I think the argument about vehicles vs creatures is that "what makes sense" is pretty wishy washy in 40k. Tanks in 40k have ghost AI's in them that keep on trucken even when the crew is dead. Or they're cobbled together out of orky bits and pieces that are constantly flying apart. Or they're floating triangles MADE OUT OF PSYCHIC WIZARD BONE. Saying something like "Tanks generally don't do that." is pretty irreverent for 40k, because they 'generally do that' all the time (whatever that may be). Mechanically, there doesn't really need to be much difference between a carnifex and a leman russ. They're both big "war machines" that are supposed to suck up a lot of damage and be a cool target. The fact that a russ can technically blow out a track because it looks sort of like something in the real world, is needless granularity for something like 40k. An equally valid argument would be that the carnifex could technically have it's hamstings blown out and be physically incapable of walking. The fact that currently one has this granularity and the other doesn't, is where the disparity lies.
Wanting something to be 'realistic' is different from wanting something to follow a set of logic. Right now, big things in 40k don't follow any sort of logic. Making them better doesnt require them to be more realistic, it requires them to be more logical. When you say "we want things to make some sort of sense" that's logic. There's no big giant space bugs in real life that keep going when chunks are blown off them.
The crux of this whole thing is that it sure has hell doesn't make sense for a dreadnought, a big robot with a guy inside, to be a vehicle, but a dreadknight, a big robot with a guy outside, is a creature.
Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Four wheel drive plus tracks for the ultimate off-roader? Sold!
Gotta say though; if you just want to fix tanks in 40k right now, without changing anything else, give them an armour save: 4+ for basic vehicles, 3+ for Tanks or Walkers, -1 for being open topped or a Flyer.
This fixes small arms fire taking out vehicles with unreasonable efficiency and makes bringing actual AT weapons to bear sensible again.
Brings them right back into parity with MCs as well, since vehicles no longer skip over the save part of the hit-wound-save-damage sequence. To be honest it should have happened about a week after the Wraithlord first hit the table with a W value instead of AV but there you go….
So, to play with the new Armageddon rules is there any Manual sold on its own if you don't want to play as Human or Ork?
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I'm kind of tired of going "Oh no! Bolters!" as a DE player.
I'm kind of tired of everyone ignoring basic weapons in favor of taking far more heavy and special weapons. Bolters are supposed to do a lot of damage and be scary. Yet, all too often, basic SM's are ignored on the table.
I'm kind of tired of going "Oh no! Bolters!" as a DE player.
I'm kind of tired of everyone ignoring basic weapons in favor of taking far more heavy and special weapons. Bolters are supposed to do a lot of damage and be scary. Yet, all too often, basic SM's are ignored on the table.
Heck, even heavy bolters which should be terrifying often end up feeling pretty underwhelming. I'm hoping its something that gets addressed in the next edition.
Given how often anti-tank weapons are used against infantry I'd be interested in a a system where infantry weapons are ineffective against tanks and anti-tank weapons are ineffective against infantry. Like Memoir 44. Such a system wouldn't be 40k though.
Given how often anti-tank weapons are used against infantry I'd be interested in a a system where infantry weapons are ineffective against tanks and anti-tank weapons are ineffective against infantry. Like Memoir 44. Such a system wouldn't be 40k though.
ASL does this, but, of course ASL does this because ASL is also a game where, when you want to fire your panzerfausts at an enemy tank, you first need to roll to check for panzerfaust availability based on what year of the war it is, and then check for if the grain field is providing obscurement based on if the grain is in season based on what month it is.
More elegant systems, like Band of Brothers, handle this by giving your units an anti infantry and anti tank stat to use depending on what you are attacking. But I agree, blowing up infantry with a barrage of krak missiles is pretty darn 40k feeling.
I rarely used heavy weapons like Lascannons on normal infantry as I thought it was a waste
But then I would do things like attack with bolters and sweep in with the assault to clean up with my Black Templars
Also the penultimate Anti-Tank weapon in 40k is a literal point and shoot raygun/magmagun/microwavegun which would have absolutely no problem slagging any fool it was pointed at.
Give anti infantry weapons more shots so there's more incentive to take them. Make boltguns salvo 2/4 and ratchet up heavy bolters to 4/8 and heck, give both pinning. These are supposed to be RAPID FIRING MINI MISSILE LAUNCHERS but boltguns are treated as the standard weapon template.
Space Marines back in 2nd edition, if they stood still, could shoot their bolters twice to everyone else's once. I don't believe rapid fire was a thing in 2nd edition.
I'm not sure if I want to be rolling 40 dice every time a tactical squad opens up. But, I'm not sure if there is a better solution given how 40k likes to have it so each model produces and rolls dice. I think a more streamlined, one die roll system involving squad firepower would be more elegant and better playing but, that's just not how 40k is set up.
Yeah. Rapid Fire was the name of the rule and it was exactly that. If a space marine unit stood still they got to shoot twice. I'm pretty OK with rolling big buckets of dice, in fact I kidna like it. Rolling massive piles is one of the things that makes 40k 40k for me.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
I kind of want to get the Imperial Fist symbol as a tattoo, but I've had some people at work say it looks like a black power symbol, and that's racist (and he is kind of into white life.... so... he knows racism.) And I've had some other people say it looks like a white power symbol.
Yeah. Rapid Fire was the name of the rule and it was exactly that. If a space marine unit stood still they got to shoot twice. I'm pretty OK with rolling big buckets of dice, in fact I kidna like it. Rolling massive piles is one of the things that makes 40k 40k for me.
It's now called Fury of the Legion and is restricted to tactical squads in 30K. Also Tactical squads go up to 20man. So 80 shots inside 12".
Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
Same as any nerd culture related tattoo symbol - Get it on a T-Shirt and wear the shit out of it. If you still like it in a year and if no one has misinterpreted it as a racial symbol during that time than get the ink.
I've had people misinterpret my nerd tattoos as satanic and racist and possibly racist satanic symbols for years. It was mostly the people that had a problem with tattoos in general though.
Just don't get it out of the shirt line so you can still work without offending your boss with your nerd heraldry.
Normally I'd say this is the way to go with tattoos, but things get tricky when you're talking symbols of the Imperium. Fictional or not, the Imperium of Man is a fascist, xenophobic theocracy, and their iconography borrows a lot from real-world examples of that kind of thing. Assumptions may be made about you, and the way things are going in the world right now, it's hard to blame someone for making that kind of assumption. It's definitely something worth thinking about.
Okay, but is no-one going to mention that we actually ARE getting a plastic thunderhawk?
There's not much to say until it's actually confirmed. Even with decent rumor support, until we know what it is and what it's got, there's not a lot to comment on, other than, 'man, what a kit that would be!' & 'it's going to look good next to my resin one!'
The new plastic Thunderhawk will be made out of the same plastics that high grade dildos are made from. It includes ball mounted breast cannons on the fore and aft. With Tentacle launchers nestled snuggly under both wings.
All praises to Slaanesh
If, if Reagan played disco He'd shoot it to shit You can't disco in Jackboots
Looks a heck of a lot like necromunda. Weapons even have ammo rolls and models can hide!
I'd also bet these are pretty similar to the stat foundations we'll see for 8th ed, comparing these to the rumours for that. Some standouts:
-Movement values for models. Doubled for running and charging (see purestrain genestealer)
-Range modifiers for weapons (even the flamer has a to-hit modifier? Good bye clumbsy templates?)
-Save modifiers for weapons
-Damage for weapons
Yeah. Rapid Fire was the name of the rule and it was exactly that. If a space marine unit stood still they got to shoot twice. I'm pretty OK with rolling big buckets of dice, in fact I kidna like it. Rolling massive piles is one of the things that makes 40k 40k for me.
It's now called Fury of the Legion and is restricted to tactical squads in 30K. Also Tactical squads go up to 20man. So 80 shots inside 12".
Fury of the Legion is somewhat different. Fury of the Legion doubles your shots, including rapid firing, but then you can't shoot the next turn. The old rapid fire let you shoot twice, but bolters didn't shoot an extra time at short range. And you could use it turn after turn after turn. So really, it was more of a long range sniping tool then a get up close and unleash a volley move like Fury is. You basically wanted to park your tactical squad in some solid cover and just rain bolter death. Which is really how I think tactical squad should operate, in my head.
http://eagleordinary.smackjeeves.com/
Eagle Ordinary is a 40k fan comic I have been reading for the last year + but I feel this week's is special as it makes fun of the elder and the current state of the army
I'm not sure it's reasonable to extend these highly crunchy Necromunda rule-sets to what we should directly expect from 8th. Here I refer to movement points, etc. Mordheim and old-WHFB were not really the same, for example.
What do you guys think?
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
Pretty sure one of the preview blurbs fo Shadow War said it was based on an older edition of 40k, so i dont think its going to be connected much to 8th rules wise.
I like the idea a lot.
One set of skirmish/rpg type rules for small games, lots of room for customising each individual guy.
One set of mass battle rules for huge armies.
Seems like that Stormcast vs Bloodbound Warhammer pitfighting game is aiming for a similar dynamic between bigger and smaller games?
Yup, i think there will be different factions/teams for it though, so from a hobby perspective they'll probably fill a similar niche, if not rules-wise
Yup, i think there will be different factions/teams for it though, so from a hobby perspective they'll probably fill a similar niche, if not rules-wise
Shadowspire maybe even more if they do expansion sets with custom models (+ cards) that you can use in AoS. Shadow War won't do that I think what whith them using the old Marine and Ork sets in the box.
I was always annoyed in Nercomunda that you had to do WYSIWYG with your gang but getting weapons to fit was a pain in the ass as I wanted a Heavy Bolter for my heavy but the only ones I could get was the off the shoulder rogue trader era one
I wanted the Orlock one but I needed to remove the arms and no one wanted to trade it to me nor I could buy it separately at the time
I was always annoyed in Nercomunda that you had to do WYSIWYG with your gang but getting weapons to fit was a pain in the ass as I wanted a Heavy Bolter for my heavy but the only ones I could get was the off the shoulder rogue trader era one
I wanted the Orlock one but I needed to remove the arms and no one wanted to trade it to me nor I could buy it separately at the time
This is one of the reasons I was excited for a Necro relaunch. They could do some amazing plastic kits now that would really let you customize your gang.
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Wanting something to be 'realistic' is different from wanting something to follow a set of logic. Right now, big things in 40k don't follow any sort of logic. Making them better doesnt require them to be more realistic, it requires them to be more logical. When you say "we want things to make some sort of sense" that's logic. There's no big giant space bugs in real life that keep going when chunks are blown off them.
The crux of this whole thing is that it sure has hell doesn't make sense for a dreadnought, a big robot with a guy inside, to be a vehicle, but a dreadknight, a big robot with a guy outside, is a creature.
(I had this Predator cutway poster up in my room when I got into 40k back in 3rd)
Gotta say though; if you just want to fix tanks in 40k right now, without changing anything else, give them an armour save: 4+ for basic vehicles, 3+ for Tanks or Walkers, -1 for being open topped or a Flyer.
This fixes small arms fire taking out vehicles with unreasonable efficiency and makes bringing actual AT weapons to bear sensible again.
Brings them right back into parity with MCs as well, since vehicles no longer skip over the save part of the hit-wound-save-damage sequence. To be honest it should have happened about a week after the Wraithlord first hit the table with a W value instead of AV but there you go….
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I'm kind of tired of everyone ignoring basic weapons in favor of taking far more heavy and special weapons. Bolters are supposed to do a lot of damage and be scary. Yet, all too often, basic SM's are ignored on the table.
Heck, even heavy bolters which should be terrifying often end up feeling pretty underwhelming. I'm hoping its something that gets addressed in the next edition.
ASL does this, but, of course ASL does this because ASL is also a game where, when you want to fire your panzerfausts at an enemy tank, you first need to roll to check for panzerfaust availability based on what year of the war it is, and then check for if the grain field is providing obscurement based on if the grain is in season based on what month it is.
More elegant systems, like Band of Brothers, handle this by giving your units an anti infantry and anti tank stat to use depending on what you are attacking. But I agree, blowing up infantry with a barrage of krak missiles is pretty darn 40k feeling.
But then I would do things like attack with bolters and sweep in with the assault to clean up with my Black Templars
I'm not sure if I want to be rolling 40 dice every time a tactical squad opens up. But, I'm not sure if there is a better solution given how 40k likes to have it so each model produces and rolls dice. I think a more streamlined, one die roll system involving squad firepower would be more elegant and better playing but, that's just not how 40k is set up.
Not sure what to do here.
It's now called Fury of the Legion and is restricted to tactical squads in 30K. Also Tactical squads go up to 20man. So 80 shots inside 12".
Same as any nerd culture related tattoo symbol - Get it on a T-Shirt and wear the shit out of it. If you still like it in a year and if no one has misinterpreted it as a racial symbol during that time than get the ink.
Just don't get it out of the shirt line so you can still work without offending your boss with your nerd heraldry.
Normally I'd say this is the way to go with tattoos, but things get tricky when you're talking symbols of the Imperium. Fictional or not, the Imperium of Man is a fascist, xenophobic theocracy, and their iconography borrows a lot from real-world examples of that kind of thing. Assumptions may be made about you, and the way things are going in the world right now, it's hard to blame someone for making that kind of assumption. It's definitely something worth thinking about.
There's not much to say until it's actually confirmed. Even with decent rumor support, until we know what it is and what it's got, there's not a lot to comment on, other than, 'man, what a kit that would be!' & 'it's going to look good next to my resin one!'
All praises to Slaanesh
I still have it and the Land Raider one
I found them nearly rolled up when I was going through the various boxes of 40k stuff I had from 6 years ago
Looks a heck of a lot like necromunda. Weapons even have ammo rolls and models can hide!
I'd also bet these are pretty similar to the stat foundations we'll see for 8th ed, comparing these to the rumours for that. Some standouts:
-Movement values for models. Doubled for running and charging (see purestrain genestealer)
-Range modifiers for weapons (even the flamer has a to-hit modifier? Good bye clumbsy templates?)
-Save modifiers for weapons
-Damage for weapons
Fury of the Legion is somewhat different. Fury of the Legion doubles your shots, including rapid firing, but then you can't shoot the next turn. The old rapid fire let you shoot twice, but bolters didn't shoot an extra time at short range. And you could use it turn after turn after turn. So really, it was more of a long range sniping tool then a get up close and unleash a volley move like Fury is. You basically wanted to park your tactical squad in some solid cover and just rain bolter death. Which is really how I think tactical squad should operate, in my head.
Eagle Ordinary is a 40k fan comic I have been reading for the last year + but I feel this week's is special as it makes fun of the elder and the current state of the army
What do you guys think?
I like the idea a lot.
One set of skirmish/rpg type rules for small games, lots of room for customising each individual guy.
One set of mass battle rules for huge armies.
Seems like that Stormcast vs Bloodbound Warhammer pitfighting game is aiming for a similar dynamic between bigger and smaller games?
Shadowspire maybe even more if they do expansion sets with custom models (+ cards) that you can use in AoS. Shadow War won't do that I think what whith them using the old Marine and Ork sets in the box.
I wanted the Orlock one but I needed to remove the arms and no one wanted to trade it to me nor I could buy it separately at the time
This is one of the reasons I was excited for a Necro relaunch. They could do some amazing plastic kits now that would really let you customize your gang.
It's like... logic has taken hold.