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2B Or Not 2B [Nier: Automata]

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Posts

  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    Kupi wrote: »
    I finished my second play-through (on Hard!) yesterday, and man... Ending E really went over my head the first time. It means a lot more now that I actually understand what that whole abstraction meant.

    Incidentally, during that sequence:
    Pod 042 makes reference to the "connection we six formed". I'm guessing that the six he's referring to are 2B, 9S, A2, Pod 042, Pod 153, and... the player?

    Yeah, that's the only thing that makes sense.

    jnij103vqi2i.png
    StiltsKetBraNaphtaliOlivaw
  • RainfallRainfall Registered User regular
    Kupi wrote: »
    I finished my second play-through (on Hard!) yesterday, and man... Ending E really went over my head the first time. It means a lot more now that I actually understand what that whole abstraction meant.

    Incidentally, during that sequence:
    Pod 042 makes reference to the "connection we six formed". I'm guessing that the six he's referring to are 2B, 9S, A2, Pod 042, Pod 153, and... the player?

    Yeah, that's the only thing that makes sense.

    Welllll
    There's also Pod 042 A/B/C and Pod 153 A/B/C but I personally agree with the player interpretation since so much of ending E is 4th wall breaking anyway.

    MidniteCaulk Bite 6Etiowsaph blakeAndy JoeOlivaw
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    I bought this on PS4 since it's on sale for Golden Week. Now that I'm finally finished with Persona, I started it tonight. Good so far.

    Anything to do or not do early on?

  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    Also I will probably just use the Grimoire Weiss skin for my pod the whole game.

    Kevin CristAJRErin The Red
  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    I bought this on PS4 since it's on sale for Golden Week. Now that I'm finally finished with Persona, I started it tonight. Good so far.

    Anything to do or not do early on?

    Just follow your instincts and don't search out spoilers.

    Getting to level 25+ before route A endgame is a pretty good goal.

    jnij103vqi2i.png
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Route B was way easier than A.

    Now C is annoying the balls of me.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • turtleantturtleant Gunpla Dad is the best.Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    I bought this on PS4 since it's on sale for Golden Week. Now that I'm finally finished with Persona, I started it tonight. Good so far.

    Anything to do or not do early on?

    Probably don't bother doing any side quests right at the start. You get something to make them easier partway through run A.

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    turtleant wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    I bought this on PS4 since it's on sale for Golden Week. Now that I'm finally finished with Persona, I started it tonight. Good so far.

    Anything to do or not do early on?

    Probably don't bother doing any side quests right at the start. You get something to make them easier partway through run A.

    you mean
    teleporting between save vending machines?
    I don't think you should exactly WAIT for that to do side quests, just in general a good attitude to have towards them even after you get that ability is "don't feel too obligated to go out of your way to pick up or do them."

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  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Only you can decide what to do with the time given to you, knowing that one day opportunities will be gone.

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  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    Ms Dapper wrote: »
    Guess what I got :cool:
    C-OgULzU0AA0wQs.jpg

    I got the black t-shirt version of that, and I love it.

  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    I'm assuming the game is being straight with me and the stuff that says it's for selling really is for selling? I keep hesitating for some reason.

    Also does sidequest completion/incompletion carrry over to my next playthrough?

  • NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    I'm assuming the game is being straight with me and the stuff that says it's for selling really is for selling? I keep hesitating for some reason.

    Also does sidequest completion/incompletion carrry over to my next playthrough?

    yes, some can only be done with certain characters on certain routes, others are generic and can be done during certain points in the story by any character. you'll eventually get a chapter select so you can go back and do them as you will

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  • ZxerolZxerol for the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't do so i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    I'm assuming the game is being straight with me and the stuff that says it's for selling really is for selling? I keep hesitating for some reason.

    Ya, sell all the junk.

    Exception: keep the Desert Roses.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2017
    Ok, so after beating the game I have a bunch of questions.
    Why was it a big deal that 2B's name was actually 2E? I...did not understand how that was a shocking revelation.

    Do the androids on earth know about how the YoRHA keep getting replaced over and over?

    What does YoRHA stand for?

    What exactly did Poppola and Diavola do that caused them to be programmed to feel guilt all the time? I understand that it wasn't these particular Poppola/Diavola that caused that and it's part of the original NieR game, but I don't care about spoilers. I don't really know why/how they helped fuck everything up wrt to the Gestalts and Replicants.

    And one thing that I kept thinking the entire game:
    Dude, androids are robots. Don't get all high and fucking mighty over these guys just because you look more humanoid than the tincans do. So the 'revelation' that the YorHA Androids were made using the cores/souls of the robits made all the perfect sense in the world.

    Which makes me ask something else:
    From what I understand (and I could be flat out wrong about this) is that robots have some obsession or trait that they cling to above all else and helps define who they are. At least the non-networked robots. So they might be super about beauty or super about pacifism or super about their sister or their brother or God or whatever. So wouldn't that mean that the Androids made from robot souls have the same quirk to them? I can see 9S being super about saving/helping 2B, but a lot of the other androids I didn't really get what their obsession was. I am not super sure what 2B's obsession was supposed to be anyway.

    And finally:
    So uh....what was 2A's deal? Like, her backstory. I kept thinking they would go super into it and I would play part of it, but I never did.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Ok, so after beating the game I have a bunch of questions.
    Why was it a big deal that 2B's name was actually 2E? I...did not understand how that was a shocking revelation.

    Do the androids on earth know about how the YoRHA keep getting replaced over and over?

    What does YoRHA stand for?

    What exactly did Poppola and Diavola do that caused them to be programmed to feel guilt all the time? I understand that it wasn't these particular Poppola/Diavola that caused that and it's part of the original NieR game, but I don't care about spoilers. I don't really know why/how they helped fuck everything up wrt to the Gestalts and Replicants.

    And one thing that I kept thinking the entire game:
    Dude, androids are robots. Don't get all high and fucking mighty over these guys just because you look more humanoid than the tincans do. So the 'revelation' that the YorHA Androids were made using the cores/souls of the robits made all the perfect sense in the world.

    Which makes me ask something else:
    From what I understand (and I could be flat out wrong about this) is that robots have some obsession or trait that they cling to above all else and helps define who they are. At least the non-networked robots. So they might be super about beauty or super about pacifism or super about their sister or their brother or God or whatever. So wouldn't that mean that the Androids made from robot souls have the same quirk to them? I can see 9S being super about saving/helping 2B, but a lot of the other androids I didn't really get what their obsession was. I am not super sure what 2B's obsession was supposed to be anyway.

    And finally:
    So uh....what was 2A's deal? Like, her backstory. I kept thinking they would go super into it and I would play part of it, but I never did.

    Sounds like you didn't read a lot of the logs that unlocked as the game went on (including the stuff in the resistance camp during Route C), or missed a specific side quest that explains your first question.
    2E, as E for Execution unit. The reason 2B does not want to get close to 9S as they've been implied to be working together all along, and every time he uncovers the truth of YoRHa she has to kill him and he gets his memory/personality reset. Over. and over. Its why she loses at the end of route A/B, because she has to kill him AGAIN. There's a sidequest you can find in the City Ruins in Route B where 9S runs into a resistance member trying to find out who killed their friend, and it turns out the quest giver is the one that did it, and then nuked their memory. It turns out they're a YoRHa execution unit as well, there to deal with resistance members who have found out about YoRHa's secrets.

    No idea what YoRHa stands for.

    Other androids (we don't know who) reprogrammed the remaining Devola/Popala series to feel guilt over what the NieR copies did, even if it really wasn't their fault humanity was forever lost they got the blame for it. And were made to suffer for it (if you did their quests in Route C, you got a bunch of story from them). They're basically the scapegoats of the entire end game of NieR, and and outlet for all of the androids frustration for failing the ultimate goal of saving humanity. Whoever created YoRHa, did so to try to recreate a reason for everyone to keep fighting the aliens and then the machines by lying that there were humans left alive. There's a real big open question at the end of the game of who this is who was behind the entire YoRHa plan.

    The whole point of the game is the entire Machine vs Android feud was pointless, and petty. The individual(s) behind YoRHa used machine cores as the black box for YoRHa units for all intents and purposes are suicide units, so why make them 'pure' androids.

    I don't know enough about the obsession/gift stuff to speak to that, or its relation to the YoRHa units. Their main issue was constantly being told to suppress their emotions, and being unable to regular in the face of all the horror they kept facing (or learning they did face, and lost those memories for one reason or another (memory wipe or death before backup to the bunker)). The big deal is everyone was trying to emulate humans without really understanding what that meant, and how to deal with it. Shits fucked!

    A2's entire deal is she was part of a first trial run of YoRHa units that took out a huge machine installation with resistance members, including Anemony. If you go to the resistance camp with A2 and spoke with her, it opened up being able to look at the console behind her and get a big text dump on her background. A2's personality and fighting style was the template for the entire Battle and Execution series YoRHa units due to the results of their mission, but she went AWOL after all her friends died in the mission.

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  • DeansDeans Registered User regular
    Ok, so after beating the game I have a bunch of questions.
    Why was it a big deal that 2B's name was actually 2E? I...did not understand how that was a shocking revelation.

    Do the androids on earth know about how the YoRHA keep getting replaced over and over?

    What does YoRHA stand for?

    What exactly did Poppola and Diavola do that caused them to be programmed to feel guilt all the time? I understand that it wasn't these particular Poppola/Diavola that caused that and it's part of the original NieR game, but I don't care about spoilers. I don't really know why/how they helped fuck everything up wrt to the Gestalts and Replicants.
    The E units are Executioners, 2B was assigned to work with 9S and kill him or wipe his memories every time he got too close to the truth. It's implied that this happened more times than we see.

    I don't think YoRHA necessarily gets replaced every time, it's just one aspect of an ongoing plan to keep the androids on Earth motivated to fight.

    I believe Yoko Taro said that YoRHA doesn't stand for anything.

    The Popola and Devola models were androids assigned to oversee the Gestalt project, which was a desperate attempt to save humanity from a certain disease. Basically the Popola and Devola in the original game screwed up and couldn't prevent Nier from ruining the project, dooming humanity to extinction.

  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Ok, so after beating the game I have a bunch of questions.
    Why was it a big deal that 2B's name was actually 2E? I...did not understand how that was a shocking revelation.

    Do the androids on earth know about how the YoRHA keep getting replaced over and over?

    What does YoRHA stand for?

    What exactly did Poppola and Diavola do that caused them to be programmed to feel guilt all the time? I understand that it wasn't these particular Poppola/Diavola that caused that and it's part of the original NieR game, but I don't care about spoilers. I don't really know why/how they helped fuck everything up wrt to the Gestalts and Replicants.

    And one thing that I kept thinking the entire game:
    Dude, androids are robots. Don't get all high and fucking mighty over these guys just because you look more humanoid than the tincans do. So the 'revelation' that the YorHA Androids were made using the cores/souls of the robits made all the perfect sense in the world.

    Which makes me ask something else:
    From what I understand (and I could be flat out wrong about this) is that robots have some obsession or trait that they cling to above all else and helps define who they are. At least the non-networked robots. So they might be super about beauty or super about pacifism or super about their sister or their brother or God or whatever. So wouldn't that mean that the Androids made from robot souls have the same quirk to them? I can see 9S being super about saving/helping 2B, but a lot of the other androids I didn't really get what their obsession was. I am not super sure what 2B's obsession was supposed to be anyway.

    And finally:
    So uh....what was 2A's deal? Like, her backstory. I kept thinking they would go super into it and I would play part of it, but I never did.

    Whole game
    The reveal that 2B is actually 2E is a big deal because of what it means about her function. E units exist to murder other units, and her assignment specifically is to murder 9S every time he figures out the truth about YoRHa before he can use that information to undermine the organization's purpose. Which in turn recontextualizes their entire relationship. It's worth it to either start up a new game or watch some early stuff on YouTube and realize that every interaction between them is dripping in subtext related to this revelation. 2B legitimately loves 9S, platonically if not romantically, and her interactions with him all stem from wanting to keep from forming a deeper relationship with him so that it won't be too painful when she inevitably has to kill him, something which she consistently fails at.

    I think SOME androids know about what's really happening with YoRHa, particularly very old or high ranking ones. Presumably there's some group of androids somewhere that's behind the whole plan. But the average android has no idea. YoRHa exists explicitly to perpetuate the illusion that humanity still exists, to boost the morale of androids to keep fighting the machines.

    No clue what YoRHa stands for, if anything

    I'm not super knowledgeable about the plot of Nier, but my understanding is that a separate set of Popola/Devola models were major antagonists in that game, and are responsible for why humanity no longer exists.

    Definitely agree with you about the androids vs robots thing. Early on I was sort of annoyed that they kept making this weird, arbitrary distinction, and the revelation that the distinction IS arbitrary and essentially jingoist propaganda was really cool.

    I don't think the robots HAVE to have an obsession at their core, but most of them do. The machines have a basic directive to "defeat the androids," which is why they never actually win the war. If they succeeded, they would be incapable of working toward completing their directive, and there's no protocol on place for getting a new one, since they murdered their masters and all

    The androids are explicitly programmed to love humanity and want to protect them. This is alluded to in the final fight between 9S and A2, where 9S talks about how even though he knows that everything is a lie he still desperately wants to defend humanity.

    A2's backstory is actually covered in a stage play of all things. She was involved in a major battle where she was expected to die, but survived and went rogue as a result. If you do enough side quests at the resistance camp you can unlock a prose adaptation of the stage play. You get the broad strokes from the main story though I thought, though it's definitely a little weird that she's not explored a little bit more

  • masterofmetroidmasterofmetroid Have you ever looked at a world and seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered User regular
    Original Nier spoilers
    If you want another reason to be real sad

    The original Popola and Devola units didn't turn from their function at any point, they just failed to protect the original Gestalt in the face of Team Papa Nier, who at this point are a trio of unstoppable forces of nature

    And what amounts to an entire race of androids are scapegoated and given horrible depression for this

    So that's some fucked up shit

    NaphtaliturtleantMidniteCaulk Bite 6Olivaw
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    Original Nier spoilers
    If you want another reason to be real sad

    The original Popola and Devola units didn't turn from their function at any point, they just failed to protect the original Gestalt in the face of Team Papa Nier, who at this point are a trio of unstoppable forces of nature

    And what amounts to an entire race of androids are scapegoated and given horrible depression for this

    So that's some fucked up shit

    Route C spoilers
    When the twins showed up to help fight and Song of the Ancients started playing I honestly got choked up, because I knew what was going to happen

    They were going to die

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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Whole game
    The biggest lingering question I have as far as the nuts and bolts of the plot goes is, who the heck was behind YoRHa? It's a huge project that would have required a ton of resources and organization, and considering that outside of YoRHa the highest authority we see is anenome in the resistance camp, something seems off about it

    I think the machines might be behind it.

    N2 specifically talks about how they need a strong enemy to pressure the machines to keep evolving. The YoRHa units are made using machine parts. What android would be familiar enough with machine technology to engineer the black box? The machines have tons of data on project YoRHa. Bunker is designed to be compromised once whoever's in charge of the project determines that they've collected enough data from the androids, and this happens at almost the exact same time as the completion of the Tower, a machine based data gathering system that's preparing to launch all of their collected data into space.

    No matter how I look at it, the machines seem like the most likely group to be behind Project YoRHa. They seem like the only faction with the resources to make something that big and complex, and the project seems to directly coincide with all of the machines' goals.

    Caulk Bite 6
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Whole game
    The biggest lingering question I have as far as the nuts and bolts of the plot goes is, who the heck was behind YoRHa? It's a huge project that would have required a ton of resources and organization, and considering that outside of YoRHa the highest authority we see is anenome in the resistance camp, something seems off about it

    I think the machines might be behind it.

    N2 specifically talks about how they need a strong enemy to pressure the machines to keep evolving. The YoRHa units are made using machine parts. What android would be familiar enough with machine technology to engineer the black box? The machines have tons of data on project YoRHa. Bunker is designed to be compromised once whoever's in charge of the project determines that they've collected enough data from the androids, and this happens at almost the exact same time as the completion of the Tower, a machine based data gathering system that's preparing to launch all of their collected data into space.

    No matter how I look at it, the machines seem like the most likely group to be behind Project YoRHa. They seem like the only faction with the resources to make something that big and complex, and the project seems to directly coincide with all of the machines' goals.
    http://nierautomata.wiki.fextralife.com/Machine+Research+Report makes it seem pretty likely that androids are in the dark about it

    Naphtali
  • Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    There is a bunch of untranslated dtuff about that in various new novels

    p0a2ody6sqnt.jpg
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Original Nier spoilers
    If you want another reason to be real sad

    The original Popola and Devola units didn't turn from their function at any point, they just failed to protect the original Gestalt in the face of Team Papa Nier, who at this point are a trio of unstoppable forces of nature

    And what amounts to an entire race of androids are scapegoated and given horrible depression for this

    So that's some fucked up shit

    Yeah, see, that's what I thought had happened.

    But I guess:
    They didn't do anything wrong at all and are just scapegoated as "The Reason Why Things Went To Shit".

    But the way the game kept hammering home the whole "These two units were specifically fucked up and it ruined everything" lead me to think that maybe there was a point in NieR where they went rogue slightly or that they helped the replicants when they weren't supposed to or something. But no, "scapegoats because we have to blame something for this" fits perfectly within the scope of Automata.


    And going back to what I said before (endgame spoilers)
    I picked up the whole "2B has to kill 9S over and over and over again" part from the story. I just never got the "B stands for battle" and "E stands for execution" parts.

    I didn't do a bunch of sidequests because I wasn't super interested in a lot of them. I wanted to see where the meat of the story went and a lot of the sidequests I did do were very...minor in the grand scheme of things.

    And I picked up on the "2B really cares for 9S but is desperately trying to be distant for raisins" early on, since the game made that painfully obvious by the end of the preview area even. At the end of route A when she said "No...not again. Why does it always end like this?" I thought she was trying to be distant because 9S kept dying on her for one reason or another. It wasn't until the end of the game when it pretty much spelled the whole thing out that I came to realize "Oh, her job is to kill him if he knows too much"

    And uh...I hope I'm not alone in this. But for basically the whole game I thought Pascal had some sinister motive to his actions. I mean, his name is Pascal and he's the head of the robot village. And everywhere he sends you on a mission for peace ends up being a total hellhole where you slaughter robots. But nope, he was really just that earnest right up until I turned him into a mindless shopkeeper.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Whole game
    The biggest lingering question I have as far as the nuts and bolts of the plot goes is, who the heck was behind YoRHa? It's a huge project that would have required a ton of resources and organization, and considering that outside of YoRHa the highest authority we see is anenome in the resistance camp, something seems off about it

    I think the machines might be behind it.

    N2 specifically talks about how they need a strong enemy to pressure the machines to keep evolving. The YoRHa units are made using machine parts. What android would be familiar enough with machine technology to engineer the black box? The machines have tons of data on project YoRHa. Bunker is designed to be compromised once whoever's in charge of the project determines that they've collected enough data from the androids, and this happens at almost the exact same time as the completion of the Tower, a machine based data gathering system that's preparing to launch all of their collected data into space.

    No matter how I look at it, the machines seem like the most likely group to be behind Project YoRHa. They seem like the only faction with the resources to make something that big and complex, and the project seems to directly coincide with all of the machines' goals.

    In response to that:
    I really thought that there were just a small group of androids that made all these decisions, like a ruling class. Like maybe the guys who maintain the human server on the moon are the guys who thought up this whole thing. I could be entirely wrong because I seem to have missed a lot of information that was present in the game, but that's what I kept thinking as I played through and I didn't see anything to contradict it.

    But then again, I was totally batshit out of my mind wrong about Pascal. Soooooo.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Mikey CTSMikey CTS Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    I think a lot of people feel that way. I did. And then I kept playing and realized I was wrong.
    Many previous scenes reveal new context or subtext as the game progresses. It's crazy good writing.

    Mikey CTS on
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    RainfallOats
  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Pascal, whole game
    It did occur to me that pascal gets 2B to walk straight into the trap set by the death cult, and that while she's distracted with it the resistance camp is raided

    I wasn't necessarily suspecting him of being evil but I wouldn't have been too shocked if he had been

    In the end the way pascal's story ends is way more tragic and interesting than if he'd just turned out to be a traitor

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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Whole game
    The biggest lingering question I have as far as the nuts and bolts of the plot goes is, who the heck was behind YoRHa? It's a huge project that would have required a ton of resources and organization, and considering that outside of YoRHa the highest authority we see is anenome in the resistance camp, something seems off about it

    I think the machines might be behind it.

    N2 specifically talks about how they need a strong enemy to pressure the machines to keep evolving. The YoRHa units are made using machine parts. What android would be familiar enough with machine technology to engineer the black box? The machines have tons of data on project YoRHa. Bunker is designed to be compromised once whoever's in charge of the project determines that they've collected enough data from the androids, and this happens at almost the exact same time as the completion of the Tower, a machine based data gathering system that's preparing to launch all of their collected data into space.

    No matter how I look at it, the machines seem like the most likely group to be behind Project YoRHa. They seem like the only faction with the resources to make something that big and complex, and the project seems to directly coincide with all of the machines' goals.

    In response to that:
    I really thought that there were just a small group of androids that made all these decisions, like a ruling class. Like maybe the guys who maintain the human server on the moon are the guys who thought up this whole thing. I could be entirely wrong because I seem to have missed a lot of information that was present in the game, but that's what I kept thinking as I played through and I didn't see anything to contradict it.

    But then again, I was totally batshit out of my mind wrong about Pascal. Soooooo.
    i think that's what the game wants you to think, it definitely seems like it's hinting at YoRHa being organized by some android authority

    But there's no explicit references to that authority. The androids all answer to the nonexistent council of humanity, the orders of which are generated by YoRHa. There might be some androids out there that are in a position to set all this up, but they're not in the game at all. Meanwhile the machines explicitly have the means AND motivation to do it. In lieu of more information Occam's Razor seems like it points to the whole thing being a machine setup.

  • mxmarksmxmarks Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Detailed answer to the question about original NieR. I highly recommend you just play it if you even have a slight curiosity and about 30 hours to do it. But if you must:
    Devola and Popola - not the ones from Automata, just other versions - kind of manage a small town of Replicants. Replicants are technically not Androids -
    they're human body shells with enough sentience to take care of themselves and wait for their souls to return to after a disease has finally been eradicated. NieR is a dude Replicant who has a sick daughter. Her Replicant body is corrupted and she will die (and therefore be unable to host her soul again), and NieR is super worried. Over thousands of years, Replicants have gotten smarter and more independent and have a nice little society. They have no idea they're not real humans. Popola and Devola are Android's made by humans to manage the village. Secretly do maintenance, fake things like pregnancy and birth, and just keep the town happy and dumb until they get the word to reunite the souls with the Replicants and bring true humanity back.

    So NieR does odd jobs and is constantly asking everyone about how to cure his daughter. Through a combo of Devola and Popola stupidly using this to have him go find some of keys to force the reunion of souls and Replicants for them, dumb luck of running into the right folks at the right time who know the right things, and meeting some super powerful companions (one of which is Emil), eventually Devola and Popola realize NieR kinda has the key to force this and he shouldn't have that much power. NieR has no idea what he has. Oops?

    So they step in to try to stop him and get the keys.

    They fail. NieR ends up kicking their asses and obviously now hates them for attacking him. He's still completely unaware what he has.

    And NieR ultimately ends up just fighting everyone until he destroys a vital part of the key to force a reunion. So the plan, after thousands of years, is impossible.

    Devola and Popola continue to try and stop him,
    growing crazier and crazier in an attempt to salvage SOMETHING (souls and Replicants still exist, so even if the plan to force them together is dead, maybe there's some hope they can reunite on their own eventually? Both have sentience now and don't realize what they are at all, so it's not likely, but...maybe?)

    Eventually NieR kills them both in battle. They have failed.

    Then NieR kills the soul that was the only thing preventing the OTHER souls from going insane. Dooming all human souls to a eventually go insane and die out. Officially damning humanity.

    All because Devola and Popola fucked up.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Oh. And a question about the secret boss (since I watched that on YouTube because like hell am I doing all the prereqs):
    Where the fuck did Emil's clones come from??? WHY DOES HE HAVE CLONES?! And for that matter HOW DID HE END UP INSIDE A ROBOT HEAD?!

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Whole game
    The biggest lingering question I have as far as the nuts and bolts of the plot goes is, who the heck was behind YoRHa? It's a huge project that would have required a ton of resources and organization, and considering that outside of YoRHa the highest authority we see is anenome in the resistance camp, something seems off about it

    I think the machines might be behind it.

    N2 specifically talks about how they need a strong enemy to pressure the machines to keep evolving. The YoRHa units are made using machine parts. What android would be familiar enough with machine technology to engineer the black box? The machines have tons of data on project YoRHa. Bunker is designed to be compromised once whoever's in charge of the project determines that they've collected enough data from the androids, and this happens at almost the exact same time as the completion of the Tower, a machine based data gathering system that's preparing to launch all of their collected data into space.

    No matter how I look at it, the machines seem like the most likely group to be behind Project YoRHa. They seem like the only faction with the resources to make something that big and complex, and the project seems to directly coincide with all of the machines' goals.

    In response to that:
    I really thought that there were just a small group of androids that made all these decisions, like a ruling class. Like maybe the guys who maintain the human server on the moon are the guys who thought up this whole thing. I could be entirely wrong because I seem to have missed a lot of information that was present in the game, but that's what I kept thinking as I played through and I didn't see anything to contradict it.

    But then again, I was totally batshit out of my mind wrong about Pascal. Soooooo.
    i think that's what the game wants you to think, it definitely seems like it's hinting at YoRHa being organized by some android authority

    But there's no explicit references to that authority. The androids all answer to the nonexistent council of humanity, the orders of which are generated by YoRHa. There might be some androids out there that are in a position to set all this up, but they're not in the game at all. Meanwhile the machines explicitly have the means AND motivation to do it. In lieu of more information Occam's Razor seems like it points to the whole thing being a machine setup.
    My take on this is that this is nowhere near the first iteration of YoRHa. This struck me as I was replaying from the start for the second time; right after the prologue, you get the big propaganda video describing the purpose of YoRHa as being to destroy the machine lifeforms created by the aliens. That's not just for the player's benefit; you might well be right in the middle of a YoRHa bootup at that point in the story. YoRHa can be regenerated from the moon base an arbitrary number of times. If they win too hard, the backdoor destroys them all and they start over. If anyone figures out the secret, the backdoor destroys them all and they start over. The events of Automata are merely the final iteration, when the Terminals finally decide to end the cycle.

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  • Ms DapperMs Dapper Yuri Librarian Registered User regular
    Oh. And a question about the secret boss (since I watched that on YouTube because like hell am I doing all the prereqs):
    Where the fuck did Emil's clones come from??? WHY DOES HE HAVE CLONES?! And for that matter HOW DID HE END UP INSIDE A ROBOT HEAD?!
    Emil made the clones himself. The Emil you meet in the game is hinted at being one of those copies but he doesn't really know who or where the "true" Emil is. As for how he ended up in the robot head, he probably got bored of fighting and eventually just started hiding out.

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  • AJRAJR Some guy who wrestles NorwichRegistered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Oh. And a question about the secret boss (since I watched that on YouTube because like hell am I doing all the prereqs):
    Where the fuck did Emil's clones come from??? WHY DOES HE HAVE CLONES?! And for that matter HOW DID HE END UP INSIDE A ROBOT HEAD?!
    I’d recommend at least doing the initial Emil’s memories quest, since it gives a bit of a backstory and it’s one of the biggest callbacks to the first game. I can’t be bothered doing all the requirements to actually fight Emil, but I was happy to do that first section.

    But yeah, like Ms Dapper said, it’s not OG Emil you see in the game. He created clones of himself to help fight the aliens, slowly fragmenting his memories over time. Emil was turned into a rolling head at the end of Nier, but how he managed to clone himself is never really explained because of his fractured memories.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    But doesn't that mean...
    That humans aren't dead?

    Because Emil is a human. Or part human. Right?

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    But doesn't that mean...
    That humans aren't dead?

    Because Emil is a human. Or part human. Right?
    Basm7di.jpg

    which part....do you think....is human

  • AJRAJR Some guy who wrestles NorwichRegistered User regular
    But doesn't that mean...
    That humans aren't dead?

    Because Emil is a human. Or part human. Right?
    Possibly. I'm pretty sure the "clones" are robotic in nature, but I'm not sure. And OG Emil could be anywhere.
    But doesn't that mean...
    That humans aren't dead?

    Because Emil is a human. Or part human. Right?
    Basm7di.jpg

    which part....do you think....is human
    His mind. He's trapped in a body he doesn't like, but he's still got the memories of his past self. At the very least, he's a remnant of humanity that still possibly exists.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    But doesn't that mean...
    That humans aren't dead?

    Because Emil is a human. Or part human. Right?
    Basm7di.jpg

    which part....do you think....is human
    what do you mean? That's beloved video game director Yoko Taro!

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
    AJR
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    that aside
    obsessing over whether there is some remnant of humanity

    is perhaps not the message :P

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    that aside
    obsessing over whether there is some remnant of humanity

    is perhaps not the message :P
    I mean, it's important though. Because protecting humans is what gives androids life meaning. So if they knew that Emil was actually partially human then it would drastically change the story :rotate:

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • masterofmetroidmasterofmetroid Have you ever looked at a world and seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered User regular
    Depends on how you define human i guess!

    Emil is a genetic/magic engineered weapon, so it's a tough call from a physical POV

    From the more important standpoint he's the nicest boy that ever was, and that should count for something

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