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Foreign Policy in the Age of Trump

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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    This is maybe slightly peripheral to foreign policy, but there's some overlap. Kevin Drum assembled a list of all the internal leaks out of the white house.
    it occurred to me yesterday that we needed a record of the never-ending flow of leaks from the White House (and elsewhere) that are seemingly designed to show what an idiot Donald Trump is. Leaks, of course, are common, but leaks designed to embarrass the president aren't. Especially in the first month of a new administration.
    blog_trump_leaks.jpg

    This is horrifying, and i hope it continues, as its better to know it so we can deal with it, then allow this shit to continue to happen in the dark.

  • Options
    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Wasn't there speculation at some point that Trump would be harder on Saudi Arabia?

    There was speculation at some point that would put him on both sides of everything.

  • Options
    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    This is maybe slightly peripheral to foreign policy, but there's some overlap. Kevin Drum assembled a list of all the internal leaks out of the white house.
    it occurred to me yesterday that we needed a record of the never-ending flow of leaks from the White House (and elsewhere) that are seemingly designed to show what an idiot Donald Trump is. Leaks, of course, are common, but leaks designed to embarrass the president aren't. Especially in the first month of a new administration.
    blog_trump_leaks.jpg

    This is horrifying, and i hope it continues, as its better to know it so we can deal with it, then allow this shit to continue to happen in the dark.
    I'm skeptical they're all true, because seriously who is outwardly loyal enough to have access to Trump but also talks to the press every damn day?

  • Options
    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    This is maybe slightly peripheral to foreign policy, but there's some overlap. Kevin Drum assembled a list of all the internal leaks out of the white house.
    it occurred to me yesterday that we needed a record of the never-ending flow of leaks from the White House (and elsewhere) that are seemingly designed to show what an idiot Donald Trump is. Leaks, of course, are common, but leaks designed to embarrass the president aren't. Especially in the first month of a new administration.
    blog_trump_leaks.jpg

    This is horrifying, and i hope it continues, as its better to know it so we can deal with it, then allow this shit to continue to happen in the dark.
    I'm skeptical they're all true, because seriously who is outwardly loyal enough to have access to Trump but also talks to the press every damn day?

    He's the President. Every meeting probably has a dozen members of staff present just because.

  • Options
    MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    This is maybe slightly peripheral to foreign policy, but there's some overlap. Kevin Drum assembled a list of all the internal leaks out of the white house.
    it occurred to me yesterday that we needed a record of the never-ending flow of leaks from the White House (and elsewhere) that are seemingly designed to show what an idiot Donald Trump is. Leaks, of course, are common, but leaks designed to embarrass the president aren't. Especially in the first month of a new administration.
    blog_trump_leaks.jpg

    This is horrifying, and i hope it continues, as its better to know it so we can deal with it, then allow this shit to continue to happen in the dark.
    I'm skeptical they're all true, because seriously who is outwardly loyal enough to have access to Trump but also talks to the press every damn day?

    Most of them?

    All of them?

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • Options
    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Kana wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Six wrote: »
    I'm a little surprised that articles about Trump backing down on One China aren't positioning it as Trump losing his first significant pissing contest with China.

    Significant for who? Americans? Yeah right.

    Yeah, Trump embarrassed himself on the one china policy. He proclaimed a change in policy, and then one phone call with Xi Jinping and he was publicly begging China to take him back. Once again he brags that he's a great negotiator, yet he got nothing from China and publicly lost credibility that he'll stand behind his policy declarations in the future. It does reveal Trump's true character - he lacks even the convictions of a warmonger, he's just a loudmouth.

    Of course, the One China Policy is generally in America's interest, and is also basically meaningless because our agreements are very carefully crafted to not actually mention *which* government we believe should be in charge of a combined China, it's just a bit of polite international fiction.

    Luckily for Trump, most Americans have even less understanding of the One China Policy than they do of TPP, so nobody in America really cares.

    No lie, I don't even know what any US President could change about the One China Policy. It's like the non-policy to end all policies. It doesn't really say anything substantive of meaningful; it's just a prerequisite for diplomatic relations with the PRC. It's like if someone asked you if you liked cake or pie more, and your answer was that you like one of them. The substantive PRC/ROC foreign policy is outlined in other policies, such as the Taiwan Relations Act.

    It's unclear to me what any American could find problematic about it, and what it could possibly be changed to that would be meaningful in any way: I guess the US could say there are TWO Chinas and fully come out for Taiwanese independence? But why?

    hippofant on
  • Options
    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    This is maybe slightly peripheral to foreign policy, but there's some overlap. Kevin Drum assembled a list of all the internal leaks out of the white house.
    it occurred to me yesterday that we needed a record of the never-ending flow of leaks from the White House (and elsewhere) that are seemingly designed to show what an idiot Donald Trump is. Leaks, of course, are common, but leaks designed to embarrass the president aren't. Especially in the first month of a new administration.
    blog_trump_leaks.jpg

    This is horrifying, and i hope it continues, as its better to know it so we can deal with it, then allow this shit to continue to happen in the dark.
    I'm skeptical they're all true, because seriously who is outwardly loyal enough to have access to Trump but also talks to the press every damn day?

    Every Republican staffer? Every Republican period?

    Like, the GOP back Trump because they are too cowardly to oppose him. That doesn't mean they like him.

  • Options
    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    If the boss is shit, workers are often willing to throw the boss under a bus as a way to protect their asses from blame from others for his decisions

    Couscous on
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    KanaKana Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    Kana wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Six wrote: »
    I'm a little surprised that articles about Trump backing down on One China aren't positioning it as Trump losing his first significant pissing contest with China.

    Significant for who? Americans? Yeah right.

    Yeah, Trump embarrassed himself on the one china policy. He proclaimed a change in policy, and then one phone call with Xi Jinping and he was publicly begging China to take him back. Once again he brags that he's a great negotiator, yet he got nothing from China and publicly lost credibility that he'll stand behind his policy declarations in the future. It does reveal Trump's true character - he lacks even the convictions of a warmonger, he's just a loudmouth.

    Of course, the One China Policy is generally in America's interest, and is also basically meaningless because our agreements are very carefully crafted to not actually mention *which* government we believe should be in charge of a combined China, it's just a bit of polite international fiction.

    Luckily for Trump, most Americans have even less understanding of the One China Policy than they do of TPP, so nobody in America really cares.

    No lie, I don't even know what any US President could change about the One China Policy. It's like the non-policy to end all policies. It doesn't really say anything substantive of meaningful; it's just a prerequisite for diplomatic relations with the PRC. It's like if someone asked you if you liked cake or pie more, and your answer was that you like one of them. The substantive PRC/ROC foreign policy is outlined in other policies, such as the Taiwan Relations Act.

    It's unclear to me what any American could find problematic about it, and what it could possibly be changed to that would be meaningful in any way: I guess the US could say there are TWO Chinas and fully come out for Taiwanese independence? But why?

    There's a perfectly sound argument that there plainly are two Chinas, that there doesn't seem to be any reason for that to change, that Taiwan was never more than a Chinese frontier and that it doesn't really have that much in common with the mainland, and also that quite obviously the GMD is never regaining control of the mainland so the one-china policy isn't in Taiwan's interest either. One China is politically useful but also kind of nonsense, that's one thing that Trump wasn't actually wrong about.

    It's just... Why bother officially changing the policy, when we effectively already have a policy of Taiwanese independence? We're not going to allow China to seize Taiwan, the longer Taiwanese independence lasts the even less likely such a thing becomes and the more distinct the two countries grow, and official recognition of Taiwan doesn't actually really do much to our daily with either country. All a change in official policy would do is to take face away from China, which they will have to find some way to retaliate over. And America gains nothing from it.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • Options
    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Indeed, while many Republican staffers may be cruel people who lack empathy, many of them are probably very smart. Trump is quite clearly surrounded by people who are overwhelmingly smarter and more capable than him, but these people are also cruel and self serving. I imagine the place is a nightmare of backstabbing and hate, probably filled with even more anti trump rhetoric than these forums behind closed doors.

    These people know that if they just destroy the appearance of fairness in democracy then the economy will collapse and society will follow and all their political contacts and degrees in economic psycology won't be worth a bag of beans. They want to turn the heat up slowly, and say all the right things that no-one realizes what is happening. Keep society producing as if it was a free democracy, with the people believing they have a say, while in fact all power rests with people like them. Trump isn't doing that, and it's going to create a nightmare for them.

    Either Democrats will succesfully backlash at the polls, and they will lose power for decades, or they wont and the US will see productivity and knowledge economy growth collapse to Russian levels.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • Options
    Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Does the fact that Trump is holding a rally in a foreign country strike anyone else as really fucked up

    like what

    how is that appropriate?

    I'm just imagining him doing that here in Canada and to put it lightly, I would be extremely pissed*

    *or; the Canadian equivalent:

    GJskk.jpg

    Al_wat on
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    PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Al_wat wrote: »
    Does the fact that Trump is holding a rally in a foreign country strike anyone else as really fucked up

    like what

    how is that appropriate?

    I'm just imagining him doing that here in Canada and to put it lightly, I would be extremely pissed

    He's your president, too. Fakenews.

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    Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    A scary part of that NYT article was that Mattis was seriously considering interdicting an Iranian ship in international waters to check for contraband weapons bound for Yemen.

    Easy to forget that the "reasonable" part of the Trump administration was removed from command by Obama for being too hawkish on Iran.

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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    I hadn't heard that first February 7 leak yet

    That sounds like an actual SNL skit

    I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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    LabelLabel Registered User regular
    kedinik wrote: »
    I hadn't heard that first February 7 leak yet

    That sounds like an actual SNL skit

    Would that rule it out? We're pretty well past the boundaries of all sense and reason, here.

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    DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    And while Mr. Obama liked policy option papers that were three to six single-spaced pages, council staff members are now being told to keep papers to a single page, with lots of graphics and maps.

    “The president likes maps,” one official said.

    That is some straight North Korea shit.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Everybody at the National Security Council is paranoid for good reason right now and foreign policy is being molded around Trump's tweets.

    https://nytimes.com/2017/02/12/us/politics/national-security-council-turmoil.html
    WASHINGTON — These are chaotic and anxious days inside the National Security Council, the traditional center of management for a president’s dealings with an uncertain world.

    Three weeks into the Trump administration, council staff members get up in the morning, read President Trump’s Twitter posts and struggle to make policy to fit them. Most are kept in the dark about what Mr. Trump tells foreign leaders in his phone calls. Some staff members have turned to encrypted communications to talk with their colleagues, after hearing that Mr. Trump’s top advisers are considering an “insider threat” program that could result in monitoring cellphones and emails for leaks.
    New Trump appointees are carrying coffee mugs with that Trump campaign slogan into meetings with foreign counterparts, one staff member said. And Mr. [Stephen] Miller was once allowed to act as chairman of a weekend meeting of the national security deputies, stunning career officials.
    Last week, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis was exploring whether the Navy could intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen. The potential interdiction seemed in keeping with recent instructions from Mr. Trump, reinforced in meetings with Mr. Mattis and Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson, to crack down on Iran’s support of terrorism.

    But the ship was in international waters in the Arabian Sea, according to two officials. Mr. Mattis ultimately decided to set the operation aside, at least for now. White House officials said that was because news of the impending operation leaked, a threat to security that has helped fuel the move for the insider threat program. But others doubt whether there was enough basis in international law, and wondered what would happen if, in the early days of an administration that has already seen one botched military action in Yemen, American forces were suddenly in a firefight with the Iranian Navy.
    And while Mr. Obama liked policy option papers that were three to six single-spaced pages, council staff members are now being told to keep papers to a single page, with lots of graphics and maps.

    “The president likes maps,” one official said.

    Two people with direct access to the White House leadership said Mr. Flynn was surprised to learn that the State Department and Congress play a pivotal role in foreign arms sales and technology transfers. So it was a rude discovery that Mr. Trump could not simply order the Pentagon to send more weapons to Saudi Arabia — which is clamoring to have an Obama administration ban on the sale of cluster bombs and precision-guided weapons lifted — or to deliver bigger weapons packages to the United Arab Emirates

    There is a surprisingly decent chance they are going to accidentally start a war with Iran and no good is going to come of a bunch of Trump fans like Stephen Miller creating foreign policy.

    Wasn't there speculation at some point that Trump would be harder on Saudi Arabia?

    Why am I not surprised that trump would rather look at pictures then read words.

  • Options
    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Everybody at the National Security Council is paranoid for good reason right now and foreign policy is being molded around Trump's tweets.

    https://nytimes.com/2017/02/12/us/politics/national-security-council-turmoil.html
    WASHINGTON — These are chaotic and anxious days inside the National Security Council, the traditional center of management for a president’s dealings with an uncertain world.

    Three weeks into the Trump administration, council staff members get up in the morning, read President Trump’s Twitter posts and struggle to make policy to fit them. Most are kept in the dark about what Mr. Trump tells foreign leaders in his phone calls. Some staff members have turned to encrypted communications to talk with their colleagues, after hearing that Mr. Trump’s top advisers are considering an “insider threat” program that could result in monitoring cellphones and emails for leaks.
    New Trump appointees are carrying coffee mugs with that Trump campaign slogan into meetings with foreign counterparts, one staff member said. And Mr. [Stephen] Miller was once allowed to act as chairman of a weekend meeting of the national security deputies, stunning career officials.
    Last week, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis was exploring whether the Navy could intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen. The potential interdiction seemed in keeping with recent instructions from Mr. Trump, reinforced in meetings with Mr. Mattis and Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson, to crack down on Iran’s support of terrorism.

    But the ship was in international waters in the Arabian Sea, according to two officials. Mr. Mattis ultimately decided to set the operation aside, at least for now. White House officials said that was because news of the impending operation leaked, a threat to security that has helped fuel the move for the insider threat program. But others doubt whether there was enough basis in international law, and wondered what would happen if, in the early days of an administration that has already seen one botched military action in Yemen, American forces were suddenly in a firefight with the Iranian Navy.
    And while Mr. Obama liked policy option papers that were three to six single-spaced pages, council staff members are now being told to keep papers to a single page, with lots of graphics and maps.

    “The president likes maps,” one official said.

    Two people with direct access to the White House leadership said Mr. Flynn was surprised to learn that the State Department and Congress play a pivotal role in foreign arms sales and technology transfers. So it was a rude discovery that Mr. Trump could not simply order the Pentagon to send more weapons to Saudi Arabia — which is clamoring to have an Obama administration ban on the sale of cluster bombs and precision-guided weapons lifted — or to deliver bigger weapons packages to the United Arab Emirates

    There is a surprisingly decent chance they are going to accidentally start a war with Iran and no good is going to come of a bunch of Trump fans like Stephen Miller creating foreign policy.

    Wasn't there speculation at some point that Trump would be harder on Saudi Arabia?

    Why am I not surprised that trump would rather look at pictures then read words.

    Because they kind of look like the things in his colouring books? Though he probably needs supervision to work with crayons.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    "If you sit down and listen to the whole briefing, you can have two pudding cups later."


    hahahaohgod

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    OghulkOghulk Tinychat Janitor TinychatRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Oghulk on
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    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Jesus fucking christ

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    It's okay. They're not poors, so they can be trusted.

    ztrEPtD.gif
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    OghulkOghulk Tinychat Janitor TinychatRegistered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    It's okay. They're not poors, so they can be trusted.

    Except all the waiters and what not who were around.

    100 bucks says a paperless immigrant got to look at classified information.

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    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    This presidency is a bad joke.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Trump's table is in the center. Of course.
    LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME FEEEEEED ME I NEED IT

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    CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Jesus fucking christ

    Surely Abe knows better than this, so WTF?

  • Options
    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Jesus fucking christ

    Surely Abe knows better than this, so WTF?

    He is a guest, it would be impolite.

  • Options
    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    Abe honors war criminals, he's not gonna let a little thing like massive security breaches bother him.

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
  • Options
    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Jesus fucking christ

    Surely Abe knows better than this, so WTF?

    Not up to him, he can sit back and lol at the absurdity of this fool he has to deal with now

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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    So President Trump's rally in the U.K. is different from candidate Obama's rally in Germany because...

    One of them was only a Senator at the time?
    One of them was free?
    One of them is liked by us?

    I'll agree, the Trump one seems off to me. But everything he does seems off. If he'd announce a plan to give puppies and ice cream to everyone, I'd probably assume the people he hates most that day are allergic and lactose intolerant. When the Obama thing comes up as an argument, what's the proper counter?

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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular

    so thisis clearly fucking weird because he's posing and it's awkward but it's an insanely perfect picture with him still and them swarming. him, not a care in the world, smiling for the camera, with bannon and flynn and a foreign leader swirling behind it

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Can we not quote that any further

    That picture makes me fucking rage

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    It's okay. They're not poors, so they can be trusted.

    Except all the waiters and what not who were around.

    100 bucks says a paperless immigrant got to look at classified information.

    Yeah, just ask Romney how treating the help as invisible and without opinions works out.

  • Options
    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Jesus fucking christ

    Surely Abe knows better than this, so WTF?

    Why would he care? He represents Japan, not the US. To him, this is a goddamn goldmine of information to file away in his head.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    It's okay. They're not poors, so they can be trusted.

    Except all the waiters and what not who were around.

    100 bucks says a paperless immigrant got to look at classified information.

    Yeah, just ask Romney how treating the help as invisible and without opinions works out.

    This explains all the WH staff leaks, too.

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    OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    I think the aristocracy has forgotten they're speaking the same language as the servants, so no, in fact they can't make their plans while being served while still being in complete secrecy.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    I think the aristocracy has forgotten they're speaking the same language as the servants, so no, in fact they can't make their plans while being served while still being in complete secrecy.

    Well, Abe's people aren't. Probably.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Calica wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Oghulk wrote: »
    So CNN has a story about Trump's first real international issue occurring while with Shinzo Abe.

    This part in the story makes me fucking infuriated

    YgWaqAW.png

    But hey, at least he didn't have a private email server OH WAIT

    Jesus fucking christ

    Surely Abe knows better than this, so WTF?

    I think Abe's getting a kick out of this knowing that the nuclear fireball of utter idiocy is thousands of miles from his shores

    override367 on
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    CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    I guess I thought they'd be talking about stuff that Abe might not want overheard either.

This discussion has been closed.