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The [Freedom of the Press] Will Not Be Abridged

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Trump's attacks on facts and accurate media are extremely concerning.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    If I remember right Obama had a famously adversarial relationship with Fox and they were shut out of a couple briefings. I get why some people are alarmed but denying a highly critical news organization access to press conferences isn't that surprising.

    I mean, we're still going to have transcripts, right? We're still going to have conferences with members of the press. Maybe some reporters don't get to derail it to make fun of Spicer and Dippin Dots, but they're still going to go on and questions still will be asked. I don't think this counts as The First Step to Totalitarianism that CNN claims.

    Trump and his administration has railed against accurate reporting period. I get you're all about ignoring the constitution when convenient, but, call me an old fashioned conservative if you will, I for one find it extremely concerning that Trump's trying to discredit reality and ignoring the constitution to do so.

    Quid on
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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    I don't think press conferences have any sort of legal status in the Constitution.

    So much of our government's interaction with the populace is based on custom (or tradition, as you say) not law. Press conferences are voluntary; they're not a legal requirement as far as I know. I mean, arguably this isn't even a press conference, it's an interview with a few news sources done all at once to be convenient. The White House has interviews on the property all the time.

    I agree that there is a qualitative difference between press conferences and interviews. I would be surprised if there is a legal difference, because what would it be based on? Number of people? Location? Decision to call it a "press conference"?

    No explicit constitutional weight, no.

    But the press works the way it works based on how society functions and how the press has shaped itself within it. Meaning "abridgment" of the press in a modern context relates to the current shape of the press. The press provides visibility into what the government is doing and there is evidence that they are being prevented from doing so in a way that The Press (in aggregate) - which is a wide selection of subjectively left, subjectively right, subjectively moderate, and objectively sterile - is being abridged by selective engagement of the press.

    The founding fathers were either idiots or geniuses. Maybe this was worded the way it was just so it could be malleable in the face of a changing press.

    I think the folks who wrote the constitution didn't foresee (among a plethora of other things) the executive having the level of power it does now.

    It is one of the fundamental reasons why constitutional literalists are out of their gourds. They are making decisions based on a country and government that would be nearly unrecognizable to many people who wrote and ratified the constitution, and drawing conclusions about their intent based on gross assumptions.

    For me the pressing question is whether or not the intent of the line "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..." actually mean the government or not. Keep in mind that constitutionally congress is the only body who should be making domestic law at all, and the president is more in charge of foreign policy with the authority to appoint positions that shouldn't be done by legislators. Domestic policy is mostly with congressional approval.

    So the question needs to be clear, one way or another, whether or not the first amendment is only about congressional actions or if the spirit of the statement was intended to prevent the government as a whole from committing actions that violate the 1st.

    Ideally this isn't something that would have ever needed to be set in stone, but here we are.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    I definitely agree that constitutional literalists are out of their gourd. I also really like the phrase "out of their gourd" for what it's worth.

    But anyway, yeah, I think adherence to a literal intrepretation of "abridgment" kind of shits all over the spirit of "freedom of the press" as a concept.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    It's wrong, but it's also just an incredibly stupid move. What does this do? 1) Makes martyrs of the press and 2) Makes it harder for the press to report on the one aspect that you have the most control over--WH press briefings. Classic tantrum move by an imbecile who can only think in terms of television.

    Not only that, it's making the press more adversarial and prone to skip crap like the White House Correspondents Dinner. That ballroom better be empty aside from Fox News and the Breitbart table.

    It's increadibly stupid but also totally predictable. I think we all kinda knew this was coming or would at least be attempted.

    The first thing I thought when reading this news was back to this article from earlier this week (was posted in another thread yesterday or something too I think):
    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/22/14658062/donald-trump-illiberalism-losing
    The basic point is contained here:
    Klain had a theory that combined Trump’s authoritarian impulses and troubled White House management in a way I found hard to dismiss. In Klain’s view, it’s Trump’s dysfunctional relationship with the government that catalyzes his illiberal tendencies — the more he is frustrated by the system, the more he will turn on the system.

    “If Trump became a full-fledged autocrat, it will not be because he succeeds in running the state,” Klain said. “It’s not going to be like Julius Caesar, where we thank him and here’s a crown. It’ll be that he fails, and he has to find a narrative for that failure. And it will not be a narrative of self-criticism. It will not be that he let you down. He will figure out who the villains are, and he will focus the public’s anger at them.”

    Trump's attacks on the legitimacy of the media are entirely based on the fact that they criticize him. This damages his fragile ego construction and causes him to lash out in authoritarian ways you wouldn't see from a normal GOPer. Like this stuff today.

    Like, this is Trump's standard MO these days on the media:


    The media are the enemy because they criticize him. And so now he's trying to delegitimize and silence them in a very disturbing autocratic move entirely because they criticize him.

    shryke on
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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Yeah he just popped off another one



    It's a pretty deliberate campaign to delegitimize the press

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  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    Captain Marcus on
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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    From the Canadian perspective, Prime Minister Harper spent the last few years of his government shutting the press out of the equation almost entirely. Communication with the press was almost entirely by press release, and the handful of press conferences and interviews towards the end of his government were contingent on the media using pre-approved questions supplied in advance by the PMO.

    The reasoning was the same - those evil liberal media elites are being so damned unfair, what with their being insufficiently adulatory and getting in the way of Important Government Priorities and it's all a conspiracy to slant things away from what we all know the people really want anyway. The goal was about the same - most media of any significance cut out of regular briefings and press conferences (for indeed there were none), with press organizations that lined up with things ideologically given a taste of additional access.

    It turns out that competent journalists do not necessarily need regular manual feedings of cleansed, curated government facts to look into and talk about what the government's been doing.

    It did not go well for him.

    The situations aren't going to line up precisely here. Trump has, for all practical purposes, a state TV news network (I'm going on the assumption that that one won't dare rock the boat too much) and at least a couple of state online news sites who are cheerfully playing along. The proportion of the US population that's unquestioningly loyal to Fox is a lot smaller than the proportion of the Canadian population that's unquestionably loyal to the National Post (or other print media, which on the whole is conservative up here). We were less polarized and doctrinaire a few years ago; that's probably actually different now, though.

    I think, though, that in both cases assuming that shutting out publications guilty of lese majeste and feeding their truth to the loyal ones means the government's actually going to be in control of the narrative is a very, very optimistic belief for the White House to have. Trump will have an easier time of it than Harper did, I think, but that's bearing in mind that Harper's attempt was such an unmitigated disaster that conservative newspapers at the end were only endorsing his party for reelection on the condition that he wasn't in it.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Edit: Wrong thread.

    Drez on
  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    I guess I have a dumb question. How much of this can be Trump's idea? I'm sure he thinks it's his idea, but it seems like the way things have gone up to now, he's just an easily manipulated shill for people he thinks are offering advice and support.

  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

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  • milskimilski Their Will comes, at last, to Earth, to the Neath, as a storm crosses the sea. Registered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    Not to speak too much for Marcus, but the entire concept of "delegitimizing" or "normalizing" anything doesn't tend to hold sway in conservative circles.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    "He's just like Nixon, it's not unusual" is a strange way to talk about the President famous for resigning as a way of escaping impeachment over corruption and who not famously enough sabotaged peace talks leading to the deaths of countless people in order to secure election and who hated the media among others and used the exact same kind of language Trump did:


    Let's not pretend his similarities to Nixon aren't super fucking disturbing cause Nixon was not normal or healthy.

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  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    Using the president that was impeached via the investigation of the press here is frankly hilarious.

    Also completely ignoring the previous example given that was proven false.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    "He's just like Nixon, it's not unusual" is a strange way to talk about the President famous for resigning as a way of escaping impeachment over corruption and who not famously enough sabotaged peace talks leading to the deaths of countless people in order to secure election and who hated the media among others and used the exact same kind of language Trump did:


    Let's not pretend his similarities to Nixon aren't super fucking disturbing cause Nixon was not normal or healthy.

    That's not fair to Nixon, to Trump he's a docile little lamb.

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Yeah I'm going to say if your argument starts with: "well Nixon was like that". Then your whole argument is that we should impeach the shit out of this president, or is totally fucking bonkers.

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  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    NSDFRand on
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  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I guess I have a dumb question. How much of this can be Trump's idea? I'm sure he thinks it's his idea, but it seems like the way things have gone up to now, he's just an easily manipulated shill for people he thinks are offering advice and support.

    I think it's pretty clear while he's totally on board with this, bannon is calling the shots.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    I find it very "interesting" that Trump's defense on this issue is that the First Amendment gives him the right to criticize "fake news".

    Motherfucker, have you even read it? It says right there in plain English that the freedom of the press shall not be abridged. I guess the law only applies to Donald Trump when it helps him and never applies when it would allow criticism.

    "Nobody loves the First Amendment more than me!" Then how about you start applying it to your governance you moist fart rrrggghhhhh

    It's this cocktail of stupidity, hypocrisy, and smug malice that makes me want to tear my hair out.

    joshofalltrades on
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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Ok see. This is a goose of a response. We can get side tracked about Putin sure. You might know more about Russha than me, maybe you don't but have some fun prepared talking points. I could argue that you don't get to a fake democracy controlled by one man over night.

    But that would allow you to avoid answering the very simple question my post actually asked.

    He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And please don't insult me by down playing it as shit talking the press. What we all did here on this forum during the election was shit talking media outlets. Trying to dismantle the free press as a credible check on the executive branch is not "shit talking"

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    cursedking wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I guess I have a dumb question. How much of this can be Trump's idea? I'm sure he thinks it's his idea, but it seems like the way things have gone up to now, he's just an easily manipulated shill for people he thinks are offering advice and support.

    I think it's pretty clear while he's totally on board with this, bannon is calling the shots.

    From other threads and reports, CNN and NYT are what he likes to read and watch. All the time.
    It's a constant assault on his enormous but hollow narcissist ego from the very sources he obsessively consumes and wants to have praising and fluffing him.
    I suspect that Bannon wants to shut them out (or down), but Trump just wants/intends to bully them into submission, so they go back to telling him what he wants to hear, like everyone else does.
    He wants to go back to how it was during the campaign, where they never gave him any pushback and kept dumping on Hillary. He's not getting that anymore and he hates it.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    I honestly don't see excluding press people at his whim as a violation of the freedom of the press. They're still allowed to freely report and publish whatever they want. I do, however, see it as a naked attempt to delegitimize opposition, and combined with his constant defamation attacks, is a pretty transparent attempt to create a de facto government propaganda channel. His plain lies against the press are the act of a despot and have no place in western society, but I honestly don't know what can be done to stop him. It feels like just another example of our government being held together by the basic standards of conduct expected of members of society, thrown on their head because the Conservative side of the government has decided "fuck all that" and can get away with acting like hypocritical, petulant children.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    I wonder how much of the motivation for this is just Donald Trump being petty and not wanting to ever have anybody write anything bad about him, ever, regardless of how true it is, and how much is an actively malicious desire to do the fascist thing and eliminate checks on his power.

    I want to say 80% of it is the former.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    Disrupter wrote: »
    And please don't insult me by down playing it as shit talking the press. What we all did here on this forum during the election was shit talking media outlets. Trying to dismantle the free press as a credible check on the executive branch is not "shit talking"

    We also give media props for doing the right thing, which CNN did on occasion. Anderson Cooper and Brianna Keilar are standouts.

    Harry Dresden on
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

    Certainly. But address the argument put forth rather than conflating what someone's argued with what is easy to argue against. It wasn't argued that Nixon was "normal", it was argued that the relationship wasn't unusual.


    POTUS Obama and the Media
    ...With the chat being off the record, a definitive accounting of what was said is hard to come by; it is clear, though, that the thrust of the president's message was this: Foreign policy is hard, you guys are scoring it like a campaign debate, and moreover, you're doing it inaccurately. He went further, telling the dozen or so reporters that what he favored was a judicious use of American power, and that his primary concern was not to get the country embroiled in situations from which it might take a decade to extract ourselves. He offered up an oddly sophomoric mantra for his foreign policy: "Don't do stupid shit."...

    ...But if the idea was to help shape the coverage, well, then that didn't work either. "Obama Criticized News Coverage During Off-the-Record Meeting With Reporters," flashed Huffington Post media writer Michael Calderone. "Stop whining, Mr. President," Maureen Dowd wrote with glee....

    ...The discomfort here is more than just the ritual excoriation of a second-term American president: It's more jarring, and more lurid, because it runs contrary to the set idea of coziness between Obama and the news media....

    ...I worked in Obama's press operation for four years, two on the first presidential campaign and two as a spokesman at the White House, responding to crises and commenting for reporters, and watching up close the rhythms of the particularly sour relationship between the president and the press....

    ...No, Barack Obama never had reporters eating out of his hand the way that right-wingers love to allege...

    A consistently friendly and cooperative relationship between the POTUS and the press is what is unprecedented. It is also unprecedented for the POTUS to claim that the media is an "enemy of the American people", but at no point that I've read has Captain Marcus argued that it was normal to make that claim.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
    Fencingsax
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited February 2017
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    I honestly don't see excluding press people at his whim as a violation of the freedom of the press. They're still allowed to freely report and publish whatever they want. I do, however, see it as a naked attempt to delegitimize opposition, and combined with his constant defamation attacks, is a pretty transparent attempt to create a de facto government propaganda channel. His plain lies against the press are the act of a despot and have no place in western society, but I honestly don't know what can be done to stop him. It feels like just another example of our government being held together by the basic standards of conduct expected of members of society, thrown on their head because the Conservative side of the government has decided "fuck all that" and can get away with acting like hypocritical, petulant children.

    Without going into the details of what the news stories are about (go to the Russia thread for that), this is the same administration that is asking the FBI -- a government agency -- to quash embarrassing stories by independent news outlets.

    Trump is absolutely and actively undermining the freedom of the press. And I have no doubts today was just the first broadside. Trump, as an authoritarian strongman, has one play in his playbook, and it is not bowing to pressure.

    joshofalltrades on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

    Certainly. But address the argument put forth rather than conflating what someone's argued with what is easy to argue against. It wasn't argued that Nixon was "normal", it was argued that the relationship wasn't unusual.


    POTUS Obama and the Media
    ...With the chat being off the record, a definitive accounting of what was said is hard to come by; it is clear, though, that the thrust of the president's message was this: Foreign policy is hard, you guys are scoring it like a campaign debate, and moreover, you're doing it inaccurately. He went further, telling the dozen or so reporters that what he favored was a judicious use of American power, and that his primary concern was not to get the country embroiled in situations from which it might take a decade to extract ourselves. He offered up an oddly sophomoric mantra for his foreign policy: "Don't do stupid shit."...

    ...But if the idea was to help shape the coverage, well, then that didn't work either. "Obama Criticized News Coverage During Off-the-Record Meeting With Reporters," flashed Huffington Post media writer Michael Calderone. "Stop whining, Mr. President," Maureen Dowd wrote with glee....

    ...The discomfort here is more than just the ritual excoriation of a second-term American president: It's more jarring, and more lurid, because it runs contrary to the set idea of coziness between Obama and the news media....

    ...I worked in Obama's press operation for four years, two on the first presidential campaign and two as a spokesman at the White House, responding to crises and commenting for reporters, and watching up close the rhythms of the particularly sour relationship between the president and the press....

    ...No, Barack Obama never had reporters eating out of his hand the way that right-wingers love to allege...

    A consistently friendly and cooperative relationship between the POTUS and the press is what is unprecedented. It is also unprecedented for the POTUS to claim that the media is an "enemy of the American people", but at no point that I've read has Captain Marcus argued that it was normal to make that claim.

    Again, there's a difference between disliking the media and calling them the enemy of the american people. You keep trying to excuse this shit for some reason.

    That's the argument Trump put forth, that's the argument Nixon put forth and that's the argument Marcus was trying to defend by saying it was normal cause Nixon did it.

    It's neither normal nor healthy. It's disturbing as fuck. The fact that Nixon did it doesn't make it normal, it makes it the opposite.

    ZibblsnrtCommander ZoommrondeauLoisLaneKamarGiggles_FunsworthLord_Asmodeus
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I wonder how much of the motivation for this is just Donald Trump being petty and not wanting to ever have anybody write anything bad about him, ever, regardless of how true it is, and how much is an actively malicious desire to do the fascist thing and eliminate checks on his power.

    I want to say 80% of it is the former.

    Yup. It's Bannon, IMO, who's the other way around.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    Gennenalyse RuebenjoshofalltradesEmerlmaster999Giggles_Funsworth
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2017
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

    Certainly. But address the argument put forth rather than conflating what someone's argued with what is easy to argue against. It wasn't argued that Nixon was "normal", it was argued that the relationship wasn't unusual.


    POTUS Obama and the Media
    ...With the chat being off the record, a definitive accounting of what was said is hard to come by; it is clear, though, that the thrust of the president's message was this: Foreign policy is hard, you guys are scoring it like a campaign debate, and moreover, you're doing it inaccurately. He went further, telling the dozen or so reporters that what he favored was a judicious use of American power, and that his primary concern was not to get the country embroiled in situations from which it might take a decade to extract ourselves. He offered up an oddly sophomoric mantra for his foreign policy: "Don't do stupid shit."...

    ...But if the idea was to help shape the coverage, well, then that didn't work either. "Obama Criticized News Coverage During Off-the-Record Meeting With Reporters," flashed Huffington Post media writer Michael Calderone. "Stop whining, Mr. President," Maureen Dowd wrote with glee....

    ...The discomfort here is more than just the ritual excoriation of a second-term American president: It's more jarring, and more lurid, because it runs contrary to the set idea of coziness between Obama and the news media....

    ...I worked in Obama's press operation for four years, two on the first presidential campaign and two as a spokesman at the White House, responding to crises and commenting for reporters, and watching up close the rhythms of the particularly sour relationship between the president and the press....

    ...No, Barack Obama never had reporters eating out of his hand the way that right-wingers love to allege...

    A consistently friendly and cooperative relationship between the POTUS and the press is what is unprecedented. It is also unprecedented for the POTUS to claim that the media is an "enemy of the American people", but at no point that I've read has Captain Marcus argued that it was normal to make that claim.

    There's a big difference between Obama's and Nixon's conflicted relationship with the media and Trump's. Neither have gone after the media anywhere near what he's doing, that they have dislike for the media does not mean they were equivalent.

    edit: It's the severity of the conflict here, not that it's unusual for a president to dislike the press.

    Harry Dresden on
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Disrupter wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Ok see. This is a goose of a response. We can get side tracked about Putin sure. You might know more about Russha than me, maybe you don't but have some fun prepared talking points. I could argue that you don't get to a fake democracy controlled by one man over night.

    But that would allow you to avoid answering the very simple question my post actually asked.

    He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And please don't insult me by down playing it as shit talking the press. What we all did here on this forum during the election was shit talking media outlets. Trying to dismantle the free press as a credible check on the executive branch is not "shit talking"

    You brought up Putin because you thought there was a real comparison to be made. What Putin has done and what you're arguing that Trump is doing are not even close to the same thing.

    Certainly I agree that Trump is trying to delegitimize media outlets who report on him critically in the eyes of his supporters. That is not the same thing as indirectly controlling the media and having journalists who are critical of him murdered.

    RE
    I could argue that you don't get to a fake democracy controlled by one man over night.

    You could certainly make that argument, but you would be ignoring the completely different circumstances that set up the current state of Russia and the current state of the US.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
    PLAElvenshaeJuliusMrMisterKaputa
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I wonder how much of the motivation for this is just Donald Trump being petty and not wanting to ever have anybody write anything bad about him, ever, regardless of how true it is, and how much is an actively malicious desire to do the fascist thing and eliminate checks on his power.

    I want to say 80% of it is the former.

    The Press isn't really a check on his power so I think it's the first. They are disagreeing with him and his version of reality by criticizing him and his plans and statements and so he attacks them.

    If the press were nice to him, he wouldn't be doing this. He doesn't care about controlling the press, he cares about the press being nice to him. He only reacts like this because they have slighted him via being critical of him.

    Gennenalyse RuebenSpoitElvenshaeRoz
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

    Certainly. But address the argument put forth rather than conflating what someone's argued with what is easy to argue against. It wasn't argued that Nixon was "normal", it was argued that the relationship wasn't unusual.


    POTUS Obama and the Media
    ...With the chat being off the record, a definitive accounting of what was said is hard to come by; it is clear, though, that the thrust of the president's message was this: Foreign policy is hard, you guys are scoring it like a campaign debate, and moreover, you're doing it inaccurately. He went further, telling the dozen or so reporters that what he favored was a judicious use of American power, and that his primary concern was not to get the country embroiled in situations from which it might take a decade to extract ourselves. He offered up an oddly sophomoric mantra for his foreign policy: "Don't do stupid shit."...

    ...But if the idea was to help shape the coverage, well, then that didn't work either. "Obama Criticized News Coverage During Off-the-Record Meeting With Reporters," flashed Huffington Post media writer Michael Calderone. "Stop whining, Mr. President," Maureen Dowd wrote with glee....

    ...The discomfort here is more than just the ritual excoriation of a second-term American president: It's more jarring, and more lurid, because it runs contrary to the set idea of coziness between Obama and the news media....

    ...I worked in Obama's press operation for four years, two on the first presidential campaign and two as a spokesman at the White House, responding to crises and commenting for reporters, and watching up close the rhythms of the particularly sour relationship between the president and the press....

    ...No, Barack Obama never had reporters eating out of his hand the way that right-wingers love to allege...

    A consistently friendly and cooperative relationship between the POTUS and the press is what is unprecedented. It is also unprecedented for the POTUS to claim that the media is an "enemy of the American people", but at no point that I've read has Captain Marcus argued that it was normal to make that claim.

    Again, there's a difference between disliking the media and calling them the enemy of the american people. You keep trying to excuse this shit for some reason.

    That's the argument Trump put forth, that's the argument Nixon put forth and that's the argument Marcus was trying to defend by saying it was normal cause Nixon did it.

    It's neither normal nor healthy. It's disturbing as fuck. The fact that Nixon did it doesn't make it normal, it makes it the opposite.


    Read my post again. The sentence right at the end. You keep trying to frame someones argument in a way you seem to think is easy to address for some reason.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

    Certainly. But address the argument put forth rather than conflating what someone's argued with what is easy to argue against. It wasn't argued that Nixon was "normal", it was argued that the relationship wasn't unusual.


    POTUS Obama and the Media
    ...With the chat being off the record, a definitive accounting of what was said is hard to come by; it is clear, though, that the thrust of the president's message was this: Foreign policy is hard, you guys are scoring it like a campaign debate, and moreover, you're doing it inaccurately. He went further, telling the dozen or so reporters that what he favored was a judicious use of American power, and that his primary concern was not to get the country embroiled in situations from which it might take a decade to extract ourselves. He offered up an oddly sophomoric mantra for his foreign policy: "Don't do stupid shit."...

    ...But if the idea was to help shape the coverage, well, then that didn't work either. "Obama Criticized News Coverage During Off-the-Record Meeting With Reporters," flashed Huffington Post media writer Michael Calderone. "Stop whining, Mr. President," Maureen Dowd wrote with glee....

    ...The discomfort here is more than just the ritual excoriation of a second-term American president: It's more jarring, and more lurid, because it runs contrary to the set idea of coziness between Obama and the news media....

    ...I worked in Obama's press operation for four years, two on the first presidential campaign and two as a spokesman at the White House, responding to crises and commenting for reporters, and watching up close the rhythms of the particularly sour relationship between the president and the press....

    ...No, Barack Obama never had reporters eating out of his hand the way that right-wingers love to allege...

    A consistently friendly and cooperative relationship between the POTUS and the press is what is unprecedented. It is also unprecedented for the POTUS to claim that the media is an "enemy of the American people", but at no point that I've read has Captain Marcus argued that it was normal to make that claim.

    There's a big difference between Obama's and Nixon's conflicted relationship with the media and Trump's. Neither have gone after the media anywhere near what he's doing, that they have dislike for the media does not mean they were equivalent.

    Read the last sentence of my post. Specifically the part where I say that the POTUS openly saying that the media is an "enemy of the American people" is unprecedented. This however is not what was stated, which is that a negative relationship between the media and the POTUS is not unprecedented.

    The 2nd Amendment is unarguably one of the most liberal, liberating and radical statements ever made in human history.
  • Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    "He's just like Nixon, it's not unusual" is a strange way to talk about the President famous for resigning as a way of escaping impeachment over corruption and who not famously enough sabotaged peace talks leading to the deaths of countless people in order to secure election and who hated the media among others and used the exact same kind of language Trump did:


    Let's not pretend his similarities to Nixon aren't super fucking disturbing cause Nixon was not normal or healthy.

    "never let them think that we think they're the enemy" is pretty funny

    like, nixon was smart enough to realise that you have to give people plausible deniability. you can't just come out and say you're a crook

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    So you don't think that Trump is actively trying to discredit the media that criticize him to create a Putin Esque bubble for his supporters?
    The Russian government pretty much runs every major news source in Russia, from the radio to daytime tv to newspapers. So uh, no.
    You honestly don't see his constant war with the press and calling them fake news and the enemy of the people as insanely dangerous and a step towards hijacking our democracy the way Putin has in Russia?
    There wasn't a democracy to hijack in Russia. And eh, he's a little hyperbolic, but then again so are the media. What with constantly calling him the next Hitler or Franco and all but saying that every day he picks up the little red phone and gets marching orders from Moscow.

    He's like Nixon. Nixon hated the press and the press hated Nixon. It's not an unusual relationship.
    Really? For all of Trumps dangers his attack on the media has been the scariest since he first black balled folks in his campaign.
    His refusal to extend New START nuclear weapons treaty based on incorrect information (confused modernization numbers for actual increase) is the most dangerous thing he's done. Refusing to let adversarial members of the press ask highly critical questions of his press secretary doesn't even come close.

    This is crazy to me. He is very obviously trying to delegitimize the media so his followers only have his word to believe. It's insanely transparent. do you not agree that he's trying to do this?

    And that's not what Putin has done. Putin has built a superpresidential system on top of the legacy of Yeltsin, under which his government effectively controls the Duma+FC, the courts, the media, and many previously privatized industries. That someone could think we are currently in even a similar situation as Russia politically does nothing but illustrate that person's ignorance.

    It is one thing to say that Trump is doing what Putin has done and another to say that he's shit talking media outlets.
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man if you think Nixon was normal I don't know what to tell you

    That's not even close to what was written. Arguing that an adversarial relationship between media outlets and the POTUS is not unprecedented is not arguing that X POTUS was "normal".

    Calling the press the enemy of the american people is not normal or healthy in any way, shape or form.

    It is very Nixonian though.

    Certainly. But address the argument put forth rather than conflating what someone's argued with what is easy to argue against. It wasn't argued that Nixon was "normal", it was argued that the relationship wasn't unusual.


    POTUS Obama and the Media
    ...With the chat being off the record, a definitive accounting of what was said is hard to come by; it is clear, though, that the thrust of the president's message was this: Foreign policy is hard, you guys are scoring it like a campaign debate, and moreover, you're doing it inaccurately. He went further, telling the dozen or so reporters that what he favored was a judicious use of American power, and that his primary concern was not to get the country embroiled in situations from which it might take a decade to extract ourselves. He offered up an oddly sophomoric mantra for his foreign policy: "Don't do stupid shit."...

    ...But if the idea was to help shape the coverage, well, then that didn't work either. "Obama Criticized News Coverage During Off-the-Record Meeting With Reporters," flashed Huffington Post media writer Michael Calderone. "Stop whining, Mr. President," Maureen Dowd wrote with glee....

    ...The discomfort here is more than just the ritual excoriation of a second-term American president: It's more jarring, and more lurid, because it runs contrary to the set idea of coziness between Obama and the news media....

    ...I worked in Obama's press operation for four years, two on the first presidential campaign and two as a spokesman at the White House, responding to crises and commenting for reporters, and watching up close the rhythms of the particularly sour relationship between the president and the press....

    ...No, Barack Obama never had reporters eating out of his hand the way that right-wingers love to allege...

    A consistently friendly and cooperative relationship between the POTUS and the press is what is unprecedented. It is also unprecedented for the POTUS to claim that the media is an "enemy of the American people", but at no point that I've read has Captain Marcus argued that it was normal to make that claim.

    There's a big difference between Obama's and Nixon's conflicted relationship with the media and Trump's. Neither have gone after the media anywhere near what he's doing, that they have dislike for the media does not mean they were equivalent.

    Read the last sentence of my post. Specifically the part where I say that the POTUS openly saying that the media is an "enemy of the American people" is unprecedented. This however is not what was stated, which is that a negative relationship between the media and the POTUS is not unprecedented.

    Cite me examples of Obama or other presidents doing exactly what Trump is doing then. Because your Obama example is not cutting the severity here.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I wonder how much of the motivation for this is just Donald Trump being petty and not wanting to ever have anybody write anything bad about him, ever, regardless of how true it is, and how much is an actively malicious desire to do the fascist thing and eliminate checks on his power.

    I want to say 80% of it is the former.

    The Press isn't really a check on his power so I think it's the first. They are disagreeing with him and his version of reality by criticizing him and his plans and statements and so he attacks them.

    If the press were nice to him, he wouldn't be doing this. He doesn't care about controlling the press, he cares about the press being nice to him. He only reacts like this because they have slighted him via being critical of him.

    I also think to some extent Trump is doing the only thing he actually knows how to do when in the public eye -- reality TV.

    He thrives on manufactured drama and shamelessness. That the press is saying (true) things he doesn't want them to say just means they're his enemy, and since he's the President that must mean they're the enemy of the people, too!

    This will only escalate. It's sad that this is what it took for some of these outlets to get a spine and do journalism. If they had done this back in 2016, they might not have the foundational, basic rights that enable their profession under serious assault.

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    青!
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I wonder how much of the motivation for this is just Donald Trump being petty and not wanting to ever have anybody write anything bad about him, ever, regardless of how true it is, and how much is an actively malicious desire to do the fascist thing and eliminate checks on his power.

    I want to say 80% of it is the former.

    The Press isn't really a check on his power so I think it's the first. They are disagreeing with him and his version of reality by criticizing him and his plans and statements and so he attacks them.

    If the press were nice to him, he wouldn't be doing this. He doesn't care about controlling the press, he cares about the press being nice to him. He only reacts like this because they have slighted him via being critical of him.

    I also think to some extent Trump is doing the only thing he actually knows how to do when in the public eye -- reality TV.

    He thrives on manufactured drama and shamelessness. That the press is saying (true) things he doesn't want them to say just means they're his enemy, and since he's the President that must mean they're the enemy of the people, too!

    This will only escalate. It's sad that this is what it took for some of these outlets to get a spine and do journalism. If they had done this back in 2016, they might not have the foundational, basic rights that enable their profession under serious assault.

    From reports in the White House and other reliable sources he wants to be constantly adored and worshipped, he can't handle the mildest criticism. He wants to be a king, not a president.

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  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Just wanna say I appreciate the mods for getting this thread up real fast.

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