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[Iron Fist] The Last Defender

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Posts

  • TexiKenTexiKen Every day they will test you. Every day they will push you to the brink. You must fight them, DJ. Fight them.Registered User regular
    Richard Dragon could totally kick Danny Rand's ass.

    7yIqEnf.jpg
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    The change in characterization I wish they had made was to actually drive home the idea that Danny is split into two parts. The Kid Danny, Western Danny, who's naive and averse to conflict and just kinda wants everyone to be his replacement family for his parents that he lost. And then Eastern Danny, the adult, the guy who's been a warrior monk for 15 years, uncompromising in a very old world kind of way. The dude who watches a Kung Fu movie where the old master will kill his pupil if they don't learn the lesson properly and is like, Yeup, that seems reasonable.

    I like the idea that it is not Western Danny that cares about getting back control of Rand Corp. Western Danny just wants a family. It's warrior monk Danny who's focused on getting the company back. It's still not about the money - The show has hints that he's actually uncomfortable and ill-at-ease in his luxury apartment, and as an ascetic monk he doesn't have anything he wants to buy for himself. It's the family legacy, the name, that it is inheritance from his father. It's because of that that Warrior Monk Danny insists on gaining control of a company he doesn't have any personal desire for - because it's in service to the family legacy, an act of filial piety to not throw away what his dad built, even though it makes him miserable.

    Instead of... Whatever it is Iron Fist did, I wish the show had set up more of a contrast between Danny at Rand Co., and Danny at Colleen's dojo. Even though she's a big softy on her students, she's strict with herself, and her dojo still has a sort of discipline and order that Danny understands and is comfortable with. He'd genuinely prefer to work in the dojo as an assistant teacher scraping by over having his luxury apartment. And then explore how Danny's own strict traditionalism in the dojo brings him into conflict with Colleen, even as she also appreciates that dedication to being a martial artist. And how do Colleen's students feel about this weird white kung fu guy who's hanging out with their sensei now? Do they resent his hard-assedness, or are they fascinated by him being a badass and want to move beyond Colleen's more gentle instruction? And is that good for them or not?

    Like, Daredevil hits people too, but the showrunners were pretty purposeful in focusing more on DD as drawing from boxing / kickboxing, which speaks to his own family history. Matt's a fighter, a scrapper, he's not a martial artist. Danny and Colleen are martial artists, and a show that actually explored those ideas would be really interesting, and give a unique perspective on their characters larger struggles to place themselves in the modern world.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    RchanenThisSiska
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Yeah there is no meaningful conflict in Danny because we have idea what motivates the character. He's too much of a blank slate, so when we do see some kind of emotion or action, it'd hard to place it in any context short of "well I guess he's angry now?".

    Legit question:
    Why does Danny Rand want to own Rand Enterprises? Do we even know this by the end of the show? The only thing he ever says is something like, "Because it was my daddy's and it has my name on it!"

    a.k.a. Antaeus or Nubmonger

    -A digital receiver in an analog world.
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Yeah there is no meaningful conflict in Danny because we have idea what motivates the character. He's too much of a blank slate, so when we do see some kind of emotion or action, it'd hard to place it in any context short of "well I guess he's angry now?".

    Legit question:
    Why does Danny Rand want to own Rand Enterprises? Do we even know this by the end of the show? The only thing he ever says is something like, "Because it was my daddy's and it has my name on it!"

    Yeah the show is SUPER focused on characters doing things, and almost entirely neglects setting up "Why do characters want to do this?" and "How do they feel about that?"

    I think that's why Ward comes across as one of the better characters, because sure he's not that interesting, but at least you get inside his head a little.

    The script really feels like a rough draft. I wonder how long it was finished before they started filming, it just breaks so many basic storytelling concepts it really seems like a rough draft.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
    Dracomicron
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    It's lazy to write what you know?

    Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with whether it is good.

    Because other than the casting issue, Iron Fist has been known for having the best writing of all time?

    And you seem to miss the part where it's 2017, where superheroes are no longer the cult niche they used to be, and Netflix is free to hire whoever they damn well please on their cast or writing staff. Including writers who are familiar with Asian culture, or actors who have martial arts experience.

    It's not necessarily lazy for a white guy to only write about his experiences as a white person. But it is very lazy for a TV producer/show-runner to only hire people who can write that specific experience.

    Schrodinger on
    Harry Dresden
  • ThisThis BLUDGEON Registered User regular
    So quite honestly, my main takeaway from this series was what I posted previously ("God jesus Jessica Henwick is attractive."). But on to some actual thoughts on the show:

    Overall, good not great. Which is disappointing, since every previous Netflix Marvel show has been some level of great. That's not to say that Iron Fist does not contain greatness, however.

    #1 Greatness: Tom Pelphrey as Ward Meachum. This guy put in an absolutely stellar performance. He was given the most interesting material in the show, and he took it and rung out every drop of awesomeness there was, drank it, and then sweated it out of his pores. Series spoilers:
    Ward's character had to deal with a lot of crazy shit, and Pelphrey was able to really show us how that affected him in an incredibly convincing way. Seeing a severed head on a spike fucked him up, and you could see that in subsequent scenes. His conflicted loyalties and feelings about his father were portrayed beautifully.
    His sarcasm was really funny at times as well. I just can't say enough great things about his role in this show. The most impressive performance I've seen in anything in a while.

    #2 Greatness: David Wenham as
    Harold Meachum. He nailed the charismatic/intimidating manipulator role. Supreme confidence and certainty of his own capability, socially dominant, and dangerously unpredictable. I loved the way he would dismiss someone's thought or idea with a parental "No no no, ..."

    #3 Greatness: Jessica Henwick as Colleen Wing. And not just because she's seemingly custom-built to trip my attraction sensors (but honestly it's hard to separate that out). One thing I really appreciated about her acting was her accent. I know she's actually English, but she wasn't just doing a broad "American" accent. Her character I believe was supposed to have been born in China and then raised at least for a few years in Japan or something like that before coming to the States. And her accent actually sounds like it - there are subtleties to her pronunciation that are reminiscent of people I know who have that kind of background, where English wasn't their native language but they've been immersed in it and using it long enough that they're at a native-speaker level. I don't know if this was something she thought about, or if it's just a happy accident, but either way I'm impressed.

    #4 Greatness: The set design and lighting of
    Harold Meachum's secret lair. That place was just beautiful - I never got tired of looking at it. It's one of the most gorgeous living spaces I've seen, but I could still feel the claustrophobia of it's prison-ness

    Unfortunately all of this greatness was weighed down by some serious badness.

    #1 Badness: The writing of Danny Rand. First few episode spoilers
    What the hell did he want? He never tells anyone what he wants, and no one ever asks him. Other than that he wanted Joy and Ward to recognize him. Apparently he wanted control of the company? I was so aggravated every time he said something like "You don't understand!" "It's not about money!" or whatever, and no one said "Okay, so what is it about? What exactly do you want?"
    series spoilers
    As others have mentioned, by not really showing us anything of Danny's time in K'un L'un, or telling us why he left, it's hard to care about it in any way. Showing us that one scene of the monks smacking the kid on the back with sticks doesn't cut it. We could have had a lot more insight into Danny's present state of mind had we seen more of what he went through. We'd care a lot more about the fact that the pass is unguarded if we had some kind of investment in the place. Last episode spoiler
    Seeing the smoking crater of K'un L'un didn't really have any impact because I never saw the place before anyway.

    #2 Badness: The total unbelievability of Finn Jones as a kung fu master. I'm no martial artist, but I've seen people who know what they're doing practicing Tai Chi. There's a grace and relaxed mix of ease and power to their movements. Jones looked more like a very keen beginner, like he was trying super-hard to do something that he just started learning. I don't blame the actor, I'm sure he was doing his absolute best given how much time he had to prepare. But this was a monumental fuck-up from the production side. You can't tell me over and over that a guy is the master of Kung Fu but show me a guy who clearly is just learning.

    #3 Badness: unrelated to martial arts, Finn Jones's performance. It would be easier to swallow the lack of martial arts ability if the rest of the performance was really good, but sadly it was pretty weak too. In contrast to Jessica Henwick, Jones's American accent is not great. I can hand-wave it by saying, well, he spent 15 years in K'un L'un so his accent should be a bit weird - anyway it's not a huge problem, but unconvincing accents are a pet-peeve of mine. To give him some credit, the writing he's given is pretty bad, and the character as written is seemingly supposed to be unlikeable and weird. He wasn't awful, but at best he was... alright. And at that point, I don't feel like we'd have lost anything by just hiring an actor with martial arts training.

    So I enjoyed watching it. There's a lot there to like, but it's rough when there are such severe problems with the main character and concept. I do wonder how it would be perceived (including by me) if there had never been a Daredevil, Jessica Jones, or Luke Cage to live up to. If this had been released as the first Marvel Netflix show, would it be more impressive? How much of the disappointment comes from the fact that it's not as good as the other shows? Even with all its flaws it's still better than a lot of what's out there. Interesting to think about.

    TexiKenKanaMcFodderBethrynHarry DresdenForarCauld
  • McFodderMcFodder 'SploringRegistered User regular
    Agreed on point number 4, I felt like in general the direction was fairly bland compared to the way colour and lighting have been used (especially in DD, but the others too) but that place always looked fantastic.

    The general direction did seem to improve as the series went on, which my fiancee took as being related to Danny starting to find his feet as well, but I think that's being overly generous.

    NNID/PSN: Fodder185
  • TexiKenTexiKen Every day they will test you. Every day they will push you to the brink. You must fight them, DJ. Fight them.Registered User regular
    hay guise, is it Madam Gao or Madam Gout, m i rite?

    7yIqEnf.jpg
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
    Harry DresdenSchrodingerTransporterEvil Multifarious
  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Finished the series. Had fun, didn't love it. It's weird though, I never really became invested in Danny? Like for most of the series, I was more interested in the Meachums and Colleen Wing. I wanted to know what they were *doing*, but I wanted to know what would happen *to* Danny.

    Detailed thoughts in spoilers.
    That sort of goes hand in hand with my strongest criticism, which is that it's unclear who Danny's antagonist is. Is it himself (rage, guilt, etc)? Harold? Ward? Western / capitalist society? Bakuto? Gao? The Hand? And since I tend to characterize by antagonists (what they fight defines them), Danny just feels all over the place. Joy is fighting for respect, and to make her idea of her father proud. Ward's constant conflict with his father comes out as both an internal (substance abuse) probably as well as external one (murder). Danny goes up against all of them at one point in time or another, without any focus on what it is he's doing.

    The last episode is framed as Harold being the "big bad," but then we get the conflicting message of Ward getting the external catharsis - he finally kills his father, and gets to do it as a hero instead of a villain. The narrative forgives him, and sets him up with Danny as an honest? reflection of their father's friendship. But does he earn that? Ward feels like he gets more of an arc than Danny does.

    And then we get the unsatisfying ending of Danny and Colleen visiting K'un Lun, only to find it gone.

    Yeah. I think you can tell a good story with similar elements, but what we got just felt full of misfires.

    Siska
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus My baby, please show you to me fast. Registered User regular
    Episode 10:
    Really glad to see they kept up their quota of black supporting character killed off. :confused:

    pregoptimussig.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Richard Dragon could totally kick Danny Rand's ass.

    He couldn't take Melinda May.

    Edit: She'd be a better Iron Fist than this Danny Rand.

    Harry Dresden on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    The change in characterization I wish they had made was to actually drive home the idea that Danny is split into two parts. The Kid Danny, Western Danny, who's naive and averse to conflict and just kinda wants everyone to be his replacement family for his parents that he lost. And then Eastern Danny, the adult, the guy who's been a warrior monk for 15 years, uncompromising in a very old world kind of way. The dude who watches a Kung Fu movie where the old master will kill his pupil if they don't learn the lesson properly and is like, Yeup, that seems reasonable.

    I like the idea that it is not Western Danny that cares about getting back control of Rand Corp. Western Danny just wants a family. It's warrior monk Danny who's focused on getting the company back. It's still not about the money - The show has hints that he's actually uncomfortable and ill-at-ease in his luxury apartment, and as an ascetic monk he doesn't have anything he wants to buy for himself. It's the family legacy, the name, that it is inheritance from his father. It's because of that that Warrior Monk Danny insists on gaining control of a company he doesn't have any personal desire for - because it's in service to the family legacy, an act of filial piety to not throw away what his dad built, even though it makes him miserable.

    Instead of... Whatever it is Iron Fist did, I wish the show had set up more of a contrast between Danny at Rand Co., and Danny at Colleen's dojo. Even though she's a big softy on her students, she's strict with herself, and her dojo still has a sort of discipline and order that Danny understands and is comfortable with. He'd genuinely prefer to work in the dojo as an assistant teacher scraping by over having his luxury apartment. And then explore how Danny's own strict traditionalism in the dojo brings him into conflict with Colleen, even as she also appreciates that dedication to being a martial artist. And how do Colleen's students feel about this weird white kung fu guy who's hanging out with their sensei now? Do they resent his hard-assedness, or are they fascinated by him being a badass and want to move beyond Colleen's more gentle instruction? And is that good for them or not?

    Like, Daredevil hits people too, but the showrunners were pretty purposeful in focusing more on DD as drawing from boxing / kickboxing, which speaks to his own family history. Matt's a fighter, a scrapper, he's not a martial artist. Danny and Colleen are martial artists, and a show that actually explored those ideas would be really interesting, and give a unique perspective on their characters larger struggles to place themselves in the modern world.

    I think the show did a lot of what you are talking about. I think they didn't emphasize or clarify those ideas as much as it should have, but there's very much a divide throughout the show between Danny Rand and the Iron Fist.
    The thing is, the Iron Fist doesn't give a shit about Rand. It's Danny Rand, naive young boy, who abandons his duty and returns home to see his family. He's the one happy looking hippy who walks in the front door in the first scene of the entire series. And it's Danny Rand we see most of the time at Rand, just trying to be a good person and being naive as fuck and generally fucking it all up.

    The Iron Fist comes out as other things begin to occur and as the threat of the Hand suddenly appears before his eyes despite him not expecting it to be there.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    people keep asking why danny returned
    i haven't quite finished but danny says to someone that the opportunity to leave only comes up every 15 years, so it was now or when he was much older. he wants to find out what happened to his company that he cares about. its pretty flimsy but he says this multiple times, he wants to do good.

    FroThulhushrykeOptimusZed
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Jessica Henwick shows the results of training for countless hours:

    a.k.a. Antaeus or Nubmonger

    -A digital receiver in an analog world.
    ZampanovHarry DresdenjdarksunOptimusZedjungleroomxEriktheVikingGamerThawmusAtomikaTransporterShadowenArdolUselesswarriorCanadianWolverinejjae2123Forar
  • jammujammu Registered User regular
    15 minute montage later... Now you're ready for all the action scenes.

    iHINL4v.png
  • KadokenKadoken Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    The change in characterization I wish they had made was to actually drive home the idea that Danny is split into two parts. The Kid Danny, Western Danny, who's naive and averse to conflict and just kinda wants everyone to be his replacement family for his parents that he lost. And then Eastern Danny, the adult, the guy who's been a warrior monk for 15 years, uncompromising in a very old world kind of way. The dude who watches a Kung Fu movie where the old master will kill his pupil if they don't learn the lesson properly and is like, Yeup, that seems reasonable.

    I like the idea that it is not Western Danny that cares about getting back control of Rand Corp. Western Danny just wants a family. It's warrior monk Danny who's focused on getting the company back. It's still not about the money - The show has hints that he's actually uncomfortable and ill-at-ease in his luxury apartment, and as an ascetic monk he doesn't have anything he wants to buy for himself. It's the family legacy, the name, that it is inheritance from his father. It's because of that that Warrior Monk Danny insists on gaining control of a company he doesn't have any personal desire for - because it's in service to the family legacy, an act of filial piety to not throw away what his dad built, even though it makes him miserable.

    Instead of... Whatever it is Iron Fist did, I wish the show had set up more of a contrast between Danny at Rand Co., and Danny at Colleen's dojo. Even though she's a big softy on her students, she's strict with herself, and her dojo still has a sort of discipline and order that Danny understands and is comfortable with. He'd genuinely prefer to work in the dojo as an assistant teacher scraping by over having his luxury apartment. And then explore how Danny's own strict traditionalism in the dojo brings him into conflict with Colleen, even as she also appreciates that dedication to being a martial artist. And how do Colleen's students feel about this weird white kung fu guy who's hanging out with their sensei now? Do they resent his hard-assedness, or are they fascinated by him being a badass and want to move beyond Colleen's more gentle instruction? And is that good for them or not?

    Like, Daredevil hits people too, but the showrunners were pretty purposeful in focusing more on DD as drawing from boxing / kickboxing, which speaks to his own family history. Matt's a fighter, a scrapper, he's not a martial artist. Danny and Colleen are martial artists, and a show that actually explored those ideas would be really interesting, and give a unique perspective on their characters larger struggles to place themselves in the modern world.

    I feel like DD has enough in his repetoire from his tutoring under Stick to be considered MMA at the very least. Fancy kicks and all that.

    Fuck. I want to rewatch Daredevil now. It's like someone made Dredd then decided "Hey lets make a Stallone version of this movie, it will be just as rad!"

    Harry Dresden
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    people keep asking why danny returned
    i haven't quite finished but danny says to someone that the opportunity to leave only comes up every 15 years, so it was now or when he was much older. he wants to find out what happened to his company that he cares about. its pretty flimsy but he says this multiple times, he wants to do good.
    It's a flimsy explanation and it's hardly the definite answer to what he does, half the time he doesn't know what he wants. During the 6 eps I watched he'd mostly been ricocheting around to whatever he met and reacting to them and events, rather than have a straight line of motivation like the other protagonists.

    Thankfully they finally nailed down some of his motivation and coherency and he stopped acting like an entitled baby by ep 6, which in inexcusable for a Marvel show, never mind a Netflix show. AoS may have stumbled out of the gate in their early episodes but they weren't this unorganized with their characters motivations or story coherency. And they were a fucking mess on that front for a long time.

    It was a relief to have episodes where Danny had definite structure, and purpose and he was someone I could start to cheer for. Too bad this Danny wasn't there form the start. I'm really starting to believe Finn would be a great Danny Rand with the right material.
    I loved how ward called him Tarzan.

    Ep 6
    Things are beginning to get on track structurally, the quality's improved, it's coherent and the characters are started to find their groove.

    The sequences with the doctor storyline was exciting, though scenes where Claire and Colleen away from Danny were together felt like they were from a better show.

    Danny's starting to be slightly formidable with his IF, but I still don't believe he's on DD's level at this stage. I liked the set up idea with the tournament showing the traditions and inner workings of the Hand society and the assassins were interesting. Though the next time the Bride shows up she had better be vastly superior to this performance. While the Mortal Kombat gauntlet was enjoyable to watch it was still so vastly low quality of a show of this pedigree deserves. This is not a low budget CW reject from the 90's, it's Iron Fist.

    I liked Hoon Lee's The Thunderer, his speeches and talks with IF were amazing - except when they put the actor in the scenes then it robbed the actor/character of his strength. It's like he was appearing in a low budget play, they should have kept him as a voice over instead. They didn't have the budget to make this work visually.

    I also liked how they delved into what the Iron Fist is and how it relates to Danny. That was intriguing. We should have seen this from his first scene in ep 1.

    Siska
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    This wrote: »
    #2 Badness: The total unbelievability of Finn Jones as a kung fu master. I'm no martial artist, but I've seen people who know what they're doing practicing Tai Chi. There's a grace and relaxed mix of ease and power to their movements. Jones looked more like a very keen beginner, like he was trying super-hard to do something that he just started learning. I don't blame the actor, I'm sure he was doing his absolute best given how much time he had to prepare. But this was a monumental fuck-up from the production side. You can't tell me over and over that a guy is the master of Kung Fu but show me a guy who clearly is just learning.

    It's really glaring during the training, when you look at Danny's movements and his teacher's movements.

    And they don't match up at all.

    DracomicronKanaGiggles_Funsworth
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    It just makes no sense why they didn't cast someone with a martial arts, acrobatic, gymnastic, or at least dance or general athletic background if they had to start shooting so soon after casting.

    Harry DresdenInquisitor77MagellDracomicronGiggles_FunsworthShadowen
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    It's lazy to write what you know?

    Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with whether it is good.

    It's not about being good, that's a separate issue - it's about staying in your comfort zone rather than adapting to the times. What a person's comfort zone is can be overtly and/or covertly elected by their politics, or simply being lazy.

    The other Netflix series weren't this tepid around topics like racial and sexual politics. You don't need to refer to Marvel comic history to show that this pays off splendidly*.

    5532943ea0839f6d54c57c8005223659.jpg

    MV5BMTcyMzc1MjI5MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMzE4ODY2OTE@._V1_UY268_CR3,0,182,268_AL_.jpg

    DD does this to a lesser extent. AoS and Agent Carter, too.

    That's why it's so puzzling why Marvel's completely drop the ball on that front with IF, whether it's from the upper management, Scott Buck himself or a mixture between the two.

    Yes, IF was a really tough IP to get right but they shouldn't be this clueless or unprepared.

    * and the film division's getting a front row seat with Black Panther and Captain Marvel

    edit: I'd really like to see the pitches Loeb was given before Scott Buck's.

    Harry Dresden on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular

    Harry Dresden
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    But please, keep filling your posts with "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" and assumptions about people you disagree with.

    The Iron Fist literally
    Episode 13
    ran up to the bad guy, who has no superpowers, AND KNOCKED HIM DOWN.

    AND THEN INSTEAD OF FINISHING THE FIGHT HE JUST RAN AWAY.

    That's what I'm LOLOLOLOLOLing about. I think that's a perfectly justified opinion. I'm laughing because it's absurd. This is the final fight in the show and he's up against a literal nobody in terms of hand-to-hand combat, gets the immediate jump on the guy, and then RUNS AWAY.

    WTF?

    That part was really, really bad. They were trying to do a pastiche of other, better action scenes, but failed completely.
    It's a huge cliche, but sometimes it's cool. The smaller, faster, or injured fighter is in the shadows. He strikes quickly and fades away, multiple times, confusing his opponent. Danny didn't fade, he fucking beat feat across the rooftop. It was hilarious. I don't get how you can obviously understand and set up a well worn trope and still fuck it up so badly. I can only assume that the writer put it on the page, envisioning something glorious like The Shadow or Batman, but the director of that episode didn't give a shit. "It says knocks gun and runs, just shoot it and lets get this turd finished!"

    ThisThawmusDracomicronHenroidCanadianWolverine
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    Ep 7/8
    Up to Ward murdering his father. Y'know, the corporate intrigue with the Meachum's feels out of place with IF, sometimes, and Im starting to wonder if this wasn't a faux Dexter pitch merged with a Iron Fist show at the last minute. The Meachum storyline is ok by itself, and I'd be fine watching it in a regular drama show/Dexter emulating serial killer show (with art as Dexter obv) because while it feels out of place with IF it is semi-coherent and watchable. When Dexter Ward snaps and kills his psychotic abusive father violently with a knife then hiding the body it was like I was watching another season of Dexter for a second. lol The bad news is that it really doesn't mix with IF since my expectations are of a high quality DD type kung fu super-hero show not Dexter 2.0.

    edit: Why doesn't Danny react like something's wrong when he sees Ward walk into his dad's super-villain lair dressed in casual clothes rather than his sharp, business attire? I know Danny's new to the modern world, but this should at least feel like something's off there. Instead he doesn't react at all and Ward may as well have come up in his regular suit. Danny's supposed to be naive, not have the self awareness of a rock.

    Harry Dresden on
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    Ep 7/8
    Up to Ward murdering his father. Y'know, the corporate intrigue with the Meachum's feels out of place with IF, sometimes, and Im starting to wonder if this wasn't a faux Dexter pitch merged with a Iron Fist show at the last minute. The Meachum storyline is ok by itself, and I'd be fine watching it in a regular drama show/Dexter emulating serial killer show (with art as Dexter obv) because while it feels out of place with IF it is semi-coherent and watchable. When Dexter Ward snaps and kills his psychotic abusive father violently with a knife then hiding the body it was like I was watching another season of Dexter for a second. lol The bad news is that it really doesn't mix with IF since my expectations are of a high quality DD type kung fu super-hero show not Dexter 2.0.

    edit: Why doesn't Danny react like something's wrong when he sees Ward walk into his dad's super-villain lair dressed in casual clothes rather than his sharp, business attire? I know Danny's new to the modern world, but this should at least feel like something's off there. Instead he doesn't react at all and Ward may as well have come up in his regular suit. Danny's supposed to be naive, not have the self awareness of a rock.
    Why would he be surprised? He doesn't really know any of these people and how they live. Maybe Ward sometimes changes clothes. He has no frame of reference to find it odd.

    also I think it's great that Iron fist adds something else to the shows. Also I didn't get a Dexter vibe because Dexter is a sociopathic serial killer who doesn't feel bad about things and Ward goes crazy and emotional.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Julius wrote: »
    Ep 7/8
    Up to Ward murdering his father. Y'know, the corporate intrigue with the Meachum's feels out of place with IF, sometimes, and Im starting to wonder if this wasn't a faux Dexter pitch merged with a Iron Fist show at the last minute. The Meachum storyline is ok by itself, and I'd be fine watching it in a regular drama show/Dexter emulating serial killer show (with art as Dexter obv) because while it feels out of place with IF it is semi-coherent and watchable. When Dexter Ward snaps and kills his psychotic abusive father violently with a knife then hiding the body it was like I was watching another season of Dexter for a second. lol The bad news is that it really doesn't mix with IF since my expectations are of a high quality DD type kung fu super-hero show not Dexter 2.0.

    edit: Why doesn't Danny react like something's wrong when he sees Ward walk into his dad's super-villain lair dressed in casual clothes rather than his sharp, business attire? I know Danny's new to the modern world, but this should at least feel like something's off there. Instead he doesn't react at all and Ward may as well have come up in his regular suit. Danny's supposed to be naive, not have the self awareness of a rock.
    Why would he be surprised? He doesn't really know any of these people and how they live. Maybe Ward sometimes changes clothes. He has no frame of reference to find it odd.

    also I think it's great that Iron fist adds something else to the shows. Also I didn't get a Dexter vibe because Dexter is a sociopathic serial killer who doesn't feel bad about things and Ward goes crazy and emotional.
    Because he's not so insulated from society that he can't see patterns in peoples behavior. This is something he should have picked up in Kun-Lun, they may be ancient with their society structure but they are people. He wasn't literally raised by wolves.

    I'm not saying Danny should have instantly noticed that he's the one who did it or anything, just react. Until now all he's known about Ward is that visually he's a businessman who is always in expensive suits and takes care of himself. He should have this basic level of human self awareness.

    It's not about adding "something else," all the Netflix shows have their niches and additions, what's with IF that's not with them is that those feel like they're organic, IF's business intrigue doesn't. The writing isn't smooth enough for this to merge seamlessly.

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    It's not business intrigue, it's family intrigue. The whole point of the Meachum plot is to set Harold as the fulcrum and see if he can't fling one of his kids into space using the weight of the other.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    It's not business intrigue, it's family intrigue. The whole point of the Meachum plot is to set Harold as the fulcrum and see if he can't fling one of his kids into space using the weight of the other.
    True, but this isn't a soap opera over their loves lives, the crux of their power and influence is the Rand Corporation. That's why it's corporate intrigue. 99% of the time they're doing business for and through Rand. Without Rand they have nothing the Hand wants, their personal and corporate lives are intertwined so thoroughly it's indistinguishable.

    Harry Dresden on
  • jammujammu Registered User regular
    Julius wrote: »
    Ep 7/8
    Up to Ward murdering his father. Y'know, the corporate intrigue with the Meachum's feels out of place with IF, sometimes, and Im starting to wonder if this wasn't a faux Dexter pitch merged with a Iron Fist show at the last minute. The Meachum storyline is ok by itself, and I'd be fine watching it in a regular drama show/Dexter emulating serial killer show (with art as Dexter obv) because while it feels out of place with IF it is semi-coherent and watchable. When Dexter Ward snaps and kills his psychotic abusive father violently with a knife then hiding the body it was like I was watching another season of Dexter for a second. lol The bad news is that it really doesn't mix with IF since my expectations are of a high quality DD type kung fu super-hero show not Dexter 2.0.

    edit: Why doesn't Danny react like something's wrong when he sees Ward walk into his dad's super-villain lair dressed in casual clothes rather than his sharp, business attire? I know Danny's new to the modern world, but this should at least feel like something's off there. Instead he doesn't react at all and Ward may as well have come up in his regular suit. Danny's supposed to be naive, not have the self awareness of a rock.
    Why would he be surprised? He doesn't really know any of these people and how they live. Maybe Ward sometimes changes clothes. He has no frame of reference to find it odd.

    also I think it's great that Iron fist adds something else to the shows. Also I didn't get a Dexter vibe because Dexter is a sociopathic serial killer who doesn't feel bad about things and Ward goes crazy and emotional.
    Because he's not so insulated from society that he can't see patterns in peoples behavior. This is something he should have picked up in Kun-Lun, they may be ancient with their society structure but they are people. He wasn't literally raised by wolves.

    I'm not saying Danny should have instantly noticed that he's the one who did it or anything, just react. Until now all he's known about Ward is that visually he's a businessman who is always in expensive suits and takes care of himself. He should have this basic level of human self awareness.

    It's not about adding "something else," all the Netflix shows have their niches and additions, what's with IF that's not with them is that those feel like they're organic, IF's business intrigue doesn't. The writing isn't smooth enough for this to merge seamlessly.
    You don't have to be raised by recluse monks to not notice everything. For example, I didn't have any idea what you were talking about, until I checked that scene again.

    Sure He has little stubble and is wearing a t-shirt in his fathers home. Why should a person, who has a neckbeard react to that?

    iHINL4v.png
    JuliusGnome-Interruptus
  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    There was an interesting story regarding Harold, Ward, and Joy i think. Cool premise.
    I can tell you -personally- i didn't give a shit because i clicked on "Marvel's Iron Fist" not "Marvel's Very Scary Mechums."
    I DO understand there needed to be some of that element in there for the character, and its an important part of Iron Fist (like school or rent is for Spidey) but i'm willing to bet if i went back through all 13 hours and timed the corporate drama i'd wind up with an almost even amount of screen time to the actual main character. Which, to me, is just not cool.

    KanaUselesswarriorjjae2123
  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    There was an interesting story regarding Harold, Ward, and Joy i think. Cool premise.
    I can tell you -personally- i didn't give a shit because i clicked on "Marvel's Iron Fist" not "Marvel's Very Scary Mechums."
    I DO understand there needed to be some of that element in there for the character, and its an important part of Iron Fist (like school or rent is for Spidey) but i'm willing to bet if i went back through all 13 hours and timed the corporate drama i'd wind up with an almost even amount of screen time to the actual main character. Which, to me, is just not cool.

    Ep 13
    It was potentially really gripping that Harold was responsible for the Rand family murder, but I think they should have maybe spaced the Mechum stuff out to Season 2, and left this for the Season 2 finale, would have been better. The Mechum storyline is interesting, and it does eventually circle back to Danny, and that's good and cool, but it would have been better for this to have been spaced between Seasons 1 and 2, leaving more time for Iron Fist.

    Like, I'm thinking Ward kills Harold the first time at the end of S1, and then he comes back in one of the first couple of episodes in S2.

    After finishing the series last night, I feel more and more like the whole series was about Ward and his transformation as a character, and that was maybe not the goal. Neither for me, nor the series.

    steam_sig.png
    Siska
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    There was an interesting story regarding Harold, Ward, and Joy i think. Cool premise.
    I can tell you -personally- i didn't give a shit because i clicked on "Marvel's Iron Fist" not "Marvel's Very Scary Mechums."
    I DO understand there needed to be some of that element in there for the character, and its an important part of Iron Fist (like school or rent is for Spidey) but i'm willing to bet if i went back through all 13 hours and timed the corporate drama i'd wind up with an almost even amount of screen time to the actual main character. Which, to me, is just not cool.

    The Meachums subplot could literally be a season of a completely different show. Danny Rand the character has almost no bearing on their narrative. You could replace him with
    an iPad
    and he might as well not exist.

    a.k.a. Antaeus or Nubmonger

    -A digital receiver in an analog world.
    NinjeffMagell
  • AtomikaAtomika This time, it's legal. Registered User regular
    through ep 3:
    Ward is only getting stupider (Dad: Go get Danny and put him in a safe house. Ward: Right, get Danny, murder him, make sure it happens where I know you're monitoring everything going on, gotcha), Joy is smart and nice until she is suddenly mean and stupid. Danny is impulsive and has motivations that don't feel very well-developed. Colleen is way too forgiving and lenient with Danny, who is a dirty hobo that invades her space, ignores her requests, and abuses her students.


    not really on board at this point

  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    There was an interesting story regarding Harold, Ward, and Joy i think. Cool premise.
    I can tell you -personally- i didn't give a shit because i clicked on "Marvel's Iron Fist" not "Marvel's Very Scary Mechums."
    I DO understand there needed to be some of that element in there for the character, and its an important part of Iron Fist (like school or rent is for Spidey) but i'm willing to bet if i went back through all 13 hours and timed the corporate drama i'd wind up with an almost even amount of screen time to the actual main character. Which, to me, is just not cool.

    The Meachums subplot could literally be a season of a completely different show. Danny Rand the character has almost no bearing on their narrative. You could replace him with
    an iPad
    and he might as well not exist.

    Couldn't agree more.

    @Thawmus i actually think the whole thing needed to be condensed down. I dont mind the dual feel of the netflix series, so i would have liked to see
    Harold goes down in episode 8 or 9ish. And, by "down" i mean the same way the season ended. Find out Harold is responsible for the parents death, (a better) fight on the rooftop and then Danny can finally put that behind him, with 4 episodes to go of learning and exploring the Iron Fist and what that means. Getting better. Where did Kun Lun go? Maybe have Danny dive deeper into the "hero" aspect and what that might mean. Get him a goddamn costume because its a goddamn comic book show and i want super heroes and here i go again i made myself upset.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Three eps to go.

    Overall: Fine.

    Biggest annoyance: Danny is way too quick to anger / undisciplined for a kid who lived and breathed monastic discipline for 15 years, with a focus on exterminating The Hand.

    Examples: [Through Ep11]
    Not killing every opponent in the tourney without a second thought. Or at all!

    Screaming at Gao through the intercom.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Three eps to go.

    Overall: Fine.

    Biggest annoyance: Danny is way too quick to anger / undisciplined for a kid who lived and breathed monastic discipline for 15 years, with a focus on exterminating The Hand.

    Examples: [Through Ep11]
    Not killing every opponent in the tourney without a second thought. Or at all!

    Screaming at Gao through the intercom.

    I feel like this is intentional. The first episode pretty firmly establishes he's a bit unstable when he goes off on Ward. He's got issues.

    JuliusKanaGiggles_FunsworthArdol
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    shryke wrote: »
    Three eps to go.

    Overall: Fine.

    Biggest annoyance: Danny is way too quick to anger / undisciplined for a kid who lived and breathed monastic discipline for 15 years, with a focus on exterminating The Hand.

    Examples: [Through Ep11]
    Not killing every opponent in the tourney without a second thought. Or at all!

    Screaming at Gao through the intercom.

    I feel like this is intentional. The first episode pretty firmly establishes he's a bit unstable when he goes off on Ward. He's got issues.

    No doubt on it being intentional; just not what I was hoping to see. Matt has that angle covered. I wanted an unflappably cool operator with a pleasant demeanor and no qualms about killing the (very specific) bad guys to add some three-way juxtaposition there (with Frank).

    Disclaimer: Not at all aware of Iron Fist's comic canon or characterization.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
    Atlas in Chains
  • belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    Yeah, there is no way a Japanese speaker would say Bushido Code, just like there is no way an English speaker would say ATM machine or PIN number.

    Some of these nits being picked must be dislocating shoulders from having to reach so hard.

    In areas where the director/editor did really screw up, that scene where an 'unconscious' body moved its wrists together to be tied up really exemplifies things that should have been removed from the frame during shooting or editing, just like the magic backpack in the pilot.
    Wtf people say this shit all the goddamn time.

    ZampanovshrykeMalReynoldsPhillishereKashaarShadowenArdolCauld
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Three eps to go.

    Overall: Fine.

    Biggest annoyance: Danny is way too quick to anger / undisciplined for a kid who lived and breathed monastic discipline for 15 years, with a focus on exterminating The Hand.

    Examples: [Through Ep11]
    Not killing every opponent in the tourney without a second thought. Or at all!

    Screaming at Gao through the intercom.

    I feel like this is intentional. The first episode pretty firmly establishes he's a bit unstable when he goes off on Ward. He's got issues.

    No doubt on it being intentional; just not what I was hoping to see. Matt has that angle covered. I wanted an unflappably cool operator with a pleasant demeanor and no qualms about killing the (very specific) bad guys to add some three-way juxtaposition there (with Frank).

    Disclaimer: Not at all aware of Iron Fist's comic canon or characterization.

    Well, the theme of the Defenders group seems to be "these fuckers got issues!".

    Danny strikes me as very different from Matt. Matt is just chomping at the bit to stomp some fucking faces in. Danny is almost like a 10 year old who knows kung-fu. He really feels like he stopped maturing in some ways once the plane crash happened. He's naively optimistic at one point and then impulsively rage-filled by turn (although I'm pretty certain this is a normal result for abused children which he totally is). And sort of layered on top of that is this Iron Fist almost comically stuffy mystic warrior stuff that he believes wholeheartedly and naively in the way a child does.

    The interesting thing is he just doesn't seem to be a very good Iron Fist. There is continually commentary throughout the series so far on his lack of commitment the way an Iron Fist apparently should have it.


    Thinking about it all while writing this post, I really feel like it's obvious they did have a clear idea what they wanted to do with the character. He makes sense and he works. But the writing doesn't do a good job of highlighting his motivations or of structuring the narrative to make those motivations central to the plot.

    CanadianWolverine
  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Three eps to go.

    Overall: Fine.

    Biggest annoyance: Danny is way too quick to anger / undisciplined for a kid who lived and breathed monastic discipline for 15 years, with a focus on exterminating The Hand.

    Examples: [Through Ep11]
    Not killing every opponent in the tourney without a second thought. Or at all!

    Screaming at Gao through the intercom.

    I feel like this is intentional. The first episode pretty firmly establishes he's a bit unstable when he goes off on Ward. He's got issues.

    No doubt on it being intentional; just not what I was hoping to see. Matt has that angle covered. I wanted an unflappably cool operator with a pleasant demeanor and no qualms about killing the (very specific) bad guys to add some three-way juxtaposition there (with Frank).

    Disclaimer: Not at all aware of Iron Fist's comic canon or characterization.

    Well, the theme of the Defenders group seems to be "these fuckers got issues!".

    Danny strikes me as very different from Matt. Matt is just chomping at the bit to stomp some fucking faces in. Danny is almost like a 10 year old who knows kung-fu. He really feels like he stopped maturing in some ways once the plane crash happened. He's naively optimistic at one point and then impulsively rage-filled by turn (although I'm pretty certain this is a normal result for abused children which he totally is). And sort of layered on top of that is this Iron Fist almost comically stuffy mystic warrior stuff that he believes wholeheartedly and naively in the way a child does.

    The interesting thing is he just doesn't seem to be a very good Iron Fist. There is continually commentary throughout the series so far on his lack of commitment the way an Iron Fist apparently should have it.


    Thinking about it all while writing this post, I really feel like it's obvious they did have a clear idea what they wanted to do with the character. He makes sense and he works. But the writing doesn't do a good job of highlighting his motivations or of structuring the narrative to make those motivations central to the plot.

    They sort of shoot themselves in the foot with making Danny a relatable character, mostly because the gap is so wide between what they say and what they do.

    Like the conversation on the plane:
    Danny: "Ive spent 15 years learning to be a master of my own emotions" then BAM! not 10 seconds later he is totally freaking out over the plane turbulence. I could understand if he was really trying to center himself, and that it was evident but the trauma of the memories was too much. But that isnt what happens. He literally says he is a master of his emotions 10 seconds before he starts losing his mind and Claire has to calm him down. As a viewer i either have to think he is lying about what he learned in 15 years, or is the worst Iron Fist ever and both of those dont make him a very relatable character. To me, anyway.

    Ninjeff on
    Atlas in Chains
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