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[Legion] on FX: Season 2 is finished - beware open spoilers

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Posts

  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    My take is that this was absolutely a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    David is damaged, but he has things that keep him tied to the world and the people in it. Syd is foremost among those things. His connection to her helps keep him sane and centered. Notice the first thing the Shadowking did was to separate David from Syd in the desert. That was essential, and that caused the destructive spiral David got caught in.

    Ultimately, their efforts to prevent David The World Ender is what created him. Their efforts knocked away his supports, cut the lines that tied him to sanity and stability. They created their monster.

    That's my read on it.

    Frankiedarling on
    CptHamiltonWhiteZinfandel
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Sure but...
    ...that doesn't make David not the world eater. And that doesn't make him not dangerous. Moreover that kind of "betrayal" is going to happen to everyone at some point anyway. This is less a self fulfilling prophecy and more of a ticking time bomb where you don't know the timer. You either attempt to disarm it or it blows up. Failing to disarm it isn't worse than it just blowing up.

    To understand the logic of choosing Farouk think of him not as a evil person but as a nation. Say the US under Obama or Bush II. He doesn't have conventional morality. He will act towards his own best interests. Loads of people will die as a result and he will be unmoved. But he will still be a rational actor and if your interests align with him you will be able to work together. And you don't really have anything to worry about unless your interests are strictly opposed to his and you're swattable or if you're unwilling to defend yourself.

    David is the Russia under Putin. He will gobble everything up eventually if another power does not hem him in.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    For the record, I think
    All the mouse did was let Syd know what David did to her. He fucked with her mind because he was terrified that she didn’t love him any more, and then he date raped her. She was scared in that scene, and rightfully so. David crossed so many boundaries, personal and power-wise. She wanted to be alone, and this all powerful being showed up to tell her what they should do while she tried to figure out what was wrong with herself.

    Farouk being free threw me a bit, but I think David’s actions (witnessed by multiple people before Farouk short circuited his crown to minimally access his powers) convinced the team he needed to be dealt with. They didn’t want to kill David, they wanted to help, but if things went wrong the end of the world was on the line. The shadow king essentially gets brought in as an insurance policy. I don’t doubt he manipulated them, but less than many want to believe. He showed them the truth, even if it was to serve his own interests.

    They made David’s actions, no matter how vile, tragically understandable. My wife and I are starting a rewatch, and it’s heartbreaking. David really does put his entire concept of reality on to the need for Syd’s love. He loses that and he’s terrified, he doesn’t want to be lonely again, but he does something monstrous instead of facing reality.

    I love that the show’s crew had the guts and talent to take this direction and make it so tragic. I enjoyed every episode of this season, but the end result was truly something magnificent to behold, and it absolutely addressed every concern I had along the way.

    I’m still a little euphoric about things even a day later (we rewatched it tonight, even!), but I can’t emphasize enough how special I think this show is. It’s got my full faith moving forward.

    The reveal of the bolded really recontextualized:
    something that irked me about the Future Syd / David dynamic.

    When he tries to respect Syd's feelings by not cheating on her with Future Syd; and FS kind of blatantly disregards his half hearted protests and uses sex to persuade him in a very obvious manner. It seemed like clumsy writing.

    Thinking back on it: FS already knew that David's current reality hinged on one single fact:
    He only mattered because Syd loved him.

    She knew he was terrifying, but she also knew his romantic delusion gave her absolute power over him if she batted her eyes hard enough.

    And she knew that she wasn't doing past Syd any favors by respecting the sanctity of her relationship with a guy who was only a few days from outing himself as a monster.

    Reflecting on that scene now, it works really well.

    Random thing i liked this season:

    Metaphysical car mechanic scene.

    But it was all pretty great.

    If they wanted to "out" David as a "monster" they failed spectacularly. Everyone one of them is worse than David atm!

    There are two mass murdering, one likely one confirmed rapists on the show.

    One of them you are told is going to end the world and the other one your only likely check against that.

    Somehow you, the other characters are collectively worse then both of them.

    David is either unmoored from conventional morality due to his power like Farouk or doesn't even comprehend it well enough to know what he is doing due to mental illness. He is the problem.

    How many people has David actually killed without Farouk forcing him to?

    I have a complete set of the Venture Bros. Season 7 t-shirt club medium-size t-shirts for sale. PM me if you're interested.
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Sure but...
    ...that doesn't make David not the world eater. And that doesn't make him not dangerous. Moreover that kind of "betrayal" is going to happen to everyone at some point anyway. This is less a self fulfilling prophecy and more of a ticking time bomb where you don't know the timer. You either attempt to disarm it or it blows up. Failing to disarm it isn't worse than it just blowing up.

    To understand the logic of choosing Farouk think of him not as a evil person but as a nation. Say the US under Obama or Bush II. He doesn't have conventional morality. He will act towards his own best interests. Loads of people will die as a result and he will be unmoved. But he will still be a rational actor and if your interests align with him you will be able to work together. And you don't really have anything to worry about unless your interests are strictly opposed to his and you're swattable or if you're unwilling to defend yourself.

    David is the Russia under Putin. He will gobble everything up eventually if another power does not hem him in.
    I think you're overestimating the degree to which Farouk is reasonable, at least according to any conventional sort of reason. His actions are consistent with his own narrative but he's still both crazy and not exactly human; his narrative is not necessarily congruent to what others would consider objective reality. Dealing with him is essentially the same as dealing with David except that where David has mood swings and self-doubt, Farouk has self-assurance and impatience. They are maybe easier to deal with but are just as likely to result in him randomly murdering someone.

    Also, David wasn't previously a destructive monster. His use of his powers in the past we've seen and in most of the alternate timelines from that one episode were either defensive, offensive against Farouk specifically, or at the behest of the monster in his head. I'd really like to know what happened in the original timeline from which Future Syd hailed which caused him to turn because in this timeline it was absolutely Future Syd's intervention that lead to it happening. Without her David wouldn't have had the stressor of secretly trying to help Farouk and Farouk wouldn't have been able to turn present-Syd against him; not only because he wouldn't have had future knowledge to use but because the other things which Syd held against David (him 'leaving' and his secrets) are both at her feet.

    Presumably something set off David in the original timeline to cause him to go to the dark side. It seems like it would be a hell of a lot safer bet for Future Syd time-kidnapping herself or one of the other Division 3 members and 1) telling them where to find Farouk's body to destroy it right off the bat, and 2) getting them to sit David down once the immediate time-pressure of the race to the corpse was off and getting him to accept therapy for his actual issues. Maybe it wouldn't work but what are the odds that letting Farouk come out on top of the Farouk/David fight was going to end well?

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Sure but...
    ...that doesn't make David not the world eater. And that doesn't make him not dangerous. Moreover that kind of "betrayal" is going to happen to everyone at some point anyway. This is less a self fulfilling prophecy and more of a ticking time bomb where you don't know the timer. You either attempt to disarm it or it blows up. Failing to disarm it isn't worse than it just blowing up.

    To understand the logic of choosing Farouk think of him not as a evil person but as a nation. Say the US under Obama or Bush II. He doesn't have conventional morality. He will act towards his own best interests. Loads of people will die as a result and he will be unmoved. But he will still be a rational actor and if your interests align with him you will be able to work together. And you don't really have anything to worry about unless your interests are strictly opposed to his and you're swattable or if you're unwilling to defend yourself.

    David is the Russia under Putin. He will gobble everything up eventually if another power does not hem him in.

    Response:
    David has always been dangerous, and I'm not sure I like the "we need to get him before he gets us" idea. It's a legitimate way of dealing with David, but it also completely legitimizes David's reaction. I also hold that he was not so much a ticking time bomb as he was.... just a bomb. They believed him to be a ticking time bomb, and their attempts to disarm him are what started the countdown sequence...

    Also, we're trying to apply this logic in a world of Superheros. David is far from the only super-powered person. I don't think the "get him before he gets us" philosophy can be reasonably applied in such a world, because inevitably someone is going to *get* you. You being the world, because you poked the sleeping bear.

  • navgoosenavgoose Registered User regular
    Wait..

    In the timeline David destroys the world, SK is dead and presumably did not try to convert Syd. That whole sequence was predicated by SK knowing he is about to be killed by David if he doesn't get assistance.

    So in the original timeline it is a whole different set of events at a later time that set David off, but with SK gone he has no opposition.

    Maybe Syd breaks up with David on her own, etc.

  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    You have a whole episode about Syd telling David he needs to do what he needs to do to win.

    Then, when he does it Syd goes ballistic and acts betrayed.

    What?

    PSN: Canadian_llama
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    RedTide wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    For the record, I think
    All the mouse did was let Syd know what David did to her. He fucked with her mind because he was terrified that she didn’t love him any more, and then he date raped her. She was scared in that scene, and rightfully so. David crossed so many boundaries, personal and power-wise. She wanted to be alone, and this all powerful being showed up to tell her what they should do while she tried to figure out what was wrong with herself.

    Farouk being free threw me a bit, but I think David’s actions (witnessed by multiple people before Farouk short circuited his crown to minimally access his powers) convinced the team he needed to be dealt with. They didn’t want to kill David, they wanted to help, but if things went wrong the end of the world was on the line. The shadow king essentially gets brought in as an insurance policy. I don’t doubt he manipulated them, but less than many want to believe. He showed them the truth, even if it was to serve his own interests.

    They made David’s actions, no matter how vile, tragically understandable. My wife and I are starting a rewatch, and it’s heartbreaking. David really does put his entire concept of reality on to the need for Syd’s love. He loses that and he’s terrified, he doesn’t want to be lonely again, but he does something monstrous instead of facing reality.

    I love that the show’s crew had the guts and talent to take this direction and make it so tragic. I enjoyed every episode of this season, but the end result was truly something magnificent to behold, and it absolutely addressed every concern I had along the way.

    I’m still a little euphoric about things even a day later (we rewatched it tonight, even!), but I can’t emphasize enough how special I think this show is. It’s got my full faith moving forward.

    The reveal of the bolded really recontextualized:
    something that irked me about the Future Syd / David dynamic.

    When he tries to respect Syd's feelings by not cheating on her with Future Syd; and FS kind of blatantly disregards his half hearted protests and uses sex to persuade him in a very obvious manner. It seemed like clumsy writing.

    Thinking back on it: FS already knew that David's current reality hinged on one single fact:
    He only mattered because Syd loved him.

    She knew he was terrifying, but she also knew his romantic delusion gave her absolute power over him if she batted her eyes hard enough.

    And she knew that she wasn't doing past Syd any favors by respecting the sanctity of her relationship with a guy who was only a few days from outing himself as a monster.

    Reflecting on that scene now, it works really well.

    Random thing i liked this season:

    Metaphysical car mechanic scene.

    But it was all pretty great.

    If they wanted to "out" David as a "monster" they failed spectacularly. Everyone one of them is worse than David atm!

    There are two mass murdering, one likely one confirmed rapists on the show.

    One of them you are told is going to end the world and the other one your only likely check against that.

    Somehow you, the other characters are collectively worse then both of them.

    David is either unmoored from conventional morality due to his power like Farouk or doesn't even comprehend it well enough to know what he is doing due to mental illness. He is the problem.

    How many people has David actually killed without Farouk forcing him to?

    The point of S2 seemed to question to what extent he was really forced. Throughout S1, he slaughters people and seems to enjoy it. We assumed this was because the SK enjoyed it. S2 asks us: what if David just likes murdering people? He certainly appears to enjoy torture.

    As it stands, David is at best amoral and at worst a sadist, and he can possibly end the world with a thought.

    S3 could well recontextualize all this, but I think this is what they're asking us to consider.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    I don't know that amoral is the right word. He has some notions of morality and right or wrong but he lacks an ability to apply them consistently or with regard to his own actions. He's all over the board.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    I don't know that amoral is the right word. He has some notions of morality and right or wrong but he lacks an ability to apply them consistently or with regard to his own actions. He's all over the board.

    Or perhaps a sufficiently powerful psychic cannot experience moral consistency, as they will reflexively alter their perception of right and wrong as soon as it becomes an irritant on a subconscious level.

    You can force yourself to stop blinking, but not for very long

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Maybe amoral is the wrong word.

    I think he has a rudimentary understanding of the idea based on what people tell him, but I don't think he feels it at all. When someone tells him "you did this bad thing" he just fundamentally doesn't get it.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
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  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    For the record, I think
    All the mouse did was let Syd know what David did to her. He fucked with her mind because he was terrified that she didn’t love him any more, and then he date raped her. She was scared in that scene, and rightfully so. David crossed so many boundaries, personal and power-wise. She wanted to be alone, and this all powerful being showed up to tell her what they should do while she tried to figure out what was wrong with herself.

    Farouk being free threw me a bit, but I think David’s actions (witnessed by multiple people before Farouk short circuited his crown to minimally access his powers) convinced the team he needed to be dealt with. They didn’t want to kill David, they wanted to help, but if things went wrong the end of the world was on the line. The shadow king essentially gets brought in as an insurance policy. I don’t doubt he manipulated them, but less than many want to believe. He showed them the truth, even if it was to serve his own interests.

    They made David’s actions, no matter how vile, tragically understandable. My wife and I are starting a rewatch, and it’s heartbreaking. David really does put his entire concept of reality on to the need for Syd’s love. He loses that and he’s terrified, he doesn’t want to be lonely again, but he does something monstrous instead of facing reality.

    I love that the show’s crew had the guts and talent to take this direction and make it so tragic. I enjoyed every episode of this season, but the end result was truly something magnificent to behold, and it absolutely addressed every concern I had along the way.

    I’m still a little euphoric about things even a day later (we rewatched it tonight, even!), but I can’t emphasize enough how special I think this show is. It’s got my full faith moving forward.

    The reveal of the bolded really recontextualized:
    something that irked me about the Future Syd / David dynamic.

    When he tries to respect Syd's feelings by not cheating on her with Future Syd; and FS kind of blatantly disregards his half hearted protests and uses sex to persuade him in a very obvious manner. It seemed like clumsy writing.

    Thinking back on it: FS already knew that David's current reality hinged on one single fact:
    He only mattered because Syd loved him.

    She knew he was terrifying, but she also knew his romantic delusion gave her absolute power over him if she batted her eyes hard enough.

    And she knew that she wasn't doing past Syd any favors by respecting the sanctity of her relationship with a guy who was only a few days from outing himself as a monster.

    Reflecting on that scene now, it works really well.

    Random thing i liked this season:

    Metaphysical car mechanic scene.

    But it was all pretty great.

    If they wanted to "out" David as a "monster" they failed spectacularly. Everyone one of them is worse than David atm!

    There are two mass murdering, one likely one confirmed rapists on the show.

    One of them you are told is going to end the world and the other one your only likely check against that.

    Somehow you, the other characters are collectively worse then both of them.

    David is either unmoored from conventional morality due to his power like Farouk or doesn't even comprehend it well enough to know what he is doing due to mental illness. He is the problem.

    How many people has David actually killed without Farouk forcing him to?

    The point of S2 seemed to question to what extent he was really forced. Throughout S1, he slaughters people and seems to enjoy it. We assumed this was because the SK enjoyed it. S2 asks us: what if David just likes murdering people? He certainly appears to enjoy torture.

    As it stands, David is at best amoral and at worst a sadist, and he can possibly end the world with a thought.

    S3 could well recontextualize all this, but I think this is what they're asking us to consider.

    The Shadow King is also a lying bastard who we see using half truths mixed with lies to bring people over to his perspective. Perhaps he is not a valid source of information ?

    "Yeah, I was totally overriding David's consciousness and killing people using his body like a sock puppet.... but uh... he was totally cool with it."

  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    I’m hard pressed to come up with actual lies Farouk told to Syd. Truth in the worst possible light is how I thought of it.

    OneAngryPossum on
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    I’m hard pressed to come up with actual lies Farouk told to Syd. Truth in the worst possible light is how I thought of it.

    Lying can be done by omission. I'd say he showed Syd the worst possible things that happened devoid of any sort of context.... directly after violently abducting her with a goddamn fishing hook.

    I think we also can't rule out some bits of mind-fuckery going on. It's the shadowking. We saw what he did with the mouse. We know his MO. Why do we beleive he's suddenly not getting in people's heads?

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I think in general terms looking for an interpretation where David is innocent and it's all just a scheme by Farouk misses the point of the show a bit.

    OneAngryPossumArbitraryDescriptorDevlin_Dragonusmxmarks
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    I think in general terms looking for an interpretation where David is innocent and it's all just a scheme by Farouk misses the point of the show a bit.

    Possibly, but this show leaves a lot to the viewer. I don't think it's too far a stretch to say those final scenes did not paint the rest of the crew in the best light.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I think in general terms looking for an interpretation where David is innocent and it's all just a scheme by Farouk misses the point of the show a bit.

    Possibly, but this show leaves a lot to the viewer. I don't think it's too far a stretch to say those final scenes did not paint the rest of the crew in the best light.

    With the exception of Kerry/Cary, who is mostly just kind of a likable mcguffin generator, no, they didn't come out of it looking good but as Syd ventures earlier, maybe they're all villains.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    I think you're overestimating the degree to which Farouk is reasonable, at least according to any conventional sort of reason. His actions are consistent with his own narrative but he's still both crazy and not exactly human; his narrative is not necessarily congruent to what others would consider objective reality. Dealing with him is essentially the same as dealing with David except that where David has mood swings and self-doubt, Farouk has self-assurance and impatience. They are maybe easier to deal with but are just as likely to result in him randomly murdering someone.
    Neither are the actions of the United States. Dealing with him is still dealing. Dealing with David is not.

    Early on the David's mistakes were excused because the good guys thought he wasn't crazy. They thought that, if they brought him out and showed him how to use his powers he would be good. They succeeded in extracting the devil from him but David didn't turn out good. David turned out to still be crazy. Even before Farouk talking to them they had inklings. Clark was talking to the crew about it. Syd said that "David does not understand the difference between right and wrong"
    I think in general terms looking for an interpretation where David is innocent and it's all just a scheme by Farouk misses the point of the show a bit.

    Possibly, but this show leaves a lot to the viewer. I don't think it's too far a stretch to say those final scenes did not paint the rest of the crew in the best light.

    With the exception of Kerry/Cary, who is mostly just kind of a likable mcguffin generator, no, they didn't come out of it looking good but as Syd ventures earlier, maybe they're all villains.

    Clark comes out well.

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
    John C. Turbine
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Clark only gets partial credit. As a leadership holdover from old Division 3 its hard to argue that he holds a general view on mutants that would ever lead him to believe someone like David is a good person regardless of the facts.

    Remember, he was basically the captain of an anti-mutant Gestapo bad enough to force them into hiding and a guerrilla war.

    He's the soft bigot who happened to get his prejudice right this time.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    ArbitraryDescriptorDanHibiki
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Clark only gets partial credit. As a leadership holdover from old Division 3 its hard to argue that he holds a general view on mutants that would ever lead him to believe someone like David is a good person regardless of the facts.

    Remember, he was basically the captain of an anti-mutant Gestapo bad enough to force them into hiding and a guerrilla war.

    He's the soft bigot who happened to get his prejudice right this time.

    No. Clark worked hard to determine whether or not mutants were dangerous. The very first scene he is in he convinces his superiors to not kill David. He doesn't seem bigoted against Mutants at all.

    He would probably support a Mutant Registration Act. But like... that is a reasonable thing to support. I support gun registration acts and gun bans. And those are far less dangerous than mutants are.

    wbBv3fj.png
    Devlin_Dragonus
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Clark only gets partial credit. As a leadership holdover from old Division 3 its hard to argue that he holds a general view on mutants that would ever lead him to believe someone like David is a good person regardless of the facts.

    Remember, he was basically the captain of an anti-mutant Gestapo bad enough to force them into hiding and a guerrilla war.

    He's the soft bigot who happened to get his prejudice right this time.

    No. Clark worked hard to determine whether or not mutants were dangerous. The very first scene he is in he convinces his superiors to not kill David. He doesn't seem bigoted against Mutants at all.

    He would probably support a Mutant Registration Act. But like... that is a reasonable thing to support. I support gun registration acts and gun bans. And those are far less dangerous than mutants are.

    Guns aren't people. You can certainly argue he's less hard line than his immediate superior, but that doesn't weigh heavily against his pretty clear disregard for David's civil liberties during the entire encounter nor explain the mutants' view of Division 3.

    "I'm not bigoted, I'm just a leader in the enforcement wing of the bigot organization" doesn't hold much water.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Clark only gets partial credit. As a leadership holdover from old Division 3 its hard to argue that he holds a general view on mutants that would ever lead him to believe someone like David is a good person regardless of the facts.

    Remember, he was basically the captain of an anti-mutant Gestapo bad enough to force them into hiding and a guerrilla war.

    He's the soft bigot who happened to get his prejudice right this time.

    No. Clark worked hard to determine whether or not mutants were dangerous. The very first scene he is in he convinces his superiors to not kill David. He doesn't seem bigoted against Mutants at all.

    He would probably support a Mutant Registration Act. But like... that is a reasonable thing to support. I support gun registration acts and gun bans. And those are far less dangerous than mutants are.

    Guns aren't people. You can certainly argue he's less hard line than his immediate superior, but that doesn't weigh heavily against his pretty clear disregard for David's civil liberties during the entire encounter nor explain the mutants' view of Division 3.

    "I'm not bigoted, I'm just a leader in the enforcement wing of the bigot organization" doesn't hold much water.

    Guns aren't people but i am not sure why that matters. There are no people who are inherently more dangerous than others based on anything but their prior actions. There is no group of people for whom that applies. Racism and Bigotry are bad explicitly because X people aren't more dangerous than Y people.

    But some Mutants are really more dangerous than other people. Its not bigotry to want to know what is up with that and make it less dangerous.

    Like, if anyone has an actual claim of being discriminated against its Farouk.

    Edit: An example. I don't think people should have nukes. I don't think we can just ignore a person if they literally are a nuke just because they're a person. Problem: Some mutants really are nukes.

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Clark only gets partial credit. As a leadership holdover from old Division 3 its hard to argue that he holds a general view on mutants that would ever lead him to believe someone like David is a good person regardless of the facts.

    Remember, he was basically the captain of an anti-mutant Gestapo bad enough to force them into hiding and a guerrilla war.

    He's the soft bigot who happened to get his prejudice right this time.

    No. Clark worked hard to determine whether or not mutants were dangerous. The very first scene he is in he convinces his superiors to not kill David. He doesn't seem bigoted against Mutants at all.

    He would probably support a Mutant Registration Act. But like... that is a reasonable thing to support. I support gun registration acts and gun bans. And those are far less dangerous than mutants are.

    Guns aren't people. You can certainly argue he's less hard line than his immediate superior, but that doesn't weigh heavily against his pretty clear disregard for David's civil liberties during the entire encounter nor explain the mutants' view of Division 3.

    "I'm not bigoted, I'm just a leader in the enforcement wing of the bigot organization" doesn't hold much water.

    Guns aren't people but i am not sure why that matters. There are no people who are inherently more dangerous than others based on anything but their prior actions. There is no group of people for whom that applies. Racism and Bigotry are bad explicitly because X people aren't more dangerous than Y people.

    But some Mutants are really more dangerous than other people. Its not bigotry to want to know what is up with that and make it less dangerous.

    Like, if anyone has an actual claim of being discriminated against its Farouk.

    Edit: An example. I don't think people should have nukes. I don't think we can just ignore a person if they literally are a nuke just because they're a person. Problem: Some mutants really are nukes.

    It matters because you're, uh, comparing people to guns. I'm not really interested in like a general "is it ok to treat mutants differently that homo sapiens" debate, but its pretty clear that Clark isn't the morally clean slate you seem to imply, given, you know, basically the entire first season of the show.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    It does not matter because the issue is one of the damage they can do.

    And well it’s pretty clear that Clarck comes out looking pretty good

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I’m hard pressed to come up with actual lies Farouk told to Syd. Truth in the worst possible light is how I thought of it.

    Lying can be done by omission. I'd say he showed Syd the worst possible things that happened devoid of any sort of context.... directly after violently abducting her with a goddamn fishing hook.

    I think we also can't rule out some bits of mind-fuckery going on. It's the shadowking. We saw what he did with the mouse. We know his MO. Why do we beleive he's suddenly not getting in people's heads?

    I won't say this is impossible, but I will say that if it turns out David wasn't responsible for his actions for some reason, it would make for a far less interesting show.

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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    Go back to the first season and watch how David behaves when the Shadow King is temporarily under control. It’s honestly kind of frightening in hindsight. He’s cavalier about his powers, the threat he represents. He’s not murdering people but he’s making it very clear that he can and will if necessary.

    More importantly, he is smug as fuck. He loves this feeling of control and superiority, and he flaunts it as soon as he can. Syd is literally the only thing grounding him. That’s a hell of a risk for everybody, especially after he violates that bond.

    Edit: Again, I think David is in many respects a victim throughout his life. I don’t even think he’s a monster, just a lonely emotional adolescent that did a monstrous thing. But he has the capacity for much more horrible acts, and the last we saw of him he wasn’t walking the path of atonement.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    It does not matter because the issue is one of the damage they can do.

    And well it’s pretty clear that Clarck comes out looking pretty good

    Its gotta be kind of a boring show if you start from the perspective that Division 3 did nothing wrong.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    I guess Oliver is also a secret sociopath since it looked like he was enjoying himself durring the division raid

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  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The point of S2 seemed to question to what extent he was really forced. Throughout S1, he slaughters people and seems to enjoy it.
    Come again? David kills the people in Division 3 when he rescues his sister, but that's it. Early in the S1 finale he makes the leaning tower of D3 soldiers, but they're all clearly still alive and appear uninjured. Zero blood. Considering that was the start of his peace talk plan, I doubt he just left them to die of exposure or whatever.

    We know Farouk can take over a host so thoroughly they have no control. He does it multiple times in the Season 1 finale. First Syd, then he takes over Kerry so thoroughly that he forces her to hurt Cary(!) and Melanie, then he subjugates Oliver thoroughly enough to force him to immediately abandon his wife the moment after he remembers who she is. David is the only one who's shown the ability to mount any kind of resistance, but he was still losing the fight for his body in the S1 finale even with all the equipment and technological support he had.

    In episode four, David gets out of the Astral Plane with the help of Lenny. She says "if you just concentrate... or if... together, maybe." then they teleport out of there while both shouting with exertion. As they do so, David's face is superimposed with Lenny's and they both morph into the face of the Devil With Yellow Eyes. In the final seconds of that episode, Lenny is actually shown wrapping her hands around David, riding his back, and smiling. From that moment of David letting him in and accepting his help, Farouk gained a large degree of control. This is the precursor to David's trip to Division 3. He even starts wearing a yellow shirt the next time he changes clothes to correspond with the Devil.

    So, the Division 3 slaughter. Sure, he looked like he enjoyed it. So did Oliver, when he made his own invasion in season 2. Rewatch those scenes. David and Oliver act the same, with matching physical mannerisms of dancing around and waving their arms a certain way when disintegrating people. Why would they do that, unless Farouk was in the driver's seat both times? David even showed up on camera after the fact as the Devil With Yellow Eyes. Why would he choose to physically manifest that guise? Based on all those things and the fact that we only have Farouk's word (which is completely worthless) as counter evidence, I think it's ridiculous to lay any culpability at David's feet for season 1 killings.

    I don't want to take the time to go through season 2 and talk about the other stuff just now, but I take issue with one of the moments the show sets up as a big sign of evil: David torturing Oliver. Consider that David had every reason, including the taunts coming out of Oliver's mouth, to believe that Farouk was the one he was facing. Farouk, the man who had killed and mindraped who knows how many people over the years, including David's own friends and family, and was soon going to become significantly more capable of continuing the same or doing worse. Farouk, the man who tore holes in David's mind, stole his will, gave him waking nightmares, and had been doing so since before David could walk. Farouk, the man who was the sadistic architect of virtually everything that had ever gone wrong in David's life. I think most relatively moral (or at least non-evil) people wouldn't hesitate to hurt such a person under those circumstances. Even so, David didn't torture Farouk just out of spite. He was there to kill the guy and end the threat. He would have left the psychic drill in its psychic toolbox if only he didn't think he had to wrest Sydney's location from Farouk to save her.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    I guess Oliver is also a secret sociopath since it looked like he was enjoying himself durring the division raid

    Exactly.

    You have to infer tons to end up making David the bad guy. This may be the writers intent and certainly what Syd did to a murderous degree, but it's still more inference than fact.

    You have to ignore tons to make the Shadow King being free or some kind of better option than David make a lick of sense. It's insanity.



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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    I guess Oliver is also a secret sociopath since it looked like he was enjoying himself durring the division raid

    Exactly.

    You have to infer tons to end up making David the bad guy. This may be the writers intent and certainly what Syd did to a murderous degree, but it's still more inference than fact.

    You have to ignore tons to make the Shadow King being free or some kind of better option than David make a lick of sense. It's insanity.



    Most of the characters have little to no direct interaction with Farouk. To someone like Clark or Syd its the choice between two god like monsters, and at least Farouk comes across as rational.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    They know plenty about the Shadow King! They don't need to talk to him.

    They KNOW he turned David's sister into Lenny after ashing all her guards. They know he steals bodies. They know he drove them all insane and got Ptonomy matrixed. They've KNOW he's a BAD BAD BAD man.

    They're afraid David will do something. They know David could have killed them all. Or they should. It just makes no damn sense.

    Like was said, Future Syd is to blame for all this shit for some reason it looks like.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    They know plenty about the Shadow King! They don't need to talk to him.

    They KNOW he turned David's sister into Lenny after ashing all her guards. They know he steals bodies. They know he drove them all insane and got Ptonomy matrixed. They've KNOW he's a BAD BAD BAD man.

    They're afraid David will do something. They know David could have killed them all. Or they should. It just makes no damn sense.

    Like was said, Future Syd is to blame for all this shit for some reason it looks like.

    David is also dangerously unstable, just tortured one of their best friends to death, and raped Syd so I mean. Devil you know.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The point of S2 seemed to question to what extent he was really forced. Throughout S1, he slaughters people and seems to enjoy it.
    Come again? David kills the people in Division 3 when he rescues his sister, but that's it. Early in the S1 finale he makes the leaning tower of D3 soldiers, but they're all clearly still alive and appear uninjured. Zero blood. Considering that was the start of his peace talk plan, I doubt he just left them to die of exposure or whatever.

    We know Farouk can take over a host so thoroughly they have no control. He does it multiple times in the Season 1 finale. First Syd, then he takes over Kerry so thoroughly that he forces her to hurt Cary(!) and Melanie, then he subjugates Oliver thoroughly enough to force him to immediately abandon his wife the moment after he remembers who she is. David is the only one who's shown the ability to mount any kind of resistance, but he was still losing the fight for his body in the S1 finale even with all the equipment and technological support he had.

    In episode four, David gets out of the Astral Plane with the help of Lenny. She says "if you just concentrate... or if... together, maybe." then they teleport out of there while both shouting with exertion. As they do so, David's face is superimposed with Lenny's and they both morph into the face of the Devil With Yellow Eyes. In the final seconds of that episode, Lenny is actually shown wrapping her hands around David, riding his back, and smiling. From that moment of David letting him in and accepting his help, Farouk gained a large degree of control. This is the precursor to David's trip to Division 3. He even starts wearing a yellow shirt the next time he changes clothes to correspond with the Devil.

    So, the Division 3 slaughter. Sure, he looked like he enjoyed it. So did Oliver, when he made his own invasion in season 2. Rewatch those scenes. David and Oliver act the same, with matching physical mannerisms of dancing around and waving their arms a certain way when disintegrating people. Why would they do that, unless Farouk was in the driver's seat both times? David even showed up on camera after the fact as the Devil With Yellow Eyes. Why would he choose to physically manifest that guise? Based on all those things and the fact that we only have Farouk's word (which is completely worthless) as counter evidence, I think it's ridiculous to lay any culpability at David's feet for season 1 killings.

    I don't want to take the time to go through season 2 and talk about the other stuff just now, but I take issue with one of the moments the show sets up as a big sign of evil: David torturing Oliver. Consider that David had every reason, including the taunts coming out of Oliver's mouth, to believe that Farouk was the one he was facing. Farouk, the man who had killed and mindraped who knows how many people over the years, including David's own friends and family, and was soon going to become significantly more capable of continuing the same or doing worse. Farouk, the man who tore holes in David's mind, stole his will, gave him waking nightmares, and had been doing so since before David could walk. Farouk, the man who was the sadistic architect of virtually everything that had ever gone wrong in David's life. I think most relatively moral (or at least non-evil) people wouldn't hesitate to hurt such a person under those circumstances. Even so, David didn't torture Farouk just out of spite. He was there to kill the guy and end the threat. He would have left the psychic drill in its psychic toolbox if only he didn't think he had to wrest Sydney's location from Farouk to save her.

    These aren't bad points, per se, but:

    A: David's look when he is torturing Oliver - when he is ostensibly in control - is deliberately the same as the look he gets when he's slaughtering people in the first season.
    2: If the show tries to pull a "it's not fair to blame David, because [reasons], it will be a far less interesting show than if he's just a guy who does fucked up things because he's kinda fucked up.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    It totally isn't fair to David already, so.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    @ElJeffe @Captain Tragedy should probably update OP for open spoilers for S2? I think someone said it doesn't hit streaming sites until the season ends.

    Oliver questions:

    His threat to Farouk*: 1+1 = 1. Was this alluding to Amy persuading Lenny to help David? I had assumed so, because that very nearly worked.

    Ice cube testimonial**: They both seem confused when recalling that they helped Farouk, and that David turned because Oliver "showed him his future".

    Did we see that, and what was it a reference to?

    *"Please, you must give me hint" was very Inigo-Wesley. I quite enjoyed that exchange.

    ** I love Jermaine Clement, I don't think anyone else could have delivered the "Soup? No we've been here longer than that." line as convincingly.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    also now that they released the guy who can easily take over all their brains, they now have no way to stop him now that he's got his indestructible body.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    also now that they released the guy who can easily take over all their brains, they now have no way to stop him now that he's got his indestructible body.

    It seems notable that Farouk didn't lift a finger to stop David. People are livestock to him, David is his only peer. It seems more logical that he wants to alienate him from humanity, like any good abusive parent, than it does him wanting to stop David from wiping them out.

    Edit: This goes to my curiosity of what he may have made Oliver do to flip him. He was amused by what FS told him; amd meeting him clearly wasn't part of her plan. I suspect he had no intent of stopping David once he realized that he could be turned against humanity; and that seems like a good conflict point for Season 3. (I had initially assumed that was a series finale, because it's a weird show that I love)

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  • Captain TragedyCaptain Tragedy Registered User regular
    edited June 2018
    @ElJeffe @Captain Tragedy should probably update OP for open spoilers for S2? I think someone said it doesn't hit streaming sites until the season ends.

    Done.

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  • akajaybayakajaybay Registered User regular
    I don't feel like the writing in this season really pulled off what it was going for. Especially because it's a bit unclear exactly what they are going for. But I'm not against the turn conceptually.
    While the rest of the casts actions may have pushed David to this place faster than it would have happened otherwise, it certainly seems like they've built the case that it was going to go that way eventually.
    David wants to be loved. That's his underlying desire. So he builds the idea that if he's a good person then he deserves love. He plays the role of the good guy in return for love and adoration. He gets more and more irritated when he's not rewarded or patted on the back for when he acomplishes things. He goes very quickly to an almost smug demeanor when things are going their way. When he's no longer getting that love in return for being good, it doesn't take him very long to say fuck it then, why did I bother.
    The attitude that the world, and by extension other people, owe you love in return for bring a "good" person is dangerous in regular people and can lead to some real shitty behavior.

    BUT, I'm not sure if that's what they're actually going for. Because they're also throwing in that, he also has actual mental problems even with the SK gone. They've also strange bit of SK being out in the end to muddy the waters. The whole season has brought the surrealness that was previously reserved for inside people's minds to the ostensible real world. Like so, there was an actual physically real minotaur?
    The side characters were mostly written as vague afterthoughts in the scripts. Does anyone care what happened to Ptolemy? Maybe it happened off screen. Maybe it's a commentary that if David really only cares about himself, Syd, and Sk then that's all the show cares about too? I kind of doubt that was intentional.

    The finale mental battle was a fantastic scene, and the season still had a lot of fantastic scenes, but the whole did not hold together remotely as well as the first season did. Throw in a last minute sexual assault, and I'm real nervous about where they go from there.

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