Feeling really bad for Aloy in the DLC, she's constantly shivering and talking about freezing.
Funny story...
It's my understanding that if you equip the cold resist gear, that lessens or goes away. I didn't experiment with that myself, but I remember reading it somewhere.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I think that's my only complaint right now. Feels like Demonic enemies have become bullet sponges. Took down a tower and fighting the 3 bellowbacks was painful. I have the Banuk powershot bow and my arrows do 180 ish a hit. With 3 nocked and a full draw, it was only doing a sliver of health. Too me way too long and I mostly had to rely on them forgetting about me, setting up half a dozen trip wires (600 a pop) and having them run into those.
Scorchers don't stop doing their melee charge attacks long enough for anything to affect them. Yeah I can freeze them eventually, after getting smashed into five times, and maybe the ice Spike one-shots them after I manage to charge it up to full ignoring the three times I get interrupted by another melee attack.
But none of that is fun.
Anyway Frozen Wilds done and the story was fucking amazing and the characters were great and Aloy got to clown on Sylens some more. And hoooooooly shit those character animations during conversations goddamn. It's just a shame the new monsters boiled down to: more health, fewer component points, faster and more aggressive. That's not interesting to fight. Glad i'm on easy for the story and didn't do NG+ hard.
They're also never on their own outside that first encounter. Plus the icerail is the very last thing you get. But anyway my complaint wasn't that they were hard to fight. They're not, I always managed it.
It was never fun.
E: Platinum'd. Still have a few dlc trophies and the NG+ ones though so i'll probably get them too.
So at the Star Wars Fan Fest Janina Gavankar, who voiced Tatai in Frozen wilds, was talking to a fan who thanked her for introducing her to Horizon because she never would have played it otherwise.
In response Janina said "just wait til you see the sequel you're gonna die"
Not sure how I feel about the fights in this DLC. Everything else is wonderful, but it feels like the fights are rougher at the same difficulty level. The 3 frostclaw fight was not fun. They have 2 long range attacks along with close range ones as well (made that one harder on myself by burning through all my blaze with the flamethrower weapon). I've also noticed the new enemies seem to change direction mid air when doing a jump attack. I thought it was just Scorchers but noticed demonic longclaws doing it as well. I'll wait for the attack then dodge like normal, but still get hit. Add that they are more bullet spongy, just draws out the fights more.
Everything else has been really great though. The Dam has been my favorite so far; as far as little stories go.
I basically went through the entire base game without touching the ropecaster.
The ropecaster was, for me, civilization in the DLC.
"No, you can fuck off, lay down for a bit, and think about what you've done. Especially while I deal with your buddies."
It got me through the final fight when other techniques just weren't working.
The triple frostclaw fight I mostly won by laying a minefield of ordinance all over while fleeing for my life. Yackity Sax wouldn't have been out of place for that encounter.
I definitely felt the fights were harder in general in the DLC. I'd treat 'lesser' encounters similarly to how I treated Thunderjaws; knock it down, slow time, load it down with about a dozen sticky grenades.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Some of the only old world music left in existence was created by two women who hated their job and set up a bunch of water pipes as instruments before rocking the fuck out while the world ended outside.
I love everything about that.
Aistan on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I basically went through the entire base game without touching the ropecaster.
The ropecaster was, for me, civilization in the DLC.
"No, you can fuck off, lay down for a bit, and think about what you've done. Especially while I deal with your buddies."
It got me through the final fight when other techniques just weren't working.
The triple frostclaw fight I mostly won by laying a minefield of ordinance all over while fleeing for my life. Yackity Sax wouldn't have been out of place for that encounter.
I definitely felt the fights were harder in general in the DLC. I'd treat 'lesser' encounters similarly to how I treated Thunderjaws; knock it down, slow time, load it down with about a dozen sticky grenades.
I tried to make use of almost every weapon at some point. They’re all interesting in their ways. I wasn’t a huge fan of the DLC stuff, except for the modified bows. Those things were sick. The weird laser beams just never hit it for me. But I should try again.
All this talk makes me want to play again. I very rarely play games a second time. But lately nothing really interests me except MTG Arena. It might be a good time to revisit.
Finally finished the game. Man, weirdly long break there in the middle of the final mission haha.
Overall my thoughts aren't much different than my post earlier. The story was great, the characters and little side quests were great. The end was interesting, only in that for the sake of story and streamlining Aloy seemed to know a bit more than I would have thought.
That said, the machines felt like a concession. As it's a DLC vs main game, they mostly just boosted old machines up with more hit points but the new machines didn't feel nearly as balanced. All the bear's were frustratingly annoying. They had every kind of attack and changed direction on a dime. Far away, we got ground gysers and thrown objects. Close up, we got rolls, swipes, elemental spray. The ropecaster really did end up getting a larger role to play. The sad part is that most of the other weapons then were devalued. I hardly ever used the tear arrows or elemental arrows. You couldn't use corruption arrows. My go to trip wires didn't seem to do a whole lot either. The boss fight almost had me quit for the night, you couldn't gain distance as it was faster, you couldn't setup traps as it was always on you, I couldn't get a full draw on my bow nor load more than 2 arrows before I had to shoot. The ropecaster was really MVP in that fight.
In the end I'm excited to see where they go with the next one. This game is easily top 5 of this generation for me. It'll be interesting to see if they stick with Aloy and go a Mass Effect route or a different protagonist. Could be really interesting to have the next one set somewhere else in the world.
Trajan45 on
Origin ID\ Steam ID: Warder45
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
In terms of story they'll have a much easier time of it than Bioware since Aloy's story seems to very deliberately have very little in terms of choices of consequence.
I've grown fond of Aloy so I hope they stick with her. But either way, I too look forward to what the next game will bring. They knocked it out of the park with this one.
I kinda' wish Aloy had personal stakes in... anything, though. She cares about Rost - even as she speaks to him almost as if they were... co-workers, with a certain degree of professionalism - and she obviously likes several of the friends she meets along the way, but we never get the sense that she really gives a shit about any of them on a personal level.
Aloy is primarily interested in satisfying her own curiosity about her mother, and after the full scope of that has been revealed she wants to make sure the world as she knows it isn't obliterated in a second apocalypse. She's an unusual, interesting character because she doesn't have motivations driven by relationships (beyond Rost, and even then...) and while she has a clear and very understandable moral compass that drives her to seek justice for others, that again tends to be more about a general dedication to compassionate morality than whether or not she cares about that particular character (she doesn't).
So part of what makes her such a fascinating hero to me is we really don't know what Aloy wants beyond
1. finding Mom and
2. saving the world.
What does she really care about? What does she long for, or desire for herself?
We have no idea. She's an ally you want in your corner, and otherwise an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
And if she's not the hero of Horizon 2 and 3 I will throw a fucking fit.
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
Literally a Christ figure of her new world is some of the most audacious fucking storytelling I've ever seen from a game.
She is both the child of the God of her new world, and the reincarnation of that God, whose name was Elizabet. What a mind job.
Elisabet, Aloy and GAIA are the Mother, the Daughter, and the Holy AI.
Regarding Concrete Beach Party: Technically, they weren't rocking out at the End of the World, just the end of their world. The automation of the park rendered their positions unnecessary, and they were being laid off. They talked about keeping in touch after they were terminated, and the dates were a few years before the end. Also, they inadvertently killed director Blevins. As a prank, one of them switched some signs for trails, and Blevins went the wrong way and died in a snowmobile accident, his body not being found until the following spring.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I kinda' wish Aloy had personal stakes in... anything, though. She cares about Rost - even as she speaks to him almost as if they were... co-workers, with a certain degree of professionalism - and she obviously likes several of the friends she meets along the way, but we never get the sense that she really gives a shit about any of them on a personal level.
Aloy is primarily interested in satisfying her own curiosity about her mother, and after the full scope of that has been revealed she wants to make sure the world as she knows it isn't obliterated in a second apocalypse. She's an unusual, interesting character because she doesn't have motivations driven by relationships (beyond Rost, and even then...) and while she has a clear and very understandable moral compass that drives her to seek justice for others, that again tends to be more about a general dedication to compassionate morality than whether or not she cares about that particular character (she doesn't).
So part of what makes her such a fascinating hero to me is we really don't know what Aloy wants beyond
1. finding Mom and
2. saving the world.
What does she really care about? What does she long for, or desire for herself?
We have no idea. She's an ally you want in your corner, and otherwise an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
And if she's not the hero of Horizon 2 and 3 I will throw a fucking fit.
Aloy is fascinating to me because it is clear that a decade with her digital device and exploring old world ruins has turned her into the world's first and last Modern Human. It helps that she grew up an outcast, but the entire story is her essentially realizing that all the traditional faiths, beliefs, and cultures are stupid bullshit made up by angry children after their teaching robot broke. Her only real peers are dead people and a probably evil shaman who shares her overall worldview.
That's not a character you see in fiction too much these days.
I'm honestly okay with how Aloy's background was designed... in essence, it was made as a mirror to the main antagonist.
Honestly, Aloy and Sylens were both designed to be two sides of the same coin. Both outcasts, both fascinated with the old ones and their knowledge. The difference being that Aloy was raised well enough to want to see the violence end while not really being beholden or particularly liking any tribe. Sylens is a sociopath and really was only interested in stopping HADES when the AI turned on him, and he realized that the end result would end with all of humanity being killed including himself.
The first game wasn't just a way of setting up the world itself and an ongoing conflict, but also very effectively setting up the primary protagonist and antagonist of the series probably for the next few games. Sylens abhors humanity but doesn't want them gone, so I foresee him using the remnants of HADES to start making his own personal Zoid army for his own purposes. We don't know Sylens' long term goals other than learning as much about the old ones, and now using HADES to figure out who The Masters are that gave the subordinate programs consciousness and free will. My guess is the next game will involve fighting and collecting all other rogue AIs, much like Sylens did with HADES, possibly in an attempt to use them all to recreate GAIA.
Kind of looking forward to this. I played on a PS4 pro, but I hope they give it a bit of the Rockstar treatment with not just some higher resolutions and such but more vegetation and the like.
Part of why I bought a PS4 Pro was to replay the game. I had 100%-ed it on the original PS4. And then Frozen Wilds came out. And then I didn't have time to replay it.
But I think I'll get it for the PC and replay it. It's one of the best games I've ever played and is totally worth it.
Horizon is the game I bought a PS4 for, I played through it three times, and I will absolutely get it on PC.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
I've only done the one full playthrough; I have several aborted runs since it's a pain for me to switch over to the PS4. But like Aistan, it's what I bought the console for and I will be buying it and a controller the instant it's available.
Late to the party as usual, but I've been playing this during my unemployment and I've been completely hooked. I'm nearing the end of my playthrough. Just got the last story mission to do, but I'm pausing to go do the completionist thing and get all the side quests, datapoints, then the DLC before I finish it.
Just got the Shield Weaver suit and as awesome as it is, I do miss being stealthy and being able to walk through most of the world without drawing aggro, so I switched back to the stealth armor and just trying to remember to switch back to shield weaver whenever I enter combat.
Dunno if I would call Sylens evil, but he is definitely amoral and cares only about himself and his own intellectual advancement.
Just finished the getting gold on the Hunting trials and Ikrie's Challenge in the DLC so I think I'm over the hump as far as difficulty, just got the last few story missions on the DLC, then the final regular mission and I'll be 100 percent except for new game. So I'm hoping to get it finished up tonight after the SpaceX launch
This game is not only simply beautiful, but really engaging gameplay. I thought I would belt out the DLC pretty quickly since I was almost done with the game, but the new area combined with the new machines really renewed that sense of exploration and "oh crap, how the hell am I going to beat this machine??"
So far I've only got a few minor complaints.
-When switching weapons, they really gotta pause the game like in Mass Effect instead merely slowing it down to give you a chance to really look around and plan.
-Rockbreakers man, screw them. Just finished the killing the Daemonic version of a Rockbreaker in that one last errand and I think that's the only machine I don't have a solid strategy for except for picking at it's weak spots at range and whittling it down bit by bit attack/retreat/attack/retreat the entire time, hoping to take out its claws so I can shoot at it more often instead of waiting for it to resurface. Which, sure, that strategy works, but it's boring. Meanwhile, I love how I can pretty much engage a Thunderjaw and other big machines at close range once you know the right tactics.
awesome moment last night. Took down a glinthawk in one draw while it was perched with tripleshot. Each arrow just went right to the weakspots and pow. So satisfying
and hey, it looks like there is going to be a comic.
Late to the party as usual, but I've been playing this during my unemployment and I've been completely hooked. I'm nearing the end of my playthrough. Just got the last story mission to do, but I'm pausing to go do the completionist thing and get all the side quests, datapoints, then the DLC before I finish it.
Just got the Shield Weaver suit and as awesome as it is, I do miss being stealthy and being able to walk through most of the world without drawing aggro, so I switched back to the stealth armor and just trying to remember to switch back to shield weaver whenever I enter combat.
Dunno if I would call Sylens evil, but he is definitely amoral and cares only about himself and his own intellectual advancement.
The bond Sylens and Aloy share is the knowledge that all the beliefs of those around them arose as the scribbles of scared children raised by faulty machines. The difference is in how that makes them view others.
For Sylens, it has led to contempt and idolization of the past. He see no value in all the civilizations around him, and he wants a reset so mankind can return to greatness.
For Aloy, the same realization leads her to see the commonality of all people, the flaws in her advanced ancestors, and that the path forward is to help others survive and prosper because better things are possible.
It’s a fun dynamic because they share many of the same goals (rediscover the past to benefit humanity and fix what is broken with the machines so the world survives) and beliefs. It’s just that Aloy wants to proceed with compassion and very, very measured forgiveness for those who abused her in the past, while Sylens wants to burn it all down and build something better out of the ashes.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Just finished the getting gold on the Hunting trials and Ikrie's Challenge in the DLC so I think I'm over the hump as far as difficulty, just got the last few story missions on the DLC, then the final regular mission and I'll be 100 percent except for new game. So I'm hoping to get it finished up tonight after the SpaceX launch
This game is not only simply beautiful, but really engaging gameplay. I thought I would belt out the DLC pretty quickly since I was almost done with the game, but the new area combined with the new machines really renewed that sense of exploration and "oh crap, how the hell am I going to beat this machine??"
So far I've only got a few minor complaints.
-When switching weapons, they really gotta pause the game like in Mass Effect instead merely slowing it down to give you a chance to really look around and plan.
-Rockbreakers man, screw them. Just finished the killing the Daemonic version of a Rockbreaker in that one last errand and I think that's the only machine I don't have a solid strategy for except for picking at it's weak spots at range and whittling it down bit by bit attack/retreat/attack/retreat the entire time, hoping to take out its claws so I can shoot at it more often instead of waiting for it to resurface. Which, sure, that strategy works, but it's boring. Meanwhile, I love how I can pretty much engage a Thunderjaw and other big machines at close range once you know the right tactics.
awesome moment last night. Took down a glinthawk in one draw while it was perched with tripleshot. Each arrow just went right to the weakspots and pow. So satisfying
and hey, it looks like there is going to be a comic.
The inventory system in general has rough edges and is probably the worst element of the game. They really needed two things to work quickly and fluidly: switching weapons/items and switching outfits. Outfit switching takes inventory diving to accomplish at all, and the weapon switching, as you've noticed, has some definite shortcomings.
If that demonic rockbreaker is the one I'm thinking, I just parked on top of the big rock arch in its area and whittled it down. The rockbreakers are really obnoxious to pin down to deal damage and I think I needed some upgrades to hold them for long enough, so I just cheesed the fight. I also got lucky and for some reason there was a Trampler walking along the road, so it was pretty easy to draw it into the fight to deal a stack of free damage. I think that was the only rockbreaker I ever fought, though, as it just seemed like too much work to ever fight them anywhere else (and they seemed pretty rare).
Posts
Dervahl's boss fight is real bad.
Get weapons first, they're all an upgrade. Your power armor should be fine.
I played my first game on Normal, and yeah, the very first fight of that section sets the tone that they are not fucking around.
Funny story...
But none of that is fun.
Anyway Frozen Wilds done and the story was fucking amazing and the characters were great and Aloy got to clown on Sylens some more. And hoooooooly shit those character animations during conversations goddamn. It's just a shame the new monsters boiled down to: more health, fewer component points, faster and more aggressive. That's not interesting to fight. Glad i'm on easy for the story and didn't do NG+ hard.
It was never fun.
E: Platinum'd. Still have a few dlc trophies and the NG+ ones though so i'll probably get them too.
In response Janina said "just wait til you see the sequel you're gonna die"
https://streamable.com/v70v1
Sequel to the best game of 2017 sorta confirmed? I'm shocked!
...
...I guess I'm going to have to buy a PS5
Everything else has been really great though. The Dam has been my favorite so far; as far as little stories go.
The ropecaster was, for me, civilization in the DLC.
"No, you can fuck off, lay down for a bit, and think about what you've done. Especially while I deal with your buddies."
It got me through the final fight when other techniques just weren't working.
The triple frostclaw fight I mostly won by laying a minefield of ordinance all over while fleeing for my life. Yackity Sax wouldn't have been out of place for that encounter.
I definitely felt the fights were harder in general in the DLC. I'd treat 'lesser' encounters similarly to how I treated Thunderjaws; knock it down, slow time, load it down with about a dozen sticky grenades.
I love everything about that.
I tried to make use of almost every weapon at some point. They’re all interesting in their ways. I wasn’t a huge fan of the DLC stuff, except for the modified bows. Those things were sick. The weird laser beams just never hit it for me. But I should try again.
All this talk makes me want to play again. I very rarely play games a second time. But lately nothing really interests me except MTG Arena. It might be a good time to revisit.
Overall my thoughts aren't much different than my post earlier. The story was great, the characters and little side quests were great. The end was interesting, only in that for the sake of story and streamlining Aloy seemed to know a bit more than I would have thought.
That said, the machines felt like a concession. As it's a DLC vs main game, they mostly just boosted old machines up with more hit points but the new machines didn't feel nearly as balanced. All the bear's were frustratingly annoying. They had every kind of attack and changed direction on a dime. Far away, we got ground gysers and thrown objects. Close up, we got rolls, swipes, elemental spray. The ropecaster really did end up getting a larger role to play. The sad part is that most of the other weapons then were devalued. I hardly ever used the tear arrows or elemental arrows. You couldn't use corruption arrows. My go to trip wires didn't seem to do a whole lot either. The boss fight almost had me quit for the night, you couldn't gain distance as it was faster, you couldn't setup traps as it was always on you, I couldn't get a full draw on my bow nor load more than 2 arrows before I had to shoot. The ropecaster was really MVP in that fight.
In the end I'm excited to see where they go with the next one. This game is easily top 5 of this generation for me. It'll be interesting to see if they stick with Aloy and go a Mass Effect route or a different protagonist. Could be really interesting to have the next one set somewhere else in the world.
I've grown fond of Aloy so I hope they stick with her. But either way, I too look forward to what the next game will bring. They knocked it out of the park with this one.
Aloy is primarily interested in satisfying her own curiosity about her mother, and after the full scope of that has been revealed she wants to make sure the world as she knows it isn't obliterated in a second apocalypse. She's an unusual, interesting character because she doesn't have motivations driven by relationships (beyond Rost, and even then...) and while she has a clear and very understandable moral compass that drives her to seek justice for others, that again tends to be more about a general dedication to compassionate morality than whether or not she cares about that particular character (she doesn't).
So part of what makes her such a fascinating hero to me is we really don't know what Aloy wants beyond
1. finding Mom and
2. saving the world.
What does she really care about? What does she long for, or desire for herself?
We have no idea. She's an ally you want in your corner, and otherwise an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
And if she's not the hero of Horizon 2 and 3 I will throw a fucking fit.
She is both the child of the God of her new world, and the reincarnation of that God, whose name was Elizabet. What a mind job.
Elisabet, Aloy and GAIA are the Mother, the Daughter, and the Holy AI.
Regarding Concrete Beach Party: Technically, they weren't rocking out at the End of the World, just the end of their world. The automation of the park rendered their positions unnecessary, and they were being laid off. They talked about keeping in touch after they were terminated, and the dates were a few years before the end. Also, they inadvertently killed director Blevins. As a prank, one of them switched some signs for trails, and Blevins went the wrong way and died in a snowmobile accident, his body not being found until the following spring.
Aloy is fascinating to me because it is clear that a decade with her digital device and exploring old world ruins has turned her into the world's first and last Modern Human. It helps that she grew up an outcast, but the entire story is her essentially realizing that all the traditional faiths, beliefs, and cultures are stupid bullshit made up by angry children after their teaching robot broke. Her only real peers are dead people and a probably evil shaman who shares her overall worldview.
That's not a character you see in fiction too much these days.
And there's no probably about Sylens' evil.
The first game wasn't just a way of setting up the world itself and an ongoing conflict, but also very effectively setting up the primary protagonist and antagonist of the series probably for the next few games. Sylens abhors humanity but doesn't want them gone, so I foresee him using the remnants of HADES to start making his own personal Zoid army for his own purposes. We don't know Sylens' long term goals other than learning as much about the old ones, and now using HADES to figure out who The Masters are that gave the subordinate programs consciousness and free will. My guess is the next game will involve fighting and collecting all other rogue AIs, much like Sylens did with HADES, possibly in an attempt to use them all to recreate GAIA.
Kind of looking forward to this. I played on a PS4 pro, but I hope they give it a bit of the Rockstar treatment with not just some higher resolutions and such but more vegetation and the like.
But I think I'll get it for the PC and replay it. It's one of the best games I've ever played and is totally worth it.
Surely that's just hyperbole.
Just got the Shield Weaver suit and as awesome as it is, I do miss being stealthy and being able to walk through most of the world without drawing aggro, so I switched back to the stealth armor and just trying to remember to switch back to shield weaver whenever I enter combat.
Dunno if I would call Sylens evil, but he is definitely amoral and cares only about himself and his own intellectual advancement.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
This game is not only simply beautiful, but really engaging gameplay. I thought I would belt out the DLC pretty quickly since I was almost done with the game, but the new area combined with the new machines really renewed that sense of exploration and "oh crap, how the hell am I going to beat this machine??"
So far I've only got a few minor complaints.
-When switching weapons, they really gotta pause the game like in Mass Effect instead merely slowing it down to give you a chance to really look around and plan.
-Rockbreakers man, screw them. Just finished the killing the Daemonic version of a Rockbreaker in that one last errand and I think that's the only machine I don't have a solid strategy for except for picking at it's weak spots at range and whittling it down bit by bit attack/retreat/attack/retreat the entire time, hoping to take out its claws so I can shoot at it more often instead of waiting for it to resurface. Which, sure, that strategy works, but it's boring. Meanwhile, I love how I can pretty much engage a Thunderjaw and other big machines at close range once you know the right tactics.
awesome moment last night. Took down a glinthawk in one draw while it was perched with tripleshot. Each arrow just went right to the weakspots and pow. So satisfying
and hey, it looks like there is going to be a comic.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
For Sylens, it has led to contempt and idolization of the past. He see no value in all the civilizations around him, and he wants a reset so mankind can return to greatness.
For Aloy, the same realization leads her to see the commonality of all people, the flaws in her advanced ancestors, and that the path forward is to help others survive and prosper because better things are possible.
It’s a fun dynamic because they share many of the same goals (rediscover the past to benefit humanity and fix what is broken with the machines so the world survives) and beliefs. It’s just that Aloy wants to proceed with compassion and very, very measured forgiveness for those who abused her in the past, while Sylens wants to burn it all down and build something better out of the ashes.
The inventory system in general has rough edges and is probably the worst element of the game. They really needed two things to work quickly and fluidly: switching weapons/items and switching outfits. Outfit switching takes inventory diving to accomplish at all, and the weapon switching, as you've noticed, has some definite shortcomings.
If that demonic rockbreaker is the one I'm thinking, I just parked on top of the big rock arch in its area and whittled it down. The rockbreakers are really obnoxious to pin down to deal damage and I think I needed some upgrades to hold them for long enough, so I just cheesed the fight. I also got lucky and for some reason there was a Trampler walking along the road, so it was pretty easy to draw it into the fight to deal a stack of free damage. I think that was the only rockbreaker I ever fought, though, as it just seemed like too much work to ever fight them anywhere else (and they seemed pretty rare).