The Battle Over Voting Rights (also Gerrymandering)

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    In response to @Sir Landshark -
    enc0re wrote: »
    Look at the Tea Party as an example of a movement that has been very effective at changing a political party, especially when considering its electoral impact in relation to the size of the movement. Did the Tea Party accomplish this by threatening to not vote in the general, and then Republican leaders went "we better cater to these 'swing voters' that might not show"?

    No. Instead they voted, they made it clear that they voted, and they especially voted in primaries. That's how you wield power as an interest group. Not-voting is a stupid way to exercise electoral power.

    The "good cop/bad cop" routine that the white majority parties play when it come to issues that involve these communities always works in the GOP's favor in practice. The Democrats need to start treating these voters as a company would a potential market and create products they like, even if that means upsetting the conservative white moderate votes that both parties crave.

    The Democrats can't afford to "upset" any faction that supports them, particularly swing state factions.

    Well, other than progressives/socialists, who just need to suck it up

    What are the expected swing states this year, and the target demographics in those states? Any chance of FL going blue (last I heard there was some fuckery with the felony re-enfranchisement ballot that passed in 2018).

    There's some...interesting news on the Florida fuckery:
    Following immense backlash from Democrats and civil rights advocates, though, legislators added a conciliatory section to their bill. It allowed courts to modify “the original sentencing order to no longer require completion” of the initial sentence. In other words, courts can waive fines and fees imposed as part of a sentence. By doing so, courts can clear the way for former felons to complete their sentences and immediately become eligible to vote.

    To implement this section, Florida’s four most populous counties created “rocket dockets” to waive fines and fees en masse. Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, and Hillsborough—which, together, make up more than a third of the state’s population—launched programs to identify individuals who owe fines and fees and fast-track their cases to the courts. A judge then waives their financial obligations (except restitution to victims) and provides them with a court order declaring their sentences complete. This order reestablishes their right to vote. Courts, prosecutors, and public defenders all support these programs, and celebrity activist John Legend helped to publicize them by sitting in on a “rocket docket” session. Local officials provide individuals with voter registration forms as soon as their fines and fees are waived.

    Basically, so they weren't being blatantly trying to repeal the popularly approved amendment, they added a clause allowing courts to waive fees and fines. Democratic strongholds immediately created rocket dockets for doing so, while Republican regions refuse to do so - which means that Democratic areas should see increases in eligible voters, while Republican areas won't.

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  • Sir LandsharkSir Landshark resting shark face Registered User regular
    I know it's not ideal, since it lets the conservative areas continue to disenfranchise the poor and minorities, but that's at least pretty promising for all statewide elections in FL for 2020.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I suppose the other question is what determines which courts you can apply to. If it isn't tied to residency...

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    The problem remains that, iirc, the amendment did not say anything about implementing legislation. It should be automatic.

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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Whats stopping individuals or a SuperPAC from getting a GoFundMe to donate to these former felons to get their rights back? Its not a vote bribe if they don't tell them who they should vote for.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    Aside from the fact that they shouldn't fucking have to?

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm wonder how much of that shit being made public will result in a ton of sit the gop did being thrown out. IIRC his shitty gerrymander suggestions ultimately did fall back on what would screw over non-whites, thus being racist as fuck. I seriously doubt he came up with much that didn't ultimately rely on screwing people based on race. I'll have to check, but IIRC racism was the bridge to far for the current court on the GOP's plans to rig the system. As shitty as Roberts is, I doubt he'll have much interest in saving anything that is reliant on racism. Dude seems to value his legacy and seems smart enough to realize that the US won't be a white-ethnostate in the future. So backing anything that is clearly racist to cement GOP power, is probably the surest way to ensure that his legacy gets shat upon all the damn time.

    Didn't Roberts delete the court's ability to rule on gerrymandering?

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Only partisan gerrymandering.

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Florida elected fucking Rick Scott, there's no way in hell we've gotten any better.

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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Aside from the fact that they shouldn't fucking have to?

    I didn't want to imply that, but a charity to get their rights back could go a long way.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I know, just angry at the situation.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Krieghund wrote: »
    Florida elected fucking Rick Scott, there's no way in hell we've gotten any better.

    No, but you have got a larger electorate now.

    Mill
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Also as pointed out earlier, chances are pretty good the more conservative parts of the state will shoot themselves in the foot on this. They are the ones likely to everything they can to keep people from voting because of records and this shit still tends to swipe even some of the GOP's base. So they've just made themselves less relevant in statewide elections. Don't know if it'll be enough to make it harder for republicans to win.

    I could see this setup actually ensuring they run afoul of the Roberts court again though. Roberts is a garbage judge but IIRC he called bullshit on Rick Scott's fealty approach to returning the vote to felons. Chances are pretty good the red parts of Florida will try to keep felons from voting in a way that makes it crystal clear that the goal is voter disenfranchisement if they feel someone doesn't vote the way they want. You have to figure there will be at least one Florida locality that will try the BS fealty thing Rick Scott had going that got them into this mess to begin with. Where they try to make sure the people that would vote for them can be re-enfranchised, while fucking over everyone that won't vote for them.

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited January 9
    I haven't recieved a physical utility bill in ages. I make it all digital when available. Don't need to kill a tree when I'm just going to pay the bill online anyway.

    This made upgrading to the Real ID bullshit a nightmare for me. We legit had to put my name on the electrical bill and then change it to paper for a month because I live with roommates who own the house so my name was on literally nothing and we don't get paper anything either.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    Aside from the fact that they shouldn't fucking have to?

    I didn't want to imply that, but a charity to get their rights back could go a long way.

    A better way would probably be financing some legal teams to put the screws to the state legislature over the whole "we pick and choose whether to recognize binding referenda" thing.

    Leaving it up to charity to refranchise individuals would leave tens of thousands of people in the lurch, and would also probably result in the state government going "see? We don't need to do anything" even more than they already are.

    The moment the results were announced was the moment when those people should have had their voting rights back. The state's obviously not going to recognize that voluntarily, so it's way past time to compel them to.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    Only partisan gerrymandering.

    Specifically, only on merits that Congress has set.

    So a future Dem Congress could pass a law to eliminate partisan gerrymandering and SCOTUS, according to Roberts, would have the power to strike down maps based on that. But only then.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Mill wrote: »
    Only partisan gerrymandering.

    Specifically, only on merits that Congress has set.

    So a future Dem Congress could pass a law to eliminate partisan gerrymandering and SCOTUS, according to Roberts, would have the power to strike down maps based on that. But only then.

    how fucking convenient.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    I haven't recieved a physical utility bill in ages. I make it all digital when available. Don't need to kill a tree when I'm just going to pay the bill online anyway.

    This made upgrading to the Real ID bullshit a nightmare for me. We legit had to put my name on the electrical bill and then change it to paper for a month because I live with roommates who own the house so my name was on literally nothing and we don't get paper anything either.
    I actually had to go to my bank and get them to print a statement with my name and address on it for something similar.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    https://www.npr.org/2020/01/13/795897141/outspending-every-other-state-on-the-census-california-starts-its-own-count-too

    California is so concerned about the feds undercounting on the census they're doing their own census outreach and count.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Wisconsin judge is not happy that elections officials are ignoring his purge. Fining them $250/day until they purge the voters.



    Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reporter.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    edited January 13
    As the most poorly represented state federally, good on them.

    I was wrong, but still I also don't trust the fed to do 2020 right.

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  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Wisconsin judge is not happy that elections officials are ignoring his purge. Fining them $250/day until they purge the voters.



    Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reporter.

    So the judge is ordering disenfranchisement of thousands of people? Wisconsin is 100% not a democracy anymore, huh?

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular


    AP Reporter.

    The phrasing of the tweet is very bad, but the news is good.

    Wisconsin Supreme Court will absolutely fuck this up and will probably drag it out as close to the election as possible.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    "Handing x a win" is such an annoying way of phrasing things. It's not a referee in a football game giving a penalty. The right to vote is actually important.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    The phrasing is appropriate here since this is entirely a partisan exercise.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The phrasing is appropriate here since this is entirely a partisan exercise.

    It makes it sound morally equivalent, though. As if Democrats managed to pull something sneaky and get back at the Republicans.

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  • EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    "Handing x a win" is such an annoying way of phrasing things. It's not a referee in a football game giving a penalty. The right to vote is actually important.

    Yup. It's again one of those "gotta split the difference" bullshit narratives that the media loves.

    Democrats want everyone able to vote. Republicans want noone to vote. So, therefore it's "fair" if half the people vote.

    Either you stand for free and fair elections, or you fucking don't. That Republicans aren't excoriated every time they try this shit, that they're doing essentially the same thing as vote-stuffing, just by subtraction instead of addition, is fucking maddening.

    If people are on the voter rolls incorrectly, and vote illegally, there's already a recourse for dealing with that. That the number of times that happens, compared to the number of people purged from voting rolls, shows this is intentional disenfranchisement, not ballot integrity.

    I wonder how Republicans would take the act of purging of a non-fraudulent voter from the voter rolls, as an act of voter fraud itself? Cause that's essentially what they're doing.

    And any purge less than a year out from a national election (and six months out from any fixed state one), should be illegal.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    kime
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    They tried that. There was a lot of outreach towards conservative Hispanic people from Jeb Bush (who can speak Spanish and whose wife is Hispanic) and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio (who are Hispanic) - but the base hated the fuck out of that and went with the guy who called Hispanic people "rapists" and swore to build a wall between the USA and Mexico.

    Without the option of expanding the base, Republicans *must* reduce the number of non-white people who vote.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    They tried that. There was a lot of outreach towards conservative Hispanic people from Jeb Bush (who can speak Spanish and whose wife is Hispanic) and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio (who are Hispanic) - but the base hated the fuck out of that and went with the guy who called Hispanic people "rapists" and swore to build a wall between the USA and Mexico.

    Without the option of expanding the base, Republicans *must* reduce the number of non-white people who vote.

    They also tried with Muslims. Before Sept. 11, the GOP was claiming that American Muslims were ideal partners for the GOP since they cared about family values and the free market. I think the party is going to need to go at least a single generation without turning the hate train on their supposed allies before it can credibly claim to be more than the white supremacist party.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    They tried that. There was a lot of outreach towards conservative Hispanic people from Jeb Bush (who can speak Spanish and whose wife is Hispanic) and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio (who are Hispanic) - but the base hated the fuck out of that and went with the guy who called Hispanic people "rapists" and swore to build a wall between the USA and Mexico.

    Without the option of expanding the base, Republicans *must* reduce the number of non-white people who vote.

    Yes, we know what they'll do instead. That is still a decision on their part and not a force of nature though. Free and fair elections are good for Democracy not just Democrats.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    They tried that. There was a lot of outreach towards conservative Hispanic people from Jeb Bush (who can speak Spanish and whose wife is Hispanic) and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio (who are Hispanic) - but the base hated the fuck out of that and went with the guy who called Hispanic people "rapists" and swore to build a wall between the USA and Mexico.

    Without the option of expanding the base, Republicans *must* reduce the number of non-white people who vote.

    They also tried with Muslims. Before Sept. 11, the GOP was claiming that American Muslims were ideal partners for the GOP since they cared about family values and the free market. I think the party is going to need to go at least a single generation without turning the hate train on their supposed allies before it can credibly claim to be more than the white supremacist party.

    I... don't think they can.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    They tried that. There was a lot of outreach towards conservative Hispanic people from Jeb Bush (who can speak Spanish and whose wife is Hispanic) and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio (who are Hispanic) - but the base hated the fuck out of that and went with the guy who called Hispanic people "rapists" and swore to build a wall between the USA and Mexico.

    Without the option of expanding the base, Republicans *must* reduce the number of non-white people who vote.

    They also tried with Muslims. Before Sept. 11, the GOP was claiming that American Muslims were ideal partners for the GOP since they cared about family values and the free market. I think the party is going to need to go at least a single generation without turning the hate train on their supposed allies before it can credibly claim to be more than the white supremacist party.

    I... don't think they can.

    Yeah it's the same situation as with African Americans - that bridge has been burned and the ashes salted.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Einzel wrote: »
    If it said giving democracy a win it would be more accurate.

    Yeah, the people who are registered to vote and will continue to be registered are the winners of the Decision. They aren't required to vote for a Democrat and can vote for whoever they want. This would also be a win for Republicans if they bothered to appeal to the groups they're trying to disenfranchise instead.

    They tried that. There was a lot of outreach towards conservative Hispanic people from Jeb Bush (who can speak Spanish and whose wife is Hispanic) and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio (who are Hispanic) - but the base hated the fuck out of that and went with the guy who called Hispanic people "rapists" and swore to build a wall between the USA and Mexico.

    Without the option of expanding the base, Republicans *must* reduce the number of non-white people who vote.

    They also tried with Muslims. Before Sept. 11, the GOP was claiming that American Muslims were ideal partners for the GOP since they cared about family values and the free market. I think the party is going to need to go at least a single generation without turning the hate train on their supposed allies before it can credibly claim to be more than the white supremacist party.

    I... don't think they can.

    At least not without first imploding and breaking up ala Whigs.

    Which IMO has a decent chance of occuring in our lifetime, though I'm not looking foward to the 21st century equivalent of the Know-Nothing-Party.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    It'd be a good thing, for them and in general, if it did as well. One of the natural governing parties of a country having a platform boiling down to "what the other guy said, multiplied by negative one" combined with "what this nation needs is fewer voters" isn't even on the same planet as healthy in a civic sense.

    (And that's before getting into the issue of the GOP increasingly defining a lot of other countries' conservative parties.)

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  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    I Zimbra wrote: »


    AP Reporter.

    The phrasing of the tweet is very bad, but the news is good.

    Wisconsin Supreme Court will absolutely fuck this up and will probably drag it out as close to the election as possible.

    If it is close enough to the election though they may be able to justify not removing people from the lists until the next election cycle after due to disruptions and insufficient time for people to react.

  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    It was a little blatant for the Judge to start issuing fines before the appellate court had a chance to weigh in. He had to have known there was a strong likelihood of a stay being issued to give the appellate court time to consider the case, which means he was trying to force the action to happen so that any possible judgment overturning the case wouldn't matter.

    I also find it telling that the Republicans are attempting to keep this limited to the state courts, where they have a notable advantage in court composition.

    -edit- Good on the guy up for election in recusing himself, though I doubt it matters as even without him the conservative wing has a numbers advantage.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    So...the Conservative Florida Supreme Court has ruled that the Republican exemption to the 2018 ballot initiative stands.
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/478620-florida-supreme-court-rules-convicted-felons-must-pay-fines-fees-before

    Despite that not being part of the ballot initiative. Florida gonna keep Florida-ing.

    The Governor decided to weigh in on the matter, in a truly fucking stupid post.

    "I am pleased that @FLCourts confirms that Amendment 4 requires fines, fees & restitution be paid to victims before their voting rights may be restored. Voting is a privilege that should not be taken lightly, and I am obligated to faithfully implement Amendment 4 as it is defined."
    - Governor DeSantis is well... Governor.

    "Voting is a privilege". Fucking weenie. It's a right.

    So fucking tired of these assholes.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    So...the Conservative Florida Supreme Court has ruled that the Republican exemption to the 2018 ballot initiative stands.
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/478620-florida-supreme-court-rules-convicted-felons-must-pay-fines-fees-before

    Despite that not being part of the ballot initiative. Florida gonna keep Florida-ing.

    The Governor decided to weigh in on the matter, in a truly fucking stupid post.

    "I am pleased that @FLCourts confirms that Amendment 4 requires fines, fees & restitution be paid to victims before their voting rights may be restored. Voting is a privilege that should not be taken lightly, and I am obligated to faithfully implement Amendment 4 as it is defined."
    - Governor DeSantis is well... Governor.

    "Voting is a privilege". Fucking weenie. It's a right.

    So fucking tired of these assholes.

    "Voting is a privilege"

    NO IT ISN'T

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