it's weird that nier automata has the reputation for needing to play through the game 7 times to get all the endings bc from what i've experienced (having just got into C), it's several distinct story bits, one after the other, some of which you play through from different perspectives and with different content and mechanics
like, i've seen drakengard 3, and that's definitely playing through the same game several times, and this ain't that
ok, so now that i've completed route C, i feel like i could use some advice
so, i'm guessing that i can go and try to make different decisions to change what happens?
also, on the chapter select screen, there's a thing for "quests completed". Those are the sidequests, right? Also, what's the best way to figure out how to do missed ones? I just tried going through an early part, and kept on checking the map for any little red dots that popped up, but nothing happened, and I'm not quite sure the best way to look them up. Should i just look up a guide?
ok, so now that i've completed route C, i feel like i could use some advice
so, i'm guessing that i can go and try to make different decisions to change what happens?
also, on the chapter select screen, there's a thing for "quests completed". Those are the sidequests, right? Also, what's the best way to figure out how to do missed ones? I just tried going through an early part, and kept on checking the map for any little red dots that popped up, but nothing happened, and I'm not quite sure the best way to look them up. Should i just look up a guide?
endings
Ending D is just making the other choice at the end of the game.
Ending E occurs automatically afterwards, when both C and D are done
Real talk ending E had an impact on me that I haven't felt from a game in years, maybe ever
how
Asking from genuine curiosity. I've seen lots of people saying stuff like this, and I don't understand a bit of it. It did nothing for me at all.
It just seemed like "yep these AI over here also developed some consciousness," which was frankly tired by this point, mixed with "also all the heroes are going to not stay dead lol aren't you surprised" when it was like no, I never believed a one of the deaths in the first place because the game kept pulling this.
I don't get where the emotional response is even supposed to come from. The only thing that kind of worked for me was shooting up the credits scene, which felt like "here, have some catharsis at the team that made this shit story so that you can force a happy ending out of it, because you the player have the real power," which winds up as this weird cocktail of novel indie rule-breaking and everything that's actually wrong with AAA games. Still haven't decided what I think about it. The progression of "Give up?" into stuff like "Do you think games are silly little things?" was kind of cool, but it felt inappropriate, wasted even, in the context of an immensely silly story.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
No offense intended Sauce, but from reading your posts I feel like you completely misinterpreted the story the game was trying to communicate to you and/or came to a totally different interpretation of the themes of the game
Ending E, entire game spoilers
The entire crux of the game is the interminable hell both sides are put through by long dead masters, to die, die, and die again for absolutely no reason what so ever. The machines do not need to fight the Androids at this point, and vice versa. Everything both groups do is 100% meaningless. Humanity was long dead before the aliens showed up. The aliens died almost immediately, because their robot weaponry were too clever for them to control (maybe this is due to exposure to human culture interacting with their evolutionary drive to combat opponents, it isn't clear).
The entire point of ending E are the companion intellengences of the Pods seemingly coming to grasp upon the idea that "this entire thing is bullshit, we went through everything for nothing, it isn't fair at this final moment everything we did should be completely thrown overboard because the assholes who restarted this cycle of endless violence wanted to cover their tracks", and going through impossible odds to try to save their friends against even their own programming, represented by the bullet hell they have to go through to keep the data of 2B, 9S, and A2 intact. And even the will to survive isn't enough. They have to sacrifice other androids' data to get past the obstacle, other players who willingly gave up themselves so you could survive. Again, more meaningless death for some asshole android who started the entire mess to continue the pointless war. They even say in the end "we don't know if this cycle will repeat itself" with 2B, 92, and A2. Maybe it will. Maybe it wont. But there's a chance they can now try to move past this. And that's good enough for me. And that's why I sacrificed my save file so somebody else could have that chance as well.
Real talk ending E had an impact on me that I haven't felt from a game in years, maybe ever
how
Asking from genuine curiosity. I've seen lots of people saying stuff like this, and I don't understand a bit of it. It did nothing for me at all.
It just seemed like "yep these AI over here also developed some consciousness," which was frankly tired by this point, mixed with "also all the heroes are going to not stay dead lol aren't you surprised" when it was like no, I never believed a one of the deaths in the first place because the game kept pulling this.
I don't get where the emotional response is even supposed to come from. The only thing that kind of worked for me was shooting up the credits scene, which felt like "here, have some catharsis at the team that made this shit story so that you can force a happy ending out of it, because you the player have the real power," which winds up as this weird cocktail of novel indie rule-breaking and everything that's actually wrong with AAA games. Still haven't decided what I think about it. The progression of "Give up?" into stuff like "Do you think games are silly little things?" was kind of cool, but it felt inappropriate, wasted even, in the context of an immensely silly story.
I'm not sure what explanation you're expecting that isn't just "the way you felt was wrong, actually"
The story didn't hit for you and that's OK, no-one needs to justify their emotional response
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
If it helps sauce, I felt the same way.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
If you want I could provide you with a big long post on existentialist literature and how this game fits in with that tradition and why that's rad as hell.
If you want I could provide you with a big long post on existentialist literature and how this game fits in with that tradition and why that's rad as hell.
Real talk ending E had an impact on me that I haven't felt from a game in years, maybe ever
how
Asking from genuine curiosity. I've seen lots of people saying stuff like this, and I don't understand a bit of it. It did nothing for me at all.
It just seemed like "yep these AI over here also developed some consciousness," which was frankly tired by this point, mixed with "also all the heroes are going to not stay dead lol aren't you surprised" when it was like no, I never believed a one of the deaths in the first place because the game kept pulling this.
I don't get where the emotional response is even supposed to come from. The only thing that kind of worked for me was shooting up the credits scene, which felt like "here, have some catharsis at the team that made this shit story so that you can force a happy ending out of it, because you the player have the real power," which winds up as this weird cocktail of novel indie rule-breaking and everything that's actually wrong with AAA games. Still haven't decided what I think about it. The progression of "Give up?" into stuff like "Do you think games are silly little things?" was kind of cool, but it felt inappropriate, wasted even, in the context of an immensely silly story.
It's been a little while so bear with me, the timing of some of these events might be off. It has very little to do with the in-universe fiction. It's 100% about the experience that it created, and how incredibly unique it was.
This game has been a pretty relentless onslaught of sad feels from the get go. We're talking 30ish hours of this game beating the characters - and through the transitive property, you - down over and over again. You've seen the game "end" a number of times at this stage, and none of these endings feel very optimistic. Finally, your final time repeating this cycle of existential cynicism, the credits halt. Your pod speaks up, and rejects this ending. It then starts addressing you - the player - directly, asking if you're done with this shit too. After so long, how could you not be??
You then have the option to fight back. You're literally shooting at the creators and producers of this product that has been beating you down for so long, and it's incredibly cathartic. But as time goes on, the names get more and more difficult. Eventually you get overwhelmed by these creators, yet again. You die. But something kind of amazing happens when you die this time. The screen slowly gets populated with all of these motivational, uplifting phrases that other players have left for you to encourage you to press on. It's incredibly uplifting.
So you try again. The music kicks up. You might make it a little further, but eventually you get overwhelmed. You again see these positive messages and decide to finally ask for help. You've been going this whole thing alone, but you get this feeling of community at this juncture and you run with it.
Then all of a sudden your ship is surrounded by other ships with players names tied to them. The music switches so that now a chorus is signing - a collective. And now you - with help from these strangers - have the ability to finish this thing. Every time one of their ships goes down a new one takes its place. It was such a positive release.
Finally you finish, the chorus at this point has drowned out the lyrics. You rejected this negative, lonely cycle with the power of community and positivity, and it is such this "emotional whiplash" moment. Finally you get to leave a message. It's cobbled together from a large number of prefab statements and you realize that you could have left negative messages. Anyone could have. But I didn't see a single one. For once, online, nobody was a jerk. It felt like everyone experiencing this moment wanted to persevere, and in turn motivate others to persevere. I left the most positive message I could. It was fucking beautiful.
Finally, you get asked if you want to help people in the same way they helped you - and it's revealed to you what that means. What all those other players did - they sacrificed their save. They had to make a decision that actually impacted them and they did it for altruistic reasons. I didn't even hesitate. What I just experienced was one of the most beautiful moments in any game I've played and I don't want to rob anyone else of that experience. Take my goddamn save. I don't need it anymore. Help someone the way I was helped.
The creators of this game found a way to use the medium of what a video game is, and provide you with this singular experience, this moment in time, that you could not have experienced via any other medium. It was wholly unique.
Finally, after all this shit, you realise you're not that alone, and that you can still make choices for yourself, and for the benefit of others.
It's just fucking beautiful.
At least to me.
Tasteticle on
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
Real talk ending E had an impact on me that I haven't felt from a game in years, maybe ever
how
Asking from genuine curiosity. I've seen lots of people saying stuff like this, and I don't understand a bit of it. It did nothing for me at all.
It just seemed like "yep these AI over here also developed some consciousness," which was frankly tired by this point, mixed with "also all the heroes are going to not stay dead lol aren't you surprised" when it was like no, I never believed a one of the deaths in the first place because the game kept pulling this.
I don't get where the emotional response is even supposed to come from. The only thing that kind of worked for me was shooting up the credits scene, which felt like "here, have some catharsis at the team that made this shit story so that you can force a happy ending out of it, because you the player have the real power," which winds up as this weird cocktail of novel indie rule-breaking and everything that's actually wrong with AAA games. Still haven't decided what I think about it. The progression of "Give up?" into stuff like "Do you think games are silly little things?" was kind of cool, but it felt inappropriate, wasted even, in the context of an immensely silly story.
I'm not sure what explanation you're expecting that isn't just "the way you felt was wrong, actually"
The story didn't hit for you and that's OK, no-one needs to justify their emotional response
I wasn't looking for an argument or demanding other people justify stuff, I was seriously baffled and wanted to understand. I've felt that way for quite a few days now.
Naphtali and Tasteticle gave me what I was looking for. I understand better how it worked for you. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to convey it.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
If you want I could provide you with a big long post on existentialist literature and how this game fits in with that tradition and why that's rad as hell.
You should do that.
Ok, hopefully have something tonight.
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
Real talk ending E had an impact on me that I haven't felt from a game in years, maybe ever
how
Asking from genuine curiosity. I've seen lots of people saying stuff like this, and I don't understand a bit of it. It did nothing for me at all.
It just seemed like "yep these AI over here also developed some consciousness," which was frankly tired by this point, mixed with "also all the heroes are going to not stay dead lol aren't you surprised" when it was like no, I never believed a one of the deaths in the first place because the game kept pulling this.
I don't get where the emotional response is even supposed to come from. The only thing that kind of worked for me was shooting up the credits scene, which felt like "here, have some catharsis at the team that made this shit story so that you can force a happy ending out of it, because you the player have the real power," which winds up as this weird cocktail of novel indie rule-breaking and everything that's actually wrong with AAA games. Still haven't decided what I think about it. The progression of "Give up?" into stuff like "Do you think games are silly little things?" was kind of cool, but it felt inappropriate, wasted even, in the context of an immensely silly story.
It's been a little while so bear with me, the timing of some of these events might be off. It has very little to do with the in-universe fiction. It's 100% about the experience that it created, and how incredibly unique it was.
This game has been a pretty relentless onslaught of sad feels from the get go. We're talking 30ish hours of this game beating the characters - and through the transitive property, you - down over and over again. You've seen the game "end" a number of times at this stage, and none of these endings feel very optimistic. Finally, your final time repeating this cycle of existential cynicism, the credits halt. Your pod speaks up, and rejects this ending. It then starts addressing you - the player - directly, asking if you're done with this shit too. After so long, how could you not be??
You then have the option to fight back. You're literally shooting at the creators and producers of this product that has been beating you down for so long, and it's incredibly cathartic. But as time goes on, the names get more and more difficult. Eventually you get overwhelmed by these creators, yet again. You die. But something kind of amazing happens when you die this time. The screen slowly gets populated with all of these motivational, uplifting phrases that other players have left for you to encourage you to press on. It's incredibly uplifting.
So you try again. The music kicks up. You might make it a little further, but eventually you get overwhelmed. You again see these positive messages and decide to finally ask for help. You've been going this whole thing alone, but you get this feeling of community at this juncture and you run with it.
Then all of a sudden your ship is surrounded by other ships with players names tied to them. The music switches so that now a chorus is signing - a collective. And now you - with help from these strangers - have the ability to finish this thing. Every time one of their ships goes down a new one takes its place. It was such a positive release.
Finally you finish, the chorus at this point has drowned out the lyrics. You rejected this negative, lonely cycle with the power of community and positivity, and it is such this "emotional whiplash" moment. Finally you get to leave a message. It's cobbled together from a large number of prefab statements and you realize that you could have left negative messages. Anyone could have. But I didn't see a single one. For once, online, nobody was a jerk. It felt like everyone experiencing this moment wanted to persevere, and in turn motivate others to persevere. I left the most positive message I could. It was fucking beautiful.
Finally, you get asked if you want to help people in the same way they helped you - and it's revealed to you what that means. What all those other players did - they sacrificed their save. They had to make a decision that actually impacted them and they did it for altruistic reasons. I didn't even hesitate. What I just experienced was one of the most beautiful moments in any game I've played and I don't want to rob anyone else of that experience. Take my goddamn save. I don't need it anymore. Help someone the way I was helped.
The creators of this game found a way to use the medium of what a video game is, and provide you with this singular experience, this moment in time, that you could not have experienced via any other medium. It was wholly unique.
Finally, after all this shit, you realise you're not that alone, and that you can still make choices for yourself, and for the benefit of others.
It's just fucking beautiful.
At least to me.
Dude.
Dude
You fucking nailed that explanation in a way I never could and made me kinda experience it again mentally.
I'm really glad the game struck a chord with so many people. There's a lot I like about it despite my qualms, and it's great that it gave people powerful experiences.
If you're tired of reading my bullshit, don't bother with the spoiler box (also it has actual spoilers too).
Could have been a set of unlucky circumstances or mental states that led to the story not clicking for me. I wish it could have been different; I enjoy playing it so much, and my partner and I were both really big on the game during route A. Like, it was easily our favorite game so far this year at that point, and we were talking openly about this game cracking our top5 or even top3 all-time lists.
The collapse, for both of us, was both quick and extreme. I think most of it can be pinned on route B for reasons discussed plenty before. That soured me so much on the whole experience that I put huge expectations onto C/D to turn it around or make it worthwhile. Though to be honest, the expectations were there from the beginning. I'd heard so much about the game's emotional resonance that I was overthinking the entirety of A, trying to figure out the game's mysteries. It was almost inevitable that it would lead to disappointment. I should have taken Yoko Taro's advice to not expect much; I probably would have been really pleasantly surprised instead.
It certainly didn't help that C/D went into dullsville territory really early, too. It opened strong, but the moment 2B dies it all went to hell for me plot-wise. It felt like everything degenerated into rote fetch quests, which was outright whiplash after the high-stakes segment opening. It was obviously filler, and that combined with how casually some of the big revelations were just quickly dumped via text boxes made it reek of rushed production / budget shortfalls to me.
Ending E / the credits segment partially worked for me regarding the catharsis against the developers (though for me it was less about the cynicism of the story and more about judgment about the low quality of the storytelling and its presentation). The big fail for me was the connecting online moment. I totally get how impactful that was to others, and I really wished it had resonated with me in the same way.
Instead, I felt like the game was condescending to me, Super Mario 3D World style. "Babby can't handle the bullet hell? Here you go, have a power-up that makes you invincible and trivializes the remainder of the play." That it featured an online component made it feel like a Dark Souls boss that I have to wimp out on by summoning a couple tricked-out players to kill the boss for me, robbing me of any sense of accomplishment. It was the final frustration, one last "fuck you" from the development team. Especially since the whole bit felt so transparent, because one of two things is true:
Option 1 is that the segment can be cleared solo. This was my first thought - if going online gets you help from other players whose saves were deleted (and I'd been spoiled on that already), then someone must have originally gotten through it alone in order to provide that first help. So going online is tantamount to accepting a cheat power-up to bypass the real final challenge. I wound up doing this eventually out of exasperation (and because it was getting rather late), but I was really unhappy to be doing it.
Option 2 is that the segment actually can't be cleared solo. I haven't researched this to see if it's the case, and I don't know enough about bullet hell gameplay to know if this is a fair hell or not. Anyway if it can't be cleared solo, then the developers would have had to add some code such that if you go online and it can't find any other players who have cleared it (because you're first for example) then it would just generate some fake helpers instead. If that's true then the whole "sacrifice to help others" bit is a total lie, and it becomes "sacrifice yourself to put your name into other people's games," which is a cynical outcome rather suited for the rest of the game actually.
That's pretty clearly me overthinking it, but it's what I experienced in that segment. Something like that was probably inevitable though, as the "power of community" never would have resonated with me. To me communities are scary things filled with dangerous people who can and will turn on you at any point, and they must be navigated like a trap-filled labyrinth as a necessary part of being alive. So any message communicating rejection of cynicism through community is going to lead to increased cynicism on my own part.
However, that last bit there isn't something I've ever actually thought about or understood about myself quite so directly before. So even with my highly negative reaction, I still have to give props to this game for getting me to consider it. Most games with wretched plots I just don't bother discussing. Maybe I wouldn't with this one either if I wasn't seeing so much positive reaction out there. But then I have with games like FF6, and those discussions have never left me feeling like I've learned anything as this one has.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Do I have to report myself to the council for punishment if I admit that I've gotten kinda tired of the combat and am playing the back half of Route A with all the auto shit on
Do I have to report myself to the council for punishment if I admit that I've gotten kinda tired of the combat and am playing the back half of Route A with all the auto shit on
naw
you might like the next route better, that has quite a bit of change on the combat front
If you're tired of it because there's too much of it, don't be afraid to skip side-quests and use transports / mounts / run away from irrelevant battles.
If you're tired of it because it's too easy, also consider skipping side-quests (over-leveling can make the game a bit mind-numbing) or bumping up the difficulty to Hard.
If you're tired of it because it's become too samey, do what you're doing until you progress far enough that the game is throwing some new shit at you. Keep an eye out for those changes though, as they may be missed if you're auto-ing through everything (oftentimes new enemies look so similar to old ones that you can only tell the difference because of how it changes the combat rhythm).
It could also be worthwhile to try drastic changes to your weapon and chipset configurations for a new pace. The Dragoon Spear in particular offers a different sort of way to play and a new optimization path for chips.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
I did all the sidequests I was interested in (or could even find because seriously this map is kinda unreadable) cause I know the story thing I'm gonna go on soon is a point of no return for some of them
I did all the sidequests I was interested in (or could even find because seriously this map is kinda unreadable) cause I know the story thing I'm gonna go on soon is a point of no return for some of them
This is a mild spoiler. I'm going to be as vague as possible, but it's your choice if you want to view it.
There are precious few points of no return in this game. You're fine leaving anything for later, even if it looks to you like the game has just locked it off forever (or even failed you).
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
I'm really glad the game struck a chord with so many people. There's a lot I like about it despite my qualms, and it's great that it gave people powerful experiences.
If you're tired of reading my bullshit, don't bother with the spoiler box (also it has actual spoilers too).
one of two things is true:
Option 1 is that the segment can be cleared solo. This was my first thought - if going online gets you help from other players whose saves were deleted (and I'd been spoiled on that already), then someone must have originally gotten through it alone in order to provide that first help. So going online is tantamount to accepting a cheat power-up to bypass the real final challenge. I wound up doing this eventually out of exasperation (and because it was getting rather late), but I was really unhappy to be doing it.
Option 2 is that the segment actually can't be cleared solo. I haven't researched this to see if it's the case, and I don't know enough about bullet hell gameplay to know if this is a fair hell or not. Anyway if it can't be cleared solo, then the developers would have had to add some code such that if you go online and it can't find any other players who have cleared it (because you're first for example) then it would just generate some fake helpers instead. If that's true then the whole "sacrifice to help others" bit is a total lie, and it becomes "sacrifice yourself to put your name into other people's games," which is a cynical outcome rather suited for the rest of the game actually.
Speaking as a programmer, and a sometimes game dev, it is absolutely option 2. You cheat wherever the hell you can. But it doesn't matter. The experience still exists. People are still making those choices. What's the functional difference between having your name on a helper ship or having a helper ship with your name on it?
The strings are always there, in anything. If you look for then you'll always find them. Entertainment products require the audience to kind of 'buy in' to the product in order to work. It's no different than a film, a book, a magic show, hell, a haunted house. You're selling an experience, not an absolute truth.
Tasteticle on
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
2B and (mainly) 9S keep going "how do these stupid robots understand these concepts like community and loyalty?"
and I keep shouting back at the TV "but YOU'RE robots too there's no difference here besides form factor!!"
My understanding (no story spoilers beyond where you are in the game):
Androids are specifically programmed with sentient consciousness, designed to mimic humanity, and function as individuals. The machines, created by the aliens as tools of war, were only granted comparatively simple routines necessary to perform their functions. But they are networked together, which can create some erratic changes. These have largely been random, but as you can see they have gotten more developed, and individuals like Pascal show that some (for whatever reason) achieve high-functioning sentience.
There's more, but that's well past your point in the story.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
2B and (mainly) 9S keep going "how do these stupid robots understand these concepts like community and loyalty?"
and I keep shouting back at the TV "but YOU'RE robots too there's no difference here besides form factor!!"
My understanding (no story spoilers beyond where you are in the game):
Androids are specifically programmed with sentient consciousness, designed to mimic humanity, and function as individuals. The machines, created by the aliens as tools of war, were only granted comparatively simple routines necessary to perform their functions. But they are networked together, which can create some erratic changes. These have largely been random, but as you can see they have gotten more developed, and individuals like Pascal show that some (for whatever reason) achieve high-functioning sentience.
There's more, but that's well past your point in the story.
I think you might be being a bit too literal...
There is no difference between androids and machines. They are exactly the same. They are lost children clinging to dead gods, fighting a needless war with no end in sight, and they don't even realize the pointlessness of their sacrifices and losses. It is a meant to mirror reflecting humanity - us.
// PSN: wyrd_warrior // MHW Name: Josei //
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Uhh...
Sure, but in a literal sense that doesn't answer Mr. G's question, which is why the hell are androids confused that machines are understanding advanced concepts.
And it's because for literally thousands of years machines effectively were just mindless murderbots. Sentience was a recent development.
masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
Well, no
The machines didn't just start getting intelligent, 2B and 9S just happened to be in the right place and position from which they could finally realize this without getting mind wiped
The machines have been fully sentient from the moment they killed their creators
Sure, but in a literal sense that doesn't answer Mr. G's question, which is why the hell are androids confused that machines are understanding advanced concepts.
And it's because for literally thousands of years machines effectively were just mindless murderbots. Sentience was a recent development.
(late-game spoilers, no Mr. G here)
Yeah, the differences are pretty stark from the beginning and if anything become more-so later on. There are still quite a few mindless murderbots out there, and when the network is severely damaged at the end of A/B, a lot of the machines are reduced to very basic behavior patterns (see: Amusement Park).
Machine identity is quite complex, with individual machines having a pretty wide range of inherent cognitive abilities; some are utterly network-dependent while others willfully disconnect from it. Pascal is virtually indistinguishable from an android even without a network at all, while most androids have roughly the same human range of sentience and cognitive function.
It's a super interesting and complicated setup, and it's a travesty the game doesn't delve further into that in C/D.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Posts
like, i've seen drakengard 3, and that's definitely playing through the same game several times, and this ain't that
Steam // Secret Satan
Thankfully, the critpath of A/B is incredibly short, so if you've spent a lot of time doing sidequests, B goes very quickly.
and then it has a bunch of new sidequests
so for me it ended up being even better because i had a bit of a better understanding of how it all goes
edit: i was bit wary at first when it started, but it ended up being really, really good
also
ending C
is good
edit 2: game mechanic
Steam // Secret Satan
also, on the chapter select screen, there's a thing for "quests completed". Those are the sidequests, right? Also, what's the best way to figure out how to do missed ones? I just tried going through an early part, and kept on checking the map for any little red dots that popped up, but nothing happened, and I'm not quite sure the best way to look them up. Should i just look up a guide?
Steam // Secret Satan
endings
Ending E occurs automatically afterwards, when both C and D are done
Steam // Secret Satan
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
that's what i figured and vaguely heard, but thanks for the heads up
especially considering
Steam // Secret Satan
Asking from genuine curiosity. I've seen lots of people saying stuff like this, and I don't understand a bit of it. It did nothing for me at all.
I don't get where the emotional response is even supposed to come from. The only thing that kind of worked for me was shooting up the credits scene, which felt like "here, have some catharsis at the team that made this shit story so that you can force a happy ending out of it, because you the player have the real power," which winds up as this weird cocktail of novel indie rule-breaking and everything that's actually wrong with AAA games. Still haven't decided what I think about it. The progression of "Give up?" into stuff like "Do you think games are silly little things?" was kind of cool, but it felt inappropriate, wasted even, in the context of an immensely silly story.
Ending E, entire game spoilers
The entire point of ending E are the companion intellengences of the Pods seemingly coming to grasp upon the idea that "this entire thing is bullshit, we went through everything for nothing, it isn't fair at this final moment everything we did should be completely thrown overboard because the assholes who restarted this cycle of endless violence wanted to cover their tracks", and going through impossible odds to try to save their friends against even their own programming, represented by the bullet hell they have to go through to keep the data of 2B, 9S, and A2 intact. And even the will to survive isn't enough. They have to sacrifice other androids' data to get past the obstacle, other players who willingly gave up themselves so you could survive. Again, more meaningless death for some asshole android who started the entire mess to continue the pointless war. They even say in the end "we don't know if this cycle will repeat itself" with 2B, 92, and A2. Maybe it will. Maybe it wont. But there's a chance they can now try to move past this. And that's good enough for me. And that's why I sacrificed my save file so somebody else could have that chance as well.
I'm not sure what explanation you're expecting that isn't just "the way you felt was wrong, actually"
The story didn't hit for you and that's OK, no-one needs to justify their emotional response
You should do that.
This game has been a pretty relentless onslaught of sad feels from the get go. We're talking 30ish hours of this game beating the characters - and through the transitive property, you - down over and over again. You've seen the game "end" a number of times at this stage, and none of these endings feel very optimistic. Finally, your final time repeating this cycle of existential cynicism, the credits halt. Your pod speaks up, and rejects this ending. It then starts addressing you - the player - directly, asking if you're done with this shit too. After so long, how could you not be??
You then have the option to fight back. You're literally shooting at the creators and producers of this product that has been beating you down for so long, and it's incredibly cathartic. But as time goes on, the names get more and more difficult. Eventually you get overwhelmed by these creators, yet again. You die. But something kind of amazing happens when you die this time. The screen slowly gets populated with all of these motivational, uplifting phrases that other players have left for you to encourage you to press on. It's incredibly uplifting.
So you try again. The music kicks up. You might make it a little further, but eventually you get overwhelmed. You again see these positive messages and decide to finally ask for help. You've been going this whole thing alone, but you get this feeling of community at this juncture and you run with it.
Then all of a sudden your ship is surrounded by other ships with players names tied to them. The music switches so that now a chorus is signing - a collective. And now you - with help from these strangers - have the ability to finish this thing. Every time one of their ships goes down a new one takes its place. It was such a positive release.
Finally you finish, the chorus at this point has drowned out the lyrics. You rejected this negative, lonely cycle with the power of community and positivity, and it is such this "emotional whiplash" moment. Finally you get to leave a message. It's cobbled together from a large number of prefab statements and you realize that you could have left negative messages. Anyone could have. But I didn't see a single one. For once, online, nobody was a jerk. It felt like everyone experiencing this moment wanted to persevere, and in turn motivate others to persevere. I left the most positive message I could. It was fucking beautiful.
Finally, you get asked if you want to help people in the same way they helped you - and it's revealed to you what that means. What all those other players did - they sacrificed their save. They had to make a decision that actually impacted them and they did it for altruistic reasons. I didn't even hesitate. What I just experienced was one of the most beautiful moments in any game I've played and I don't want to rob anyone else of that experience. Take my goddamn save. I don't need it anymore. Help someone the way I was helped.
The creators of this game found a way to use the medium of what a video game is, and provide you with this singular experience, this moment in time, that you could not have experienced via any other medium. It was wholly unique.
Finally, after all this shit, you realise you're not that alone, and that you can still make choices for yourself, and for the benefit of others.
It's just fucking beautiful.
At least to me.
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
Naphtali and Tasteticle gave me what I was looking for. I understand better how it worked for you. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to convey it.
Ok, hopefully have something tonight.
Dude.
Dude
You fucking nailed that explanation in a way I never could and made me kinda experience it again mentally.
Props.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
If you're tired of reading my bullshit, don't bother with the spoiler box (also it has actual spoilers too).
The collapse, for both of us, was both quick and extreme. I think most of it can be pinned on route B for reasons discussed plenty before. That soured me so much on the whole experience that I put huge expectations onto C/D to turn it around or make it worthwhile. Though to be honest, the expectations were there from the beginning. I'd heard so much about the game's emotional resonance that I was overthinking the entirety of A, trying to figure out the game's mysteries. It was almost inevitable that it would lead to disappointment. I should have taken Yoko Taro's advice to not expect much; I probably would have been really pleasantly surprised instead.
It certainly didn't help that C/D went into dullsville territory really early, too. It opened strong, but the moment 2B dies it all went to hell for me plot-wise. It felt like everything degenerated into rote fetch quests, which was outright whiplash after the high-stakes segment opening. It was obviously filler, and that combined with how casually some of the big revelations were just quickly dumped via text boxes made it reek of rushed production / budget shortfalls to me.
Ending E / the credits segment partially worked for me regarding the catharsis against the developers (though for me it was less about the cynicism of the story and more about judgment about the low quality of the storytelling and its presentation). The big fail for me was the connecting online moment. I totally get how impactful that was to others, and I really wished it had resonated with me in the same way.
Instead, I felt like the game was condescending to me, Super Mario 3D World style. "Babby can't handle the bullet hell? Here you go, have a power-up that makes you invincible and trivializes the remainder of the play." That it featured an online component made it feel like a Dark Souls boss that I have to wimp out on by summoning a couple tricked-out players to kill the boss for me, robbing me of any sense of accomplishment. It was the final frustration, one last "fuck you" from the development team. Especially since the whole bit felt so transparent, because one of two things is true:
Option 1 is that the segment can be cleared solo. This was my first thought - if going online gets you help from other players whose saves were deleted (and I'd been spoiled on that already), then someone must have originally gotten through it alone in order to provide that first help. So going online is tantamount to accepting a cheat power-up to bypass the real final challenge. I wound up doing this eventually out of exasperation (and because it was getting rather late), but I was really unhappy to be doing it.
Option 2 is that the segment actually can't be cleared solo. I haven't researched this to see if it's the case, and I don't know enough about bullet hell gameplay to know if this is a fair hell or not. Anyway if it can't be cleared solo, then the developers would have had to add some code such that if you go online and it can't find any other players who have cleared it (because you're first for example) then it would just generate some fake helpers instead. If that's true then the whole "sacrifice to help others" bit is a total lie, and it becomes "sacrifice yourself to put your name into other people's games," which is a cynical outcome rather suited for the rest of the game actually.
That's pretty clearly me overthinking it, but it's what I experienced in that segment. Something like that was probably inevitable though, as the "power of community" never would have resonated with me. To me communities are scary things filled with dangerous people who can and will turn on you at any point, and they must be navigated like a trap-filled labyrinth as a necessary part of being alive. So any message communicating rejection of cynicism through community is going to lead to increased cynicism on my own part.
However, that last bit there isn't something I've ever actually thought about or understood about myself quite so directly before. So even with my highly negative reaction, I still have to give props to this game for getting me to consider it. Most games with wretched plots I just don't bother discussing. Maybe I wouldn't with this one either if I wasn't seeing so much positive reaction out there. But then I have with games like FF6, and those discussions have never left me feeling like I've learned anything as this one has.
We're just discussing it, not like we're constructing elaborate orbiting bases from which to conduct war from or anything. That would be silly
naw
you might like the next route better, that has quite a bit of change on the combat front
So fuck the council
If you're tired of it because it's too easy, also consider skipping side-quests (over-leveling can make the game a bit mind-numbing) or bumping up the difficulty to Hard.
If you're tired of it because it's become too samey, do what you're doing until you progress far enough that the game is throwing some new shit at you. Keep an eye out for those changes though, as they may be missed if you're auto-ing through everything (oftentimes new enemies look so similar to old ones that you can only tell the difference because of how it changes the combat rhythm).
It could also be worthwhile to try drastic changes to your weapon and chipset configurations for a new pace. The Dragoon Spear in particular offers a different sort of way to play and a new optimization path for chips.
and I keep shouting back at the TV "but YOU'RE robots too there's no difference here besides form factor!!"
The strings are always there, in anything. If you look for then you'll always find them. Entertainment products require the audience to kind of 'buy in' to the product in order to work. It's no different than a film, a book, a magic show, hell, a haunted house. You're selling an experience, not an absolute truth.
Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
I think you might be being a bit too literal...
And it's because for literally thousands of years machines effectively were just mindless murderbots. Sentience was a recent development.
The machines have been fully sentient from the moment they killed their creators
Machine identity is quite complex, with individual machines having a pretty wide range of inherent cognitive abilities; some are utterly network-dependent while others willfully disconnect from it. Pascal is virtually indistinguishable from an android even without a network at all, while most androids have roughly the same human range of sentience and cognitive function.
It's a super interesting and complicated setup, and it's a travesty the game doesn't delve further into that in C/D.