this has to be done by looking at refugees as well,” she said.

    Helping countries in need is a priority, she added, and accepting refugees is “the right way of going about it and that’s obviously what we have an exchange of views about.”

    Trump completely ignored Merkel’s comments, returning instead to a point he stressed previously: Trade needs to be reformed in order to be more favorable to U.S. interests.

    “There are many plants and factories coming back to the United States,” he said. “We will have a different policy but it’s going to be a great policy for the United States [and] a great policy worldwide.”

    I wonder what corporate law and tax policy is like in Germany.

    I'd probably need to be hospitalized from laughing if Merkel or another leader took Trump completely dodging the topic, like this, as an opportunity to say "speaking of jobs, have any of your American companies looked at Germany? We won't deport your employees!"

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Far be it for me to claim expertise on the German Chanelor, but I can't imagine her as being the sort that would suffer trump or his none too subtle threats easily.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    She's used to dealing with Putin and Trump is like... well he's not even Mussolini to Putin's Hitler

    he's fuckin Right Wing Peter Griffin

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus My baby, please show you to me fast. Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Just pointing to public reports? Says who? What does that even meeeaaaaan?

    1) They make unsupported claims.
    2) Media publishes unsupported claims.
    3) They point to reports of their unsupported claims as evidence that others are saying the same thing they said.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Pokemon Champion (retired) Ann ArborRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Just pointing to public reports? Says who? What does that even meeeaaaaan?

    1) They make unsupported claims.
    2) Media publishes unsupported claims.
    3) They point to reports of their unsupported claims as evidence that others are saying the same thing they said.

    Step 0) is right wing media makes shit up.

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  • Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    I just read this: https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/03/17/trump-welcomes-germanys-merkel-to-white-house-their-first-face-to-face-meeting.html

    I can't believe that Trump doesn't even understand how NATO works. He thinks that the other countries pay 2% of their GDP to NATO. Like, they pay cash to be in the club. :rotate:

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Needs to be the first question at the next briefing. "It's been reported that you apologized, personally, to Sir Grant over the unfounded, untrue claim you made about President Obama using GCHQ to spy on Trump. Are you prepared to extend an apology to President Obama and the American people for misleading them?"

    No, you ask him if it's true that he apologized personally to the UK. Just make him say it cause you how he's gonna blow a gasget rather then admit that kind of thing.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    What happens in the video?

    Instead of empty talk about St Patrick, he points out he was an immigrant, how the Irish have been notable immigrants to the US, and how the US has always been a beacon of hope for people looking for a new start, or a safe place, in the past.

    Massively paraphrasing, obviously. It's only under 2m long; definitely worth just watching.

    He gave Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric a verbal middle finger while Trump had to stand there.

    I'll give him a 7/10 for hitting the obvious targets, although he missed the potential finisher of getting up there and quoting what so many Americans (who were primarily German, Dutch and English white people at the time) said about the Irish and Italians. Which is pretty much exactly what Trump and his supporters say about Muslim migrants. they were declared to be the hated other. Their religion (catholicism) was mocked and a source of mainstream disgust. It was proposed that they could never accept, or contribute to American values. Their community spirit, different culture and desire to hold to that culture was held as an example of all that was bad about them.

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  • WaffenWaffen Village Idiot Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Needs to be the first question at the next briefing. "It's been reported that you apologized, personally, to Sir Grant over the unfounded, untrue claim you made about President Obama using GCHQ to spy on Trump. Are you prepared to extend an apology to President Obama and the American people for misleading them?"

    No, you ask him if it's true that he apologized personally to the UK. Just make him say it cause you how he's gonna blow a gasget rather then admit that kind of thing.

    CNN is reporting that Spicer already came out and said that it wasn't true.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus My baby, please show you to me fast. Registered User regular
    Waffen wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Needs to be the first question at the next briefing. "It's been reported that you apologized, personally, to Sir Grant over the unfounded, untrue claim you made about President Obama using GCHQ to spy on Trump. Are you prepared to extend an apology to President Obama and the American people for misleading them?"

    No, you ask him if it's true that he apologized personally to the UK. Just make him say it cause you how he's gonna blow a gasget rather then admit that kind of thing.

    CNN is reporting that Spicer already came out and said that it wasn't true.

    To be fair, Spicer says a lot of things.

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie This is NOT normalRegistered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    Was Trump ignoring Merkel or could he not hear her? I honestly can't tell because he has that same stupid look on his face he always has.

    He won't even make eye contact with her, so I'm leaning towards ignoring her.

    AFAIK they had a private meeting beforehand.

    My secret hope is that Merkel put him in his fucking place, and that he will be seething about it until the day he dies.

    Which based on how apparently surprisingly tiring running the executive branch of the most powerful nation on earth is, might not be super far off.

    Seriously, did no one in the Trump admin or campaign notice that every fucking president in photographic history has left office looking like Palpatine (EDIT: relative to how they looked going in at least), not clue them into the fact that it was, possibly, a pretty stressful job?

    This assumes the person was making an effort.

    Even if his entire body was focused solely on the question of "Why doesn't everyone just love me already", it would still be utterly exhausting.

    Plus, I believe, stress from negativity is substantially more aging and harmful than stress from things you either enjoy or are minimally fulfilling.
    Kana wrote: »
    Trump's day of no one liking him is only getting more awkward



    Good on the Irish PM

    Damn hell. Dude doesn't need a "good on ya", he's got testicles you could see from the space station. Mortal praise probably means nothing. I know nothing about the guy, but to stand in front of the literal face of modern hate and bigotry, and give him the finger, good lord. That's epic, end of Love Actually wet dream levels of give-no-fucks.

    I do know this guy and I'm sort of shocked with how things went. Just before he left for the States he held a press conference in which he tried to pull back on some fairly sharp comments he'd made when Trump was campaigning. He'd said during the campaign that Trump's language was "racist and dangerous", and the press conference was him going super-pedantic and saying just because someone's language is racist and dangerous doesn't mean they are and that he said those things where Trump was a candidate and not President which I think was supposed to mean it doesn't count but fuck only knows.

    Anyway, I was very pissed off with him and gave him enormous stick over it in the Hiberno-Brittanic politics thread.

    Then he turns around and does this.

    So... Yeah. Shocked. I don't know if he had a sudden attack of conscience or if someone talked sense into him or if he got some of the many MANY angry messages from us or if (he's probably going to be stepping down very soon) he just didn't want his last official visit somewhere to involve nothing but sucking up to a demagogue.

    Anyway, nice job Taoiseach! I still would have preferred cancelling the visit in the first place, but I suppose it was good that Kenny got to sit down with Trump and explain all the bits about Brexit that May left out. Though fuck knows how much sank into Trump's brain.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    She's used to dealing with Putin and Trump is like... well he's not even Mussolini to Putin's Hitler

    he's fuckin Right Wing Peter Griffin

    Merkel was politically interested during GDR times (which was never easy) and basically outplayed some of the most cunning people in German politics to get into power.

    There's a pretty good 2000ish portrait of her in German that explains her motivations pretty well. Mostly, she wanted to get into power to try and do things better than current politicians, not just actions, but also form.. I think she likes it when things are in order.

    Hopefully she sees Trump as a challenge to overcome, because deeply motivated Angie can be a pretty damn strong force.


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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    I just read this: https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/03/17/trump-welcomes-germanys-merkel-to-white-house-their-first-face-to-face-meeting.html

    I can't believe that Trump doesn't even understand how NATO works. He thinks that the other countries pay 2% of their GDP to NATO. Like, they pay cash to be in the club. :rotate:

    You can probably shut down a few nuclear plants by harnessing the energy of all the eye rolling Merkel must be doing.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Also notice how none of the weakly teased WikiLeaks shit about Merkel happened. I think she's way too careful to ever even say anything that wasn't calculated

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  • djmitchelladjmitchella Registered User regular
    In further US-Ireland news:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39261330
    Is this the 'worst pint of Guinness imaginable'?

    Speaker of the House Paul Ryan lifted a pint of Guinness at the annual Friends of Ireland luncheon in Washington, DC. But the symbolic act may have backfired due to the look of the beer in the glass.

    "First Mike Pence says 'top of the morning', then Paul Ryan holds up this appalling pint, grave missteps by the US," wrote Irish journalist Naomi O'Leary.

    The toast came at the end of a speech on Ryan's Irish roots. "Ireland may be a small island, but look at all she has given us. Her light floods the world. To America, she is, as General Washington himself said, 'friend of my country in my country's most friendless day.' "

    Ryan raised the glass - with a thin layer of foam inches away from the top of the rim - as a gestures of friendship during the annual luncheon, which has occurred since 1983. US President Donald Trump and Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny were also in attendance.

    "To what our forefathers have started, and our children will continue. May the light always shine upon them. Slainte," he said. On Twitter, pint purists ignored his warm words, and instead focused on his poor pour.

    "In a subtle yet cavalier act of diplomacy, Enda has given Paul Ryan the worst pint of Guinness imaginable," wrote Irishman Conor O'Neill.

    "Just how long has that pint been sat there? I can barely look..." wrote Neil Wilson, campaigns director for Conservatives for Liberty.

    "The tremendous amount of real estate at the top of that pint, probably pulled an hour before," lamented Boston-based music critic Emily Reily.

    And some couldn't help draw comparisons to the frothy pint Barack Obama enjoyed on a trip to Ireland in 2011.
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    As if he already didn't disgust me enough.

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  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    This is what a state department is good for, yes?

    Among other things, telling you how to not embarrass yourself internationally.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Label wrote: »
    This is what a state department is good for, yes?

    Among other things, telling you how to not embarrass yourself internationally.

    That and threatening North Korea.

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  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited March 18
    Elldren wrote: »
    Gundi wrote: »
    My two big worries with North Korea if we actually do take military action against North Korean military sites are:
    1. Bad things happening to South Koreans in a retaliatory strike. I am not 100% clear on exactly how effective that new missile defense system will be against North Korean missiles, and North Korea did recently show it had access to incredibly deadly chemical weapons that it could definitely try to use in South Korean urban centers.
    2. Bad things happening to North Koreans in a retaliatory-retaliatory strike and the likely civil war/anarchy that occurs in the vacuum of the current state. Because in case folks haven't learned, things can always get worse.

    A distant third would be China deciding to pick a fight over it, but with how North Korea's been acting I honestly don't think they would so long as we didn't try to put troops on the ground.

    If there is any sort of nuclear retaliation the whole thing goes really bad really fast. An ICBM aimed at Pyongyang is difficult to distinguish from one aimed at Beijing. And NK shares borders with both China and Russia.

    You wouldn't need strictly nuclear retaliation to cripple North Korea's nuclear development program. But I mean it still carries huge risks regardless.

    edit: I also like that version of the Irish PM's speech because it includes Trump's reaction unlike the previous one. He starts to seethe.

    Gundi on
  • Anarchy Rules!Anarchy Rules! Registered User regular
    The whole GCHQ nonsense has been pretty big news in the UK, moreso than most other Trumpian scandals.

    Basically the take home message is that our closest ally is doesn't trust or would rather save face than apologise to us

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  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
    edited March 18
    JoeUser on
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  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    As if he already didn't disgust me enough.

    Guinness is gross, but I at least appreciate the artistry in pouring a good pint of the stuff. Even as a non-drinker, getting that shit wrong is sacrilege.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Trump continues to demand Germany pay the protection scheme or else.
    Trump wrote:
    Despite what you have heard from the FAKE NEWS, I had a GREAT meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Nevertheless, Germany owes.....

    ...vast sums of money to NATO & the United States must be paid more for the powerful, and very expensive, defense it provides to Germany!
    Trump previously said countries should pay literally all the costs or more for US military activities in foreign countries so it is at least consistent.

    Trump is still clueless about the 2% and thinks it is supposed to be payed to NATO instead of being a non-required target for German spending on its own military.

    Gnome-InterruptusElldren
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Wow, he actually doesn't know. The Grownup Party of Fiscal Seriousness, ladies and gentlemen.

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    I'll admit that I didn't know that, either. Mostly because it wasn't really something I needed to pay attention to. Also, because I wasn't running for president bitching about it.

    __________ doesn't understand force projection.
    It really comes back to this.

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  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Trump is meeting with Merkel now. This is fromm a Buzzfeed editor. Why does Trump look so mad?


    I legitimately have been wondering if Trump genuinely could not hear. He already appears to have poor eyesight that he's not even mitigating with contacts and even healthy 70 year olds (which Trump is not) have a 2/3 chance of hearing loss. If this is the case, that's one more thing to add to the worries about Trump having/developing dementia because hearing loss is strongly linked to dementia: generally the more loss the more and faster the brain goes. It's hard to say what the linkage is, if it's direct because the brain isn't getting enough stimulation from sound, or indirect because loss of hearing interferes with communication and socialization (something that Trump doesn't seem good at anyway) and that loss of stimulation leads to the brain rotting, or if it's possibly even backwards where the brain is already declining in function and so is getting worse at processing sound and manifests as hearing loss, or maybe some combo of all.

    So, if he can't hear, it might be just as bad if not worse long term for the US/world than if he's simply being a petulant man child. Though, could always be both.

    ShadowhopeUnlucky
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I'm honestly kind of amazed that trump has double backed (triple? quadruple? hard to tell at this point) his position on NATO and his support for it, because I gotta tell you that nothing will kill it faster then expecting the other constituent members to pay a roman style tribute.

    Beyond that though, the fact of the matter is that NATO gives a shit ton of soft power to the US throughout europe, and pissing it away on a half baked protection scheme is like bending over a 5 to pick up a wooden penny.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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