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Princess, warrior, savior [Wonder Woman] OPEN SPOILERS

Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
edited June 2017 in Debate and/or Discourse
wonderwoman2006title.jpg



There's this movie about Wonder Woman in theaters. You may have heard about it.


Now for my review. Wow, it lived up to the hype and I was starting to get higher expectations the last few weeks. The optimistic reviews were on point for a lot of aspects, and some of the stuff which sounded hokey was executed superbly even if it was predictable and other films had done similar creative venues before. The DCEU took the idea of Thor, and The First Avenger blend together and meshed them with WW to make a fantastic movie. The pacing was greatly improved from the previous DCEU films, this is no Suicide Squad and the flashbacks weren't annoyingly put in there instead they were plot points that made sense rather than jarring. The MCU influence was heavily felt, at times it feels like watching an MCU movie - slot Wonder Woman in WWI and it fits right in there regarding the tone and style.

Not a weak link in the cast. Everyone did a super job, the screenplay by Allen Heinberg (who had a mediocre WW run in the past) was smart and witty while Patty Jenkins knocked every shot out of the park to make one of the best films of the year. The lady deserves awards for this effort. Give her Captain Marvel now, Marvel.

Gal Gadot was excellent as a lead, she was the weakest link on paper. She blows away her acting from the F & F movies. She's improved tremendously here, sharing the spotlight with Chris Pine, Robin Wright, Connie Neilsen and David Thewlis. Diana starts off as a spitfire with so much innocent and sweetness, without being irritating. Reminded me of Evans' Cap in The First Avenger, high praise indeed.

If you know of WW's origins they stay mostly on task, Diana saves Steve Trevor from Nazi's the Germans and not long after a small group of boats pursuing him he stole a book vital to creating the new generation of bombs by Dr. Poison so they get into a beach fight with the Amazons, and the fight is specular. While the Amazons put up an impressive show natural physics takes over when they come head to head against bullets, culminating in Diana's mentor, Antiope, sacrificing her life for Diana. This gets the ball rolling with the plot, forcing Diana to take Steve Rogers back to the war and stop Ares. They do subvert things, Diana herself is the God Killer, not the sword.

It's disappointing how they had Ares kill off the Greek pantheon entirely off-screen, that was one of the IP's intriguing aspects that differentiated her from super-heroes like Batman and Superman. However, their influence and Ares is felt, as they were made to take him on but Zeus created and cloaked Themyscira with his last breath (as well as creating the God Killer). The exposition for Themscira's and the Amazons is brief and direct, they had to condense a lot of WW's mythology - it would have been neat had Hephaestus made the sword (it's Zeus, he takes over the roles from Aphrodite, Artemis, Hestia etc). Oh well.

Diana slowly grows into WW through the movie, though the process is like Rogers' she doesn't have a solid Clark Kent type secret identity and everyone in her close circle knows who she is because she works with them to stop Ares. Maybe not Etta, I don't know if she found out I doubt she'd be shocked at the revelation.

Wright's Antiope is a delight the instant she's on the screen, for the brief screen time she's there she's magnificent. They really hammer home that she's the Amazons' best warrior and proves it with every move when she's in combat. It's a pity she's killed off, I'd watch a film about her. She loves Diana as much as Hypolyta and they are very close, yet they do have arguments over Diana and protecting the world/Themscira from Ares eventually return. She doesn't believe Zeus finished him off. She's right, of course. Among the Amazosn she makes the biggest impression.

Neilsen's Hypolyta is very faithful to the comics. She is very royal, strict yet fair. Wants to protect Diana above all else. In the centuries since the Greek gods perished, she's grown lax and wants the Amazons to stay away from mankind even when Ares' influence comes. The farewell she gives to Diana is emotional touching. That said, she isn't given much to do and is over shadowed by Diana and Antiope.

Chris Pine is wonderful in this movie. The best performance I've seen from him to boot. Immensely charismatic, smart, pragmatic, complicated and adjusting to the revelations about the Amazons and the weird shit like a normal person. The majority of the movie he doesn't believe Ares exists, that WWI won't end after she vanquished him it's all on man. He's ultimately proven wrong, ironically. Regularly gets into arguments with Diana, trying to hold her back because she is very opinionated about things and barely keeps her from disrupting everything - including the generals at London command almost immediately! What I thought was insightful and brave (for DC) is that they sleep together after their first mission, the two do love each other. This is a relief since for a long, long time DC was obsessed with making her a virgin because they didn't think fans could handle her having a boyfriend. One part they're sailing to London and they talk about sex, how Diana knows all about it - she's read some Amazonian Karma Sutra and how the Amazons only need men to reproduction (they don't actually confirm anything about getting men to do this, it's merely a technical detail) and that they don't need men for pleasure.

The villains are actually quite entertaining. Far better than the standard super-hero villains, they actually made Doctor Poison interesting for once. Danny Huston's General Ludendorff is magnificent scenery chewer, if a bit one note. His relationship with Dr. Poison is a nice one, you can tell they respect and care about each other and that they enjoy being super-villains. That said, we're not told or shown his relationship to Ares or why he has a specific gas which makes him super strong
- should have made him the Duke of Deception.

Ares himself ends up being David Thewlis, who is a high ranking British military leader or politician. While their final encounter he goes full power mad and CGI monster they make him a genuine threat which has power beyond what Zod had. Telekinesis, flight, teleportion, telepathic influence and plenty others. A true god. This Ares is actually an interesting portrayal since he absolutely hates mankind and wishes to remake Earth without them to start anew, very Lucifer. He doesn't even want to fight WW, instead he wants her to be rule with him and has fascinating arguments for why she should be his ally and that humanity deserves to rot. Best DC villain by far. Did not expect that much depth, it's what Zod should have been. As a physical threat he rocks WW hard, nearly kills or injures her a few times. He's not easy to beat. She only is able to beat him by getting a second wind after Steve Trevor sacrifices himself.

Harry Dresden on
GvzbgulArmorocDark Raven X
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Posts

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Thor and The First Avenger were essentially first drafts for this movie. Patty simply did away with the kinks in those stories, while merging them with WW's mythology.

    There are some unanswered questions: like Diana's magic gauntlets - we're not given any information about what they are or why they're intrinsic to her. She simply has them on one day while training, then is able to tap into them to create a forcefield (which is partially shown in the trailers) - which is implied to be a Big Thing by the bystanders yet never talked about with Diana. I assume that's one of the magical weapons Zeus left behind they're guarding. Maybe this got dropped in the editing room. It's not a big deal story wise, and it;s slight enough you won't pick up on the flaw until long after you've left the theater. Which is impressive. Patty Jenkins' pulled a Chris Nolan.

    This is the Wonder Woman film I've been waiting years for!

    ArmorocN1tSt4lker
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    It is pretty good.
    Chris Pine nude.
    Etta Candy is great (as she should be).
    Lotta weird sex talk? (sex as in the differences not the act, although that too)
    Also, WW and SR totes had sex.
    Wonder Woman beats up Iron Man.
    I loved loved loved the whole War/Peace stuff. Nailed what makes Wonder Woman great.
    I dunno about the Amazons, they were cool and some actual older actresses! Paradise Island felt a bit "Xena" (cheap/cheesy) but that isn't necessarily bad? I know some people who would be really excited to hear that.
    Surprisingly diverse cast. Obviously, I can't give full credit as the two leads are still white. But there was dedication to populating WW1 with PoC. Sikh soldiers. African American soldiers. An actual native American playing a native American! The kind of stuff other films would write off as "too difficult" to cast are done without breaking a sweat.
    Spike was great. Everyone was great.
    Chris Pine seduces Dr. Poison! It's great.

    I liked how flaws in the film weren't actually flaws! Eg, it seems like the film just shits all over what the Greek gods were like. So then when the twist comes it makes sense of the thought in your head that was thinking "hold on, that's not how the Greek gods worked."

    Or how Wonder Woman is dedicated to stopping The War to End All Wars and we know the entire time that it is not the last war and that killing a god isn't going to fix human problems. And the film then makes good on that! It turns it into the overall message of the film! I love it.

    Gvzbgul on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Gonna go with "Good" with some bad bits and some bits that come real close to being very very good but were failed to really work with.

    About 80% of the movie working is the chemistry between Gadot/Pine and both of their performances in general.

    Most of the secondary cast were fairly stiff with one or two exceptions.

    A very pleasant surprise overall.

    Gvzbgul
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Yeah, for me I'd say the film was ok to great. DC is great at a lot of stuff, casting, themes, music etc. And when those great bits are put in a film that isn't terrible it turns out pretty good! The ok bits didn't detract from the great bits but the great bits weren't quite enough to carry the rest of the film. Whereas with something like Batman V Superman, there might be some cool moments in it that were pretty much perfect, but the rest of the film is so bad that it drags everything down with it.

    I thought the secondary cast were pretty good, they were cartoon characters, but they were memorable. Comparing Wonder Woman's team with something like the guys Captain America teams up with in his film, well, it just isn't a contest. The most memorable character in Captain America's team was Bucky and that is damning with faint praise because Bucky is maybe one of the most forgettable characters ever. But the side characters in Wonder Woman were cartoons, and it was fun. I think they had little character arcs that might have gotten pruned in editing, as Spike's "can't shoot" problem just... disappeared.

    The German bad guy could have been better. And Dr Poison was a little... inward? Reserved?

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Thor and The First Avenger were essentially first drafts for this movie. Patty simply did away with the kinks in those stories, while merging them with WW's mythology.

    There are some unanswered questions: like Diana's magic gauntlets - we're not given any information about what they are or why they're intrinsic to her. She simply has them on one day while training, then is able to tap into them to create a forcefield (which is partially shown in the trailers) - which is implied to be a Big Thing by the bystanders yet never talked about with Diana. I assume that's one of the magical weapons Zeus left behind they're guarding. Maybe this got dropped in the editing room. It's not a big deal story wise, and it;s slight enough you won't pick up on the flaw until long after you've left the theater. Which is impressive. Patty Jenkins' pulled a Chris Nolan.

    This is the Wonder Woman film I've been waiting years for!

    She has them as a child and they grow with her; doesn't she/don't they? I assumed they were a manifestation of her divinity, like Ares' armor, after all was said and done. Is she ever without them?

  • CowSharkCowShark Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    With almost no frame of reference for Wonder Woman (I read Kingdom Come, I knew that Lynda Carter was Wonder Woman on TV, but don't know the plot of a single episode), I wonder if I like this movie a lot more than Batman/Superman movies because I don't have expectations about what/how I want Wonder Woman to be. I just know that her super powers include strength and durability and some magic weaponry. Like a rational mid-intensity Hulk with a magic lasso.

    But!

    As soon as the bedtime story was like, "and Zeus left us a weapon..." I was convinced it was Gal, and I really thought that at some point in the flick, the bracers would break apart and we'd have a great moment where the hero and the audience have a moment of realization, and she then just reflects projectiles with whatever limb seems appropriate at the time.

    The way her bare skin destroys metal, ground, rock, and asphalt in the final fight? Come on, rest of the movie. Get with it.

    CowShark on
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Thor and The First Avenger were essentially first drafts for this movie. Patty simply did away with the kinks in those stories, while merging them with WW's mythology.

    There are some unanswered questions: like Diana's magic gauntlets - we're not given any information about what they are or why they're intrinsic to her. She simply has them on one day while training, then is able to tap into them to create a forcefield (which is partially shown in the trailers) - which is implied to be a Big Thing by the bystanders yet never talked about with Diana. I assume that's one of the magical weapons Zeus left behind they're guarding. Maybe this got dropped in the editing room. It's not a big deal story wise, and it;s slight enough you won't pick up on the flaw until long after you've left the theater. Which is impressive. Patty Jenkins' pulled a Chris Nolan.

    This is the Wonder Woman film I've been waiting years for!

    She has them as a child and they grow with her; doesn't she/don't they? I assumed they were a manifestation of her divinity, like Ares' armor, after all was said and done. Is she ever without them?

    Not that I recall, they're first appear when adult Diana's first appearance. We're given no information about them. She's without them as a child IIRC. If you're right they never actually confirm anything. You're right that they should be divine but they literally don't say one word about them, even Diana never discusses WTF went on when she first made that shield. It's strange, would not be shocked if they cut that out while editing. The film is made too smoothly for a mistake to get like that past them, then again sometimes directors don't care about details (RE: Spielberg and Jurassic Park's sudden cliff sequence).
    CowShark wrote: »
    With almost no frame of reference for Wonder Woman (I read Kingdom Come, I knew that Lynda Carter was Wonder Woman on TV, but don't know the plot of a single episode), I wonder if I like this movie a lot more than Batman/Superman movies because I don't have expectations about what/how I want Wonder Woman to be. I just know that her super powers include strength and durability and some magic weaponry. Like a rational mid-intensity Hulk with a magic lasso.

    But!

    As soon as the bedtime story was like, "and Zeus left us a weapon..." I was convinced it was Gal, and I really thought that at some point in the flick, the bracers would break apart and we'd have a great moment where the hero and the audience have a moment of realization, and she then just reflects projectiles with whatever limb seems appropriate at the time.

    The way her bare skin destroys metal, ground, rock, and asphalt in the final fight? Come on, rest of the movie. Get with it.

    This film is solid primer for Wonder Woman and her mythology. It takes liberties, as adaptions do, but it is is very faithful.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    She has them as a child and they grow with her; doesn't she/don't they? I assumed they were a manifestation of her divinity, like Ares' armor, after all was said and done. Is she ever without them?

    Not that I recall, they're first appear when adult Diana's first appearance. We're given no information about them. She's without them as a child IIRC. If you're right they never actually confirm anything. You're right that they should be divine but they literally don't say one word about them, even Diana never discusses WTF went on when she first made that shield. It's strange, would not be shocked if they cut that out while editing. The film is made too smoothly for a mistake to get like that past them, then again sometimes directors don't care about details (RE: Spielberg and Jurassic Park's sudden cliff sequence).

    Even young scamp Diana absolutely was wearing her bracers. I remember snarking a bit about it.

    Also, whoever cast young Diana did an amazing job. That girl was amazing and reacted to being allowed to train like it was all the Christmas mornings ever, combined.

    ArbitraryDescriptorHarry DresdenGvzbgulFroThulhuDevlin_DragonusvalianceCaptainNemoKanaSo It GoesDracomicronHahnsoo1ArmorocSpoitTofystedethNobeardKetarkimeDark Raven XCarpyBobbleshoeboxjeddy
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Young Diana was the perfect amount of aborable.

    Not so adorable as to seem cartoonish, but just about as adorable as humanly possible.

    Harry DresdenGvzbgulFroThulhuvalianceCaptainNemoDracomicronHahnsoo1ObiFettArmorocN1tSt4lkerTofystedethNobeardKetarshoeboxjeddy
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    She has them as a child and they grow with her; doesn't she/don't they? I assumed they were a manifestation of her divinity, like Ares' armor, after all was said and done. Is she ever without them?

    Not that I recall, they're first appear when adult Diana's first appearance. We're given no information about them. She's without them as a child IIRC. If you're right they never actually confirm anything. You're right that they should be divine but they literally don't say one word about them, even Diana never discusses WTF went on when she first made that shield. It's strange, would not be shocked if they cut that out while editing. The film is made too smoothly for a mistake to get like that past them, then again sometimes directors don't care about details (RE: Spielberg and Jurassic Park's sudden cliff sequence).

    Even young scamp Diana absolutely was wearing her bracers. I remember snarking a bit about it.

    Also, whoever cast young Diana did an amazing job. That girl was amazing and reacted to being allowed to train like it was all the Christmas mornings ever, combined.

    Hmm. Intriguing. Any excuse to watch this movie again. :)

    Definitely agreed, maybe another Joey King has been found? She was
    young Talia
    in Dark Knight Rises.

    Harry Dresden on
    DevoutlyApathetic
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Alright, two scenes that stuck out as Not Good.

    First, a reminder that we're in the DC Cinematic Murderverse: Church Fight.

    This is the scene that starts with Diana going Over The Top of a WWI trench line and facing down the state of the art bullet deployment system at the time. She then presses on to the nearby village and punches a tank after giving a tank shell a desultory backhand as it was barely worth her attention. All of this? Pretty solid. The bit with the lasso looked super CGI-fake but it was pretty short and also kinda required for the character so it's all fine. No, my issue is the wrap up of this scene.

    Where she hides from a sniper.

    ...like three minutes before she walked up to a trench line in full give no fucks mode. Like 30 seconds before she gave no shits about a tank shell from like five feet. Now though? Now she hides under cover because of a single dude with a gun. Why? Because they want to do a nonsensical callback to the shield jump thing to end the action sequence on the huge visual of her exploding the top floor of a church.

    DC, do you remember what people complained about with Man of Steel and you rolled your eyes and made snide throwaway justifications about in BvS? Dianna is trying to stop the horrors of war and here and, to get one guy who should be no threat to her, she explodes this century old church. Complete disconnect between the action and the character motivations. You were doing so well with having her actually be heroic and give a shit about people!

    Without the Church explosion I would probably have overlooked this but it felt like a clear "Yep, this is still the Murderverse!" reminder. The shield jump doesn't make much sense in either scene it is in but it's a pretty standard script writing call back thing so I'd be fine overlooking that she probably didn't need the five foot boost before jumping SIXTY into the air if it weren't for the wanton destruction at the end of the scene.

    Ultimately this is a flaw at the ending of an other solid scene and is only really annoying in the context of the overall DC movie-verse. It draws some attention to things that would otherwise go without comment even if they were a bit silly. It really isn't that far out of line with standard action movie fare.

    Second: Where Ares Mansplains Diana's own feelings to her and Diana believes him?

    So Diana is holding a tank over her head, because the trailers needed a cool shot, and is getting ready to slam something. She sees up above Steve Trevor heroically sacrifice himself to destroy the evil super weapon that he won't even deploy against the evil bad folks who created it because Trevor is clearly a Good Guy. Ares explains that she is agreeing with him that humans all suck and she considers doing a murder.

    What? How the fuck does she watch the heroic sacrifice and suddenly think "Yeah, we should exterminate humanity!" is a good pitch? That is like the exact opposite feeling the scene is shot to provoke and not what the Diana we've been shown would have thought. It certainly wasn't what I was thinking at that moment.

    We also get that weird as fuck flashback to five minutes ago. At first I thought it was just "Diana finally understands what Travor was saying while she was shell shocked" which sorta made sense but she reacts differently! What this was just totally escapes me. We're left with Diana suddenly having time travel powers and she just went and changed the past or else the film just fucking lied to us without bothering to do anything about setting up an unreliable narrator. Neither are really good things.

    Mostly I'm disappointed here because partway through I thought they were gonna own the whole mansplaining thing and just have Diana end it with a tank smashing but sadly it was not to be.

    Finally I'm just going to note that these are both the sorts of complaints about how the movie could have been just that much better. Each of the scenes were otherwise functional and not utterly nonsensical. They wouldn't be out of place in a bog standard action movie and they certainly are no "Martha?" These are the complaints of how this movie could have really been great but only came close rather than really achieved it. They're only frustrating because it was so very close.

    italianranma
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Dianna is trying to stop the horrors of war and here and, to get one guy who should be no threat to her, she explodes this century old church.

    To be fair, a war torn gothic church probably looks like a gaudy eyesore to Diana.

    FroThulhuGolden YakDracomicronDedwrekkaBobbleshoeboxjeddy
  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    I thought the movie was fantastic all the way up until Ares started fighting. That entire sequence felt out of place, like Snyder had stepped in and directed that portion of the film or something. Why is Ares using lightning? Why is he fighting her directly, when he could just keep being the whisper on the wind and do what he's been doing? Diana is already super disillusioned with what she's doing. If the war goes on for another year or two because people keep being inspired to do awful shit, I'm pretty sure Wonder Woman goes back to Themyscira and doesn't come back.

    I just expected so many other smart directions with Ares. Giggle and fade away, telling her there will be another war. Tell her you've been trying to stop the war all along, but it's not fucking working, mankind is fucked, good luck! Manipulate the nearby Germans to start murdering each other for no reason. Don't show up at all, make Diana figure out who he is during the armistice talks. It was disappointing after going through scene after scene after scene of perfect characterization, acting, and plot, to just end on such a massive turd. Even the camera filter seemed to change to DCEU settings during that scene.


    Anyways, all that aside, I commented to a friend during the German invasion scene, when one of the Germans pierces the veil over Themyscira, to be lit up with colors and such, "Oh shit, he found a way out of the DCEU!"

    DevoutlyApatheticKanaSo It GoesLordSolarMachariusJayrichoSpoitkimeshoeboxjeddyitalianranma
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    @Harry Dresden

    Spoiler in the title? (Goddess)

    Edit: Or not because she is a Demigoddess. *adjusts glasses*

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    Yeah the Ares fight really fell flat for me, it was a blemish on an otherwise good movie.

    It doesn't drop the movie down too far for me, but I definitely felt like Ares actually being there and manipulating people took away from Steve's message near the end about how it's humans starting these wars and not some outside force.

    Battle.net: Spawnbroker#1471
    Steam: Spawnbroker
    Final Fantasy XIV: Spawn Broken
    Hahnsoo1Kayne Red Robe
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Yeah the Ares fight really fell flat for me, it was a blemish on an otherwise good movie.

    It doesn't drop the movie down too far for me, but I definitely felt like Ares actually being there and manipulating people took away from Steve's message near the end about how it's humans starting these wars and not some outside force.

    How so? Ares more or less underscored that point. Her taught them to kill better, he never made them do it. He said he was pushing for the armistice for lulz just to watch them break it.

    The fight though, yeah. I feel like they were stuck between having him pull out his go-go-gadget God powers, and still having him be able to coherrently fight with Diana without giving her the same. It didn't work great, but it was better than literally every Superman fight I've seen that did not include her. (Her share of the Doomsday fight was awesome)

    Edit: It also seemed kind of disjointed. Like a multi-stage boss fight where you have to mop up scrubs while the boss changes form. But not executed very fluidly.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    Yeah the Ares fight really fell flat for me, it was a blemish on an otherwise good movie.

    It doesn't drop the movie down too far for me, but I definitely felt like Ares actually being there and manipulating people took away from Steve's message near the end about how it's humans starting these wars and not some outside force.

    How so? Ares more or less underscored that point. Her taught them to kill better, he never made them do it. He said he was pushing for the armistice for lulz just to watch them break it.

    The fight though, yeah. I feel like they were stuck between having him pull out his go-go-gadget God powers, and still having him be able to coherrently fight with Diana without giving her the same. It didn't work great, but it was better than literally every Superman fight I've seen that did not include her. (Her share of the Doomsday fight was awesome)

    Yes but it gave her naive view of the situation some legs to stand on all over again. Sure, he didn't do much of anything, but it was still not nothing. So now she had both something to punch and something to blame.

    If anything that part would have made more sense if she somehow had the argument with Steve immediately after Ares taunts her about mankind. Like, Ares taunts her, she gets mad, he leaves, and then she yells at Steve for a bit. Then Ares can come back and do whatever, or, frankly, just not bother her again until/if Diana manages to stop being mad about it.

    ArbitraryDescriptor
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Thawmus wrote: »
    Yeah the Ares fight really fell flat for me, it was a blemish on an otherwise good movie.

    It doesn't drop the movie down too far for me, but I definitely felt like Ares actually being there and manipulating people took away from Steve's message near the end about how it's humans starting these wars and not some outside force.

    How so? Ares more or less underscored that point. Her taught them to kill better, he never made them do it. He said he was pushing for the armistice for lulz just to watch them break it.

    The fight though, yeah. I feel like they were stuck between having him pull out his go-go-gadget God powers, and still having him be able to coherrently fight with Diana without giving her the same. It didn't work great, but it was better than literally every Superman fight I've seen that did not include her. (Her share of the Doomsday fight was awesome)

    Yes but it gave her naive view of the situation some legs to stand on all over again. Sure, he didn't do much of anything, but it was still not nothing. So now she had both something to punch and something to blame.

    If anything that part would have made more sense if she somehow had the argument with Steve immediately after Ares taunts her about mankind. Like, Ares taunts her, she gets mad, he leaves, and then she yells at Steve for a bit. Then Ares can come back and do whatever, or, frankly, just not bother her again until/if Diana manages to stop being mad about it.

    As awkward as that flashback was (with it being two different versions), I wonder if they originally filmed it that way?

    Thawmuskime
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    I think the Justice League Unlimited episode "Hawk and Dove" did a better job with Ares. That Ares had a similar plot. He sold weapons to both sides of a war and eventually gave one side the Annihilator armor, which was literally powered by hatred and violence. But Ares wasn't defeated in a big battle, he was defeated when the two sides were convinced to put down their weapons, taking away the Annihilator's power.

    That episode also added a bit more nuance to both sides. It tried to show how both sides had legitimate grievances but brutal nature of war inevitably leads to escalation. It was about how just trying to hit back harder will lead to everyone dying and the only way peace can truly be achieved is if people are willing to step back.

    valianceDracomicronitalianranma
  • JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    So this movie was great

    I think it really benefited from having a woman director, though I'm sure someone that isn't me can better explain why

    Spoilery thoughts
    Antiope was a badass, and an awesome secondary parental figure for Diana

    I really like this version of Ares. He's like half classic, half Azzarello. Speaking of, I saw his name in the credits, so that was probably on purpose.
    The classic Ares, complete with spiky armor, somehow didn't end up feeling cheesy

    I also appreciate not killing Dr. Poison

    Also WWI was of course the perfect setting, because it is the best combo of "morally ambiguous" / "why is this happening?" while still being familiar but still allowing for things like charging into battle on horseback

    Best version of Steve Trevor yet, mostly by being both the first one I don't hate and also not being just Steve Rogers

    Gal Gadot absolutely nailed it; the trailers don't do her performance justice

    To sum up, for me this definiely edges out Captain America: The First Avenger, in no small part by not relegating the action to a montage

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    The scene of the Gods and origin of man and the Amazons makes me a want an animated film done in a neoclassical style.

    This film was almost soupy, but it rides the line and delivers on a great characterization of a God on earth wanting to do good.

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  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    I wonder what that mythology means for the rest of the DCEU. Did the Greek gods literally create humanity? As in, there were no humans before the Greek gods and all other religions are wrong?

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I wonder what that mythology means for the rest of the DCEU. Did the Greek gods literally create humanity? As in, there were no humans before the Greek gods and all other religions are wrong?

    It really felt like the Murderverse execs doing everything they could to make sure no silly non-trademarkable characters show up again anytime soon.

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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    If Justice League Dark includes John Constantine then the Abrahamic god and satan exist.

    DC comics as whole basically says every religion is correct.

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  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    Just saw Captain America but Better and a Lady, pretty great stuff.
    I wonder what that mythology means for the rest of the DCEU. Did the Greek gods literally create humanity? As in, there were no humans before the Greek gods and all other religions are wrong?

    Well, Hippolyta does say it's just a story, though the gods themselves are clearly real so there's obviously some grains of truth to it.

    FYI, in DC comics, the Greek gods are one pantheon of many, other pantheons exist too, and the Greeks are one of the few that avoided being annihilated in a big god war that resulted in the creation of the New Gods, of which DCEU big bad Darkseid is one. So that might figure into things as well.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    I enjoyed the movie a lot.
    • Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman is one of my favourite superheroes in the movies right now, tied with Chris Evans' Captain America. She does naive, tough, smart, badass, and caring with equal ease. Great performance. I want more Wonder Woman.
    • Chris Pine played the typical Chris Pine character. Funny, capable, cocky, smart, etc.
    • Most of the supporting cast was great.
    • The gala felt like s weird change of pace.
    • The scene with the sniper in the church was stupid.
    • The culmination of the Ares plot was muddled and didn't fit with the rest of the movie.

    How I think that the Ares plot should have resolved (and yes, I realize that it diverges a bit from the comics):
    Ares, acting as the British general, acts in the interest of peace, wanting an end to the slaughter. He talks about how pointless and senseless the war was, how when he was young he thought that war was the greatest of all pursuits, but that he's grown older and wiser. The movie makes it clear that he supports the mission to destroy the toxic gas, but he's very concerned with ensuring the armistice goes through.

    At the end of the movie, Diana kills the German general. The war ends. Dr. Poison is taken prisoner. Diana visits Dr. Poison in her cell, intending to interrogate and kill her for what she did, blaming her for Steve's death. The British general arrives while Diana is trying to decide whether or not to kill the Doctor. He says that he won't stop her, that he understands. But he was in her position once, a long time ago, and he regrets that choice.

    Diana realizes that the general is Ares. She asks him why he pretended to want peace. He says he wasn't pretending. Diana realizes that Ares has changed. She decides to show mercy to him, and they don't fight.
    But it's the Murderverse, so I suppose some things are inevitable.

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  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    I enjoyed the movie a lot.
    • Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman is one of my favourite superheroes in the movies right now, tied with Chris Evans' Captain America. She does naive, tough, smart, badass, and caring with equal ease. Great performance. I want more Wonder Woman.
    • Chris Pine played the typical Chris Pine character. Funny, capable, cocky, smart, etc.
    • Most of the supporting cast was great.
    • The gala felt like s weird change of pace.
    • The scene with the sniper in the church was stupid.
    • The culmination of the Ares plot was muddled and didn't fit with the rest of the movie.

    How I think that the Ares plot should have resolved (and yes, I realize that it diverges a bit from the comics):
    Ares, acting as the British general, acts in the interest of peace, wanting an end to the slaughter. He talks about how pointless and senseless the war was, how when he was young he thought that war was the greatest of all pursuits, but that he's grown older and wiser. The movie makes it clear that he supports the mission to destroy the toxic gas, but he's very concerned with ensuring the armistice goes through.

    At the end of the movie, Diana kills the German general. The war ends. Dr. Poison is taken prisoner. Diana visits Dr. Poison in her cell, intending to interrogate and kill her for what she did, blaming her for Steve's death. The British general arrives while Diana is trying to decide whether or not to kill the Doctor. He says that he won't stop her, that he understands. But he was in her position once, a long time ago, and he regrets that choice.

    Diana realizes that the general is Ares. She asks him why he pretended to want peace. He says he wasn't pretending. Diana realizes that Ares has changed. She decides to show mercy to him, and they don't fight.
    But it's the Murderverse, so I suppose some things are inevitable.

    I actually do think a more benign Ares would've been cool. That run of Wonder Woman where he's kind've a good guy was pretty awesome, plus there was this amazing story in the Injustice comic (which despite being based on a video game's shit story is totally great and a source of awesome one-shot stories) where the past of Ares was explored, and he was originally the God of Heroes and was harping on Zeus to lead the Greek gods into the God War I mentioned that spawned the New Gods, but Zeus kept chickening out and finally got pissed at Ares calling him out on it and he turned Ares into the God of War, basically cursing Ares with a porfolio that forced him to watch his cherished mortal heroes fed into the meat grinder of war forever.

    I still like an Ares that thinks humans are no good and just wants to use war to wipe them for a greater good, and that's more interesting than Ares in other depictions where he's fueled by war and just wants it for his own sake. Not that that wasn't cool a few times in the animated versions, but its kind've shallow.

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  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    A big problem with Ares is that there's basically no reason for him to fight Wonder Woman. As soon as Wonder Woman showed up, Ares could have just left. Wonder Woman wasn't going to stop humans from fighting. She might stop the poison gas. She might help one side to victory, but she's not doing anything to end the hatred between the two sides. That animosity will boil up and erupt into war again and Ares will be there to sell his weapons.

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  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    I thought the Ares stuff was rad, myself.

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  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Just came back. I definitely really, really liked the first half of the movie, and that feeling faded slowly over the course of the second half. I'm still processing and assembling my thoughts on it, but one thing that stuck out was that I hated how it felt like they used the romance (which I wasnt a big fan of in the first place) to almost reframe the movie at the very end so that Chris Pine was the main character and the culmination of Wonder Woman's arc was a side thing that was also going on.

    Like, alright movie, I came here for Wonder Woman, if the title of the movie was Captain Steve Trevor I probably wouldn't have shown up.

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  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    I learned an important lesson from this film

    Throwing lightning at descendants of Zeus is a bad idea.

    I did like the bit that basically had Ares with one half of Zeus powers (lightning bolts) and Diana the other half (Aegis)

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    I thought the Ares stuff was rad, myself.

    Ares is a difficult character to get right, and despite his flaws as delved into upthread I thought that did a great job. I preferred him when he fought Diana in his mortal, gentleman guise. He had such style.

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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I liked Ares, I just thought he was more interesting as a polite English gentleman. Like, especially with the setting being WW1, the idea that the true monsters aren't out on the battlefield, they're largely boring men sitting in elegant offices pushing pieces across a board while they drink tea works great. Ares begins his scene not as some sort of warlord, but as a cerebral dude who's making a point of not fighting himself, of not forcing anyone into anything, but instead merely helping humanity with new formulas, new tools to destroy itself with. Early on Dianna's trying to take swings at him and he merely fades away, and that felt thematically right on, because how can you fight the god of war, anyway? Once he gets all armored up and it turns into another DBZ super power fight, well, I still liked that at least it's still them largely arguing about human nature - and it was fun how Ares literally has telekinesis over the tools of war itself, tank treads, grenades, etc - but it would've felt a lot more thematically satisfying if Ares didn't die, he merely had to retreat. And then establish that as Dianna's driving force, opposing Ares, because then Ares ends up as less of an enemy to be punched, and more of the darkness of human nature itself, you can oppose it but never permanently defeat it.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    I hope Ares comes back, they should have had enough leeway in there to let him come back. Dude's hard to kill.

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  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    For me, Ares rode the cheesy line. It was a lovely mix of silly and serious, which is something I treasure in films. A middle aged British bureaucrat leaping about and throwing lightning in a 90s metal suit of armour. I quite liked it but it definitely could bug people. Especially his ridiculous mustache. Which I thought was wonderful.

    Another thing I liked about the film was it's lack of Extended Universe stuff. There was the intro and end, but we didn't have a million scenes in-between that do nothing but introduce plot points for future films (or if we did, they were seamless and I didn't notice them, so kudos if that's the case). I don't think Ares is coming back, as the film felt self contained.

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  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Yeah there is maybe a draft of the story somewhere where Ares/Germany is using some Apokolipitcan artifact to do something (in much the same way as the Cosmic Cube was used in Captain America 1). As it is, keeping the solo efforts very self contained is a good step I think, too far the other way and you can end up with an Iron Man 2.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    I don't think Ares is coming back, as the film felt self contained.

    The film being self contained doesn't mean they couldn't do something with him later on, they went well out of their way to show he's immensely difficult to kill. The last they thought he was dead - he wasn't. Plus, he's a literal God. This is an out they haven't had with previous villains.

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  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    I saw a late night showing of WW and have now slept on it. My verdict is that it was a fun movie. I certainly enjoyed it.

    * The Themescia stuff was really well done.
    * The middle fight scene is probably one of the best Superhero fights ever.
    * The acting was solid.
    * I'm sold on Gal Godot as being Wonder Woman.
    * The use of the Lasso of Truth was most excellent

    Here's the thing though; I'm not entirely sure it was a good movie. As much as I liked the above, there was also stand out bad for me.
    * A number of poor editing choices, both during fight scenes and dialogue scenes, that pulled me out of the movie.
    * There was some really bad and obvious blue screen effects in the second half of the movie.
    * A few times it felt like they were trying to beat me over the head with story points.
    * A lot of the second half had me going "Hey, its Captain America: First Avenger!"
    * At no point was Wonder Woman (the character) ever actually in danger. She never struggled, never showed exhaustion, physical pain, or signs of weakness. And as such...
    * The Ares fight had no weight to it. There was never any doubt that WW would win, because there was never any point in the movie where it appeared she could ever lose.

    And, finally, I'm not entirely sure that WW was the hero of her own movie. It really feels like Steve Trevor was the hero and driving force of everything, and Diana was just tagging along since he was going where she wanted to. Really, the only part that Wonder Woman drove once Steve showed up in the movie was the middle battle scene that was across the trenches, which was the most awesome part of the movie, I'll admit.

    So, in the end I was entertained. I'm glad I went. It's a huge step up in quality for the DC movies. But I think they still have quite a bit of work to do.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited June 2017

    Patty Jenkins will be back to direct Wonder Woman II.

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  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    It felt very much like the final Ares fight was never originally intended to be in the film and it was tacked on due to studio inteference or something. The whole film was building up to Ares being behind everything and then Steve Trevor tells her it's not Ares, it's humanity that's doing this. Then Ares shows up to taunt her and tell her no really, I'm just giving them ideas and selling them weapons, they're doing all this themselves.

    Then it's immediately walked back and those arguments lose all of their weight when he physically appears and they have a huge fight.

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