I didnt start till later in the night when east coast was mostly in bed so I didnt really have any problems. The "play offline" thing was only on the screen for a second. Played through prologue and part of the human campaign without issue.
So its pretty much every online release ever. And the game is beautiful in 4k.
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
I wonder if they'll ever release the higher res assets they stripped out and let fans finish the job
Wow yeah. The classic one is just so much more vibrant and detailed looking. How could an HD remaster make textures and environments look significantly less detailed and stylized?
it was definitely pretty bad at one point in the beta
the main issue in my book is some of the units its very difficult to tell team color, and in the case of the undead, it can be hard to tell units from one another, as there are several "small ghoul/skeleton" options
I actually prefer the tree models (and ground textures) of the second one. They don't scream "LOOK AT THESE GIANT BLADES OF GRASS THE SIZE OF PRINTER PAPER" as much. But that's purely an aesthetic choice and personal evaluation.
And they're not really impressive still. I wasn't expecting Halo Wars 2 or something, but after this long delay, and the success (I thought) of the 2D Starcraft remaster...hmm.
SC:R did seem to be a lot more successful, both in execution and reception, but it's worth noting it had a bunch of problems with the multiplayer system on release as well. From what I'm hearing, maybe not as bad, though.
SC:R was also, honestly, a much simpler project with its sights aimed lower. It just wanted to modernize StarCraft, and reproduce its art accurately and in HD. Obviously that's no small feat, and the extent to which they succeeded at that is amazing, but I feel like it kind of got to Blizzard's ego and they bit off way more than they could chew with a smallish Classics team, a more technically complicated game, with much more art, and higher ambitions for a remaster.
problems with the multiplayer system would be welcome
there is no multiplayer system right now except that technically you can play against a random person online, and have your stats vented into outer space because as far as we can tell there is absolutely no record keeping at all right now
Reforged arguably makes the game worse in many ways, and in its place, you only get some good-but-not-great new graphics
I am going to backseat a little bit out of frustration because I had such high hopes for this game... my understanding is that a major part of this project was supporting backward compatibility with custom maps. In doing so, they got saddled with having to do updated graphics on literally THOUSANDS of models which actually are not used in the campaigns or competitive online at all... and bugfixing the scripting engine on hundreds of old custom maps... vastly increasing the scope of the project for..... people playing tower defense still? in 2020?
i would have much preferred they just left custom alone entirely and made the ladder work... or just have custom maps still run the old EXE... or ask people to port their customs forward into the new engine.
I started the prologue campaign last night. Beat the first mission, which basically just has you walking around the map as Thrall a bit. No issues there.
Started the next mission, which is the base building tutorial, and I got the "You are defeated" message after training my 5th grunt. I don't know if it's just a timing coincidence on getting the bug you guys mentioned, or if it's a different problem. But I failed out of the second mission upon completing a fairly mundane objective.
Exact same thing happened to be. 5th grunt, kicked to defeat screen.
I think custom maps are super important, there's no point in rereleasing WC3 without that. But it definitely seems like they lost dev resources on this project or something and just had to crawl past the finish line. This is a really fucked up release and I'm surprised that even today's Blizzard allowed that to happen. If they hadn't announced the thing publicly already I bet they would have cancelled it.
problems with the multiplayer system would be welcome
there is no multiplayer system right now except that technically you can play against a random person online, and have your stats vented into outer space because as far as we can tell there is absolutely no record keeping at all right now
Reforged arguably makes the game worse in many ways, and in its place, you only get some good-but-not-great new graphics
I am going to backseat a little bit out of frustration because I had such high hopes for this game... my understanding is that a major part of this project was supporting backward compatibility with custom maps. In doing so, they got saddled with having to do updated graphics on literally THOUSANDS of models which actually are not used in the campaigns or competitive online at all... and bugfixing the scripting engine on hundreds of old custom maps... vastly increasing the scope of the project for..... people playing tower defense still? in 2020?
i would have much preferred they just left custom alone entirely and made the ladder work... or just have custom maps still run the old EXE... or ask people to port their customs forward into the new engine.
Custom games are literally the only reason I planned on picking this up. Wintermaul, footman frenzy, ENFO's etc were all I ever played back in the day.
I think you'd be knee-capping the game by cutting out custom game support. I have no idea how the numbers compare but I expect a sizeable portion of players play very little standard multiplayer.
While I do think support for the custom scene was necessary (it's much of what makes War3 such an important and influential title) I don't think that trying to release with fully fleshed out and remastered models for every weird, otherwise-unused art asset right out the gate was necessary or even a good idea. That's exactly the sort of thing that could be updated and worked on through successive patch releases.
Compatibility for custom games on the programming side of things was always going to be something they'd need to work on post-release just due to unforseen issues, and I'm sure they were aware of that while making the game. If not, they sure should have been, since SC:R had similar issues. In fact, with that release, the Classics team was upfront with the fact that some fan-favorite custom games weren't going to work at first due to peculiarities in their scripting, which was then worked out slowly through patches.
While I do think support for the custom scene was necessary (it's much of what makes War3 such an important and influential title) I don't think that trying to release with fully fleshed out and remastered models for every weird, otherwise-unused art asset right out the gate was necessary or even a good idea. That's exactly the sort of thing that could be updated and worked on through successive patch releases.
Compatibility for custom games on the programming side of things was always going to be something they'd need to work on post-release just due to unforseen issues, and I'm sure they were aware of that while making the game. If not, they sure should have been, since SC:R had similar issues. In fact, with that release, the Classics team was upfront with the fact that some fan-favorite custom games weren't going to work at first due to peculiarities in their scripting, which was then worked out slowly through patches.
The custom maps in Starcraft: Remastered that had issues I think were mainly ones that used a buffer overflow exploit to do all sorts of stuff you couldn't do in the standard editor.
I'm glad I wasn't put off by all the negativity surrounding the release. I spent the past few hours playing custom games and it's been great! Heaps of people playing. No problems with multiplayer so far. Scratches exactly the nostalgia itch I was hoping for.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
I'm glad I wasn't put off by all the negativity surrounding the release. I spent the past few hours playing custom games and it's been great! Heaps of people playing. No problems with multiplayer so far. Scratches exactly the nostalgia itch I was hoping for.
I'm glad I wasn't put off by all the negativity surrounding the release. I spent the past few hours playing custom games and it's been great! Heaps of people playing. No problems with multiplayer so far. Scratches exactly the nostalgia itch I was hoping for.
Glad to hear that someone is having fun at least.
I imagine it's a combination of playing at non-peak times and not attempting to play standard multiplayer. From what I saw last night, custom games didn't have any networky problems.
I even got the full Footman Frenzy experience, in the form of my framerate dropping to single digits as the map became overrun with mans. Just like old times! Apparently I need to upgrade my PC to the latest and greatest circa 2002.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
I'm glad I wasn't put off by all the negativity surrounding the release. I spent the past few hours playing custom games and it's been great! Heaps of people playing. No problems with multiplayer so far. Scratches exactly the nostalgia itch I was hoping for.
Glad to hear that someone is having fun at least.
I imagine it's a combination of playing at non-peak times and not attempting to play standard multiplayer. From what I saw last night, custom games didn't have any networky problems.
I even got the full Footman Frenzy experience, in the form of my framerate dropping to single digits as the map became overrun with mans. Just like old times! Apparently I need to upgrade my PC to the latest and greatest circa 2002.
Fucking Footies man. I would replay that in a heartbeat.
Due to real life stuff I haven't been able to play much. A whopping one game on release night and a couple since then. All I'm seeing left and right, basically everywhere is how awful it is. To be honest if the integration with the modern battle.net client works and it has good matchmaking I don't care. Of course game breaking bugs aside.
That being said I know I'm not the entirety of the target audience so if I can't get opponents because people are super pissed at the game then it's clearly a problem.
Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
One of my greatest disappointments with the models
is that Grom no longer has 5 o clock shadow
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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mastertheheroProfessional Video Editor & Book AuthorRegistered Userregular
Update:
Was playing Human campaign, got to mission... 5 I believe? "Defeated" Can't play it.
They said in the trailer there would be more "cinematic" cutscenes. Close ups, medium shots, shots that show the facial expressions of the revamped models.
None whatsoever. Still the same cutscenes from the original.
one of the guys from back2warcraft which is a tournament runner for WC3, and one of the louder community voices, apparently got a whisper from Blizzard that matchmaking is in fact active and working in WC3R, you just can't really see it
so... that is at least nice... hopefully we see a major patch next week... if this games goes a whole month without any online upgrades.. woof
Was playing Human campaign, got to mission... 5 I believe? "Defeated" Can't play it.
They said in the trailer there would be more "cinematic" cutscenes. Close ups, medium shots, shots that show the facial expressions of the revamped models.
None whatsoever. Still the same cutscenes from the original.
I'm on like mission 3 or 4 of the Undead campaign and I can't recall anything new as of yet either.
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fRAWRstThe Seas CallThe Mad AnswerRegistered Userregular
Was playing Human campaign, got to mission... 5 I believe? "Defeated" Can't play it.
They said in the trailer there would be more "cinematic" cutscenes. Close ups, medium shots, shots that show the facial expressions of the revamped models.
None whatsoever. Still the same cutscenes from the original.
the instant defeat bug is fixable by restarting entire game
If I buy Reforged with the same expectation I had for the Starcraft rerelease does it hold up? I actually don't care about them redoing the cutscenes, I think I just want to play Warcraft 3 again.
Is there a button to switch between the old and new graphics like in SC?
I'm glad I wasn't put off by all the negativity surrounding the release. I spent the past few hours playing custom games and it's been great! Heaps of people playing. No problems with multiplayer so far. Scratches exactly the nostalgia itch I was hoping for.
That is good to hear. Warcraft def had a rich custom community. I am bummed out that Blizzard has become so anti-modder with their EULA. At some point Warcraft mods were a legitimate way to prototype a game, no more with that nonsensical overreach of their rights to everyone's hard work.
If I buy Reforged with the same expectation I had for the Starcraft rerelease does it hold up? I actually don't care about them redoing the cutscenes, I think I just want to play Warcraft 3 again.
Is there a button to switch between the old and new graphics like in SC?
if all you want to play is the campaign and maybe some tower defense, it mostly works, and what doesn't work is fixable with a restart
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ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
edited February 2020
So many bugs... and so many just weird decisions. I mean, look at this paladin model!
(Original on the left, some guy on reddit made a 'fixed' version on the right.)
Or how the Lich King is sitting in a forest:
And while they added both gender versions of heroes, apparently they sometimes swap genders on resurrection, which must be interesting to see.
Apogee on
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
edited February 2020
Patch came out today, but some are having issues downloading it (lol)
Assuming you can actually download it, here’s what’s included in update 1.32.1:
Campaign
Players should no longer be met with a “defeat” screen after loading into a mission.
Audio levels for some dialogue have been adjusted.
The animations, triggers, and cameras for some cutscenes have been tweaked.
Disconnecting or logging out will no longer change the save file folder.
Fixed a number of issues that would block progression or not give credit for completing missions.
Developer’s note: Updating a map for these types of fixes invalidates prior saves. This is similar to how replays from prior game client versions no longer work. Campaign progress will not be lost.
Custom Games
Multiboards should no longer crash custom games.
Joining lobbies for the same map no longer creates duplicate versions of the map.
Developer’s note: This also resolves disconnects from improper map names.
Gameplay
The rendering of Classic mode has been updated.
Resolved an issue with hitching when constructing buildings or training units for the first time.
Fixed Ziggurat upgrade animation in Reforged mode.
Adjusted animations and portraits for multiple units and buildings.
Units completing training while off-screen again have voices.
Starting locations are again obscured by the fog of war.
Interface
Whispers now include the name of the sender.
Locale settings for audio and subtitles can now be adjusted independently in Battle .net prior to launching the game.
Non-Latin glyphs no longer overlap.
A tooltip now displays when hovering over truncated text.
Chat keeps up with the latest messages.
Heroes on the match results screen are now contained by boundaries.
All menus are now distinct between Classic and Reforged graphic settings.
Developer’s note: We’ve implemented a temporary solution to better inform whether you are playing in Reforged or Classic mode, by applying a sepia tone to the background images for Classic.
its not in the patch notes, but they seem to have also fixed the palette swap bug where your opponent could just change colors randomly in front of your eyes
this definitely puts out most of the big fires that should have never existed to begin with
To be honest if the integration with the modern battle.net client works and it has good matchmaking I don't care.
Err
Aren't these things that are having issues now? I'm not actually playing, but my understanding is there's no matchmaking atm
I guess? Like I said outside of the night of release I haven't encountered any issues. Small sample sizes etc I know but I jumped into multiplayer, had no issues and played 10 games. There were weird graphical things on the end screen (hero portraits supposedly were corrected but I haven't verified yet
I've said to a few different people that the graphics are different, not necessarily worse. Some I like some I don't, and outside of a pretty egregious bug (you can supposedly see UD and NE spawns through fog of war) I don't really have complaints. It is annoying that there is notably delayed audio, as in I queue a lich, go do stuff, eventually the lich waypoints to the army and like a solid 30 seconds later I get his voice line.
That isn't to say that people who are complaining are wrong. I never cared about the redone campaign because i knew I wouldn't be playing it, I'm just going to grind ladder and make lots of crypt f(r)iends
All menus are now distinct between Classic and Reforged graphic settings.
Developer’s note: We’ve implemented a temporary solution to better inform whether you are playing in Reforged or Classic mode, by applying a sepia tone to the background images for Classic.
I suppose it was too much to hope that the Classic mode would just... get the original menu back. I hope that's on their roadmap; the new one just isn't the same.
All menus are now distinct between Classic and Reforged graphic settings.
Developer’s note: We’ve implemented a temporary solution to better inform whether you are playing in Reforged or Classic mode, by applying a sepia tone to the background images for Classic.
I suppose it was too much to hope that the Classic mode would just... get the original menu back. I hope that's on their roadmap; the new one just isn't the same.
Honestly I like the new one more, but it would clearly be better if there was the option
Aside from all that stuff in their "apology" about how it's our fault for not having the experience that we wanted, my biggest takeaway from the apology is simply that the game wasn't ready for launch.
All that stuff about "standing up" online features... those features should have been in at launch. There's no excuse for shipping an incomplete product and then patching in missing features 3-6 months later. Especially not when they're selling the game as a complete product with a very industry standard pricetag for a remaster. Also especially since nowhere visible to the purchaser does it say anything about "key multiplayer features to be patched in later."
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
So looking it up on the wiki, it says Magtheridon was part of the Legion, but AFAICT in WC3 there's no indication he's anything more than a powerful Pit Fiend who moved in and started conquering, the gates he has are even described as 'luring in hapless demons'
Is there a bit I'm not remembering where they say he's part of the Legion, or was that a retcon?
I also wish they hadn't made the Draenei like like the WoW Broken, but I knew that was inevitable. Honestly the appearance change itself doesn't bother me that much, since the story wasn't changed regardless.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
I’m playing classic WC3 again, so I’ll have to see the full detail on it.
If nothing else, Magtheridon was confirmed as Legion in the novels (Rise of the Horde IIRC).
EDIT: confused with Manneroth, sorry!
In general though, I don’t think there’s too many non-aligned Demons, until Illidan and his faction Demon was pretty much synonymous with being in the Legion.
Wow yeah. The classic one is just so much more vibrant and detailed looking. How could an HD remaster make textures and environments look significantly less detailed and stylized?
I feel like with the classic style strategy game overhead perspective new fangled hd graphics and 3d effects actually make it harder to make a game that doesn’t look like mush. Pretty mush, but mash nonetheless. Most of the current graphics school of thought is based on first person or third person games where most things on the screen are very zoomed in or have a lot of movement. When you have an overhead perspective things are small and don’t move as much, and an effort has to be taken to make things stand out and make the eye read important things like units and terrain as being distinct.
For an example, look at age of wonders 3, where buildings and units look really great at full zoom in, but you zoom out to normal playing levels and you can’t tell what the hell a farm or city is actually supposed to be. Then planetfall they added a lot of really subtle but effective things to make things stand out, like outlines, shading, exaggerated color contrasts, etc. In a first person game these things look out of place, but from an overhead birds eye view they are necessary.
In that first wc3 screenshot you have an older tech but a better design, the trees are bold, they stand out, you can tell what they are and where the delineations between tree and grass are really well. The new hd trees and grass probably look great zoomed way in, but don’t have any of that, so at normal playing distance they just all blend in to a green mush.
i know im on the outside on this but I generally like the new graphics. right now the whole is less than the sum of its parts because there's a glut of "little things" that add up to make the new graphics just not work
Posts
So its pretty much every online release ever. And the game is beautiful in 4k.
it was definitely pretty bad at one point in the beta
the main issue in my book is some of the units its very difficult to tell team color, and in the case of the undead, it can be hard to tell units from one another, as there are several "small ghoul/skeleton" options
And they're not really impressive still. I wasn't expecting Halo Wars 2 or something, but after this long delay, and the success (I thought) of the 2D Starcraft remaster...hmm.
SC:R was also, honestly, a much simpler project with its sights aimed lower. It just wanted to modernize StarCraft, and reproduce its art accurately and in HD. Obviously that's no small feat, and the extent to which they succeeded at that is amazing, but I feel like it kind of got to Blizzard's ego and they bit off way more than they could chew with a smallish Classics team, a more technically complicated game, with much more art, and higher ambitions for a remaster.
there is no multiplayer system right now except that technically you can play against a random person online, and have your stats vented into outer space because as far as we can tell there is absolutely no record keeping at all right now
Reforged arguably makes the game worse in many ways, and in its place, you only get some good-but-not-great new graphics
I am going to backseat a little bit out of frustration because I had such high hopes for this game... my understanding is that a major part of this project was supporting backward compatibility with custom maps. In doing so, they got saddled with having to do updated graphics on literally THOUSANDS of models which actually are not used in the campaigns or competitive online at all... and bugfixing the scripting engine on hundreds of old custom maps... vastly increasing the scope of the project for..... people playing tower defense still? in 2020?
i would have much preferred they just left custom alone entirely and made the ladder work... or just have custom maps still run the old EXE... or ask people to port their customs forward into the new engine.
Exact same thing happened to be. 5th grunt, kicked to defeat screen.
Custom games are literally the only reason I planned on picking this up. Wintermaul, footman frenzy, ENFO's etc were all I ever played back in the day.
I think you'd be knee-capping the game by cutting out custom game support. I have no idea how the numbers compare but I expect a sizeable portion of players play very little standard multiplayer.
Compatibility for custom games on the programming side of things was always going to be something they'd need to work on post-release just due to unforseen issues, and I'm sure they were aware of that while making the game. If not, they sure should have been, since SC:R had similar issues. In fact, with that release, the Classics team was upfront with the fact that some fan-favorite custom games weren't going to work at first due to peculiarities in their scripting, which was then worked out slowly through patches.
The custom maps in Starcraft: Remastered that had issues I think were mainly ones that used a buffer overflow exploit to do all sorts of stuff you couldn't do in the standard editor.
Glad to hear that someone is having fun at least.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
pretty sure the answer is yes
I imagine it's a combination of playing at non-peak times and not attempting to play standard multiplayer. From what I saw last night, custom games didn't have any networky problems.
I even got the full Footman Frenzy experience, in the form of my framerate dropping to single digits as the map became overrun with mans. Just like old times! Apparently I need to upgrade my PC to the latest and greatest circa 2002.
Fucking Footies man. I would replay that in a heartbeat.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
That being said I know I'm not the entirety of the target audience so if I can't get opponents because people are super pissed at the game then it's clearly a problem.
I dunno. I'm still going to play a lot. Planning to stream it tonight and rock some undead.
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Err
Aren't these things that are having issues now? I'm not actually playing, but my understanding is there's no matchmaking atm
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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is that Grom no longer has 5 o clock shadow
Was playing Human campaign, got to mission... 5 I believe? "Defeated" Can't play it.
They said in the trailer there would be more "cinematic" cutscenes. Close ups, medium shots, shots that show the facial expressions of the revamped models.
None whatsoever. Still the same cutscenes from the original.
so... that is at least nice... hopefully we see a major patch next week... if this games goes a whole month without any online upgrades.. woof
I'm on like mission 3 or 4 of the Undead campaign and I can't recall anything new as of yet either.
the instant defeat bug is fixable by restarting entire game
pretty awful bug tbh
Is there a button to switch between the old and new graphics like in SC?
That is good to hear. Warcraft def had a rich custom community. I am bummed out that Blizzard has become so anti-modder with their EULA. At some point Warcraft mods were a legitimate way to prototype a game, no more with that nonsensical overreach of their rights to everyone's hard work.
if all you want to play is the campaign and maybe some tower defense, it mostly works, and what doesn't work is fixable with a restart
(Original on the left, some guy on reddit made a 'fixed' version on the right.)
Or how the Lich King is sitting in a forest:
And while they added both gender versions of heroes, apparently they sometimes swap genders on resurrection, which must be interesting to see.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah
this definitely puts out most of the big fires that should have never existed to begin with
I guess? Like I said outside of the night of release I haven't encountered any issues. Small sample sizes etc I know but I jumped into multiplayer, had no issues and played 10 games. There were weird graphical things on the end screen (hero portraits supposedly were corrected but I haven't verified yet
I've said to a few different people that the graphics are different, not necessarily worse. Some I like some I don't, and outside of a pretty egregious bug (you can supposedly see UD and NE spawns through fog of war) I don't really have complaints. It is annoying that there is notably delayed audio, as in I queue a lich, go do stuff, eventually the lich waypoints to the army and like a solid 30 seconds later I get his voice line.
That isn't to say that people who are complaining are wrong. I never cared about the redone campaign because i knew I wouldn't be playing it, I'm just going to grind ladder and make lots of crypt f(r)iends
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I suppose it was too much to hope that the Classic mode would just... get the original menu back. I hope that's on their roadmap; the new one just isn't the same.
Honestly I like the new one more, but it would clearly be better if there was the option
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
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All that stuff about "standing up" online features... those features should have been in at launch. There's no excuse for shipping an incomplete product and then patching in missing features 3-6 months later. Especially not when they're selling the game as a complete product with a very industry standard pricetag for a remaster. Also especially since nowhere visible to the purchaser does it say anything about "key multiplayer features to be patched in later."
Is there a bit I'm not remembering where they say he's part of the Legion, or was that a retcon?
I also wish they hadn't made the Draenei like like the WoW Broken, but I knew that was inevitable. Honestly the appearance change itself doesn't bother me that much, since the story wasn't changed regardless.
If nothing else, Magtheridon was confirmed as Legion in the novels (Rise of the Horde IIRC).
EDIT: confused with Manneroth, sorry!
In general though, I don’t think there’s too many non-aligned Demons, until Illidan and his faction Demon was pretty much synonymous with being in the Legion.
I feel like with the classic style strategy game overhead perspective new fangled hd graphics and 3d effects actually make it harder to make a game that doesn’t look like mush. Pretty mush, but mash nonetheless. Most of the current graphics school of thought is based on first person or third person games where most things on the screen are very zoomed in or have a lot of movement. When you have an overhead perspective things are small and don’t move as much, and an effort has to be taken to make things stand out and make the eye read important things like units and terrain as being distinct.
For an example, look at age of wonders 3, where buildings and units look really great at full zoom in, but you zoom out to normal playing levels and you can’t tell what the hell a farm or city is actually supposed to be. Then planetfall they added a lot of really subtle but effective things to make things stand out, like outlines, shading, exaggerated color contrasts, etc. In a first person game these things look out of place, but from an overhead birds eye view they are necessary.
In that first wc3 screenshot you have an older tech but a better design, the trees are bold, they stand out, you can tell what they are and where the delineations between tree and grass are really well. The new hd trees and grass probably look great zoomed way in, but don’t have any of that, so at normal playing distance they just all blend in to a green mush.
Probably worried about class action suit bad publicity I guess