Minus X dying in the Nexus rebellions. Minus X from Scourge hits. Kett attacks. Failed colonies.
No one from Ark Hyperion died in the rebellions or on failed colonies, and neither the Scourge impact nor Kett attacks seem to claim significant casualties that I recall. But regardless of that, technology is so "clean futuristic" that you have mass effect fields everywhere, ubiquitous gene therapy, medi-gel, omni-gel, trivial FTL, AI integration, and back in the Milky Way Miranda's dad ran through an entire series of genetically engineered lab children.
So "gay people have to do their civic duty and have a kid" still seems pretty fucked up, yeah. Should relationships with asari/turians/angara/etc. be frowned upon for similar reasons, unless the person agrees to donate a child first?
Well, bluntly, yes. Donate sperm, donate eggs, whatever. Nobody says "you have to have a child and raise it and be a parent"; that's even an option for Gil, who started all this, and I kind of liked the conversation about being a donor vs being an actual father figure.
I'd assume every single member of the initiative has genetic material on file at the very least, or has agreed to donate eventually so storage isn't a concern, and somewhere in the contract is "so you know that once we set up a colony, it's time to get to making as many babies as you can, right?" Nobody's getting away with "oh, just one kid" either. It's time for 3+ per couple if at all possible, since 2 is only replacement.
The first couple generations of colony life would be, by our/Milky Way standards, Really Fucking Weird. Like if we modern humans suddenly were back to having to have enough kids to help out on the farm, and the obvious spares for when the mumps come through town and then Billy got et by wolves.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited April 2017
I'm with dporowski here... propagation is going to be a huge concern and I would expect that everyone who signed on did so with the knowledge that at minimum they were expected to donate genetic material. Who you have a relationship with need never be an issue, but the birth of babies will be something that's curated by the powers that be, one way or another. I don't agree that it would go as far as, "if you marry a genetically compatible partner, a minimum of 5 children are required by law" however, since you can do all the propagation in the lab if necessary. There probably will be social pressure towards large families for couples capable of making them without a lab, though.
Under those circumstances, it wouldn't be that surprising to find people who are friends but not romantic deciding to create a child together for the purposes of raising it themselves (instead of donate-and-forget which might rub some people the wrong way). An entirely different social structure from what we know in the west could be created in such a culture - children raised by many parents/family members similar to the Angara.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Yeah, with a lot of Asari/Angaran influence happening I would not be at all surprised by that. It's not even that weird for humans; 20-30 years ago you think of the neighborhood kids sort of roaming in a pack, and being fed/hosed off/monitored by whichever adults happened to be closest at that time. Okay, maybe more like 30-40, I might be kind of older than I remember.
It's not even that weird for humans; 20-30 years ago you think of the neighborhood kids sort of roaming in a pack, and being fed/hosed off/monitored by whichever adults happened to be closest at that time.
Mass Effect: Sandlot
Oh I remember that day, when The Beast chased Be'ny damn near halfway across the planet - as big a junkyard Varren as there ever was. Even ruined the Pathfinders' day cake during that chase. We never forgot it.
Family is a major theme in the game. Most of the loyalty quests and a ton of the regular and side quests revolve around it. Even the Krogan have begun experimenting with nuclear families.
Family is a major theme in the game. Most of the loyalty quests and a ton of the regular and side quests revolve around it. Even the Krogan have begun experimenting with nuclear families.
Even the bad guys are trying to promote their own weird idea of what a family is.
Family is a major theme in the game. Most of the loyalty quests and a ton of the regular and side quests revolve around it. Even the Krogan have begun experimenting with nuclear families.
I love love love New Tuchanka and all the message boards for new fathers. Krogan dads are fuckin' adorable and have been since the original trilogy and that guy who was sure that a kiddo he saw in the female compound was his boy.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Aaaaaand now I can't stop thinking about the impacts of a founder effect on genetic diversity in Andromeda and if their tech might be advanced enough to overcome that with gene engineering. Theoretically you only need two humans if you can artificially induce diversity and reduce homozygosity!
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Aaaaaand now I can't stop thinking about the impacts of a founder effect on genetic diversity in Andromeda and if their tech might be advanced enough to overcome that with gene engineering. Theoretically you only need two humans if you can artificially induce diversity and reduce homozygosity!
With such a small population I have to assume they have the technology to overcome the diversity problem.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
Two still isn't enough for me to call it a pattern (yet!), but I can see why you can consider it one.
Thanks for clarifying.
It doesn't need to be a pattern - that anyone is spending time to present a woman as rabidly sex-crazed and then invite the audience to take delight in murdering her is incredibly offputting even if it was one time. It's effectively guro and doesn't need to be shared in a non-fetish audience.
(Re: Genetic drift) “It would not be a significant factor as long as the space travellers come home or interact with other humans at the end of the 200 year period.”
Basically that 160ish figure covers a generational expedition, but not permanent colonisation with a start population and no further fresh population influx.
dporowski on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
If we have FTL we probably have genetic editing that can counter drift.
If we have FTL we probably have genetic editing that can counter drift.
If you're relying on tech to make reproduction viable, your population is in extreme danger from anything that threatens that tech. Whether it's running out of geneticists, equipment failure, accident, or simply everyone going "wait, why do we have to have a vat baby again?" it's prone to failure in a way that "okay, get to fuckin'!" just isn't.
I mean in context of Andromeda, all the Kett or Roekaar or whoever would have to do is "blow up the thing with the vats in it" and bam, there went humanity.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
If we have FTL we probably have genetic editing that can counter drift.
If you're relying on tech to make reproduction viable, your population is in extreme danger from anything that threatens that tech. Whether it's running out of geneticists, equipment failure, accident, or simply everyone going "wait, why do we have to have a vat baby again?" it's prone to failure in a way that "okay, get to fuckin'!" just isn't.
I mean in context of Andromeda, all the Kett or Roekaar or whoever would have to do is "blow up the thing with the vats in it" and bam, there went humanity.
Sure but like sending people in cold hibernation also runs huge risks of "whoops power failure you're in a black hole now."
There's not really a safe way to move a population 2 million light years, I think.
If we have FTL we probably have genetic editing that can counter drift.
If you're relying on tech to make reproduction viable, your population is in extreme danger from anything that threatens that tech. Whether it's running out of geneticists, equipment failure, accident, or simply everyone going "wait, why do we have to have a vat baby again?" it's prone to failure in a way that "okay, get to fuckin'!" just isn't.
I mean in context of Andromeda, all the Kett or Roekaar or whoever would have to do is "blow up the thing with the vats in it" and bam, there went humanity.
Sure but like sending people in cold hibernation also runs huge risks of "whoops power failure you're in a black hole now."
There's not really a safe way to move a population 2 million light years, I think.
Completely agree. But there's "unavoidable risk", like the stasis/travel aspect you mention, then "avoidable risk", like using a non-default or assisted method of species reproduction when you don't otherwise need to.
So, the safe/logical thing to do, from a planning/risk management standpoint, is to provide for artificial insemination and so forth in cases like the Gil/Jill example, or your average random fertility problem, have genetic therapy available like normal for medical issues, but leave reproduction as a whole to the method that's been serving the species for millennia, because the only moving parts THAT has are the fun ones. Even if you're knocked back hundreds of years down the tech tree like the Angara were, you can still have people make babies, even if you haven't got gene vats and such.
Yo space sexing, I'm real happy for you, Imma let you finish but Retrieval is a great change of pace in MP maps!
I think they may increase the movement speed debuff because right now it is really minor (or maybe disable dashing while carrying, so the movement speed slowing feels impactful) but it is nice that you can still defend yourself, and it is a pretty fun alternative to the other objectives that can pop up in matches.
The only one still that feels wrong is hack (or upload? I always get them mixed up). It is too easy by a long shot.
Glad to have it in the mix.
I'm surprised there was no new class today, last weeks stream hinted pretty heavily we'd see a new class before the end of april. Ah well.
EDIT: Hack should relocate every 1/3 bar. I think that'd fix it being too easy/boring.
Oh, question: I may be remembering wrong, but didn't penetration on weapons increase damage done to armor in prior games (in addition to shooting through cover)?
They really didn't think through hold powers with KBAM controls. There is no natural way to hold down, say, cryo beam, and move, with a normal control setup.
For now I'll probably just remap one of my mouse buttons to the button that does those abilities, but that just reminds me that it is dumb that you can't reassign skill keys for MP classes.
Also while I'm thinking of it, if you choose flamethrower for assault turret does it do the flamethrower in addition to normal shooting, or does it replace its shooting entirely?
Donor material, I'd assume no one was required to donate or have it on file or agree to do so later, given that that certainly would have come up from the one character in the game who exists almost solely around this topic, and instead of joking about wanting an opportunity to "boost Ryder's batter" the line would about using what's on file.
somewhere in the contract is "so you know that once we set up a colony, it's time to get to making as many babies as you can, right?" Nobody's getting away with "oh, just one kid" either. It's time for 3+ per couple if at all possible, since 2 is only replacement.
but the birth of babies will be something that's curated by the powers that be, one way or another.
So is this something that only applies if it's minimally inconvenient, or is this still okay in Handmaid's Tale/Gears of War/etc. settings? Because personally, even at the least intrusive level, I think people have the right to their own bodies and everything in them and can choose to raise/donate/abstain as they wish, even without a setting where technology is so advanced that the supposed imperative is nigh-irrelevant. Miranda didn't have a mother, even in surrogate—her father simply modified his own genome. Gene therapy is so advanced in Mass Effect that even back by the First Contact War the Systems Alliance had laws restricting it because they had the ability to splice entirely new kinds of life or casually hybridize humans, and most genetic diseases had been wiped out of the population. If 160 people is enough to last a couple centuries before requiring additional material without any genetic tech, then any portion of 20k people is more than enough when you can edit the template at will.
Maybe if there's a collapse and all of this foundational setting tech is wiped out then the question of babymakin' contractual obligations will come to the foreground, but Mass Effect is too clean and optimistic a setting for that to be likely.
Oh, question: I may be remembering wrong, but didn't penetration on weapons increase damage done to armor in prior games (in addition to shooting through cover)?
Does anyone know if it also does in Andromeda?
It did, and it listed it as a separate entry on the mod's benefits alongside the ballistic penetration ones. 95% sure it doesn't do the same in Andromeda.
Oh, question: I may be remembering wrong, but didn't penetration on weapons increase damage done to armor in prior games (in addition to shooting through cover)?
Does anyone know if it also does in Andromeda?
It should for enemies that have armor plates(the Kett dogs have armor on their head that can be knocked off) but not for those that don't. I don't think that most of the armored units have plates.
Though it's likely that destroyers do, when they cover their snooty weak point in the middle)
Donor material, I'd assume no one was required to donate or have it on file or agree to do so later, given that that certainly would have come up from the one character in the game who exists almost solely around this topic, and instead of joking about wanting an opportunity to "boost Ryder's batter" the line would about using what's on file.
somewhere in the contract is "so you know that once we set up a colony, it's time to get to making as many babies as you can, right?" Nobody's getting away with "oh, just one kid" either. It's time for 3+ per couple if at all possible, since 2 is only replacement.
but the birth of babies will be something that's curated by the powers that be, one way or another.
So is this something that only applies if it's minimally inconvenient, or is this still okay in Handmaid's Tale/Gears of War/etc. settings? Because personally, even at the least intrusive level, I think people have the right to their own bodies and everything in them and can choose to raise/donate/abstain as they wish, even without a setting where technology is so advanced that the supposed imperative is nigh-irrelevant. Miranda didn't have a mother, even in surrogate—her father simply modified his own genome. Gene therapy is so advanced in Mass Effect that even back by the First Contact War the Systems Alliance had laws restricting it because they had the ability to splice entirely new kinds of life or casually hybridize humans, and most genetic diseases had been wiped out of the population. If 160 people is enough to last a couple centuries before requiring additional material without any genetic tech, then any portion of 20k people is more than enough when you can edit the template at will.
Maybe if there's a collapse and all of this foundational setting tech is wiped out then the question of babymakin' contractual obligations will come to the foreground, but Mass Effect is too clean and optimistic a setting for that to be likely.
Also, 5000 people is enough for completely undirected natural population viability. That is accounting for early deaths and non breeding individuals. Not to mention that you don't rely on your soldiers (or pathfinders in this case) to be part of your breeding population because they have more important things to do and are also in high risk situations.
Disregarding all of this though. My point was that it's really shitty that the only gay romance of any substance is entirely built around the concept of childbirth. That is a problem! Imagine if Gil was a girl and the plotline was "The only way I can be useful to society as a woman is if I bear children." this is exactly as bad as that.
Donor material, I'd assume no one was required to donate or have it on file or agree to do so later, given that that certainly would have come up from the one character in the game who exists almost solely around this topic, and instead of joking about wanting an opportunity to "boost Ryder's batter" the line would about using what's on file.
somewhere in the contract is "so you know that once we set up a colony, it's time to get to making as many babies as you can, right?" Nobody's getting away with "oh, just one kid" either. It's time for 3+ per couple if at all possible, since 2 is only replacement.
but the birth of babies will be something that's curated by the powers that be, one way or another.
So is this something that only applies if it's minimally inconvenient, or is this still okay in Handmaid's Tale/Gears of War/etc. settings? Because personally, even at the least intrusive level, I think people have the right to their own bodies and everything in them and can choose to raise/donate/abstain as they wish, even without a setting where technology is so advanced that the supposed imperative is nigh-irrelevant. Miranda didn't have a mother, even in surrogate—her father simply modified his own genome. Gene therapy is so advanced in Mass Effect that even back by the First Contact War the Systems Alliance had laws restricting it because they had the ability to splice entirely new kinds of life or casually hybridize humans, and most genetic diseases had been wiped out of the population. If 160 people is enough to last a couple centuries before requiring additional material without any genetic tech, then any portion of 20k people is more than enough when you can edit the template at will.
Maybe if there's a collapse and all of this foundational setting tech is wiped out then the question of babymakin' contractual obligations will come to the foreground, but Mass Effect is too clean and optimistic a setting for that to be likely.
Also, 5000 people is enough for completely undirected natural population viability. That is accounting for early deaths and non breeding individuals. Not to mention that you don't rely on your soldiers (or pathfinders in this case) to be part of your breeding population because they have more important things to do and are also in high risk situations.
Disregarding all of this though. My point was that it's really shitty that the only gay romance of any substance is entirely built around the concept of childbirth. That is a problem! Imagine if Gil was a girl and the plotline was "The only way I can be useful to society as a woman is if I bear children." this is exactly as bad as that.
Yeah, I agree with this. The right way to handle Gil would have been for him to meet a longterm male partner in Andromeda and then for them to use Future Genetic Space Magic to have a kid who's genetically descended from both of them.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
So, a fun thing I was thinking about at work tonight. I'm stranded with a flat tire on the side of the road; the jack is broken and I have no cell signal. What would the Tempest squaddies do?
Cora would stop to help, but immediately call her boss to walk her through the process of replacing the tire.
Vetra wouldn't stop, but 27 minutes later a tow truck would arrive ready to take me wherever I needed.
Liam would stop to help, but he can't fix a tire and doesn't have a working jack anyway. Would just try and flag down someone else.
Jaal would stop to help, would fix the whole thing, and wouldn't accept the money you offered him as a reward, just tell you to pay it forward.
Drack would stop, laugh at you in the situation, then pick the front end of the car up while you swapped out the tire yourself. Then probably crack open a beer with you.
Peebee would walk up from the treeline and ask if you wanted to go birdwatching.
That sure was anticlimactic coming from the Asari Ark, went in and "Oh, Macen is gone, Rix you are the new Pathfinder".
In and out in 5 minutes, too bad they couldnt move the Ark due to the damage it sustained though, I wanted to see all 4 Arks docked at the Nexus.
honestly 2 intact arks and a heavily damaged but mobile ark out of 4 is not really that bad given the unexpectedly weirdly hostile space environment with the scourge combined with kett. Also it looked like the turian one was able to get a lot of its life pods off but I am guessing turians are going to be rare for a while compared to the others. Then again it looked like nexus had a pretty good mix from all races so turians may still be viable.
I thought that
it was mentioned that you managed to save about 15,000 cryo pods on the ark?
Posts
This one is too large and must be linked. Also missing my favorite crew member! (Jaal, it's missing Jaal)
Here is a comic about preferences.
I certainly hope Bioware does the right thing and makes Jaal romancible by both genders.
I could do without
Well, bluntly, yes. Donate sperm, donate eggs, whatever. Nobody says "you have to have a child and raise it and be a parent"; that's even an option for Gil, who started all this, and I kind of liked the conversation about being a donor vs being an actual father figure.
I'd assume every single member of the initiative has genetic material on file at the very least, or has agreed to donate eventually so storage isn't a concern, and somewhere in the contract is "so you know that once we set up a colony, it's time to get to making as many babies as you can, right?" Nobody's getting away with "oh, just one kid" either. It's time for 3+ per couple if at all possible, since 2 is only replacement.
The first couple generations of colony life would be, by our/Milky Way standards, Really Fucking Weird. Like if we modern humans suddenly were back to having to have enough kids to help out on the farm, and the obvious spares for when the mumps come through town and then Billy got et by wolves.
Under those circumstances, it wouldn't be that surprising to find people who are friends but not romantic deciding to create a child together for the purposes of raising it themselves (instead of donate-and-forget which might rub some people the wrong way). An entirely different social structure from what we know in the west could be created in such a culture - children raised by many parents/family members similar to the Angara.
Mass Effect: Sandlot
Oh I remember that day, when The Beast chased Be'ny damn near halfway across the planet - as big a junkyard Varren as there ever was. Even ruined the Pathfinders' day cake during that chase. We never forgot it.
Even the bad guys are trying to promote their own weird idea of what a family is.
Comics, Games, Booze
Technically Wraith and Adhi are Varren with fins instead of spikes and mechanical parts tacked onto them? :P
I love love love New Tuchanka and all the message boards for new fathers. Krogan dads are fuckin' adorable and have been since the original trilogy and that guy who was sure that a kiddo he saw in the female compound was his boy.
With such a small population I have to assume they have the technology to overcome the diversity problem.
It doesn't need to be a pattern - that anyone is spending time to present a woman as rabidly sex-crazed and then invite the audience to take delight in murdering her is incredibly offputting even if it was one time. It's effectively guro and doesn't need to be shared in a non-fetish audience.
Only sort of.
Basically that 160ish figure covers a generational expedition, but not permanent colonisation with a start population and no further fresh population influx.
If you're relying on tech to make reproduction viable, your population is in extreme danger from anything that threatens that tech. Whether it's running out of geneticists, equipment failure, accident, or simply everyone going "wait, why do we have to have a vat baby again?" it's prone to failure in a way that "okay, get to fuckin'!" just isn't.
I mean in context of Andromeda, all the Kett or Roekaar or whoever would have to do is "blow up the thing with the vats in it" and bam, there went humanity.
Sure but like sending people in cold hibernation also runs huge risks of "whoops power failure you're in a black hole now."
There's not really a safe way to move a population 2 million light years, I think.
Completely agree. But there's "unavoidable risk", like the stasis/travel aspect you mention, then "avoidable risk", like using a non-default or assisted method of species reproduction when you don't otherwise need to.
So, the safe/logical thing to do, from a planning/risk management standpoint, is to provide for artificial insemination and so forth in cases like the Gil/Jill example, or your average random fertility problem, have genetic therapy available like normal for medical issues, but leave reproduction as a whole to the method that's been serving the species for millennia, because the only moving parts THAT has are the fun ones. Even if you're knocked back hundreds of years down the tech tree like the Angara were, you can still have people make babies, even if you haven't got gene vats and such.
Not even a Hostage Situation mission? Wow that's harsh.
I think they may increase the movement speed debuff because right now it is really minor (or maybe disable dashing while carrying, so the movement speed slowing feels impactful) but it is nice that you can still defend yourself, and it is a pretty fun alternative to the other objectives that can pop up in matches.
The only one still that feels wrong is hack (or upload? I always get them mixed up). It is too easy by a long shot.
Glad to have it in the mix.
I'm surprised there was no new class today, last weeks stream hinted pretty heavily we'd see a new class before the end of april. Ah well.
EDIT: Hack should relocate every 1/3 bar. I think that'd fix it being too easy/boring.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Does anyone know if it also does in Andromeda?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
They really didn't think through hold powers with KBAM controls. There is no natural way to hold down, say, cryo beam, and move, with a normal control setup.
For now I'll probably just remap one of my mouse buttons to the button that does those abilities, but that just reminds me that it is dumb that you can't reassign skill keys for MP classes.
Also while I'm thinking of it, if you choose flamethrower for assault turret does it do the flamethrower in addition to normal shooting, or does it replace its shooting entirely?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
So is this something that only applies if it's minimally inconvenient, or is this still okay in Handmaid's Tale/Gears of War/etc. settings? Because personally, even at the least intrusive level, I think people have the right to their own bodies and everything in them and can choose to raise/donate/abstain as they wish, even without a setting where technology is so advanced that the supposed imperative is nigh-irrelevant. Miranda didn't have a mother, even in surrogate—her father simply modified his own genome. Gene therapy is so advanced in Mass Effect that even back by the First Contact War the Systems Alliance had laws restricting it because they had the ability to splice entirely new kinds of life or casually hybridize humans, and most genetic diseases had been wiped out of the population. If 160 people is enough to last a couple centuries before requiring additional material without any genetic tech, then any portion of 20k people is more than enough when you can edit the template at will.
Maybe if there's a collapse and all of this foundational setting tech is wiped out then the question of babymakin' contractual obligations will come to the foreground, but Mass Effect is too clean and optimistic a setting for that to be likely.
It did, and it listed it as a separate entry on the mod's benefits alongside the ballistic penetration ones. 95% sure it doesn't do the same in Andromeda.
It should for enemies that have armor plates(the Kett dogs have armor on their head that can be knocked off) but not for those that don't. I don't think that most of the armored units have plates.
Though it's likely that destroyers do, when they cover their snooty weak point in the middle)
Also, 5000 people is enough for completely undirected natural population viability. That is accounting for early deaths and non breeding individuals. Not to mention that you don't rely on your soldiers (or pathfinders in this case) to be part of your breeding population because they have more important things to do and are also in high risk situations.
Disregarding all of this though. My point was that it's really shitty that the only gay romance of any substance is entirely built around the concept of childbirth. That is a problem! Imagine if Gil was a girl and the plotline was "The only way I can be useful to society as a woman is if I bear children." this is exactly as bad as that.
Yeah, I agree with this. The right way to handle Gil would have been for him to meet a longterm male partner in Andromeda and then for them to use Future Genetic Space Magic to have a kid who's genetically descended from both of them.
Ha ha, while I appreciate the thought, I generally don't buy lithographs. T-shirts, figures and plushies though, yes.
I would totally buy FemShep+Garrus+Wrex
and Grunt
and Zaeed
and Moridin
and Kasumi
and EDI
and Joker
and Vega
ok so maybe now I'm glad they don't have more available
... Seriously?
Instead of you trying to put words in my mouth, how about you keep your delusions to yourself.
Cora would stop to help, but immediately call her boss to walk her through the process of replacing the tire.
Vetra wouldn't stop, but 27 minutes later a tow truck would arrive ready to take me wherever I needed.
Liam would stop to help, but he can't fix a tire and doesn't have a working jack anyway. Would just try and flag down someone else.
Jaal would stop to help, would fix the whole thing, and wouldn't accept the money you offered him as a reward, just tell you to pay it forward.
Drack would stop, laugh at you in the situation, then pick the front end of the car up while you swapped out the tire yourself. Then probably crack open a beer with you.
Peebee would walk up from the treeline and ask if you wanted to go birdwatching.
The Division, Warframe (XB1)
GT: Tanith 6227
I thought that