The Shadow King is not a victim by any stretch... the rest I suppose.
There’s a through line for this season that does touch on his origins though. Up to interpretation, but I think its inclusion is meaningful.
When Charles goes to visit Farouk, the servant/slave/whatever he is talks about where Farouk came from. The important bit is him noting that Farouk was an orphan.
Put that up against the focus on parenting and learning from a young age for David and Syd, you get some interesting things to consider.
Edit: I’d also add that Farouk has already done things that appear pretty monstrous before he meets Charles, but a lot happens after that to shape future Farouk. Interestingly, he gets to live the same childhood as David.
I think the main difference is pretty simple, though. Farouk came to genuinely to love David after all his time with him. It doesn’t make him a good person, but it makes him a person.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
The perspective Farouk has in the third season is really at odds with his fusion of Lenny and Amy in the second season though.
Maybe the turning point is supposed to be Farouk's conversation with future Syd?
The perspective Farouk has in the third season is really at odds with his fusion of Lenny and Amy in the second season though.
Maybe the turning point is supposed to be Farouk's conversation with future Syd?
Two things:
I’m not sure Farouk didn’t see the Lenny/Amy switch as a genuine gift to David. Farouk knew all the angry feelings and resentment that David had for his sister, and he knew that David had a close attachment to the Lenny from Clockworks/altered memories. I think there’s a real chance Farouk just didn’t understand what he was doing to David by getting rid of his most reliable support system, and thought the anger outweighed the other feelings.
Alternately, I think Farouk might have had a little perspective shift based on seeing David after what he did to Syd. It’s always seemed possible Farouk was manipulating David when he said that seeing David that way was heart breaking, but I increasingly think he meant it.
I watched the end of season 2 again last night and while he doesnt say much during the "trial" there are some shots of him that could be interpreted as him coming to a realization.
I watched the end of season 2 again last night and while he doesnt say much during the "trial" there are some shots of him that could be interpreted as him coming to a realization.
Farouk as a psychic entity was described by other characters as incomplete. He may not have had the full perspective shift until after he recovered his body and got to consider things more clearly.
Also I doubt he is "good" now. Just he is weary of being an uncaring Tyrant and legitimately wants David to live an untainted childhood.
OneAngryPossum put it very well: not everyone in the show is a good person, but they're all people. They all do good and bad, they can all be selfish or kind at times. And even though some of them are bastards, I think they all legitimately want to be better by the end.
Ultimately, it's about a bunch of flawed individuals coming to a decision that they all think has potential to make the world a better place. And I would say that the show's argument is that, more important than how things turn out, is that they made that decision, and they made it together and of their own free will.
That, I think, is the difference between David's original plan and what they came up with. David wanted to go back in time and murder Farouk, and potentially everyone else in his way, to force this decision upon everyone. Instead, they all wound up on the same page and approached the issue from a place of mutual understanding. It was still a reset, but it was consensual. Which is a nice capstone on the issue of David's rape of Syd - he wants to fix her, but he forces the solution upon her rather than letting her choose, which is immoral even if he's correct about her being misled by Farouk.
He's trying to recreate this mistake, but on a cosmic level. But in the end, he realizes that would be both wrong and futile. He chooses to spare Farouk, Farouk chooses not to fight Charles, and - maybe - everyone turns out for the better.
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"Few people are actually good, most are just doing what they can as best as they see fit" is a pretty common theme in Hawley's work. Both writing and film.
I watched the end of season 2 again last night and while he doesnt say much during the "trial" there are some shots of him that could be interpreted as him coming to a realization.
Farouk as a psychic entity was described by other characters as incomplete. He may not have had the full perspective shift until after he recovered his body and got to consider things more clearly.
Also I doubt he is "good" now. Just he is weary of being an uncaring Tyrant and legitimately wants David to live an untainted childhood.
Oh no, Farouk is going right back to ruling his kingdom and torturing his subjects, there's no doubt about that.
The idea being put forward here is that Farouk's decades spent as David's parasite caused him to develop a real paternal love for David, and he wanted the best for him after that. The problem I have with this is that it should have happened already as of episode 1. Farouk was always very openly antagonistic towards David and everyone else as I recall, at least up until the point when he became the opposition leader against David at the end of last season (which was almost certainly done via some psychic meddling). Then suddenly we are shown him acting as a relatively benign leader trying to save the world, albeit through morally questionable means. His team successfully kills David in the beginning of this season, without knowledge of the time travel safety net.
I think at the very best, he remains a sociopath with a weak spot for this one kid. He hasn't earned any kind of redemption, let alone a blank check to just go back to ruling his kingdom unfettered. I'm not sure what the writers really want us to feel about this, but it wasn't portrayed as a dark outcome.
The idea being put forward here is that Farouk's decades spent as David's parasite caused him to develop a real paternal love for David, and he wanted the best for him after that. The problem I have with this is that it should have happened already as of episode 1. Farouk was always very openly antagonistic towards David and everyone else as I recall, at least up until the point when he became the opposition leader against David at the end of last season (which was almost certainly done via some psychic meddling). Then suddenly we are shown him acting as a relatively benign leader trying to save the world, albeit through morally questionable means. His team successfully kills David in the beginning of this season, without knowledge of the time travel safety net.
I think at the very best, he remains a sociopath with a weak spot for this one kid. He hasn't earned any kind of redemption, let alone a blank check to just go back to ruling his kingdom unfettered. I'm not sure what the writers really want us to feel about this, but it wasn't portrayed as a dark outcome.
Regarding the bolded, Farouk didn’t seem happy about that. Killing David was Syd’s move. Farouk was surprised and confronted her about it.
Season 1 Farouk, on rewatch, is a bit of a mixed bag. He helps David rescue his sister (Farouk really has no reason to give a shit about her, but David wants it). Farouk also locks David in a mental box when he’s gotten bored.
I got the impression, if there’s a coherent through line for Farouk at that point, that he was disappointed by David. Farouk viewed David as a potential equal, somebody who could be anything, and he spends years in a mental institution doing nothing. Then David starts hanging with the Summerland crew instead of just breaking off on his own - they’re picking at David’s memory, that’s dangerous for Farouk, and Farouk gets more explicitly hostile.
I think Farouk is mostly lacking in empathy, but he also feels tremendously alone (he says this to Charles, and I don’t think he’s lying) - David was a companion and a potential peer, as well as a surrogate son.
Leaving him to rule his kingdom isn’t saying that he’s going to turn out for the better, just that trying to end this situation through violence before only led to further horrors. Maybe things will go bad again, but you learn, you do something different, and you hope for the best.
Edit: I’d also add that Farouk wasn’t always hostile with David. He actually attempts to teach him some lessons (not great lessons, but Summerland was pushing some equally unhealthy perspectives) about navigating a world you have the ability to alter at a whim. Farouk also teaches him about using his powers to fight other psychics, which Farouk always looks gleeful about.
Just finished this, what an incredible three seasons, any chance we'll get more?
Regarding the end of S2 I think some people are underselling how terrifying a development David altering Sids memory is. If someone was capable of altering or removing portions of your memory and personality when it was convenient for them and then did so with the full intention of hiding the action. You'd be freaking out too, that's a quick toboggan ride into megalomania.
Just finished this, what an incredible three seasons, any chance we'll get more?
Regarding the end of S2 I think some people are underselling how terrifying a development David altering Sids memory is. If someone was capable of altering or removing portions of your memory and personality when it was convenient for them and then did so with the full intention of hiding the action. You'd be freaking out too, that's a quick toboggan ride into megalomania.
Sure, then they all invite a guy to hang out who has totally done that maliciously when that problem presents itself.
No? He was their #1 baddie the entire time almost until not all of the sudden.
They fight against the shadow king in s1 because theyre convinced its whats making David do all this horrible stuff but them David loses everyone's trust, tortures Oliver to death, and rapes Syd so theyre thinking maybe the problem is David and maybe not this Moroccan man in a nice suit who has power that can help them.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
No? He was their #1 baddie the entire time almost until not all of the sudden.
They fight against the shadow king in s1 because theyre convinced its whats making David do all this horrible stuff but them David loses everyone's trust, tortures Oliver to death, and rapes Syd so theyre thinking maybe the problem is David and maybe not this Moroccan man in a nice suit who has power that can help them.
He tortures Oliver because he thinks the SK is in him, but not fatally.
No? He was their #1 baddie the entire time almost until not all of the sudden.
They fight against the shadow king in s1 because theyre convinced its whats making David do all this horrible stuff but them David loses everyone's trust, tortures Oliver to death, and rapes Syd so theyre thinking maybe the problem is David and maybe not this Moroccan man in a nice suit who has power that can help them.
He tortures Oliver because he thinks the SK is in him, but not fatally.
Pretty sure his body dies from the wounds. Point is David sans Farouk is arguably worse. So they dont trust Farouk but he looks like someone they can work with and thats before you get into the whole ending the world thing.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
In the season 2 finale, during the icecube flash forward interview, Melanie and Oliver say that their bodies (plural) are safe.
David did NOTHING to compare to Farouk. Nothing. Even if you view David in the worst light. Just it's makes no sense to argue otherwise, you have to ignore everything. Like you think David killed his sister? Enslaved a palace of kids? Etc etc.
They have legit reason to believe David is going to end the world.
That's kind of an Enemy of My Enemy situation.
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David did NOTHING to compare to Farouk. Nothing. Even if you view David in the worst light. Just it's makes no sense to argue otherwise, you have to ignore everything. Like you think David killed his sister? Enslaved a palace of kids? Etc etc.
I imagine Syd would have come clean about the Future Syd information after she realized what David had done to her.
Future Syd’s existence also confirms that in at least one scenario, the one where David succeeds in bashing Farouk’s head in, David ends the world and traps Syd in some sort of prison.
David is extremely sympathetic, but it doesn’t mean he’s not also exceedingly dangerous and unstable. He’s a living nuclear arsenal with numerous psychological illnesses that he has no interest in treating because he refuses to believe he might be wrong or anything but a ‘good person.’
They defeated Farouk. They didn't need to kill him after they defeated him.
Given how rapidly he broke out of his containment system and started using his powers to alter people's minds, they kind of did. They just didn't believe David when he told them how dangerous Farouk was, or they did and still thought the risk was worth it to contain David.
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There’s a through line for this season that does touch on his origins though. Up to interpretation, but I think its inclusion is meaningful.
Put that up against the focus on parenting and learning from a young age for David and Syd, you get some interesting things to consider.
Edit: I’d also add that Farouk has already done things that appear pretty monstrous before he meets Charles, but a lot happens after that to shape future Farouk. Interestingly, he gets to live the same childhood as David.
I think the main difference is pretty simple, though. Farouk came to genuinely to love David after all his time with him. It doesn’t make him a good person, but it makes him a person.
Maybe the turning point is supposed to be Farouk's conversation with future Syd?
We dont get much of his background but you can argue he's a victim of his own power, made unable to connect with or value others.
Yeah I think an element also was that he was madly desperate to get his body back and he did things to further that goal regardless of their morality.
Two things:
I’m not sure Farouk didn’t see the Lenny/Amy switch as a genuine gift to David. Farouk knew all the angry feelings and resentment that David had for his sister, and he knew that David had a close attachment to the Lenny from Clockworks/altered memories. I think there’s a real chance Farouk just didn’t understand what he was doing to David by getting rid of his most reliable support system, and thought the anger outweighed the other feelings.
Alternately, I think Farouk might have had a little perspective shift based on seeing David after what he did to Syd. It’s always seemed possible Farouk was manipulating David when he said that seeing David that way was heart breaking, but I increasingly think he meant it.
Farouk as a psychic entity was described by other characters as incomplete. He may not have had the full perspective shift until after he recovered his body and got to consider things more clearly.
Also I doubt he is "good" now. Just he is weary of being an uncaring Tyrant and legitimately wants David to live an untainted childhood.
Ultimately, it's about a bunch of flawed individuals coming to a decision that they all think has potential to make the world a better place. And I would say that the show's argument is that, more important than how things turn out, is that they made that decision, and they made it together and of their own free will.
He's trying to recreate this mistake, but on a cosmic level. But in the end, he realizes that would be both wrong and futile. He chooses to spare Farouk, Farouk chooses not to fight Charles, and - maybe - everyone turns out for the better.
Oh no, Farouk is going right back to ruling his kingdom and torturing his subjects, there's no doubt about that.
I think at the very best, he remains a sociopath with a weak spot for this one kid. He hasn't earned any kind of redemption, let alone a blank check to just go back to ruling his kingdom unfettered. I'm not sure what the writers really want us to feel about this, but it wasn't portrayed as a dark outcome.
Regarding the bolded, Farouk didn’t seem happy about that. Killing David was Syd’s move. Farouk was surprised and confronted her about it.
Season 1 Farouk, on rewatch, is a bit of a mixed bag. He helps David rescue his sister (Farouk really has no reason to give a shit about her, but David wants it). Farouk also locks David in a mental box when he’s gotten bored.
I got the impression, if there’s a coherent through line for Farouk at that point, that he was disappointed by David. Farouk viewed David as a potential equal, somebody who could be anything, and he spends years in a mental institution doing nothing. Then David starts hanging with the Summerland crew instead of just breaking off on his own - they’re picking at David’s memory, that’s dangerous for Farouk, and Farouk gets more explicitly hostile.
I think Farouk is mostly lacking in empathy, but he also feels tremendously alone (he says this to Charles, and I don’t think he’s lying) - David was a companion and a potential peer, as well as a surrogate son.
Leaving him to rule his kingdom isn’t saying that he’s going to turn out for the better, just that trying to end this situation through violence before only led to further horrors. Maybe things will go bad again, but you learn, you do something different, and you hope for the best.
Edit: I’d also add that Farouk wasn’t always hostile with David. He actually attempts to teach him some lessons (not great lessons, but Summerland was pushing some equally unhealthy perspectives) about navigating a world you have the ability to alter at a whim. Farouk also teaches him about using his powers to fight other psychics, which Farouk always looks gleeful about.
Regarding the end of S2 I think some people are underselling how terrifying a development David altering Sids memory is. If someone was capable of altering or removing portions of your memory and personality when it was convenient for them and then did so with the full intention of hiding the action. You'd be freaking out too, that's a quick toboggan ride into megalomania.
Sure, then they all invite a guy to hang out who has totally done that maliciously when that problem presents itself.
Clearly that was not the main concern for them.
Anyone who knew how bad he really was was either dead or David.
They fight against the shadow king in s1 because theyre convinced its whats making David do all this horrible stuff but them David loses everyone's trust, tortures Oliver to death, and rapes Syd so theyre thinking maybe the problem is David and maybe not this Moroccan man in a nice suit who has power that can help them.
He tortures Oliver because he thinks the SK is in him, but not fatally.
Pretty sure his body dies from the wounds. Point is David sans Farouk is arguably worse. So they dont trust Farouk but he looks like someone they can work with and thats before you get into the whole ending the world thing.
That's kind of an Enemy of My Enemy situation.
You're arguing as if they had perfect knowledge
Future Syd’s existence also confirms that in at least one scenario, the one where David succeeds in bashing Farouk’s head in, David ends the world and traps Syd in some sort of prison.
David is extremely sympathetic, but it doesn’t mean he’s not also exceedingly dangerous and unstable. He’s a living nuclear arsenal with numerous psychological illnesses that he has no interest in treating because he refuses to believe he might be wrong or anything but a ‘good person.’
Given how rapidly he broke out of his containment system and started using his powers to alter people's minds, they kind of did. They just didn't believe David when he told them how dangerous Farouk was, or they did and still thought the risk was worth it to contain David.