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LGBT protections: Trump memo seeks trans erasure

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Posts

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Autocorrect I swear to Christ

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    The right does not care about consistency. Hypocrisy is something they only care about as a bludgeon to use against the left. You can't force them to admit the inconsistency of their own actions, beliefs or statements. They don't care.

    Their judges will rule the sun sets in the West to fuck over trans people one day and the next day rule the sun sets in the east to fuck over blacks and not blink an eye about doing so.

    The law is just a means to achieve their policy goals and they feel no need for it to be consistent when they apply it.

    shryke on
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I mean, in a world where that actually gets approved by the SCOTUS, it isn't going to take long for a cis person to be wrongly fired for that, and then the legal battle that will follow will probably bring us back to where we are? That or it'll lead to gross intrusive body inspections by employers?

    I want to believe there's a progressive business owner somewhere who would be willing to hire an alt-right cis-man just for the purposes of firing them for not looking enough like a trans-woman, just to bait the case.

    If you can discriminate based on gender expression, you can discriminate based on gender expression; right?

    I feel this maybe ignores the point that

    like

    the people in question do not care about logic and constitutional coherency.

    It's about the exercise of power, to reshape the country how they want it to be.

    If they can use the law to do it, they'll use the law as their weapon. If the law works against them, they'll find a loophole or enough of an obfuscation to get around it.

    We are not dealing with people who actually rely on legal consistency. We are dealing with people who have an endgoal in mind and use what's available to get there.

    And this misses the point that, if anything is ever going to matter again, and this all goes as we fear, then getting SCOTUS to go on record ASAP contradicting itself to favor a cis person will matter.

    This is a thing that matters to you, because you believe in a democratic law-administered social order that was primarily defined in the mid to late 20th century, thanks to a progressive Court and years of literal blood and sweat poured out by activists fighting for change throughout the century.

    This is a thing that your opponents do not care about. The law is not meant, in their eyes, to bind them, but to bind others on their behalf. To keep these others out of sight, out of power and, when and where your opponents are benefited by it, exploitable.

    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care. As ostensible a democracy as this country is supposed to be, power is rapidly coelescing, politically and financially, in the hands of the GOP thanks to understanding how to manipulate the systems that make up American society. Control enough localities and you can create gerrymanders that give you seats despite more democratic votes collectively against you. Block enough court appointments and then when you’re in charge you can appoint your favorable judges instead. Create an economy where more and more labor is seen as replaceable cogs and Capital holders as the vital core of industry and people will be too busy just trying to make enough money to survive to care about politics.

    When bad actors control the system, it is practically impossible to use the system against them, because theyre at the controls.

    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate. And this is without even getting into the fucking pandora’s box that is “what is ‘not looking enough like a trans woman’?” and the blowback against trans people that idea carries with it.

    your idea is bad at multiple levels, and while I recognize your desperation to help, you’re basically saying “why don’t I use a flamethrower on that monster, while we all are here in this room flooded with flammable gas?”
    The bolded is a good point, and thank you for pointing it out.
    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate.

    Also found, but the remedy seems to be to simply frame less boneheadedly than I did. I'm sure someone can figure that out.
    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care.

    This is not about making them care. Obviously they do not, and will not, care. If this court is going to rule that a person can be fired for their gender, sexuality, or their religion, then they need to be made to rule on what it means when it's about them.

    My goal about getting blatant miscarriage of Justice on record so that when good actors take over again they can be held to account. My goal is to not allow that the rule of law will never return.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I mean, in a world where that actually gets approved by the SCOTUS, it isn't going to take long for a cis person to be wrongly fired for that, and then the legal battle that will follow will probably bring us back to where we are? That or it'll lead to gross intrusive body inspections by employers?

    I want to believe there's a progressive business owner somewhere who would be willing to hire an alt-right cis-man just for the purposes of firing them for not looking enough like a trans-woman, just to bait the case.

    If you can discriminate based on gender expression, you can discriminate based on gender expression; right?

    I feel this maybe ignores the point that

    like

    the people in question do not care about logic and constitutional coherency.

    It's about the exercise of power, to reshape the country how they want it to be.

    If they can use the law to do it, they'll use the law as their weapon. If the law works against them, they'll find a loophole or enough of an obfuscation to get around it.

    We are not dealing with people who actually rely on legal consistency. We are dealing with people who have an endgoal in mind and use what's available to get there.

    And this misses the point that, if anything is ever going to matter again, and this all goes as we fear, then getting SCOTUS to go on record ASAP contradicting itself to favor a cis person will matter.

    This is a thing that matters to you, because you believe in a democratic law-administered social order that was primarily defined in the mid to late 20th century, thanks to a progressive Court and years of literal blood and sweat poured out by activists fighting for change throughout the century.

    This is a thing that your opponents do not care about. The law is not meant, in their eyes, to bind them, but to bind others on their behalf. To keep these others out of sight, out of power and, when and where your opponents are benefited by it, exploitable.

    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care. As ostensible a democracy as this country is supposed to be, power is rapidly coelescing, politically and financially, in the hands of the GOP thanks to understanding how to manipulate the systems that make up American society. Control enough localities and you can create gerrymanders that give you seats despite more democratic votes collectively against you. Block enough court appointments and then when you’re in charge you can appoint your favorable judges instead. Create an economy where more and more labor is seen as replaceable cogs and Capital holders as the vital core of industry and people will be too busy just trying to make enough money to survive to care about politics.

    When bad actors control the system, it is practically impossible to use the system against them, because theyre at the controls.

    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate. And this is without even getting into the fucking pandora’s box that is “what is ‘not looking enough like a trans woman’?” and the blowback against trans people that idea carries with it.

    your idea is bad at multiple levels, and while I recognize your desperation to help, you’re basically saying “why don’t I use a flamethrower on that monster, while we all are here in this room flooded with flammable gas?”
    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate.

    Fair. So frame less boneheadedly than I did.
    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care.

    This is not about making them care. Obviously they do not, and will not, care. If this court is going to rule that a person can be fired for their gender, sexuality, or their religion, then they need to be made to rule on what it means when it's about them.

    My goal about getting blatant miscarriage of Justice on record so that when good actors take over again they can be held to account. My goal is to not allow that the rule of law will never return.

    We already got those flagrantly contradictory rulings this spring.

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  • NecoNeco desert harpy Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    It just keeps going:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/24/trump-administration-gender-transgender-united-nations
    US officials have pushed for rewriting of collective statements to remove language inclusive of transgender people

    The US mission to the United Nations is seeking to eliminate the word “gender” from UN human rights documents,

    Neco on
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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    I'm NOT suggesting this is a good idea, but wouldn't the obvious liberal troll move be to fire a conservative cis man for not looking sufficiently masculine?

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
    PLA
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I mean, in a world where that actually gets approved by the SCOTUS, it isn't going to take long for a cis person to be wrongly fired for that, and then the legal battle that will follow will probably bring us back to where we are? That or it'll lead to gross intrusive body inspections by employers?

    I want to believe there's a progressive business owner somewhere who would be willing to hire an alt-right cis-man just for the purposes of firing them for not looking enough like a trans-woman, just to bait the case.

    If you can discriminate based on gender expression, you can discriminate based on gender expression; right?

    I feel this maybe ignores the point that

    like

    the people in question do not care about logic and constitutional coherency.

    It's about the exercise of power, to reshape the country how they want it to be.

    If they can use the law to do it, they'll use the law as their weapon. If the law works against them, they'll find a loophole or enough of an obfuscation to get around it.

    We are not dealing with people who actually rely on legal consistency. We are dealing with people who have an endgoal in mind and use what's available to get there.

    And this misses the point that, if anything is ever going to matter again, and this all goes as we fear, then getting SCOTUS to go on record ASAP contradicting itself to favor a cis person will matter.

    This is a thing that matters to you, because you believe in a democratic law-administered social order that was primarily defined in the mid to late 20th century, thanks to a progressive Court and years of literal blood and sweat poured out by activists fighting for change throughout the century.

    This is a thing that your opponents do not care about. The law is not meant, in their eyes, to bind them, but to bind others on their behalf. To keep these others out of sight, out of power and, when and where your opponents are benefited by it, exploitable.

    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care. As ostensible a democracy as this country is supposed to be, power is rapidly coelescing, politically and financially, in the hands of the GOP thanks to understanding how to manipulate the systems that make up American society. Control enough localities and you can create gerrymanders that give you seats despite more democratic votes collectively against you. Block enough court appointments and then when you’re in charge you can appoint your favorable judges instead. Create an economy where more and more labor is seen as replaceable cogs and Capital holders as the vital core of industry and people will be too busy just trying to make enough money to survive to care about politics.

    When bad actors control the system, it is practically impossible to use the system against them, because theyre at the controls.

    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate. And this is without even getting into the fucking pandora’s box that is “what is ‘not looking enough like a trans woman’?” and the blowback against trans people that idea carries with it.

    your idea is bad at multiple levels, and while I recognize your desperation to help, you’re basically saying “why don’t I use a flamethrower on that monster, while we all are here in this room flooded with flammable gas?”
    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate.

    Fair. So frame less boneheadedly than I did.
    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care.

    This is not about making them care. Obviously they do not, and will not, care. If this court is going to rule that a person can be fired for their gender, sexuality, or their religion, then they need to be made to rule on what it means when it's about them.

    My goal about getting blatant miscarriage of Justice on record so that when good actors take over again they can be held to account. My goal is to not allow that the rule of law will never return.

    We already got those flagrantly contradictory rulings this spring.

    Good*. Now let's get another. Stack em up so I can see these fuckers impeached before I die.

    *(:()

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I mean, in a world where that actually gets approved by the SCOTUS, it isn't going to take long for a cis person to be wrongly fired for that, and then the legal battle that will follow will probably bring us back to where we are? That or it'll lead to gross intrusive body inspections by employers?

    I want to believe there's a progressive business owner somewhere who would be willing to hire an alt-right cis-man just for the purposes of firing them for not looking enough like a trans-woman, just to bait the case.

    If you can discriminate based on gender expression, you can discriminate based on gender expression; right?

    I feel this maybe ignores the point that

    like

    the people in question do not care about logic and constitutional coherency.

    It's about the exercise of power, to reshape the country how they want it to be.

    If they can use the law to do it, they'll use the law as their weapon. If the law works against them, they'll find a loophole or enough of an obfuscation to get around it.

    We are not dealing with people who actually rely on legal consistency. We are dealing with people who have an endgoal in mind and use what's available to get there.

    And this misses the point that, if anything is ever going to matter again, and this all goes as we fear, then getting SCOTUS to go on record ASAP contradicting itself to favor a cis person will matter.

    This is a thing that matters to you, because you believe in a democratic law-administered social order that was primarily defined in the mid to late 20th century, thanks to a progressive Court and years of literal blood and sweat poured out by activists fighting for change throughout the century.

    This is a thing that your opponents do not care about. The law is not meant, in their eyes, to bind them, but to bind others on their behalf. To keep these others out of sight, out of power and, when and where your opponents are benefited by it, exploitable.

    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care. As ostensible a democracy as this country is supposed to be, power is rapidly coelescing, politically and financially, in the hands of the GOP thanks to understanding how to manipulate the systems that make up American society. Control enough localities and you can create gerrymanders that give you seats despite more democratic votes collectively against you. Block enough court appointments and then when you’re in charge you can appoint your favorable judges instead. Create an economy where more and more labor is seen as replaceable cogs and Capital holders as the vital core of industry and people will be too busy just trying to make enough money to survive to care about politics.

    When bad actors control the system, it is practically impossible to use the system against them, because theyre at the controls.

    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate. And this is without even getting into the fucking pandora’s box that is “what is ‘not looking enough like a trans woman’?” and the blowback against trans people that idea carries with it.

    your idea is bad at multiple levels, and while I recognize your desperation to help, you’re basically saying “why don’t I use a flamethrower on that monster, while we all are here in this room flooded with flammable gas?”
    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate.

    Fair. So frame less boneheadedly than I did.
    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care.

    This is not about making them care. Obviously they do not, and will not, care. If this court is going to rule that a person can be fired for their gender, sexuality, or their religion, then they need to be made to rule on what it means when it's about them.

    My goal about getting blatant miscarriage of Justice on record so that when good actors take over again they can be held to account. My goal is to not allow that the rule of law will never return.

    We already got those flagrantly contradictory rulings this spring.

    Good*. Now let's get another. Stack em up so I can see these fuckers impeached before I die.

    *(:()

    That's not what the end result of contradictory rulings is going to be. The end result of tons of contradictory rulings is that we then have a legal system that's rigged to not really work.

    I highly doubt any judges are ever impeached.

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) I want to cut to the feelingRegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    we're not going to see judges impeached unless enough politicians are terrified of the alternative

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Packing the courts would be vastly easier for politicians simply because of impeachment requirements.

    Couscous on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Calica wrote: »
    I'm NOT suggesting this is a good idea, but wouldn't the obvious liberal troll move be to fire a conservative cis man for not looking sufficiently masculine?

    They. Are. Not. Consistent.

    As far as they're concerned, laws are for controlling their victims and enemies and do not apply to them, and they have the cops and judges and juries to enforce it.

    Incenjucar on
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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    I'm NOT suggesting this is a good idea, but wouldn't the obvious liberal troll move be to fire a conservative cis man for not looking sufficiently masculine?

    But as people have said, if you do that, this will happen.

    1) The courts will INSTANTLY rule that you can't do that, regardless of how absurd that is when considered in the space of their previous ruling
    2) The right will condemn you for eternity, and use your 'Horrible Liberal Bias and Hate' to motivate their voters
    3) The left will ALSO immediately condemn you, because we are still (correctly) trying to present a better vision of the future
    4) The media will have a field day interviewing trump voters and all sorts of people and showing how the left is bad for months

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Remember that all it takes is a single memorable incident to stick in the memory of someone who doesn't follow these things that closely, and that can turn into a subconscious belief that lasts for years, with very little opportunity to change it. Even if later that incident turns out to have been misreported or something, it doesn't matter, the impression has already been implanted.

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  • BandableBandable Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    It is sad that people think we need to manifest this scenario in the first place. Cis women are already being harassed and pulled out of bathrooms for not looking feminine enough. I guarantee that cis folk will be fired for not presenting "enough" as their gender and being mistaken as trans. When that happens it should definitely go to court, but the expectation that this will show bigots the error of their ways is simply ridiculous.

    They will be perfectly happy with punishing cis folks for what they perceive as "poor gender presentation." This is precisely one of their goals.

    Bandable on
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I mean, in a world where that actually gets approved by the SCOTUS, it isn't going to take long for a cis person to be wrongly fired for that, and then the legal battle that will follow will probably bring us back to where we are? That or it'll lead to gross intrusive body inspections by employers?

    I want to believe there's a progressive business owner somewhere who would be willing to hire an alt-right cis-man just for the purposes of firing them for not looking enough like a trans-woman, just to bait the case.

    If you can discriminate based on gender expression, you can discriminate based on gender expression; right?

    I feel this maybe ignores the point that

    like

    the people in question do not care about logic and constitutional coherency.

    It's about the exercise of power, to reshape the country how they want it to be.

    If they can use the law to do it, they'll use the law as their weapon. If the law works against them, they'll find a loophole or enough of an obfuscation to get around it.

    We are not dealing with people who actually rely on legal consistency. We are dealing with people who have an endgoal in mind and use what's available to get there.

    And this misses the point that, if anything is ever going to matter again, and this all goes as we fear, then getting SCOTUS to go on record ASAP contradicting itself to favor a cis person will matter.

    This is a thing that matters to you, because you believe in a democratic law-administered social order that was primarily defined in the mid to late 20th century, thanks to a progressive Court and years of literal blood and sweat poured out by activists fighting for change throughout the century.

    This is a thing that your opponents do not care about. The law is not meant, in their eyes, to bind them, but to bind others on their behalf. To keep these others out of sight, out of power and, when and where your opponents are benefited by it, exploitable.

    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care. As ostensible a democracy as this country is supposed to be, power is rapidly coelescing, politically and financially, in the hands of the GOP thanks to understanding how to manipulate the systems that make up American society. Control enough localities and you can create gerrymanders that give you seats despite more democratic votes collectively against you. Block enough court appointments and then when you’re in charge you can appoint your favorable judges instead. Create an economy where more and more labor is seen as replaceable cogs and Capital holders as the vital core of industry and people will be too busy just trying to make enough money to survive to care about politics.

    When bad actors control the system, it is practically impossible to use the system against them, because theyre at the controls.

    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate. And this is without even getting into the fucking pandora’s box that is “what is ‘not looking enough like a trans woman’?” and the blowback against trans people that idea carries with it.

    your idea is bad at multiple levels, and while I recognize your desperation to help, you’re basically saying “why don’t I use a flamethrower on that monster, while we all are here in this room flooded with flammable gas?”
    What’s more, in this specific case? Congratulations, you’ve just provided a massive propaganda boon to the right wing by being a liberal forcing a man to be stereotypically effeminate.

    Fair. So frame less boneheadedly than I did.
    Your “prove them to be hypocrites” case will not work, because the people with the power do not care.

    This is not about making them care. Obviously they do not, and will not, care. If this court is going to rule that a person can be fired for their gender, sexuality, or their religion, then they need to be made to rule on what it means when it's about them.

    My goal about getting blatant miscarriage of Justice on record so that when good actors take over again they can be held to account. My goal is to not allow that the rule of law will never return.

    We already got those flagrantly contradictory rulings this spring.

    Good*. Now let's get another. Stack em up so I can see these fuckers impeached before I die.

    *(:()

    That's not what the end result of contradictory rulings is going to be. The end result of tons of contradictory rulings is that we then have a legal system that's rigged to not really work.

    I highly doubt any judges are ever impeached.

    For a guy named Sleep, you're sure making hard for me to dream.

    SleepwanderingForarLoisLaneLovelyFallout2man
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    shryke wrote: »
    The right does not care about consistency. Hypocrisy is something they only care about as a bludgeon to use against the left. You can't force them to admit the inconsistency of their own actions, beliefs or statements. They don't care.

    Their judges will rule the sun sets in the West to fuck over trans people one day and the next day rule the sun sets in the east to fuck over blacks and not blink an eye about doing so.

    The law is just a means to achieve their policy goals and they feel no need for it to be consistent when they apply it.

    They are, in essence, O’Brien from 1984
    "Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

    Spoilering this since its long:
    ”We are the priests of power," he said. "God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan 'Freedom is Slavery." Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone-free-the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body-but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter external reality, as you would call it-is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute."'

    ...

    O'Brien silenced him by a movement of the hand. "We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. You will learn-by degrees, Winston. There is nothing that we could not do. Invisibility, levitation-anything. I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wished to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth century ideas about the laws of nature. We make the laws of nature."

    "But you do not! You are not even masters of this planet. What about Eurasia and Eastasia? You have not conquered them yet."

    "Unimportant. We shall conquer them when it suits us. And if we did not, what difference would it make? We can shut them out of existence. Oceania is the world."

    "But the world itself is only a speck of dust. And man is tiny- helpless! How long has he been in existence? For millions of years the earth was uninhabited."

    "Nonsense. The earth is as old as we are, no older. How-could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness."

    "But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals-mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of."

    "Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing."

    "But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach forever."

    "What are the stars?" said O'Brien indifferently. "They are bits of fire a few kilometers away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the center of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it."

    ...

    "For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometers away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?"

    ...

    "I told you, Winston," he said, "that metaphysics is not your strong point. The word you are trying to think of is solipsism. But you are mistaken. This is not solipsism. Collective solipsism, if you like. But that is a different thing; in fact, the opposite thing. All this is a digression,"' he added in a different tone. "The real power, the power we have to fight for night and day, is not power over things, but over men." He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: "How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?"

    Winston thought. "By making him suffer," he said.

    "Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love and justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy- everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always-do not forget this, Winston-always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Zilla360CantidewanderingMrVyngaardPLA
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The right does not care about consistency. Hypocrisy is something they only care about as a bludgeon to use against the left. You can't force them to admit the inconsistency of their own actions, beliefs or statements. They don't care.

    Their judges will rule the sun sets in the West to fuck over trans people one day and the next day rule the sun sets in the east to fuck over blacks and not blink an eye about doing so.

    The law is just a means to achieve their policy goals and they feel no need for it to be consistent when they apply it.

    They are, in essence, O’Brien from 1984
    "Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

    Spoilering this since its long:
    ”We are the priests of power," he said. "God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan 'Freedom is Slavery." Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone-free-the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body-but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter external reality, as you would call it-is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute."'

    ...

    O'Brien silenced him by a movement of the hand. "We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. You will learn-by degrees, Winston. There is nothing that we could not do. Invisibility, levitation-anything. I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wished to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth century ideas about the laws of nature. We make the laws of nature."

    "But you do not! You are not even masters of this planet. What about Eurasia and Eastasia? You have not conquered them yet."

    "Unimportant. We shall conquer them when it suits us. And if we did not, what difference would it make? We can shut them out of existence. Oceania is the world."

    "But the world itself is only a speck of dust. And man is tiny- helpless! How long has he been in existence? For millions of years the earth was uninhabited."

    "Nonsense. The earth is as old as we are, no older. How-could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness."

    "But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals-mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of."

    "Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing."

    "But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach forever."

    "What are the stars?" said O'Brien indifferently. "They are bits of fire a few kilometers away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the center of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it."

    ...

    "For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometers away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?"

    ...

    "I told you, Winston," he said, "that metaphysics is not your strong point. The word you are trying to think of is solipsism. But you are mistaken. This is not solipsism. Collective solipsism, if you like. But that is a different thing; in fact, the opposite thing. All this is a digression,"' he added in a different tone. "The real power, the power we have to fight for night and day, is not power over things, but over men." He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: "How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?"

    Winston thought. "By making him suffer," he said.

    "Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love and justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy- everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always-do not forget this, Winston-always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."

    Eh, this seems far off the mark.

    They want power to enforce a specific agenda. They have specific goals in mind. They just see no value in consistency or the rule of law or any of that in achieving those goals. It's extremely utilitarian. Which should not be surprising given the rights general lack of caring for side-effects and knock-on effects and such.

    Gnome-InterruptusFallout2manYoutube
  • AimAim Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Looks like the latest memo finally pushed Caitlyn Jenner to realize that the face eating leopard party would, indeed, eat her face as well:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/caitlyn-jenner-i-thought-trump-would-help-the-lgbtq-community-i-was-wrong/2018/10/25/3c4cd61e-d86a-11e8-83a2-d1c3da28d6b6_story.html?utm_term=.4d7dd2e6ef0f

    Aim on
    DoodmannGiggles_FunsworthFallout2man
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The right does not care about consistency. Hypocrisy is something they only care about as a bludgeon to use against the left. You can't force them to admit the inconsistency of their own actions, beliefs or statements. They don't care.

    Their judges will rule the sun sets in the West to fuck over trans people one day and the next day rule the sun sets in the east to fuck over blacks and not blink an eye about doing so.

    The law is just a means to achieve their policy goals and they feel no need for it to be consistent when they apply it.

    They are, in essence, O’Brien from 1984
    "Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

    Spoilering this since its long:
    ”We are the priests of power," he said. "God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan 'Freedom is Slavery." Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone-free-the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body-but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter external reality, as you would call it-is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute."'

    ...

    O'Brien silenced him by a movement of the hand. "We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. You will learn-by degrees, Winston. There is nothing that we could not do. Invisibility, levitation-anything. I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wished to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth century ideas about the laws of nature. We make the laws of nature."

    "But you do not! You are not even masters of this planet. What about Eurasia and Eastasia? You have not conquered them yet."

    "Unimportant. We shall conquer them when it suits us. And if we did not, what difference would it make? We can shut them out of existence. Oceania is the world."

    "But the world itself is only a speck of dust. And man is tiny- helpless! How long has he been in existence? For millions of years the earth was uninhabited."

    "Nonsense. The earth is as old as we are, no older. How-could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness."

    "But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals-mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of."

    "Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing."

    "But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach forever."

    "What are the stars?" said O'Brien indifferently. "They are bits of fire a few kilometers away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the center of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it."

    ...

    "For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometers away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?"

    ...

    "I told you, Winston," he said, "that metaphysics is not your strong point. The word you are trying to think of is solipsism. But you are mistaken. This is not solipsism. Collective solipsism, if you like. But that is a different thing; in fact, the opposite thing. All this is a digression,"' he added in a different tone. "The real power, the power we have to fight for night and day, is not power over things, but over men." He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: "How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?"

    Winston thought. "By making him suffer," he said.

    "Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love and justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy- everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always-do not forget this, Winston-always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."

    Eh, this seems far off the mark.

    They want power to enforce a specific agenda. They have specific goals in mind. They just see no value in consistency or the rule of law or any of that in achieving those goals. It's extremely utilitarian. Which should not be surprising given the rights general lack of caring for side-effects and knock-on effects and such.

    They do have a specific agenda, of course, but at the same time the point I’m trying to address there is the psychological aspect: the ability to redefine “reality” to fit the need of the party, to maintain and enforce double think as long as it achieves those ends.

    And of course, as has often been said: the abject cruelty for the sake of executing and maintaining power. The boot stamping on the face, forever.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Zilla360MrVyngaardHarry Dresden
  • LoisLaneLoisLane Registered User regular
    edited October 2018
    Aim wrote: »
    Looks like the latest memo finally pushed Caitlyn Jenner to realize that the face eating leopard party would, indeed, eat her face as well:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/caitlyn-jenner-i-thought-trump-would-help-the-lgbtq-community-i-was-wrong/2018/10/25/3c4cd61e-d86a-11e8-83a2-d1c3da28d6b6_story.html?utm_term=.4d7dd2e6ef0f

    Pay less attention to what she says than on what she does.

    LoisLane on
    ForarTetraNitroCubaneMan in the MistsHarry DresdenFencingsaxPreacherEmerlmaster999A Kobold's KoboldjungleroomxMorganVGennenalyse RuebenHacksawLovelyMayabirdMartini_PhilosopherDoctorArchAtomikaTNTrooperRhesus Positiveemp123Mr RayplufimYamiB.Fallout2manDavid Walgas
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    Aim wrote: »
    Looks like the latest memo finally pushed Caitlyn Jenner to realize that the face eating leopard party would, indeed, eat her face as well:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/caitlyn-jenner-i-thought-trump-would-help-the-lgbtq-community-i-was-wrong/2018/10/25/3c4cd61e-d86a-11e8-83a2-d1c3da28d6b6_story.html?utm_term=.4d7dd2e6ef0f

    Greedy asshole wants sympathy when greed hurts themself and no longer just others.

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
    PreacherExtreaminatusLovelyMr RayYamiB.Fallout2manYoutubebrynhrtmnTicaldfjam
  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The right does not care about consistency. Hypocrisy is something they only care about as a bludgeon to use against the left. You can't force them to admit the inconsistency of their own actions, beliefs or statements. They don't care.

    Their judges will rule the sun sets in the West to fuck over trans people one day and the next day rule the sun sets in the east to fuck over blacks and not blink an eye about doing so.

    The law is just a means to achieve their policy goals and they feel no need for it to be consistent when they apply it.

    They are, in essence, O’Brien from 1984
    "Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

    Spoilering this since its long:
    ”We are the priests of power," he said. "God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan 'Freedom is Slavery." Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone-free-the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body-but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter external reality, as you would call it-is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute."'

    ...

    O'Brien silenced him by a movement of the hand. "We control matter because we control the mind. Reality is inside the skull. You will learn-by degrees, Winston. There is nothing that we could not do. Invisibility, levitation-anything. I could float off this floor like a soap bubble if I wished to. I do not wish to, because the Party does not wish it. You must get rid of those nineteenth century ideas about the laws of nature. We make the laws of nature."

    "But you do not! You are not even masters of this planet. What about Eurasia and Eastasia? You have not conquered them yet."

    "Unimportant. We shall conquer them when it suits us. And if we did not, what difference would it make? We can shut them out of existence. Oceania is the world."

    "But the world itself is only a speck of dust. And man is tiny- helpless! How long has he been in existence? For millions of years the earth was uninhabited."

    "Nonsense. The earth is as old as we are, no older. How-could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness."

    "But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals-mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of."

    "Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing."

    "But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach forever."

    "What are the stars?" said O'Brien indifferently. "They are bits of fire a few kilometers away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the center of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it."

    ...

    "For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometers away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?"

    ...

    "I told you, Winston," he said, "that metaphysics is not your strong point. The word you are trying to think of is solipsism. But you are mistaken. This is not solipsism. Collective solipsism, if you like. But that is a different thing; in fact, the opposite thing. All this is a digression,"' he added in a different tone. "The real power, the power we have to fight for night and day, is not power over things, but over men." He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: "How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?"

    Winston thought. "By making him suffer," he said.

    "Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love and justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy- everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty toward the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always-do not forget this, Winston-always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever."

    Eh, this seems far off the mark.

    They want power to enforce a specific agenda. They have specific goals in mind. They just see no value in consistency or the rule of law or any of that in achieving those goals. It's extremely utilitarian. Which should not be surprising given the rights general lack of caring for side-effects and knock-on effects and such.

    They do have a specific agenda, of course, but at the same time the point I’m trying to address there is the psychological aspect: the ability to redefine “reality” to fit the need of the party, to maintain and enforce double think as long as it achieves those ends.

    And of course, as has often been said: the abject cruelty for the sake of executing and maintaining power. The boot stamping on the face, forever.

    The root of an authoritarian mindset is fear: do unto others before they do unto you. The current conservative agenda is ultimately a manifestation of that.

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    An idea I’m trying to workshop into an explanation of the GOP...

    The GOP is currently the party of the people that have traditionally had power (white (wealthy) men) and are fighting like hell to maintain that. There’s always at least one* political group at a given point that exists to maintain power for those that have long held it, and in that sense I see the conservative agenda as the pursuit and maintenance of power.

    Think about why Milo or Caitlyn are (were) on this side...and I’m struggling to come up with examples of lesbian or transgender male conservatives and I think that’s for a reason...

    *the wealthy are definitely represented in healthy degree by both major parties in the US...

  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) I want to cut to the feelingRegistered User regular
    I wouldn't pay attention to Caitlyn Jenner at all

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I will admit I was surprised by an unequivocal admission of being wrong. She actually cleared the lowest of bars, and the fact I appreciate that is real depressing.

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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    Agreed. Caitlyn is very naive and still learning. It might be a few more years before she truly understands the meaning of 'privilege', and can form a properly reasoned opinion.
    She has a lot of younger LGBT people spending their time, trying to teach her. It's not like she's sticking her fingers in her ears.

    I don't think she'll ever be able to claim to be a 'community leader' or spokesperson though.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Agreed. Caitlyn is very naive and still learning. It might be a few more years before she truly understands the meaning of 'privilege', and can form a properly reasoned opinion.
    She has a lot of younger LGBT people spending their time, trying to teach her. It's not like she's sticking her fingers in her ears.

    I don't think she'll ever be able to claim to be a 'community leader' or spokesperson though.

    The problem, societally, is that it is much easier for a rich/powerful person to have an excessive apportionment in their spheres of influence. Because they're the ones that the media focus on, which perpetuates the cycle. And unless those people are willing to pull others into the spotlight, it just gets harder and harder.

    The media SHOULD be going elsewhere for LGBT rights leadership. Jenner SHOULD be promoting local/national leaders of LGBT rights leadership. But until they do, she's going to be the "go to" person.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Agreed. Caitlyn is very naive and still learning. It might be a few more years before she truly understands the meaning of 'privilege', and can form a properly reasoned opinion.
    She has a lot of younger LGBT people spending their time, trying to teach her. It's not like she's sticking her fingers in her ears.

    I don't think she'll ever be able to claim to be a 'community leader' or spokesperson though.

    The problem, societally, is that it is much easier for a rich/powerful person to have an excessive apportionment in their spheres of influence. Because they're the ones that the media focus on, which perpetuates the cycle. And unless those people are willing to pull others into the spotlight, it just gets harder and harder.

    The media SHOULD be going elsewhere for LGBT rights leadership. Jenner SHOULD be promoting local/national leaders of LGBT rights leadership. But until they do, she's going to be the "go to" person.

    She was well known when she lived as a man, and heavily self promoted her transition.

    For all the bigotry problems the US has, we also have an even bigger "not getting it" problem, wherin the people trying to help (or who should be helping the most) keep fucking things up, mudying the water, or underselling the problem.

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Agreed. Caitlyn is very naive and still learning. It might be a few more years before she truly understands the meaning of 'privilege', and can form a properly reasoned opinion.
    She has a lot of younger LGBT people spending their time, trying to teach her. It's not like she's sticking her fingers in her ears.

    I don't think she'll ever be able to claim to be a 'community leader' or spokesperson though.

    The problem, societally, is that it is much easier for a rich/powerful person to have an excessive apportionment in their spheres of influence. Because they're the ones that the media focus on, which perpetuates the cycle. And unless those people are willing to pull others into the spotlight, it just gets harder and harder.

    The media SHOULD be going elsewhere for LGBT rights leadership. Jenner SHOULD be promoting local/national leaders of LGBT rights leadership. But until they do, she's going to be the "go to" person.

    She was well known when she lived as a man, and heavily self promoted her transition.

    For all the bigotry problems the US has, we also have an even bigger "not getting it" problem, wherin the people trying to help (or who should be helping the most) keep fucking things up, mudying the water, or underselling the problem.

    I sort of wonder how her life might have turned out if she hadn't been pressured to detransition decades ago when she first went on HRT and such.

    Like as much as her politics is self-defeating and grating, when she first talked about that a couple of years ago just felt soulcrushing.

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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    @Hevach I can only speak for myself here, but IMO Caitlyn never 'lived as a man'. It's an incorrect (and somewhat tone-deaf) way to describe it. No transwomen or intersex people truly do.

    They were only ever perceived that way, a PERCEIVED identity, and body morphology, pressed upon them by society obsessed with the idea of a binary; and the mistakes of mother nature that lead to a female brain and CNS ending in up in the wrong body (to horrible effect and to sometimes life-long psychological distress and terrible anguish). :(

    And then we get hate and persecution thrown our way ON TOP of that! It's like a 1-2-3 fuck-you knock-out punch, courtesy of the universe. :( :cry:

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    The ruling party in Ontario, the Ontario PC Party, passed a resolution saying they no longer recognize "gender identity theory" because they are exactly the sort of people you would expect in a party led by Doug Ford.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/4673240/ontario-pc-recognize-gender-identity/
    The Ontario PC Party has passed a resolution to no longer recognize gender identity theory, sources tell Global News.

    The vote happened Saturday morning, during the party’s three-day convention in Toronto.

    The resolution says gender identity theory is “A highly controversial, unscientific ‘liberal ideology’; and, as such, that an Ontario PC Government will remove the teaching and promotion of ‘gender identity theory’ from Ontario schools and its curriculum.”

    The vote was adopted as a party policy and is not binding government policy.

    The policy, named Resolution R4, was proposed by Tanya Granic Allen, a former Ontario PC candidate in the June general election who was ousted following what the Ontario Liberals called “homophobic” comments in a 2014 video.
    Saying trans people don't exist is abominable.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I don't have any words for this



    Jon Cooper is the chairman of the Democratic Coalition

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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    How many prison rape jokes from Trump are we going to have to suffer through?

    Why are we considered a paragon of western virtues? Can we please give that title to Norway yet?

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Veevee wrote: »
    How many prison rape jokes from Trump are we going to have to suffer through?

    Why are we considered a paragon of western virtues? Can we please give that title to Norway yet?
    Nobody outside USA has considered USA a paragon of western virtues since, well, forever.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Enlightenment values have always had a precarious hold in the US.

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) I want to cut to the feelingRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    tynic wrote: »
    I don't have any words for this



    Jon Cooper is the chairman of the Democratic Coalition

    not having this protection in place makes me far, far more likely to resist arrest (should that ever happen, god forbid)


    of course, this is going to affect trans women of color WAY more, being as they belong to a disproportionately arrested segment of the population

    this will kill people, by design

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    The politician who had introduced the bill was removed from office byher own party for making homophobic comments.

    ...But I guess her phobic bills are just fine?

    EDIT: Sorry, no, I was confusing this with what just happened in Ontario.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Does anyone know if state prisons tend to follow the federal guidelines on this stuff? Are Indiana prisons, for example, about to get a lot shittier.for trans inmates or were there never any protections to take away?
    Doobh wrote: »
    tynic wrote: »
    I don't have any words for this



    Jon Cooper is the chairman of the Democratic Coalition

    not having this protection in place makes me far, far more likely to resist arrest

    Not having this protection in place makes me far, far more adamant that you do not do that, because that will only increase the likelihood and duration of your need for what is no longer there.
    this will kill people, by design

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    State prisons are administered by the state, so I imagine Indiana never switched in the first place

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) I want to cut to the feelingRegistered User regular
    Does anyone know if state prisons tend to follow the federal guidelines on this stuff? Are Indiana prisons, for example, about to get a lot shittier.for trans inmates or were there never any protections to take away?
    Doobh wrote: »
    tynic wrote: »
    I don't have any words for this



    Jon Cooper is the chairman of the Democratic Coalition

    not having this protection in place makes me far, far more likely to resist arrest

    Not having this protection in place makes me far, far more adamant that you do not do that, because that will only increase the likelihood and duration of your need for what is no longer there.
    this will kill people, by design

    note that I did not ask for advice

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