Using MTGO data it kind of is. That is a LOT of events, with players worldwide using Amonkhet's new tools to try to stop the combo, and they increasingly kept coming up short. Whether this was because the tools weren't enough or the Copycat deck itself picked up its own new toys (Glorybringer seems good with both Guardian and Saheeli) and countermeasures (for example, how many answers does Forsake the Worldly erase?) is hard to determine, but 40% of all 5-0 and 4-1 decks featuring the same combo is a very real number.
And to be fair, it was almost certainly going to be banned eventually. As they admitted in this announcement, it never should have been allowed to exist in the first place. There was no way Guardian was going to live to see its natural rotation in 2018. A two-card infinite combo like that is just too unhealthy for Standard.
Better to cut off the limb now before it infects the rest of the body.
Honestly this seems like the worst of the both worlds. They probably should have just banned the thing but I could at least appreciate giving the format time to try and self correct. Two days isn't enough time though. Of course it was going to be the best at first.
But it was a long shot anyway and its probably good that it is gone.
EDIT: Worst of both worlds from Wizard's perspective I mean. They seem both indecisive and out of touch here.
It just reinforces that impression from after the whole mess with changing how blocks would cycle
Using MTGO data it kind of is. That is a LOT of events, with players worldwide using Amonkhet's new tools to try to stop the combo, and they increasingly kept coming up short. Whether this was because the tools weren't enough or the Copycat deck itself picked up its own new toys (Glorybringer seems good with both Guardian and Saheeli) and countermeasures (for example, how many answers does Forsake the Worldly erase?) is hard to determine, but 40% of all 5-0 and 4-1 decks featuring the same combo is a very real number.
And to be fair, it was almost certainly going to be banned eventually. As they admitted in this announcement, it never should have been allowed to exist in the first place. There was no way Guardian was going to live to see its natural rotation in 2018. A two-card infinite combo like that is just too unhealthy for Standard.
Better to cut off the limb now before it infects the rest of the body.
Hundreds of events where the majority of skilled players were going to gravitate towards the deck that's already built and was more than dominant last season. I've been glued to twitch and the people not playing one of those two decks amounted to early iterations of the three most obvious ideas and it doesn't matter how many tournaments If they were all moving concurrently. In this time we can't even say for sure but someone didn't find an answer. I keep coming back to this but during Kaledesh Standard people were convinced for three whole months of constant modo date that flash and delirium with the best decks. Then suddenly two pros stumbled onto an idea that changed everything.
This was almost certainly the right thing to do but I don't think it's fair to say that there was enough data.
expect mardu vehicles, the return of g/b snake, and u/r control that may or may not dynavolt tower
Yeah. It's too close to the event for people to really be willing to make up and test new decks, rather than relying on older ones with modifications.
I'm really curious to see how the glut of cheap artifact removal affects the format though, and if there will be any experimental decks that rise above the tide of people playing what they're already familiar with.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
with this ban, the time is ripe for me to invent a cutting-edge new deck and take the pro tour by storm
time to break out Beefle's Grade-A-Random-Deck-Concept-Generator-Machine
let's see. it spit out...
U/G Zombies
let's goooooo
Hrmmmmm. Not actually sure you can swing that one. GB zombies though, that could work. The -1 counter on your own stuff minions synergize well with haunted dead, the one drop zombie jackal and prized amalgam, since they just keep coming back. Not sure that works as well in blue because you don't have one drops to curve Exemplar of Strength into, and it's better to psuedo-sacrifice a spirit token or a ground-bound 2/2 than a 3/1 flier.
You also get crocodile of the crossing! That's a good card.
WearingglassesOf the friendly neighborhood varietyRegistered Userregular
Is the reason they don't do something like "The cat is only banned if it's in a deck with Saheeli" is the sheer amount of pain-in-the-ass work to enforce it?
I don't think anyone would play Felidar Guardian in Constructed if it weren't part of an absurd combo, so why bother creating some alternate "semi-ban" list?
I don't think anyone would play Felidar Guardian in Constructed if it weren't part of an absurd combo, so why bother creating some alternate "semi-ban" list?
Felidar is actually a pretty nuts value creature. I could see it showing up in heavy walker midrange decks.
Anyway I think that sorta nitty-gritty banning feels really silly and "yo this card is ruining the format so its gone" is just a better way to go.
Trying this deck out if I can scrap some cash together
Lands
23
Creatures
4x Snapcaster
Planeswalkers
4x Nissa, Stewart of the elements
Enchantment
4x Counterbalance
2x Detention Sphere
Instants and Sorceries
4x Serum Visions
4x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Path to Exile
4x Telling time
2x Noxious revival
2x Peek
1x Temporal Mastery
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Is the reason they don't do something like "The cat is only banned if it's in a deck with Saheeli" is the sheer amount of pain-in-the-ass work to enforce it?
It's much simpler and much easier to enforce this way.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
+2
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
The one time they did do something like that was when they banned Stoneforge Mystic, but it was part of one of the preconstructed decks at the time and they didn't want people to buy the deck and then be told they couldn't play it, so SFM was banned unless it was used in that exact decklist, i.e. straight out of the box with no changes.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Thinking about it, one oketra's monument seems pretty core in white creature-high-end-based control. Lets you Thalia's Lancer's or Angel of Sanctions (I'm also considering Angel of Innovation as it gives you two 2/2 chumpers and is a 4 point lifeswing every turn it lives to attack), as well as giving you extra chumpers in the 1/1 tokens.
Also, notably, I just realized Angel of Sanctions is nonland permanent, just like Cast Out. That is, uh... a good card.
Well I was having a pretty bad time with Amonkhet out of the gate. It is traditional that I lose my first sealed match on MTGO to whatever the buzziest card of the set is. Seriously. For Kaladesh it was Skysovereign. For Aether Revolt it was Heart of Kiran (with bonus Tusker). And sure enough, right on cue, Glorybringer shows up in games 1 and 3 (turn 5) of my first match. So it goes. My first pool's best deck, a trashy blue white pile with the white god and nothing else (aside from my literal 5 copies of Unburden ), goes 0-3 drop. Then I open a Glorybringer in my second pool, and pretty much fuck all else but an Electrify. I cobble together RGu sideboarding to RGw sometimes and manage 1-3 drop.
So it goes.
So I sell my rares and jump into a draft last night. And MTGO glitches. I join the queue but never see the packs. It picks a card for me (red mythic 4/1 that lets you exert to attach again) and then freezes. I log out and then can't log back in, get stuck at the loading screen.)
Grr. Why do I even play this game?!
But whatever. No one really likes bad beat stories.
So I fire off a refund request and finally log back in. The red mythic is gone, but MTGO has picked 20 cards for me across 4 colors. I sort by color, see that blue and black are my best bet and start drafting. I get the zombie lord, and then in pack three both a Liliana's Mastery (which I took over my one shot at removal, the 1B instant that puts 2 -1/-1 counters on a creature) and a Stir the Sands. No removal, but a solid enough deck to pilot to 2-1 for 2 packs.
This refund comes in, so I'm up 2 packs!
Fire off another draft this morning (copiloted by my son).
Start with P1P1 Sandwurm Convergence from a weak pack. Green dries up but the red is flowing (4th pick Electrify). There's only one ramp card available the whole draft, so I end up with an 8 3-drop, sixteen land deck that hopes to run over the opponent quickly with pump tricks and removal.
I've seen less tricksy versions of this from streamers this week, and it's the kind of deck that can just fold to a 1/5 crab. But it's what I've got.
Boom! Aided by aggressive Cerodon cycling, my deck serves up a nice curve of creatures and tricks and I'm able to kill most opponents before they get set up or to do enough damage and then Pathmaker through the last damage. Pathmaker + Minotaur Sureshot is pretty great. 3-0 and +6 packs.
I also managed to pull off a turn 5 kill. Magma Sprayed his mana snake EOT, which stalled him on two lands for a turn.
Then:
Assault for double damage lethal on turn 5! Okay, technically my opponent flashed in a leopard to block Ornery. I took him to 8, and it took 2 more turns to kill him. But still.
So screw you bad beats. This is a good beats story.
I don't think anyone would play Felidar Guardian in Constructed if it weren't part of an absurd combo, so why bother creating some alternate "semi-ban" list?
It's an effect I really, really like, but it's such an obvious combo I don't really know how they made it this far in the first place.
Is the reason they don't do something like "The cat is only banned if it's in a deck with Saheeli" is the sheer amount of pain-in-the-ass work to enforce it?
It's much simpler and much easier to enforce this way.
Yeah I mean it's clearly convenience, since to ban the combo they'd need to ban one of the two cards, and they went with keeping the Planeswalker. I guess the argument was Saheeli was more visible and versatile, but on the latter I kind of disagree. It's just a little annoying in that the next set just introduced what is effectively a Cat lord which I know personally I was interested in toying around with. In the grand scheme of things there's little argument that one of them had to go and this was the more logical call but, eh. It's just annoying that what could be argued as a somewhat practical card is banned because it absolutely breaks another one. On a practical level the question might almost be why they didn't ban Saheeli.
Also, sort of curious as to how it wasn't also banned in Modern. I mean, the combo still exists there, right? Just more assumed responses?
Update: edited my initial thought because woooow, didn't realize the ban dropped Saheeli down to like $5 already. Now I'm even stronger on "maybe the kitty should have stayed." But yeah. TLDR version: they had to ban one of them and banning their new Planeswalker that's the literal mascot of the set would look awful.
I have a question for @BugBoy - How many Decimator Beetles have you played/drafted, and HOW GOOD IS THAT CARD?
I haven't drafted in a while due to a poor experience last time I tried (two and a half hour wait for the thing to start), but I can still say that this beetle is the best thing since Giant Adephage.
I really like giant adephage.
BugBoy on
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Why would you be waiting around 2 and a half hours? Wouldn't the draft just not fire and people leave to do other stuff when there isn't enough people there on time?
I haven't been paying attention, does Amonkhet have any cards that I could draft 3 of that don't win me the game, but do suck all the fun out of it for my opponent like Graf Mole?
Everyday we stray further from God's light Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
I haven't been paying attention, does Amonkhet have any cards that I could draft 3 of that don't win me the game, but do suck all the fun out of it for my opponent like Graf Mole?
i mean it's got a fog
+1
Options
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I haven't been paying attention, does Amonkhet have any cards that I could draft 3 of that don't win me the game, but do suck all the fun out of it for my opponent like Graf Mole?
i mean it's got a fog
that cycles!
+1
Options
BugBoyboy.EXE has stopped functioning.only bugs remainRegistered Userregular
Why would you be waiting around 2 and a half hours? Wouldn't the draft just not fire and people leave to do other stuff when there isn't enough people there on time?
We were told the draft would fire up as soon as there were enough people, so we kept waiting in the hopes that people would show. Maybe not the best move, but getting out to the store is a bit of a pain and we were already there.
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
I have a question for @BugBoy - How many Decimator Beetles have you played/drafted, and HOW GOOD IS THAT CARD?
I haven't drafted in a while due to a poor experience last time I tried (two and a half hour wait for the thing to start), but I can still say that this beetle is the best thing since Giant Adephage.
I really like giant adephage.
I had to look that card up, it is from way beyond my time.
I haven't been paying attention, does Amonkhet have any cards that I could draft 3 of that don't win me the game, but do suck all the fun out of it for my opponent like Graf Mole?
i mean it's got a fog
that cycles!
It is the most roxanne card ever, I want to build a house out of it
I have a question for @BugBoy - How many Decimator Beetles have you played/drafted, and HOW GOOD IS THAT CARD?
I haven't drafted in a while due to a poor experience last time I tried (two and a half hour wait for the thing to start), but I can still say that this beetle is the best thing since Giant Adephage.
I really like giant adephage.
I had to look that card up, it is from way beyond my time.
Oh my GOD that is a BEAST.
No it's an insect.
+10
Options
KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
I shall draft tonight.
What are the forumers' favourite AKH archetypes?
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
0
Options
Tommy2Handswhat is this where am iRegistered Userregular
I have a question for @BugBoy - How many Decimator Beetles have you played/drafted, and HOW GOOD IS THAT CARD?
I haven't drafted in a while due to a poor experience last time I tried (two and a half hour wait for the thing to start), but I can still say that this beetle is the best thing since Giant Adephage.
I really like giant adephage.
I had to look that card up, it is from way beyond my time.
Oh my GOD that is a BEAST.
shoulda seen play in monogreen devotion
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Poor giant adephage - to be a big ol Timmy 7-drop in triple Gatewatch, where you conservatively died or won by turn 5.
Posts
How many counters would you expect that ur deck to run? Just some value negates or a full draw-go complement?
Probably close to this
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-standard-constructed-league-2017-04-25
Or maybe Temur Tower.
Using MTGO data it kind of is. That is a LOT of events, with players worldwide using Amonkhet's new tools to try to stop the combo, and they increasingly kept coming up short. Whether this was because the tools weren't enough or the Copycat deck itself picked up its own new toys (Glorybringer seems good with both Guardian and Saheeli) and countermeasures (for example, how many answers does Forsake the Worldly erase?) is hard to determine, but 40% of all 5-0 and 4-1 decks featuring the same combo is a very real number.
And to be fair, it was almost certainly going to be banned eventually. As they admitted in this announcement, it never should have been allowed to exist in the first place. There was no way Guardian was going to live to see its natural rotation in 2018. A two-card infinite combo like that is just too unhealthy for Standard.
Better to cut off the limb now before it infects the rest of the body.
It just reinforces that impression from after the whole mess with changing how blocks would cycle
Hundreds of events where the majority of skilled players were going to gravitate towards the deck that's already built and was more than dominant last season. I've been glued to twitch and the people not playing one of those two decks amounted to early iterations of the three most obvious ideas and it doesn't matter how many tournaments If they were all moving concurrently. In this time we can't even say for sure but someone didn't find an answer. I keep coming back to this but during Kaledesh Standard people were convinced for three whole months of constant modo date that flash and delirium with the best decks. Then suddenly two pros stumbled onto an idea that changed everything.
This was almost certainly the right thing to do but I don't think it's fair to say that there was enough data.
time to break out Beefle's Grade-A-Random-Deck-Concept-Generator-Machine
let's see. it spit out...
U/G Zombies
let's goooooo
Yeah. It's too close to the event for people to really be willing to make up and test new decks, rather than relying on older ones with modifications.
I'm really curious to see how the glut of cheap artifact removal affects the format though, and if there will be any experimental decks that rise above the tide of people playing what they're already familiar with.
Hrmmmmm. Not actually sure you can swing that one. GB zombies though, that could work. The -1 counter on your own stuff minions synergize well with haunted dead, the one drop zombie jackal and prized amalgam, since they just keep coming back. Not sure that works as well in blue because you don't have one drops to curve Exemplar of Strength into, and it's better to psuedo-sacrifice a spirit token or a ground-bound 2/2 than a 3/1 flier.
You also get crocodile of the crossing! That's a good card.
grixis zombies/emerge exists
Anyway I think that sorta nitty-gritty banning feels really silly and "yo this card is ruining the format so its gone" is just a better way to go.
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Lands
23
Creatures
4x Snapcaster
Planeswalkers
4x Nissa, Stewart of the elements
Enchantment
4x Counterbalance
2x Detention Sphere
Instants and Sorceries
4x Serum Visions
4x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Path to Exile
4x Telling time
2x Noxious revival
2x Peek
1x Temporal Mastery
It's much simpler and much easier to enforce this way.
Also, notably, I just realized Angel of Sanctions is nonland permanent, just like Cast Out. That is, uh... a good card.
So it goes.
So I sell my rares and jump into a draft last night. And MTGO glitches. I join the queue but never see the packs. It picks a card for me (red mythic 4/1 that lets you exert to attach again) and then freezes. I log out and then can't log back in, get stuck at the loading screen.)
Grr. Why do I even play this game?!
But whatever. No one really likes bad beat stories.
So I fire off a refund request and finally log back in. The red mythic is gone, but MTGO has picked 20 cards for me across 4 colors. I sort by color, see that blue and black are my best bet and start drafting. I get the zombie lord, and then in pack three both a Liliana's Mastery (which I took over my one shot at removal, the 1B instant that puts 2 -1/-1 counters on a creature) and a Stir the Sands. No removal, but a solid enough deck to pilot to 2-1 for 2 packs.
This refund comes in, so I'm up 2 packs!
Fire off another draft this morning (copiloted by my son).
Start with P1P1 Sandwurm Convergence from a weak pack. Green dries up but the red is flowing (4th pick Electrify). There's only one ramp card available the whole draft, so I end up with an 8 3-drop, sixteen land deck that hopes to run over the opponent quickly with pump tricks and removal.
I've seen less tricksy versions of this from streamers this week, and it's the kind of deck that can just fold to a 1/5 crab. But it's what I've got.
Boom! Aided by aggressive Cerodon cycling, my deck serves up a nice curve of creatures and tricks and I'm able to kill most opponents before they get set up or to do enough damage and then Pathmaker through the last damage. Pathmaker + Minotaur Sureshot is pretty great. 3-0 and +6 packs.
I also managed to pull off a turn 5 kill. Magma Sprayed his mana snake EOT, which stalled him on two lands for a turn.
Then:
Assault for double damage lethal on turn 5! Okay, technically my opponent flashed in a leopard to block Ornery. I took him to 8, and it took 2 more turns to kill him. But still.
So screw you bad beats. This is a good beats story.
Steam profile.
Getting started with BATTLETECH: Part 1 / Part 2
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
It's an effect I really, really like, but it's such an obvious combo I don't really know how they made it this far in the first place.
Yeah I mean it's clearly convenience, since to ban the combo they'd need to ban one of the two cards, and they went with keeping the Planeswalker. I guess the argument was Saheeli was more visible and versatile, but on the latter I kind of disagree. It's just a little annoying in that the next set just introduced what is effectively a Cat lord which I know personally I was interested in toying around with. In the grand scheme of things there's little argument that one of them had to go and this was the more logical call but, eh. It's just annoying that what could be argued as a somewhat practical card is banned because it absolutely breaks another one. On a practical level the question might almost be why they didn't ban Saheeli.
Also, sort of curious as to how it wasn't also banned in Modern. I mean, the combo still exists there, right? Just more assumed responses?
Update: edited my initial thought because woooow, didn't realize the ban dropped Saheeli down to like $5 already. Now I'm even stronger on "maybe the kitty should have stayed." But yeah. TLDR version: they had to ban one of them and banning their new Planeswalker that's the literal mascot of the set would look awful.
half of splinter twin's combo was also at instant speed that came with disruption
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
I haven't drafted in a while due to a poor experience last time I tried (two and a half hour wait for the thing to start), but I can still say that this beetle is the best thing since Giant Adephage.
I really like giant adephage.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
i mean it's got a fog
that cycles!
We were told the draft would fire up as soon as there were enough people, so we kept waiting in the hopes that people would show. Maybe not the best move, but getting out to the store is a bit of a pain and we were already there.
I had to look that card up, it is from way beyond my time.
Oh my GOD that is a BEAST.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
It is the most roxanne card ever, I want to build a house out of it
No it's an insect.
What are the forumers' favourite AKH archetypes?
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
shoulda seen play in monogreen devotion
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
That was my favorite bug
You said "Gatewatch" but the only bug in that set is Loam Larva.
This is basically loam larva.
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated