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Posts

  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Rangers exist as a class because of tradition, not because it makes any real sense at this point. Like Paladins, they're definitely so close to the fighter archetype it seems kind of antiquated that they're distinct classes.

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  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    Let's just play a game where you're either a Warrior, Wizard, or Rogue and every level you can pick a feat that fills in the blanks of who you are.

    That probably hasn't been done!

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I actually think the ranger is a common enough archetype in fiction to make sense, it’s fighters that are nondescript weirdos.

    I vote we bench Fighters and bring on Marshal/Warlord/Tacticians, Dervish/Masters/Water Dancers and Knights/Champions/Heralds as the standard.

    Oh sure you can sub-class everything into fighter, but aren’t all adventurers rogues?

    ElvenshaeFuselageRingoMsAnthropyMostlyjoe13
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    It would be cool if they actually thought of "official" multiclass suggestions and had like, Fighte 5/Cleric 5 as a Paladin or a Druid 3/Rogue 6 as a Ranger or whatever.

    Cut down on the "core" classes that don't feel distinct enough and put more thought into how combining bits from each class actually flows together to allow, which would allow for players to have a variety of ways to build their characters while also simplifying the base selections for less-experienced players.

    The 4e Hybrid system is the closest thing to this hypothetical I'm imagining, but even that isn't exactly what I'd want, since it's combining two existing full-on classes.

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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited August 8
    I think it’d all come down to having some elaborate feat system on a giant wheel, with classes being a tree that connects at branches with others, with some magic/feat point system where you can empower abilities to do merged things, like you’d add the fireball spell you know to your cleave feat to make a flaming sword attack and it’d just be too much! Madness I tell you!

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited August 8
    A thing I like about fighters and to a lesser extent rogues (thieves cant is like the major thing that gets in the way) in 5e is that they are such a blank slate you can really project anything on it. Like a no magic bard? Entertainer background and rogue levels won't do you too wrong maybe some adjustment to thieves cant and just kinda accepting the combat prowess, swashbuckler in particular makes a kind of sense. Like that's probably the build I'd go with if I was doing a thom merrilin build. Wanna make a no magic ranger? Take your pick, scout rogue, or battlemaster fighter with the Outlander background, or multiclassing these 2.

    Sleep on
  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    I think it’d all come down to having some elaborate feat system on a giant wheel, with classes being a tree that connects at branches with others, with some magic/feat point system where you can empower abilities to do merged things, like you’d add the fireball spell you know to your cleave feat to make a flaming sword attack and it’d just be too much! Madness I tell you!
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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    That’s like... mathematical Cthulhu.

    FuselagePolaritieMostlyjoe13discrider
  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    The main difference between 3e and 4e is that 4e removed spells and attack actions to replace them with powers, and powers mostly resembled spells, so 'everyone is a wizard'. I don't think P2e has anything similar to powers outside of a handful of class abilities (ranger's Hunt, paladins Retributive Strike), but that's more due to formatting than anything else; you're not rotating powers out every other level. They did steal 4e's higher starting health, which means you don't have to start campaigns off at level 2/3 in order to avoid getting one-shot by charging falchions.

    If you're familiar with P1e, every class is now like the Rogue, getting talents every other level. You get a preset class 'feature' every odd level, and then you get a choice of class talents (called feats now) every even level, and you also get a skill feat. Every other odd level (3, 7, 11, 15, 19) you get an 'general' feat from a shared list. The BIG difference between editions is that they removed multiclassing in favor of 4e's multiclassing feats; I imagine this to be a HUGE deal breaker for a lot of players. Prestige classes work the same way.

    Random other notes:

    Races are now simplified, only giving few perks at level 1, but you get to pick from 'ancestry feats' as you level up to fill out the list.
    Rangers and Paladins are no longer spell casters.
    Animal Companions are now super streamlined (thank fuck)
    Spell lists are now Divine, Primal, and Arcane. Gone are the days of Witch Spell List, Cleric Spell List, Inquisitor Spell List
    You can only multiclass into Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric.
    Surprise rounds are gone.
    No more rolled hitpoints.
    Beating a DC by ten is now a critical hit, meaning that stacking modifiers is huge now.
    Dudes get tons of hitpoints now. A level 5 dwarf barb gets between 72 and 92hp.
    You add your 'Proficiency Modifier' to everything now, aside from damage rolls. It's equal to your level-2, offset by being 'trained' (level+0), expert (level+1), master (level+2), or legendary (level+3).
    The DC for an average skill check at level 13 is now 32.
    Magic items seem pretty neat.
    Traps are now 'Hazards' and are super fucking sweet and I'm stealing their layout for all future games
    Monster layouts are pretty nice (succinct), but they're still listing spells rather than just giving me powers. Am I the strange one here? Does everyone else just fucking love cross-referencing monster spells as a DM?
    Lots of number inflation. Average AC for level 13 is in the 30s.
    The free 100 page adventure looks pretty nice.

    Thoughts overall: Excited! I completely bounced off of Starfinder and haven't looked back. I'm kinda bummed on the lack of character options (only four multiclass feats and two prestige classes, one being female only), but the magic items seem promising. Can't wait to pore through it.

    FuselageElvenshaeMostlyjoe13
  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    The previous discussion on classes reminded me of Rule of Cool's Legend RPG. I hadn't thought about it in a while, but it has different tracks that operate like class or special race features. 2011-2014 era.

    http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/

    Tox
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    I've ran a couple legend games and they were a lot of fun. I loved the weapon generation rules, as did my players. It was pretty easy to take 4th ed d&d monsters and port them over too. I imagine 5th ed ones wouldn't be too hard either.

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  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    Minor clarification. There are 4 types of spell lists. Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Occult. Occult now covers the nebulous area that Bards, Psionics, most mental powers that feature Divination and such.

    Extra special fun is now Sorcerers bloodline choice allows them to get access to one of the 4 spell lists. Devlish/Angel blood gives Divine, Aberrant gives Occult, Fay gives you Primal. Etc.

    Shield is now a cantrip and casters can use a 'raise shield' action like any melee fighter to ward off attacks. It really changes the close combat dynamic.

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  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    That doesn't sound too bad...

    ElvenshaeMostlyjoe13
  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    I'm really digging how mutli/prestige/archtypes are handled now in Pf2e. Yes, it's a feat tree like 4E, but in some ways it's WAY more generous. One dip into Fighter gives you martial weapon training, armor training all the way to heavy and unlocks later feats that synergize with the first. Such as being able to pick up the AoO one, extra hitpoints based on the number of fighter devotion(multiclass) feats you have, etc. If you keep picking up more of the mutlifeats you more or less gain the core class features of the entire class with a few advanced options that only someone who started out in that class gets. Meaning while this eats up your general feats it doesn't touch on your starting class feats and powers. That's right. You retain your starting class powers and even get the capstone if you go all the way to level 20!

    Oh, little fun tidbit. You can cast in armor, ANY armor, with no penalty. That's right true gishs can and will happen. You can start as a Wizard and Sorcerer or even a Bard, take 1 feat dip into Fighter and turn yourself into a tank mage! The caveat being you most likely won't have the strength/con of a true fighter to hit at the same power or tank the same hits. You'll also won't have some of the more advanced fighter tricks like powering through attacks or sharing the pain in melee combat (you'll have a few, just not their better options.) However since you keep your core class features there are ways to work around this issue. I'm already seeing synergies with casters who can self buff, use dex based weapons, and use spells that heighten (level up) to make up for what they are missing. Just keeping in mind that the action economy will force them to choose when to melee and when to stand there for a full round casting on stuff. But just having the option to walk around in full place casting spells is awesome. Heh...just don't expect to have the ability to carry any more gear. *shrugs*

    Don't get me wrong. The game is still very much in beta and folks are catching weird stuff like Rogues not benefiting from ambush attacks as much. (It's this whole seen/unseen when you attack thing.) It's not THAT big of a deal since they get their sneak attack anytime the foe is 'flat footed' and there is a metric crap ton of ways to put them in that condition now. Flanking, tanglefoot spell (yes spell), bard demoralization, fighter attacks that stagger, ranger marking, etc. Notice all the fun party synergies going here for the Rogue? Hell, the Rogue benefits from the who 'I beat you at Init roll' unless anyone else. Taking a muliclass dip into them gets you that hit first hit hard benefit. I could see a bard/rogue who enters combat, tags a foe HARD and then keeps shouting down/tripping/distracting them every other round to keep dishing the pain. Or a fighter/rogue build who does the same and then starts shield bashing/bullrushing them around the battle field into disadvantaged positions. Or a Ranger/Rogue who marks a target and stalks them across a battle field like death itself is out to get them. You get the picture. Hell a Ranger/Rogue is about as close to an Assassin class build I've ever seen and it's mean.

    There is also a weird thing with Druids where their wild shape only lasts minutes now and not being an all days affair. Folks are miffed about that. I think it's because of the new action economy thing. But it ignores the roleplaying aspects of druids who just like to hang out in animal form or stuff like using a form for long distance travel. It brings them into parity with Alchemists mutations, but eh. I'm sure they'll cook up a spell/power variant that gives back the RP/travel options for Druids with out hurting combat balance. Enough folks are bitching about it. On the upside, you can turn into Dinosaurs and Dragons now in combat!

    So over all. Yes, Pathfinder 2E dipped heavily into 4E and 5E's bag of tricks, but there is enough raw new going on. Especially with action economy and combat flow (I think they started with this mind when they designed it.) that it's worth a look over.

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  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    Oh, there are more multiclass options out there. But in the playtest they wanted to focus on the core 4 and a few prestige/archtype options. Cavalier, Pirate!, Gray Maiden, are some of the ones in the book. Btw, Pirate is bad ass and allows for crazy Errol Flynn fun. Yar mate, go find yourself some chandelier ropes fast! And not all prestige archtypes are the same in raw number of feats. Some like Cavalier has a ton of optional feats for a few builds, but others like Pirate are shorter buts still fun. Just have to weigh your options.

    Also you have to go 2+ feats into a multi/prestige tree before you can nab another one. So you CAN technically be a 3 class variant but it will be much later into your character progression. And yes, there are some viable builds that way. I can see a Paladin/Cavalier/Fighter build that rides around on their mount with lances and dishes out long reaching AoOs on anyone trying to get past them...and then charging down a foe on horseback and smiting them with gusto. Hugely situational, but still interesting. The full/post playtest core and later books should shed enough multi options to get really creative.

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  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    The best things that can be said about Pathfinder 2e is it stole heavily from the better iterations of D&D and that it can actually be played.

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  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    edited August 9
    Ardent wrote: »
    The best things that can be said about Pathfinder 2e is it stole heavily from the better iterations of D&D and that it can actually be played.

    Well, it is the most successful homebrew D&D setting out there.


    Edit: Being catty aside, it does make me curious. I'll probably download the playtest for my PDF hoard but I'm unsure if I'll get a chance to play until after its release.

    Fuselage on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited August 9
    I'm unsure if it is the most successful homebrew or not. Greyhawk was Gary's home campaign before it became the official setting for whatever edition.

    Pathfinder's setting was always a construction of a business intending to market it.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    @Mostlyjoe13 So now people are no longer flatfooted when a combat encounter starts, and there's no such thing as a surprise round anymore. The trick with rogues is that they have a specific ability that lets them apply flatfooted to enemies that haven't moved yet. Anyone who sneaks and does anything other than walking or hiding is immediately seen, and combat begins (assuming that's appropriate for the situation). The dealio here is that if you're sneaking around and initiate combat, you use your stealth check as your initiative and your foe uses their perception for their initiative. You know, the one they just botched and is lower than the rogue's stealth score.

    So in order:
    Rogue rolls Stealth (Sneak) of 25 and walks up to [Target].
    [Target] rolls Perception of 24 and the Rogue is now Unseen.
    Rogue declares that she will stabs the [Target] and immediately becomes Seen.
    The Rogue's initiative is 25, the [Target]'s initiative is 24, and everyone else rolls normally.
    The Rogue goes before her target, uses her class feature to apply flatfooted to the [Target], and gains her sneak attack dice.

    Mostlyjoe13
  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    That sounds cool for the rogue, but as the DM it really confirms my love of just taking clockwise turns.

    SleepTox
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Forgotten Realms is the most successful homebrew D&D setting. I think Dragonlance is a close second?

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  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    So those of you who have read pf2.0, how does it stack against 13th age?

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So those of you who have read pf2.0, how does it stack against 13th age?

    Entirely different philosophy. 13th Age gives just enough structure to feel like D&D while providing a bunch of things to let players express themselves and take part in creating the world. PF2 gives a full on D&D structure to run the game from top to bottom and in traditional D&D fashion restricts player creativity to mostly making their character in an official capacity.

    13th Age is D&D pushed towards the story game axis. PF2 is a direct descendent of the 3rd edition comprehensive rules branch though it steals some game-y ideas from 4th.

    ElvenshaeToxArdent
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Interesting. I wonder if the new pathfinder will break around level 12 like the old one. It was a reason my group moved to 13th age and 5th ed.

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  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    edited August 9
    Ardent wrote: »
    The best things that can be said about Pathfinder 2e is it stole heavily from the better iterations of D&D and that it can actually be played.

    That's a fair way of putting it. The numbers may be crazy at high levels, but mechanically they should work. Still no idea how bad modifier soup will be post level 10 play. That was a breaking point for me and 3.X systems. But they flattened out stuff like item math (items cap out at +3) and active buffs, so odds are I won't hate it as much. It's really hard to beat 5E's advantage/disadvantage mechanic.

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  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Interesting. I wonder if the new pathfinder will break around level 12 like the old one. It was a reason my group moved to 13th age and 5th ed.
    It's tough to say. Napkin math says it should be fine, but the big caveat here is that's based entirely on what's available in the playtest material. If the first splats introduce a bunch of new ways to modify, the playability equation becomes more complicated.

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  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    So those of you who have read pf2.0, how does it stack against 13th age?

    The biggest difference as a player is that (in my experience) the feats that you get in 13th Age are pretty forgettable and mechanically low impact. Feats in pf2 are roughly 70% of your character, mechanically. There are similarities like math scaling with level (rolling 15d6 for damage in 13th or adding your level to AC in pf2), but 13th age is intrinsically a 4th edition hack, while pf2 is a 3rd edition hack.

    Unless they're planning on stealing icons or 4e style stat blocks (as in, divorcing NPCs and PCs in rules), I don't think the two editions are terribly similar.

  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    edited August 10
    Ardent wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Interesting. I wonder if the new pathfinder will break around level 12 like the old one. It was a reason my group moved to 13th age and 5th ed.
    It's tough to say. Napkin math says it should be fine, but the big caveat here is that's based entirely on what's available in the playtest material. If the first splats introduce a bunch of new ways to modify, the playability equation becomes more complicated.

    That's true. Even my bone stock rogue by level 12 was throwing four attacks and if I could get sneak attack I was throwing 26d6. That is only using the core rulebook too.

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  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Interesting. I wonder if the new pathfinder will break around level 12 like the old one. It was a reason my group moved to 13th age and 5th ed.
    It's tough to say. Napkin math says it should be fine, but the big caveat here is that's based entirely on what's available in the playtest material. If the first splats introduce a bunch of new ways to modify, the playability equation becomes more complicated.

    That's true. Even my bone stock rogue by level 12 was throwing four attacks and if I could get sneak attack I was throwing 26d6. That is only using the core rulebook too.

    That's assuming you hit on four attacks, which is less than likely. Assuming 22 dex, 8/3BAB, +2 and +1 weapons, that's two attacks at +14/+9 and another two at +13/+8. A CR11 giant has 23AC, giving you around a 2% chance to hit all four attacks. That said, the problem comes when the fighter charges in with a shield bash into trip, and then gives you +4 from attacking a prone creature and +2 from flanking. Then the cleric's Bless, the wizard's Haste, etc.

    Or the wizard can cast Hold Monster against the giant's +7 will save and end the fight there.

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Sounds like PF2 is going to be super fun to play the character building game in, in the very least.

    ElvenshaePolaritieMostlyjoe13
  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    13th age is intrinsically a 4th edition hack
    Really? How so? I'm not doubting you or anything, just curious; I didn't really get that impression, but I only ever read the 13th Age rulebook once, and even that was at a hurried pace, so I probably missed the deeper connections.

  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Interesting. I wonder if the new pathfinder will break around level 12 like the old one. It was a reason my group moved to 13th age and 5th ed.
    It's tough to say. Napkin math says it should be fine, but the big caveat here is that's based entirely on what's available in the playtest material. If the first splats introduce a bunch of new ways to modify, the playability equation becomes more complicated.

    That's true. Even my bone stock rogue by level 12 was throwing four attacks and if I could get sneak attack I was throwing 26d6. That is only using the core rulebook too.

    That's assuming you hit on four attacks, which is less than likely. Assuming 22 dex, 8/3BAB, +2 and +1 weapons, that's two attacks at +14/+9 and another two at +13/+8. A CR11 giant has 23AC, giving you around a 2% chance to hit all four attacks. That said, the problem comes when the fighter charges in with a shield bash into trip, and then gives you +4 from attacking a prone creature and +2 from flanking. Then the cleric's Bless, the wizard's Haste, etc.

    Or the wizard can cast Hold Monster against the giant's +7 will save and end the fight there.

    Yea, the key is having a good spell caster at your side. Between haste and enemy de-buffs it makes the hits all the more easy to get. We were playing two characters each and my monk was regularly throwing out 7 attacks. Even if they don't all hit you're still rolling for 7 attacks. It just became cumbersome.

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  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    edited August 10
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    13th age is intrinsically a 4th edition hack
    Really? How so? I'm not doubting you or anything, just curious; I didn't really get that impression, but I only ever read the 13th Age rulebook once, and even that was at a hurried pace, so I probably missed the deeper connections.

    Saves as DCs, powers as class features, static health growth, no multiclassing, feats everywhere, adventurer/champion/epic tiers, heavily scaled down skills, ongoing saves, healing surges, monster stat blocks are completely ripped from 4e, dealing damage on misses, scaling weapon dice (1d6 damage level 1, 7d6 damage level 7), status effects everywhere, no spell lists. It was also designed by the 4e people.

    It's a great game, but limited in a number of ways. If you're not concerned with the things they've scaled back on (skills gone, only 10 levels, powers over spells), it's amazing and all the content is AAA quality.

    @webguy20 Iterative attacks are the worst and I can't express how ridiculously happy I am that the entire industry has moved past them.

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  • ToothyToothy Registered User regular
    I mean, 13th Age was made by the lead designers of both third and fourth edition D&D. I think there are a bunch of mechanics held over from third edition, too.

    ElvenshaeFuselageMsAnthropyArdentAnialosDevoutlyApatheticMostlyjoe13
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Fuselage wrote: »
    That sounds cool for the rogue, but as the DM it really confirms my love of just taking clockwise turns.

    It sounds like the 5e surprise rounds but with extra player steps to be honest.
    (5e - Hide, get surprise, stab, start normal round, win initiative because rogue, assassinate or sneak attack again)

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    13th age is intrinsically a 4th edition hack
    Really? How so? I'm not doubting you or anything, just curious; I didn't really get that impression, but I only ever read the 13th Age rulebook once, and even that was at a hurried pace, so I probably missed the deeper connections.

    Saves as DCs, powers as class features, static health growth, no multiclassing, feats everywhere, adventurer/champion/epic tiers, heavily scaled down skills, ongoing saves, healing surges, monster stat blocks are completely ripped from 4e, dealing damage on misses, scaling weapon dice (1d6 damage level 1, 7d6 damage level 7), status effects everywhere, no spell lists. It was also designed by the 4e people.

    It's a great game, but limited in a number of ways. If you're not concerned with the things they've scaled back on (skills gone, only 10 levels, powers over spells), it's amazing and all the content is AAA quality.

    webguy20 Iterative attacks are the worst and I can't express how ridiculously happy I am that the entire industry has moved past them.

    Ehhh

    Skills aren't "gone" they're just hidden, and hidden well. Rather, you still do make skill checks, it's just now you add your background bonus, when it applies.

    Also 13 True Ways brought in multiclassing rules. Specifically, you can be dual-classed. They don't have a strict system that matches the 4e "crosstraining" style MC stuff, but it could easily be homebrewed in, and some classes already have features that basically give them multiclassing abilities into certain other classes (Paladins can take Cleric domains, for instance, and in so doing become noticeably more cleric-y).

    But in general yes 13th Age was an attempt by former designers of both 3.x and 4e to make a game that borrowed what they viewed as the best mechanics from both systems.

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  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Now I want to play 13th age again. My main group is D&D 100% of the time, and my second group is Genesys, which I adore. 13th Age scratched that itch though for my favorite version of D20 based games.

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  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    13th age is intrinsically a 4th edition hack
    Really? How so? I'm not doubting you or anything, just curious; I didn't really get that impression, but I only ever read the 13th Age rulebook once, and even that was at a hurried pace, so I probably missed the deeper connections.

    Saves as DCs, powers as class features, static health growth, no multiclassing, feats everywhere, adventurer/champion/epic tiers, heavily scaled down skills, ongoing saves, healing surges, monster stat blocks are completely ripped from 4e, dealing damage on misses, scaling weapon dice (1d6 damage level 1, 7d6 damage level 7), status effects everywhere, no spell lists. It was also designed by the 4e people.

    It's a great game, but limited in a number of ways. If you're not concerned with the things they've scaled back on (skills gone, only 10 levels, powers over spells), it's amazing and all the content is AAA quality.

    webguy20 Iterative attacks are the worst and I can't express how ridiculously happy I am that the entire industry has moved past them.

    Ehhh

    Skills aren't "gone" they're just hidden, and hidden well. Rather, you still do make skill checks, it's just now you add your background bonus, when it applies.

    Also 13 True Ways brought in multiclassing rules. Specifically, you can be dual-classed. They don't have a strict system that matches the 4e "crosstraining" style MC stuff, but it could easily be homebrewed in, and some classes already have features that basically give them multiclassing abilities into certain other classes (Paladins can take Cleric domains, for instance, and in so doing become noticeably more cleric-y).

    But in general yes 13th Age was an attempt by former designers of both 3.x and 4e to make a game that borrowed what they viewed as the best mechanics from both systems.

    Right, but if you look at skills in 3e, 4e, 13th, and pf2, you'll see that 13th age took skills gutted them (like 4e) while pf2e exploded them (like 3e). 13th's hybrid classes are whole-cloth taken from 4e's hybrid classes as well, while pf2e stole the crosstraining feats.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    13th age is intrinsically a 4th edition hack
    Really? How so? I'm not doubting you or anything, just curious; I didn't really get that impression, but I only ever read the 13th Age rulebook once, and even that was at a hurried pace, so I probably missed the deeper connections.

    Saves as DCs, powers as class features, static health growth, no multiclassing, feats everywhere, adventurer/champion/epic tiers, heavily scaled down skills, ongoing saves, healing surges, monster stat blocks are completely ripped from 4e, dealing damage on misses, scaling weapon dice (1d6 damage level 1, 7d6 damage level 7), status effects everywhere, no spell lists. It was also designed by the 4e people.

    It's a great game, but limited in a number of ways. If you're not concerned with the things they've scaled back on (skills gone, only 10 levels, powers over spells), it's amazing and all the content is AAA quality.

    webguy20 Iterative attacks are the worst and I can't express how ridiculously happy I am that the entire industry has moved past them.

    Ehhh

    Skills aren't "gone" they're just hidden, and hidden well. Rather, you still do make skill checks, it's just now you add your background bonus, when it applies.

    Also 13 True Ways brought in multiclassing rules. Specifically, you can be dual-classed. They don't have a strict system that matches the 4e "crosstraining" style MC stuff, but it could easily be homebrewed in, and some classes already have features that basically give them multiclassing abilities into certain other classes (Paladins can take Cleric domains, for instance, and in so doing become noticeably more cleric-y).

    But in general yes 13th Age was an attempt by former designers of both 3.x and 4e to make a game that borrowed what they viewed as the best mechanics from both systems.

    Right, but if you look at skills in 3e, 4e, 13th, and pf2, you'll see that 13th age took skills gutted them (like 4e) while pf2e exploded them (like 3e). 13th's hybrid classes are whole-cloth taken from 4e's hybrid classes as well, while pf2e stole the crosstraining feats.

    So I really wanted to address this when I saw it this morning but my day became car accident heavy so I didn't and still don't really have time to do it justice but....WHAT?

    The possible skills in 13th Age is not smaller than any other edition D&D. It is larger than EVERY other version of D&D combined. The issue is there is no definitive skill list. All skills are bespoke descriptions of that character's past.

    Now this means there is no skill chapter with "x DC to tie a square knot with failing by 5 or less meaning you tie a granny knot". So if you want to say it gutted something it would be the exhaustive skill rules, not the skills themselves. They give out generalized DCs that have more to do with appropriate challenge than any sort of effort to maintain verisimilitude.

    Also gonna note that this is the exact opposite of what 4e did to skills. 4e narrowed the list and outside of skill challenges made skill descriptions that listed out the allowed actions with them. This was one of the 4e is a video game complaints even!

    ElvenshaeTox
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    13th Age was the true successor to 4e because they kept Warlords.

    GIVE ME MORE WARLORDS.

    wpyz0Y5.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    ElvenshaeJacobkoshLord PalingtonMsAnthropyMatev
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