Thinking about it, one of the things I liked a lot about Skyward Sword was that all the items felt like they stayed useful throughout the game. Especially coming off Twilight Princess. The Spinner, Ball n' Chain, and Dominion Rod were cool, but so infrequently used outside of their dungeons that I feel like with only a little tweaking you could have made it so the four mirror shard dungeons were doable in any order.
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GreasyKidsStuffMOMMM!ROAST BEEF WANTS TO KISS GIRLS ON THE TITTIES!Registered Userregular
edited November 2018
If I have one nitpick about the end of Breath of the Wild, its that the credits are nothing more than a slideshow that they play the E3 trailer music over. All the other 3D Zeldas have stunning credit sequences that take you through the world you just spent however much time exploring, and the music usually hits this note of triumph mixed with a sort of sadness. I don't know how to describe it.
This thought occurred to me as I listened to the Zelda Reorchestrated version of the Twilight Princess credits, which are awesome: https://youtu.be/z0LMm10-J-k
Breath of the Wild's reprise of the Champion themes is pretty good, especially prefaced by the Main Theme as it is! Like... in a vacuum
But yeah the series has a storied history of really great credits themes, with carefully crafted medleys being the bare minimum. Coming off of Link to the Past or Skyward Sword it's hard not to find the Breath of the Wild's treatment of its staff roll lacking, which jumps out because the rest of the soundtrack is so appropriate to every situation it plays in
Skyward Sword may have the best Zelda soundtrack, so I'm not sure it's super fair to compare Breath of the Wild to it. (And this coming from some one who poops on Breath of the Wild's soundtrack all the time.)
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JimothyNot in front of the foxhe's with the owlRegistered Userregular
Skyward probably is the best soundtrack overall, but I’m so in love with Wind Waker’s credits theme
Wind Waker I think has the most impressive soundtrack in that I feel like it draws the least from established overarching Zelda motifs yet manages to create a soundscape just as memorable and resonant as any Zelda game while being extremely different.
i still wish Breath of the Wild had a post game where Zelda is hanging out in Kakariko and maybe had some quests for you to do to help start rebuilding hyrule
god i would've liked that framing for the DLC so much more
I'm fundamentally against the idea of post-games in Zelda in general, as I think they're a kind of engagement poison
It would be fun if there was an expansion or something set after the events of the game though, just to see what the world's like (and to deal with the fortune teller). But that expansion better have credits and no ability to save after them credits!
Wyborn on
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GreasyKidsStuffMOMMM!ROAST BEEF WANTS TO KISS GIRLS ON THE TITTIES!Registered Userregular
I just remembered Wind Waker also didn't have much in terms of visuals for its staff roll. Just bubbles with character's heads floating by.
Wind Waker can be forgiven that, I think, partially because it was character-focused but primarily because its rendition of the main theme in its staff roll was heart-wrenching in the extreme.
I'm fundamentally against the idea of post-games in Zelda in general, as I think they're a kind of engagement poison
It would be fun if there was an expansion or something set after the events of the game though, just to see what the world's like (and to deal with the fortune teller). But that expansion better have credits and no ability to save after them credits!
I'm pretty sure that the fortune teller is just a red herring. IIRC there was even something about how the original Japanese could be read as being multiple fortune-tellers, but I can't seem to google up a quote on that so maybe I just made that up.
I'm fundamentally against the idea of post-games in Zelda in general, as I think they're a kind of engagement poison
It would be fun if there was an expansion or something set after the events of the game though, just to see what the world's like (and to deal with the fortune teller). But that expansion better have credits and no ability to save after them credits!
I loved that the Oracle games had peaceful world states post-game and was disappointed that there was no post-Ganon state in a linked game.
It basically just meant that the Din and Nayru were hanging out in town and that it was spring everywhere in Seasons, but I still thought it was cool.
If the fortune teller is a red herring, they're a very carefully hidden one; you have to do a lot of reading into nearly incidental dialogue to even intuit that they did anything bad at all. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that it was meant to refer to multiple fortune tellers, but given how well they echo the archetype of Agahnim and the wizard aiding the Prince in the backstory of Adventure of Link.... it just would have made a lot of sense for them to be an emissary (or even embodiment) of Ganon. Who also murdered the queen.
I... do like peaceful world states in the style of Dragon Quest or EarthBound. But part of what makes them work is that they're essentially just part of the ending. You don't do quests, or even have the option to fight, during that stuff.
when you beat a linked game in Oracle of X, you get a secret that lets you replay the game but in its unlinked state (and you get to carry over rings, so it's kind of a New Game +?)
in other words, you can do an unbroken chain of game -> linked game -> New Game + -> linked game, with stuff carrying over all the way
"Reports keep arriving regarding the excavation of relics. The fortune teller's predictions seem to be coming true. Calamity Ganon was not a figure of fable, or even of legend. He actually existed in our great land of Hyrule. We must investigate all the relics, learn as much as we can. But understanding the Divine Beasts alone will take time... Zelda's eyes lit up like a wildfire when I told her about the relics... I must admit, she has a knack for research."
It's presumably the ones who made the prophecy that Rhoam references at the end of the Plateau:
Stories of Ganon were passed from generation to generation in the form of legends and fairy tales.
But there was also... a prophecy.
"The signs of a resurrection of Calamity Ganon are clear.
And the power to oppose it lies dormant beneath the ground."
We decided to heed the prophecy and began excavating large areas of land.
It wasn't long before we discovered several ancient relics made by the hands of our distant ancestors.
These relics, the Divine Beasts, were giant machines piloted by warriors.
etc. etc., it's a whole cutscene that I can't be assed to transcript.
I don't think that they're intentionally a red herring, I think it's just that they're probably just a dead end.
More specifically, because of this (maybe inaccurate?) translation of the Japanese:
厄災ガノンの正体……
The true identity of Calamity Ganon...
それは太古の昔 この国に生まれた魔王が
A demon king born in this country a long, long time ago
怨念と化して復活した姿なのだ
Became malice and revived as that thing
ガノンは伝説や伽話（とぎばなし）に現れる者として語り継がれてきた
Ganon has been handed down as a character appearing in legends and fairy tales
だがある時 王国の占い師が ひとつの予言を告げたのだ
But, one day, one of the kingdom’s seers announced a prophechy
『大地に厄災ガノンの復活の兆（きざ）しあり……
“There are signs of Calamity Ganon’s ressurection in the lands...
だが ガノンに抗する力もまた 大地に眠る……』
...But the power to stand up to Ganon also slumbers in the lands…”
This presents the fortune-teller (both that and "seer" work as translations for 占い師 ) as just one of a group. That's not particularly similar to the Agahnim situation.
Interestingly, and I know that Wyborn at least doesn't count this as canon, Creating a Champion had this page preview at GameSpot that makes the fortune-teller out to be an unknown savior of Hyrule. I'm not sure that I subscribe to that theory, but it's certainly one way to look at things - I'm not sure if Calamity Ganon could have been defeated without all that ancient Shiekah tech, after all.
The Oracle games are the least canon because both paths seem to happen canonically
Like some kind of quantum canonicity superposition?
Is there anything else that references the Oracle games, besides the oracles showing up in Minish Cap?
Nintendo doesn't usually reference the Capcom games, no, except if you count Vaati being around
Though if you take the Oracle games as being canon they actually kind of preclude the Links from LttP and LA being the same person, which is interesting
100 years ago a fortune teller showed up telling the royal family to dig up the Divine Beasts and the Guardians to fight Ganon, which, turns out, is the thing that allowed Ganon to instantly destroy Hyrule once it was released; if they hadn't been dug up, it wouldn't have been able to burn down the nation nearly as fast
That ties into how the prophecy runs counter to the "prophecy of doom" mentioned by the monks at the bottom of the Tests of Strength shrines; the reading I got from that was that the ancient Sheikah knew this was going to happen, and that's why they buried the Divine Beasts; so that when Ganon tried to take control of them, his weapons would still be buried and he would be left disarmed. The fortune teller, in telling the royal family to dig up those ancient artifacts, directly brings about the destruction of Hyrule.
Also the fortune teller shows up at just about the same time that Zelda's mother dies, breaking the line of succession and learning that could have handled Ganon when he reappeared.
So the fortune teller both arms Ganon and disarms Hyrule, which leads to the catastrophe of a century ago. It's definitely a dead end--there's not going to be anything else to do with them--but it's interesting in how they echo the motif of the mysterious sorcerer advising the royal family and bringing ruin to the kingdom, which stretches back to Zelda II and Link to the Past.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The Oracle games are the least canon because both paths seem to happen canonically
Like some kind of quantum canonicity superposition?
Is there anything else that references the Oracle games, besides the oracles showing up in Minish Cap?
Nintendo doesn't usually reference the Capcom games, no, except if you count Vaati being around
Though if you take the Oracle games as being canon they actually kind of preclude the Links from LttP and LA being the same person, which is interesting
LA Link is pretty explicitly the LttP Link.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
Where was there anything about Zeldas mom dying in the game
Where was there anything about Zeldas mom dying in the game
Zelda's diary and the King's diary both mention her—the king writes specifically of her passing when it happens, and Zelda laments that she's not there to be her teacher.
I think. Zelda may not mention her mother directly, though I think she does. The King does, 100%.
Where was there anything about Zeldas mom dying in the game
the king's diary maybe? it's mentioned that part of the reason zelda has such a hard time with her powers is that her mother died before she could teach her how to use them
Where was there anything about Zeldas mom dying in the game
Zelda's diary and the King's diary both mention her—the king writes specifically of her passing when it happens, and Zelda laments that she's not there to be her teacher.
I think. Zelda may not mention her mother directly, though I think she does. The King does, 100%.
Ah okay, I didn't remember her mattering at all but thats neat
Where was there anything about Zeldas mom dying in the game
Zelda's diary and the King's diary both mention her—the king writes specifically of her passing when it happens, and Zelda laments that she's not there to be her teacher.
I think. Zelda may not mention her mother directly, though I think she does. The King does, 100%.
Ah okay, I didn't remember her mattering at all but thats neat
It's a... tidy way to write around the series' seeming inability to have queens or mother figures present, you could say
Wyborn on
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JimothyNot in front of the foxhe's with the owlRegistered Userregular
The Oracle games are the least canon because both paths seem to happen canonically
Like some kind of quantum canonicity superposition?
Is there anything else that references the Oracle games, besides the oracles showing up in Minish Cap?
Nintendo doesn't usually reference the Capcom games, no, except if you count Vaati being around
Though if you take the Oracle games as being canon they actually kind of preclude the Links from LttP and LA being the same person, which is interesting
LA Link is pretty explicitly the LttP Link.
Yeah, LttP, LA, and Oracles can’t all be the same Link, but LttP and LA Link are
The ending of Oracles is peculiar, but I don’t think a raft is enough to sever the LttP/LA connection
What’s really interesting is that a lot of the folks who worked on the Capcom Zeldas wound up on the Nintendo Zelda team, but aside from FSA, there aren’t really any references to them in the EPD Zeldas
I’m really interested in the development of Oracles, because it seems like it wants to live in the world of the N64 Zeldas but is definitely a new Link/Zelda and an incompatible status quo. It almost feels like Capcom went off and did their own thing but we know that Aonouma was still involved, so
A pattern pointed out by a mudora listener is that ganon tends to strike when there is no queen, that is to say, when the kingdom is at its weakest because it is not protected by the full power of the matrilineal bloodline
The alttp/la connection is not actually all that strong, but the ending of oracles clearly has link leaving in the same boat he crashes in la
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JimothyNot in front of the foxhe's with the owlRegistered Userregular
I dunno, I’m inclined to say that LA was at the time of its development linked to LttP and “another game has Link on a boat” isn’t enough to disqualify that
It’s also stronger thematically. Within the text of LA, Marin is clearly meant to be dream Zelda. Linking LA to Oracles makes her dream Malon or at best a Zelda/Malon composite. And there’s a boss that is dream Agahnim. You have to ignore the context that it was written in to divorce it from LttP
Anyway, what I don’t understand is why no one places Oracles after the NES games. Seasons was originally a Zelda 1 remake, Hyrule has the completed Triforce, and it finally closes the Zelda 2 plot thread of Ganon’s minions trying to resurrect him
Timeline placement often and completely ignores the context in which earlier games were written; it's just how one does
Marin's still Zelda, or an echo of her; you just have to choose whether you read the Oracles/LA connection or the LttP/LA connection as being primary, and the ending of the Oracles games is really, really, really explicit in that regard. Does it create problems? Hell yeah it does. But that's down to the content of the Oracle games making it so that those games aren't canonically congruent with a linked version of LttP and LA
It's true that the Nightmare takes on the form of Agahnim. But it also takes on the form of Death Eye, who bears a strong resemblance to Vaati; the conclusion we ended up coming to, to make the Oracle games fit, is that these are the Nightmares of the Wind Fish, rather than of Link. The Wind Fish, it seems, is scared of the Wind Mage
Timeline placement often and completely ignores the context in which earlier games were written; it's just how one does
Marin's still Zelda, or an echo of her; you just have to choose whether you read the Oracles/LA connection or the LttP/LA connection as being primary, and the ending of the Oracles games is really, really, really explicit in that regard. Does it create problems? Hell yeah it does. But that's down to the content of the Oracle games making it so that those games aren't canonically congruent with a linked version of LttP and LA
It's true that the Nightmare takes on the form of Agahnim. But it also takes on the form of Death Eye, who bears a strong resemblance to Vaati; the conclusion we ended up coming to, to make the Oracle games fit, is that these are the Nightmares of the Wind Fish, rather than of Link. The Wind Fish, it seems, is scared of the Wind Mage
Yeah but the Nightmares explicitly don't show up until Link appears in LA. I know correlation isn't causation but it makes way more sense to me that Link, burdened by the weight of his tribulations, infects the Wind Fish's dream.
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This thought occurred to me as I listened to the Zelda Reorchestrated version of the Twilight Princess credits, which are awesome:
edit: Like, c'mon. Skyward Sword?
They all have this very unique quality of being like, "yeah, you did it. But also, aren't you kinda sad it's over?" I dunno.
But yeah the series has a storied history of really great credits themes, with carefully crafted medleys being the bare minimum. Coming off of Link to the Past or Skyward Sword it's hard not to find the Breath of the Wild's treatment of its staff roll lacking, which jumps out because the rest of the soundtrack is so appropriate to every situation it plays in
god i would've liked that framing for the DLC so much more
http://www.audioentropy.com/
It would be fun if there was an expansion or something set after the events of the game though, just to see what the world's like (and to deal with the fortune teller). But that expansion better have credits and no ability to save after them credits!
I'm pretty sure that the fortune teller is just a red herring. IIRC there was even something about how the original Japanese could be read as being multiple fortune-tellers, but I can't seem to google up a quote on that so maybe I just made that up.
I loved that the Oracle games had peaceful world states post-game and was disappointed that there was no post-Ganon state in a linked game.
It basically just meant that the Din and Nayru were hanging out in town and that it was spring everywhere in Seasons, but I still thought it was cool.
I... do like peaceful world states in the style of Dragon Quest or EarthBound. But part of what makes them work is that they're essentially just part of the ending. You don't do quests, or even have the option to fight, during that stuff.
aren't they kind of a time loop of, for example, Ages -> Seasons Linked Game -> Seasons Hero's Game -> Ages Linked Game?
shit's whack
when you beat a linked game in Oracle of X, you get a secret that lets you replay the game but in its unlinked state (and you get to carry over rings, so it's kind of a New Game +?)
in other words, you can do an unbroken chain of game -> linked game -> New Game + -> linked game, with stuff carrying over all the way
this probably isn't worth thinking about, though
Ask Wyborn about the implications of fighting Demise in the Lightning Round.
But it's seasons then ages
Like some kind of quantum canonicity superposition?
Is there anything else that references the Oracle games, besides the oracles showing up in Minish Cap?
It's in King Rhoam's Journal. It's presumably the ones who made the prophecy that Rhoam references at the end of the Plateau: etc. etc., it's a whole cutscene that I can't be assed to transcript.
I don't think that they're intentionally a red herring, I think it's just that they're probably just a dead end.
More specifically, because of this (maybe inaccurate?) translation of the Japanese: This presents the fortune-teller (both that and "seer" work as translations for 占い師 ) as just one of a group. That's not particularly similar to the Agahnim situation.
Interestingly, and I know that Wyborn at least doesn't count this as canon, Creating a Champion had this page preview at GameSpot that makes the fortune-teller out to be an unknown savior of Hyrule. I'm not sure that I subscribe to that theory, but it's certainly one way to look at things - I'm not sure if Calamity Ganon could have been defeated without all that ancient Shiekah tech, after all.
pretty sure no answers exist except the ones you make up so i guess just go with what ever sounds cool to you
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Nintendo doesn't usually reference the Capcom games, no, except if you count Vaati being around
Though if you take the Oracle games as being canon they actually kind of preclude the Links from LttP and LA being the same person, which is interesting
100 years ago a fortune teller showed up telling the royal family to dig up the Divine Beasts and the Guardians to fight Ganon, which, turns out, is the thing that allowed Ganon to instantly destroy Hyrule once it was released; if they hadn't been dug up, it wouldn't have been able to burn down the nation nearly as fast
That ties into how the prophecy runs counter to the "prophecy of doom" mentioned by the monks at the bottom of the Tests of Strength shrines; the reading I got from that was that the ancient Sheikah knew this was going to happen, and that's why they buried the Divine Beasts; so that when Ganon tried to take control of them, his weapons would still be buried and he would be left disarmed. The fortune teller, in telling the royal family to dig up those ancient artifacts, directly brings about the destruction of Hyrule.
Also the fortune teller shows up at just about the same time that Zelda's mother dies, breaking the line of succession and learning that could have handled Ganon when he reappeared.
So the fortune teller both arms Ganon and disarms Hyrule, which leads to the catastrophe of a century ago. It's definitely a dead end--there's not going to be anything else to do with them--but it's interesting in how they echo the motif of the mysterious sorcerer advising the royal family and bringing ruin to the kingdom, which stretches back to Zelda II and Link to the Past.
LA Link is pretty explicitly the LttP Link.
Zelda's diary and the King's diary both mention her—the king writes specifically of her passing when it happens, and Zelda laments that she's not there to be her teacher.
I think. Zelda may not mention her mother directly, though I think she does. The King does, 100%.
the king's diary maybe? it's mentioned that part of the reason zelda has such a hard time with her powers is that her mother died before she could teach her how to use them
http://www.audioentropy.com/
It's a... tidy way to write around the series' seeming inability to have queens or mother figures present, you could say
Yeah, LttP, LA, and Oracles can’t all be the same Link, but LttP and LA Link are
The ending of Oracles is peculiar, but I don’t think a raft is enough to sever the LttP/LA connection
What’s really interesting is that a lot of the folks who worked on the Capcom Zeldas wound up on the Nintendo Zelda team, but aside from FSA, there aren’t really any references to them in the EPD Zeldas
I’m really interested in the development of Oracles, because it seems like it wants to live in the world of the N64 Zeldas but is definitely a new Link/Zelda and an incompatible status quo. It almost feels like Capcom went off and did their own thing but we know that Aonouma was still involved, so
It’s also stronger thematically. Within the text of LA, Marin is clearly meant to be dream Zelda. Linking LA to Oracles makes her dream Malon or at best a Zelda/Malon composite. And there’s a boss that is dream Agahnim. You have to ignore the context that it was written in to divorce it from LttP
Anyway, what I don’t understand is why no one places Oracles after the NES games. Seasons was originally a Zelda 1 remake, Hyrule has the completed Triforce, and it finally closes the Zelda 2 plot thread of Ganon’s minions trying to resurrect him
Marin's still Zelda, or an echo of her; you just have to choose whether you read the Oracles/LA connection or the LttP/LA connection as being primary, and the ending of the Oracles games is really, really, really explicit in that regard. Does it create problems? Hell yeah it does. But that's down to the content of the Oracle games making it so that those games aren't canonically congruent with a linked version of LttP and LA
It's true that the Nightmare takes on the form of Agahnim. But it also takes on the form of Death Eye, who bears a strong resemblance to Vaati; the conclusion we ended up coming to, to make the Oracle games fit, is that these are the Nightmares of the Wind Fish, rather than of Link. The Wind Fish, it seems, is scared of the Wind Mage
Yeah but the Nightmares explicitly don't show up until Link appears in LA. I know correlation isn't causation but it makes way more sense to me that Link, burdened by the weight of his tribulations, infects the Wind Fish's dream.