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[Roleplaying Games] Thank God I Finally Have A Table For Cannabis Potency.

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Posts

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Yeah, mechanically I wouldn't want to let anything key off of dex that didn't already do so. Or maybe make him choose another stat to give him some of those effects? Tie his AC bonus to CHA then or something.

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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I had a big screed about my players, I might post it later, but simplified to its essence: I feel for the work I put into being a player and being a GM that I do not feel that reciprocated by my players. I attempt to throw myself into the roleplay portion of this thing as it is my favorite part and why I'll play systems I don't prefer like DnD 5E. I do this as GM and player, and I spend a lot of time building up the world and my characters. I do this, and then I do not feel appreciated when they do not try as hard with their roleplaying. It feels like they're treating this like a video game. One guy annoyingly almost never attempts to treat it as anything other than a video game. He will even answer other players trying to act in character and talk out of character directly about stats. I cannot even describe their characters because they basically have none. They feel like just the players' ids.

    I have tried to bring this up in the past. It didn't really work.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I had a big screed about my players, I might post it later, but simplified to its essence: I feel for the work I put into being a player and being a GM that I do not feel that reciprocated by my players. I attempt to throw myself into the roleplay portion of this thing as it is my favorite part and why I'll play systems I don't prefer like DnD 5E. I do this as GM and player, and I spend a lot of time building up the world and my characters. I do this, and then I do not feel appreciated when they do not try as hard with their roleplaying. It feels like they're treating this like a video game. One guy annoyingly almost never attempts to treat it as anything other than a video game. He will even answer other players trying to act in character and talk out of character directly about stats. I cannot even describe their characters because they basically have none. They feel like just the players' ids.

    I have tried to bring this up in the past. It didn't really work.

    I felt that way with my group, and eventually I quit. I mean, it wasn't exactly the same: it was more that they weren't engaging with the story. They were roleplaying, only their characters were lazy, greedy, loafers who didn't want to do anything except collect treasure. We chatted a bit about how to be more engaged, but by then I felt it was better to spend one of my days off painting Warhammer minis than running a game. I'm not saying this is the right answer, only that you're not alone. You could try getting one of them to run a game for a while and see if that experience changes their mind.

    italianranma on
    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
    MrVyngaard
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    They know the etiquette, but they're not really engaging the story. It feels like they're along for the ride. They follow the cues. That's about it.

    The issue I have with getting someone else to GM is that I have in two different instances and also put my effort into that. They seemed to be better about it when GMing.

    Like I talk so much about my NPCs because they give me nothing to talk about.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
    MrVyngaard
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Learn to live with how they play or cancel the game. It's a crappy answer but no one's gonna be happy if you try to force them to change.

    Hahnsoo1SleepElvenshaeJustTeeAnialosMatevjakobagger
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    I guess it is okay testing for this overall campaign if I want to run it again.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    No Gaming is Better Than Bad Gaming

    you should drop em like a bad habit and forge a group out of like minded individuals elsewhere

    if not in meatspace, then online

    jdarksunJustTeewebguy20JacobkoshRingoArdentMrVyngaardMatevjakobagger
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Let me rephrase: They engage the story but do not act in a way that tells me they think the story is engaging. The most common reaction to most things they see is "neat". They don't really ask questions or interact with the characters beyond very simple mission stuff.

    FE: I love playing Lansrick. I gave him a faux-English voice of like an old Robin Hood serial and he is just passionate for everything.

    Think the generals trom Warhammer Fantasy or the Witch Hunter from Vermintide

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    At PAX Unplugged I attended a panel that was for Lazy GMs, which had a lot of techniques I had already discovered myself. I learned a few things from it, so it wasn't a total waste, but at the end of the day the core assumption for a continuous weekly game is that you always find it worthwhile. And to be honest, I don't always find that kind of thing worthwhile. I think I'd rather plan an arc or two and then take a break before doing the next one, and that's how I'm going to plan my next games to see how it works. It's a bit of a hard pill to swallow I think for new groups, but hopefully someone else can GM in the mean time... or they can just wait. I mean, I've got a lot of Warhammer to paint. And Kill Team is the new drug in my area.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    you can have a weekly game without adhering to the Endless Campaign model: my Saturday group is basically a magical girl police procedural as a counterpoint to my DnD game, and when one of those ends something new will step in to last however long

    Matev
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Let me rephrase: They engage the story but do not act in a way that tells me they think the story is engaging. The most common reaction to most things they see is "neat". They don't really ask questions or interact with the characters beyond very simple mission stuff.

    FE: I love playing Lansrick. I gave him a faux-English voice of like an old Robin Hood serial and he is just passionate for everything.

    Think the generals trom Warhammer Fantasy or the Witch Hunter from Vermintide
    Unfortunately for you, that's a perfectly valid way to interact with the world and RPG. It just so happens to not be the way that makes you happy, sadly. You want something out of roleplaying that they do not want. You can't force a square peg into a round hole. Either you figure out a way where you can deal with it, or you leave the group, who seems to be content in the way they are playing now.

    Roleplaying is a skill, and like any skill, it requires practice. Sometimes, building up that skill feels like work (actually, a LOT of the time, it feels like work), which means people aren't going to want to do it because who wants to do homework when they are trying to have fun? I'm sorry that your group doesn't have those kinds of skills developed, but they are in a different place than you are when it comes to gaming.

    For some people, talking about their feelings comes naturally, but for others, especially in this hobby, it's a tall ask, even when you know that it's fake.

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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    wnai7yg1cr1m.jpg
    comin' at me with those tough pills.

    I understand.

    Edit: I got to do something that I wanted to do for a while. The enforcer chief of the hive sector we were in is basically at the mercy of gangers who are not even our targets. We kicked bionic ghoul ass and then cleared the enforcer station. We got some info out of the chief and I told him very pointedly that he better go to the arbites the first chance he gets. He begged for mercy and I replied “mercy is for the weak”

    Then walked away

    I hope to make that a thing for non-Chaos npcs.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    You are not alone in these feelings, as I would imagine that every roleplayer... especially GM's... has had similar experiences.

    "Why dont you put as much into this as I do?" Is probably as common a thought as "Woah... that dude is into this stuff."

    But not every table is Critical Role or AQI. You've got to be able to manage those expectations of yourself and others. And if you can't be satisfied with the group you have, as others have said, look around for another group that gives you what you need. That is much easier said than done though. For sure.

    NipsSleepRhesus PositiveAuralynxJustTeeAnialosMrVyngaard
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    The reason I don't really watch critical roll or AQI is that they build an expectation of what role playing is going to look like that is honestly unsustainable in a real casual game environment. The folks at those tables are paid entertainers, doing paid entertainer shit that looks like D&D. They aren't 6 folks tired from a week or two of work that just kinda wanna play a little make believe where they kill monsters rather than deal with all their actual real world drama shit for about 3 hours. The folks in the big streaming games are folks at work, trying to be "on" for the cameras as a form of entertainment for others. Which is totally cool that they've found a means by which to monetize the format, but shouldn't be taken as indicative of what a table should always look like.

    Hahnsoo1Rhesus PositiveSteelhawkAuralynxElvenshaecrimsoncoyoteadmanbNipsAnialosArdentMatevjakobagger
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Absolutely.

    But that's the dream isn't it? For you to be as good a DM as Matt Mercer (for example) and to have players like he does; devouring whatever you give them eagerly and giving back just as good as they get?

    It's never going to happen. Never. But that's the dream.

    JustTeeitalianranmaBursar
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    It's A dream, I don't know that it's THE dream.

    Hahnsoo1ElvenshaeMatevjakobagger
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Absolutely.

    But that's the dream isn't it? For you to be as good a DM as Matt Mercer (for example) and to have players like he does; devouring whatever you give them eagerly and giving back just as good as they get?

    It's never going to happen. Never. But that's the dream.
    Sounds tiring. That’s not MY dream.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    To be clear, when I go to conventions like Gen Con, I bring my A game with an interesting character and backstory and roleplay the shit out of everything. I am going to a con game because I want to bring that high level energy with a bunch of other strangers who want to do the same.

    But my weekly game? It's just me and my friends shooting the shit, enjoying each others' company. We're all tired from a week of working hard. They have kids now, and sometimes they have to wander off and deal with them. One of the players hasn't ever been extremely interactive, but she loves sketching scenes from the games we are playing while we are playing, and the result contributes just as much to the fun of the group as being a more proactive player. It's a good group, and we've been friends for decades. These are folks who came all the way over to my side of the country when my wife passed away (who also was part of the group).

    I don't need them to bring their A game to every weekly session for me to be happy. I'd rather have good people than good roleplayers.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I feel my consternation comes from feeling like I don’t have an outlet like a gencon where you share that energy. I love writing this stuff though and acting it out so I’m going to keep doing that. Also fodder for the radishow which I’m scrapping the prototype and redoing.

    For that Punisher influenced character I posted about, would stormtroopers fighting behind enemy lines on an exodite eldar world in a campaign that is going to be lost a good equivalent to Vietnam? Thinking of calling it “Cilleathe” pronounced “Shil-laythe”

    One plot concerning him is that a Cadian regiment (company? battalion?) of a couple thousand remaining guard and kasrkin fought this campaign and lost their leaders. They’re now called the headless legion. They were sent to Desoleum, the planet the acolytes work on, and through various fuckups by the munitorum and administratum and with no one to petition for them to be sent back to Cadia or merged with another regiment to fight on they were basically abandoned and forced to integrate into Desoleum. They got work which some thought beneath their dignity as warriors. Some tried to find a front or Cadia again through pilgrim ships and other means, but it’s dangerous to do stellar travel. There are higher rates of suicide and depression among the Cadians. He, Rosco Tyruss, was one of the few who were happy to get out after the hell that was Cilleathe. Then the events occured that turned him into the Rook. There are other discontent cadians from the guard and kasrkin that are being turned to the service of the grand conspiracy out of revenge for their mistreatment. Others found work or even found their way into the local pdf the Cadres of the Involute Oathe having to work from the bottom. Further others became mercenaries or criminals.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Whatever floats anyone's boat, for sure. My home games are nothing like CR or AQI, and while that would be awesome, I don't expect it but rather recognize that that's an ideal to aim for. I wasn't comparing/judging the level of acting/roleplaying of any given home game with a professional game by experienced actors, but rather the level of engagement the players have with the DM.

    A player may not cheer at a someone else's natural 20, or be hanging on the edge of their seats as you describe a minor NPC...but if they are sketching the scene and sharing with the group later, then I would also classify that as an enviable level of engagement. Enjoy it!

    Sleep
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Whatever floats anyone's boat, for sure. My home games are nothing like CR or AQI, and while that would be awesome, I don't expect it but rather recognize that that's an ideal to aim for. I wasn't comparing/judging the level of acting/roleplaying of any given home game with a professional game by experienced actors, but rather the level of engagement the players have with the DM.

    A player may not cheer at a someone else's natural 20, or be hanging on the edge of their seats as you describe a minor NPC...but if they are sketching the scene and sharing with the group later, then I would also classify that as an enviable level of engagement. Enjoy it!
    I don't find that kind of interaction to be the ideal. It's AN ideal to be sure, but everyone wants different things out of their RPG sessions. Constant engagement doesn't HAVE to exist in an RPG to be enjoyable for all people in the sessions. Some people just want to move the little mans around and roll dice. Some people revel in inter-party bickering (I love when your companions fight in Baldur's Gate-style computer games!). It's not the game that I want to play, to be sure, but recognizing what makes everyone happy at your table is the real ideal.*

    * I think the real ideal was inside us all along.**
    ** The real ideal was the friends we made along the way.

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    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
    SteelhawkElvenshaeSleepRhesus PositiveMatev
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    I've definitely run into Good Roleplayers(TM) who were unrepentant assholes outside of the game, too. We can't assume that just because someone is good at roleplaying that they also would be empathetic and considerate of others... the opposite actually may be true! Narcissism is an easy trap to fall into when roleplaying.

    Conversely, I have friends who I would never run an RPG with, because the last time they did, they would just drop grenades in the middle of the group and giggle.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
    Steelhawk
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    I don’t need constant engagement though. I don’t expect the Unexpectables (meheh). I don’t need grand sweeping speeches or overwhelming backstories or to be on 100% of ths time. I just want them to ask a question once in a while and show just a little personal agency and to not respond with most interactions with characters or descriptions of places with just an “okay”.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I don’t need constant engagement though. I don’t expect the Unexpectables (meheh). I don’t need grand sweeping speeches or overwhelming backstories or to be on 100% of ths time. I just want them to ask a question once in a while and show just a little personal agency and to not respond with most interactions with characters or descriptions of places with just an “okay”.

    Your expectations are perfectly reasonable of what I would consider the average RPG player, but there are a lot of players out there that don't really want to engage at any level deeper than 1. build a character 2. get into fights and 3. maybe listen to someone talk a story at them. They likely also enjoy the social experience, or they'd just play CRPGs, but they enjoy it because they get to hang out with their friends and make jokes, not tell a collaborative story.

    SteelhawkDelduwathElvenshaeitalianranmaMrVyngaardMatevjakobagger
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I don’t need constant engagement though. I don’t expect the Unexpectables (meheh). I don’t need grand sweeping speeches or overwhelming backstories or to be on 100% of ths time. I just want them to ask a question once in a while and show just a little personal agency and to not respond with most interactions with characters or descriptions of places with just an “okay”.
    Well, you know them better than we do. What actually gets them excited? I'd start from there. I find it highly unlikely that they have gone through their entire lives saying "Neat!" "Okay!" to everything that entertains them. If you can figure out what gets their motor running, you can create content that entices them.

    Alternatively, one of the cardinal rules of RPGs (and life): Just because you put a ton of effort into something doesn't mean that it will do the thing you want it to do. For example, one of our rotating GMs, many years ago, made this gigantic zoo heist where he detailed every single animal in all of the pens throughout the zoo and expected our characters to interact with more than just our target (some of the animals were magically gifted and thus were quite deadly). We ended up airlifting our target with a helicopter and ignoring ALL of that content.

    Making content doesn't mean it'll be used. Which is why you set up setpieces that can be repurposed for other adventures, like set dressings at a local community theater. There's little reason to make bespoke things that only work for one scenario ever.

    Also, finally, maybe they just like being told a story, and don't really care about player agency? Maybe they just want to be told a tale and to participate in the most superficial way, like a background NPC in a Disney movie or something?

    I dunno. You sound unhappy with your group, and you can pinpoint what you don't like about the group. Can you identify about what you DO like about the group? Can you list off any strengths in their RPG play? Even if it's "They like to kill shit!" Earlier, you mentioned Video Game Person, who refuses to interact with the game except in a superficial Video Game level. Maybe lean into that? Make the game MORE like a video game? We had a superhero campaign where one of the characters essentially had one combat power, and that's "respawn at checkpoint" if something goes bad (very limited time travel).

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
    destroyah87ElvenshaeRhesus PositiveMatev
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I think that's generally good advice if Kadoken's main concern is engaging with their existing group, but it sounds like the group is perfectly happy whereas Kadoken is not having any fun with their style of gaming.

  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I'm having fun it's just not as much as I feel I could have if they engaged a little more. It feels like a void that's not being filled. They are fine mechanically interacting with the game.

    In terms of strengths: They show up. They're not dicks to me or to each other. They are generally cooperative with me and each other. They generally do react well to combat situations and will even seek to avoid really hard ones if they can still finish their mission without it. They generally follow my lead. They accept what happens to them. One guy who I talk to a lot does tend to get complainy when he's losing or has to roll a lot but otherwise, he's fine. They know to joke around when it's appropriate. They know when I need time to explain stuff or set something up. They can generally at least put a tiny bit of character with their basic interactions with people. They are all generally patient. Most of them make an effort to know the game and at least skim some lore.

    My issue with the videogame boy is that not only does he not really get into character but he also doesn't make an effort to learn the system. So he's not even really a metagamer. I think he does generally mean well though. It is annoying when I called someone a "psyker" and even though that's what he plays he was like "what's that". He's also been playing for like a year now with half of that being weekly sessions.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    i also think it's kind of funny to hear people say "well it's great and all but it's not that great, why bring your A game all the time, that's just too serious for me"

    like, what if Kadoken / Anyone wants their game to be like that? why does an engaging, invested game automatically mean people are trying too hard?

    also by admission of the people on CR, that table was like that before they ever turned a camera on, so saying "it's just out of my reach" is a discredit to yourself and making excuses. put in the work and get there and don't let anyone else tell you you can't.

    ArcanisTheImpotent on
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  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    I don't need them to bring their A game to every weekly session for me to be happy. I'd rather have good people than good roleplayers.

    i have to circle back around to this because it's patronizing and saturated with the implication that they're mutually exclusive... like, what the heck?

    destroyah87KadokenToxJacobkoshJustTeejdarksun
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I don't need them to bring their A game to every weekly session for me to be happy. I'd rather have good people than good roleplayers.

    i have to circle back around to this because it's patronizing and saturated with the implication that they're mutually exclusive... like, what the heck?
    As I've said, I've run into the unrepentant asshole gamers that were good roleplayers before, mostly at conventions (but a handful in real life). *shrugs* There are a LOT of "not good" people in this hobby, unfortunately, even as there are good ones throughout (like most of us here). We've all run into neckbeards, into drama queens, into toxic individuals who think that a medieval simulation needs to include sexism, etc. We've all posted stories or read stories on this very thread (well, at least past threads) about the toxic gamers. This is not a new thing.
    i also think it's kind of funny to hear people say "well it's great and all but it's not that great, why bring your A game all the time, that's just too serious for me"

    like, what if Kadoken / Anyone wants their game to be like that? why does an engaging, invested game automatically mean people are trying too hard?

    also by admission of the people on CR, that table was like that before they ever turned a camera on, so saying "it's just out of my reach" is a discredit to yourself and making excuses. put in the work and get there and don't let anyone else tell you you can't.
    No one said that engaging games are trying too hard. That's you projecting onto us. We are all saying that roleplaying and engaging takes skill, talent, and work. It's an investment of energy. And not everyone is willing to bring the same amount of energy to the table. Some people simply don't know how because they are novices at it. Others are unwilling, whether from real-life fatigue or temperament. It's not a simple problem to crack.

    My friends AREN'T good roleplayers for the most part. I would never put a camera on them for the purposes to entertain. Hell, one of my friends sits there and sketches for most of the game.* And yeah, they don't bring their A game to every session because it takes WORK. Sometimes it's fun work, but sometimes they have a screaming kid and deadlines and bills and they just want to sit and vege in the session with their friends for a while.

    If Kadoken WANTS his game to be like a tabletop podcast, he sounds like he needs to either: 1) Whip his group into shape. Which will probably cause the group the disintegrate. Also, this exacerbates the non-reciprocal energy problem, where he's putting way more effort into his game than his group is. 2) Leave the group and find one that matches his playing style and energy. That can be pretty difficult, especially if you aren't looking for an online game.

    I'm at least trying to figure out what he's unhappy with in my posts. Your advice reads like: "Put more work into it and it will all magically work!" It doesn't really happen that way, and the energy not being returned on your investment is a very real RPG problem that isn't solved by throwing MORE work at the problem.

    * Ironically, the sketcher is actually a part-time actress IRL, who has appeared in bit parts in movies and various plays. Maybe RPing in our sessions feels too much like her actual part-time job?

    Hahnsoo1 on
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  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I don’t think we should be focusing on the idea of “bringing their A game” because it suggests that the alternative to role playing/character development/engaging with the storytelling is that the player is lazy, which I think is distracting from the fact that this conversation is fundamentally about playstyles.

    You don’t have to be high-energy or camera-ready to be the kind of player that will fit into Kadoken/Arcanis/my games. Hell, I’m the GM and I’m not high energy and I’m definitely not camera ready.

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  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    it seemed pretty obvious to be a group incompatibility, so i don't see the "meeting halfway" approach as being worthwhile

    and nothing you said absolves you of the statement you made that being a "good roleplayer" is intrinsically tied to your quality as a person

    furthermore,
    I don't need them to bring their A game

    implies that there's some sliding scale of effort here. you admitted there is some level of "work" there. why is it wrong or bad for Kadoken to want some of that work to be at his table? does it even have to be considered work?

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  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I think what’s getting lost here is that there is a huge range of people in between “veg out” and “literally Critical Role.” It’s not unreasonable for Kadoken to be disappointed that they have an entire group of “veg out.”

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I'm having fun it's just not as much as I feel I could have if they engaged a little more. It feels like a void that's not being filled. They are fine mechanically interacting with the game.

    In terms of strengths: They show up. They're not dicks to me or to each other. They are generally cooperative with me and each other. They generally do react well to combat situations and will even seek to avoid really hard ones if they can still finish their mission without it. They generally follow my lead. They accept what happens to them. One guy who I talk to a lot does tend to get complainy when he's losing or has to roll a lot but otherwise, he's fine. They know to joke around when it's appropriate. They know when I need time to explain stuff or set something up. They can generally at least put a tiny bit of character with their basic interactions with people. They are all generally patient. Most of them make an effort to know the game and at least skim some lore.

    My issue with the videogame boy is that not only does he not really get into character but he also doesn't make an effort to learn the system. So he's not even really a metagamer. I think he does generally mean well though. It is annoying when I called someone a "psyker" and even though that's what he plays he was like "what's that". He's also been playing for like a year now with half of that being weekly sessions.
    I mean, this sounds like you are mostly there already. All of those are things that are basic out-of-character table problems that don't seem to be problems for you. That's great! It rolls back to having good people first (which is important to me).

    Have you ever had a "game zero" session that sets expectations of what the GM is going to throw at the players and what the players want out of the GM? If they don't care too much about the story, as long as its entertaining, they might feel like they are just along for the ride (and that's okay if they are okay with it... lots of people like to go with a story that's like a locked-in theme park ride). Maybe they have some sort of media in mind when they are player, like "I want this to be like Master and Commander, with British ships and sailing on the seas". It sounds like your campaign is already mostly established, so maybe you need to do a mid-campaign check-in to figure out "Hey, what parts of this are working for you? What parts of this aren't working? Do you know what you are doing with the character right now?"

    One trick that I use when I'm GMing a group that isn't interacting is to do snap polls constantly that poll the entire group. Pose a simple dilemma with some simple answers and have each member of the group chime in, even if it's "Hey, I like that person's idea. Let's go with that." It is far more effective to ask a question than it is to speak a paragraph.

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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I might have also given the impression my group is bad or I’m not enjoying myself; like when I wanted to leave that DnD game I had back then explicitly said I wanted to leave in my posts. They are fine players. They give minimal effort as roleplayers. I like making the stuff and running through it. It’s the spaces of time where I wait for them and they don’t really have anything to say even when I prompt them so I cut to the next map or whatever that I feel kind of hollow like I’m just running the paces when that could be filled with them interacting with someone or something. I don’t know if they’re having fun and while it isn’t boring as I set up the next thing I feel it could be more. It doesn’t help when that one guy I talk to will complain about having multiple and/or long combat encounters (which I’m working on) and it’s like this is the thing you talk the most about why are you complaining when I give you what you want when it feels you don’t have the initiative (that I mentioned before) to solve investigative stuff and I know you would complain about doing environmental challenge stuff and I already know the social stuff is not your favorite.

    I just wanted to vent. I would like to find a group like that one day. But I am lucky to have the current group be as agreeable as they are that I can do this stuff with rather than keep it in a blog, on the forums, or in my brain.

    To be fair, I do understand it does take a lot of work to get really into it and possibly a bent toward creating stories. I listened to dozens of hours of Counter Monkey which was stories and videos of how to play along with dozens more of Role with Me, TFS DnD, and the Unexpectables. That was essentially studying. Can you blame me though for wanting just like a small fraction of that energy? It’s not really a state of mind easily obtained in daily life. It’s also not like I conscripted them into something they don’t want to do.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    it seemed pretty obvious to be a group incompatibility, so i don't see the "meeting halfway" approach as being worthwhile

    and nothing you said absolves you of the statement you made that being a "good roleplayer" is intrinsically tied to your quality as a person
    I explicitly stated that good roleplaying is NOT intrinsically tied to your quality as a person, but in the negative: "I've definitely run into Good Roleplayers(TM) who were unrepentant assholes outside of the game, too. We can't assume that just because someone is good at roleplaying that they also would be empathetic and considerate of others... the opposite actually may be true! Narcissism is an easy trap to fall into when roleplaying." I felt like I left it open enough. But hey, intent is not easy to read via online text, and I apologize.
    furthermore,
    I don't need them to bring their A game

    implies that there's some sliding scale of effort here. you admitted there is some level of "work" there. why is it wrong or bad for Kadoken to want some of that work to be at his table? does it even have to be considered work?
    I mean, maybe that's all they need... a pep talk. "Work harder at playing games together." *shrugs* Maybe that works for some groups. And yeah, if you are meeting regularly and getting together with people, there's some social cost involved, even if it's an opportunity cost. Engaging beyond your comfort zone (which, in this group, seems to be "Okay" "Neat") does take some amount of work, and it will take more investment of work to get them to get out of that zone. It exacerbates the perceived inequality of effort put into the game.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    To be fair, I do understand it does take a lot of work to get really into it and possibly a bent toward creating stories. I listened to dozens of hours of Counter Monkey which was stories and videos of how to play along with dozens more of Role with Me, TFS DnD, and the Unexpectables. That was essentially studying. Can you blame me though for wanting just like a small fraction of that energy? It’s not really a state of mind easily obtained in daily life. It’s also not like I conscripted them into something they don’t want to do.
    Heh. I think everyone here is obsessed with some form of gaming, and we all can relate. Maybe they feel like they ARE putting in the work and energy, and somehow you aren't seeing it? That's a conversation worth having in any relationship, even one as surface-level as a gaming one.

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  • ArcanisTheImpotentArcanisTheImpotent Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I think at this point if you're not willing to dump these people then you need to sit down and basically feed them some serious Real Talk

    like unvarnished, straight up what you've told us

    and let the dominoes fall how they fall. your group may disband after that. either way, you're not doing anyone any favors by continuing to support a group who comes to your game, clocks in for 2-4 hours, and then clocks out to go home. because that's what you've got by the sounds of it and you really don't like it

    (for what it's worth that behavior would literally drive me insane and I have put far more bullets than I can count into games after 1-2 sessions for that very reason, so I feel your pain)

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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I think at this point if you're not willing to dump these people then you need to sit down and basically feed them some serious Real Talk

    like unvarnished, straight up what you've told us

    and let the dominoes fall how they fall. your group may disband after that. either way, you're not doing anyone any favors by continuing to support a group who comes to your game, clocks in for 2-4 hours, and then clocks out to go home. because that's what you've got by the sounds of it and you really don't like it

    (for what it's worth that behavior would literally drive me insane and I have put far more bullets than I can count into games after 1-2 sessions for that very reason, so I feel your pain)

    I’m not calling you out or insinuating I have taken issue, but purely for clarification: the game is fine and fun enough. They mechanically engage. I just believe there is potential for it to be more fun if the guys would let loose and get into character more or at the very least try to interact with the stuff and characters a little more.

    (Not related to your post) I don’t got a detailed zoo problem. I got a not asking the major NPCs about stuff not related strictly to the mission nitpick. I don’t need 100% all the time, just maybe a tiny snippet about what a character is doing or how they are reacting. Not “I feel reluctance to kill this guy because I have deep daddy issues and my psyche can’t handle the projection of taking someone’s dad like mine was taken from me during the cold hive war of M40.998.36 and Amalathian philosophy states family is more important than everything.” I would just like “I take a deep breath, I close my eyes, and squeeze the trigger”.

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  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited December 2018
    Here's the thing.

    Running a laid back beer'n'pretzels game for your group of super easygoing totally chill working bros who just want to relax after a long week and hang out with their bros and roll dice with their bros and crack a brewski with their bros and laugh and joke with their bros and eat pork rinds with their bros and rub fistfuls of Crisco into their neck fat with their bros and abduct a minor with their bros and sell yellowcake to North Korea with their bros and and and

    is no less work than running a fuckin' high-octane drama fiesta where everyone is maximally engaged. In fact, it's often more!

    Because in the space where, in another game, the players might be talking amongst themselves or hashing out their ideas or making a bunch of helpful suggestions for you to fold into the game, you're probably talking instead. Or running monsters. Or bookkeeping. Or gently chivvying them to where the next encounter is. And it's probably happening in a system like D&D that makes no provisions for player-generated content, asks for a lot of management on the backend, and has a ton of weird rules intersections that require moment-to-moment adjudication and a constant stream of judgment calls.

    Like, it would make sense if there were a low-effort easy mode option for GMs, but the closest you can approach that is to either run a module (which still requires an outlay of time, money, memorization, the effort to slot it into an existing game, etc) or to turn over as much of the content-generation chore as possible to algorithms (random encounter tables, random mission tables, dungeon generators, sector-generation rules for space games, etc) but even after rolling on a bunch of tables to create your night's adventure...you've still gotta run that stuff. You're saving yourself work between sessions but not so much at the table. This is all setting aside the time and emotional labor of wrangling the group, managing schedules, hosting, etc, which aren't explicitly the province of the GM but often end up being that way in practice.

    It is absolutely the case that not all or even most tabletop gamers will ever be master thespians. And there's no law that says a player has to engage.

    But I don't think that that is what most GMs want? I think a whole lot of weary, dissatisfied game runners would be thrilled to just...have the players show up now and again, you know? And if it doesn't happen, and keeps not happening, the GM is not being a pissy prima donna to not want to spend a few hours a week being the human number cruncher for their friends. The GM is a player too and they ought to be having fun too, and if they aren't, it really is okay to just go "hey, maybe we should just play Descent."

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