Options

Can [Fat Acceptance] Be Positive?

2456727

Posts

  • Options
    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    The line our society uses to say it's "okay" to shame someone for being fat is far higher for men than it is for women. This means it's not hard at all to find examples of women being attacked for their weight while you have to go out of your way to find men being attacked for their weight. My guess is that a man would have to be 400 pounds or more to get anywhere close to the level of shaming a 200 pound woman gets.

  • Options
    Donkey KongDonkey Kong Putting Nintendo out of business with AI nips Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    I don't think I have ever seen a male model version of what is in the op. I'm not quite sure what to infer from that. I think I saw a big and tall store advertisement once?

    Because in media, heavy guys don't even have to be particularly attractive to be funny/charming/dateworthy.

    The whole sitcom trope of "schlub is married to impossibly attractive wife" has been a thing since The Honeymooners

    it's basically the only shtick Kevin James knows


    and it's not a good thing! it instills a lot of shitty expectations on men and women both! stereotypes are always harmful even if they appear positive

    That's not quite the same thing though. Fat and out of shape male bodies don't get much play as being attractive either. Society is much KINDER to fat guys, that's true, and you're right, they're still funny or charming or datable. But they're not sexy. Not ever. They're still only desirable in spite of their fatness.

    Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
  • Options
    credeikicredeiki Registered User regular
    credeiki wrote: »
    but men's bodies are a complete non-issue?

    Because on a societal level, imagine what happens anytime guys speak up about their appearance and comfort/feelings regarding there of. Calling it a 'feminist double standard,' is a joke, of course, but y'know, reddit. Fat guys get to be the subject of humor and that's it and that's not a '-ism' bias that's the way society as a whole treats guys.

    This community isn't reddit, though, and we have a lot of guys here who want to talk about issues of body image and weight as well as women who do. Even though it's normally an issue linked with judgement/acceptance of women's bodies, I would hope that here we might be more egalitarian in our approach, even though that means consciously bucking a societal trend.

    Steam, LoL: credeiki
  • Options
    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    I don't know man this stuff is complicated. I just don't want everyone to die from diabetes at age 50

    Do you think fat people don't know that they're fat?
    Do you think fat people don't care that they're fat?
    Do you think fat people need you to tell them how they can improve their life?

    If you answered yes to any of those, then you're delusional.

    I assume you answered no. In which case, telling someone they're fat, or they're unhealthy, or even giving them unsolicited advice does more harm than good.

    There is literally no reason to ever tell someone that they're fat unless you mean to belittle them.

  • Options
    rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    The line our society uses to say it's "okay" to shame someone for being fat is far higher for men than it is for women. This means it's not hard at all to find examples of women being attacked for their weight while you have to go out of your way to find men being attacked for their weight. My guess is that a man would have to be 400 pounds or more to get anywhere close to the level of shaming a 200 pound woman gets.

    Yeah, it's worth noting that George Clooney is obese.

  • Options
    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    That's not quite the same thing though. Fat and out of shape male bodies don't get much play as being attractive either. Society is much KINDER to fat guys, that's true, and you're right, they're still funny or charming or datable. But they're not sexy. Not ever. They're still only desirable in spite of their fatness.

    generic mistreatment of the unattractive is interesting because if we were to explicitly frame it as what it is - explicit discrimination, viewed as implicitly virtuous by almost all people, against others on grounds of their appearance only - it seems like something that is clearly, obviously, wrong. but in general we seem vastly less interested in the mistreatment of people who are less attractive - and in fact we actively view it as funny or justified, in most cases. and this is compounded in fiction to an absurd degree.

    i recall reading a fascinating series of case studies by a psychologist where he interviewed people who were really unattractive. its pretty much the most miserable shit you can possibly imagine; every single aspect of their life was blighted. even straightforward social interaction was close to nonexistent. there will come a movement eventually to deal with this, but this is so deep-coded in how we assign value and interest in our interactions i would be astonished if it ever went away

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    To a point, yes, being fat and being healthy are not directly or strongly linked. But eventually there comes a point where you fat cells become so large that they disrupt hormone levels, metabolic function, liver function, etc. I suspect that threshold is highly variable from person to person, but there are weights that would be unhealthy for any human being. If I had to toss out a number that I could feel confident with, I'd say nobody is capable of being healthy at 500 pounds.

    I know for me, having lost a tremendous amount of weight WHILE undergoing treatment for metabolic, liver, and thyroid disorders, the threshold sits around 260 pounds. That's around the weight where, without exercise, my liver stopped struggling, my testosterone and estrogen normalized, my blood sugar stabilized, and I showed no resistance to insulin. I've got blood tests and medical records to prove it. That's also pretty heavy still. I wouldn't be surprised if my body copes with fat better than most. My genetics bias me to being large: my great grandmother was large, my mom is large, etc.

    I dunno where this all fits into the greater conversation here.

    This is an interesting point that was brought up in the diabetes thread we had a year or so ago. Somebody found a study suggesting that many weight-related ills are caused by enlarged fat cells and that people at the same weight but with more individual fat cells are healthier. They showed this by injecting obese people suffering from insulin resistance, high blood pressure, and other problems with a substance that encouraged their bodies to grow new fat cells.

    The results were that each person gained an average of eight pounds, but their health improved all around, most likely because the new fat cells took some of the stress off the old ones.

    It's very interesting, really. For some people this kind of treatment might be really beneficial, but still ideally a last-ditch option.

  • Options
    PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    According to what I read years ago and never updated since, mortality for the first bracket of overweight featured no disadvantage whatsoever in comparison to the idealweight-bracket.

  • Options
    Donkey KongDonkey Kong Putting Nintendo out of business with AI nips Registered User regular
    I would say the main difference between being a fat guy and being a fat girl is that fat women have shitty things said to them. Or sometimes weird and creepy shit by guys who think they can get away with it because "she's fat, she'll just be flattered".

    Fat guys on the other hand are invisible. Full on do not exist. They are not helped at stores. They don't get smiles on the street. They are not flirted with or extended any courtesy. It's hard to express the magnitude and frigidity of the force field that is around them at all times.

    I won't claim it's easier or harder, it's just different and possibly a little less overt than what happens to women.

    Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
  • Options
    Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Atomika wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    I don't think I have ever seen a male model version of what is in the op. I'm not quite sure what to infer from that. I think I saw a big and tall store advertisement once?

    Because in media, heavy guys don't even have to be particularly attractive to be funny/charming/dateworthy.

    The whole sitcom trope of "schlub is married to impossibly attractive wife" has been a thing since The Honeymooners

    it's basically the only shtick Kevin James knows


    and it's not a good thing! it instills a lot of shitty expectations on men and women both! stereotypes are always harmful even if they appear positive

    https://youtu.be/PnflT0t7wtw#t=04m33s

    EDIT: Time code didn't work, relevant bit is at 4:33

    Giggles_Funsworth on
  • Options
    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    According to what I read years ago and never updated since, mortality for the first bracket of overweight featured no disadvantage whatsoever in comparison to the idealweight-bracket.

    It's worth noting that the first bracket is low enough overweight that most people probably won't notice unless your build really shows fat easily.

  • Options
    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I believe some people misunderstand what fat acceptance means in a general way. (though certainly there are more and less radical versions of body acceptance, as you'll find with any belief system).

    To put it as broadly as possible: you are not a doctor. You are not privy to my medical records. To look at me and say, "yep, you're unhealthy" and also to feel the need to tell me that I should lose weight, those things are problems that are unique to the medical condition of obesity. Or at least, unique in that they're considered acceptable behavior.

    Like sure, there are crazy people out there who will look at a cancer patient and say, "wow, you really aren't treating your body right. If you'd stop the chemo and just drink beet juice at every meal, you'd be fine." But when someone does that it's pretty universally accepted that they are wrong and bad and that they should be ashamed of themselves. But if you do that exact thing to a fat person, everyone else will make excuses for the beet juice drinker - "Oh, they're just trying to help" and "Well, being overweight is massively unhealthy, that fat person needed to know that."

    The fact of the matter is, research is more and more showing that things like how often you exercise are much larger contributors to your health than your weight, and even beyond that one data point there are multiple, complex contributors to health in general. A fat person who exercises 5 times a week is going to be more healthy than a skinny person who never exercises. Weight is not the end-all, be-all of health. The reason we treat it as if it's the ultimate decider of health has nothing to do with our concerns towards health, and everything to do with beauty standards.

    There's also of course the many, many, many studies that indicate that long-term weight loss is impossible. People always want to argue this point with me because they have an aunt that has kept the weight off for 20 years, or they themselves have kept weight off for 25 years or whatever. Those comments have two problems with them: One, anecdotal data is not scientific. You need a sample size larger than one or two people to be able to go up against scientific data that states otherwise. One or two people is, in data terms, a statistical zero. The other more important issue is that 25 years is only 1/4 of a human life. Most of the time when people share these anecdotes, the amount of time is much lower than that - 15 years is the standard (and hey! I kept weight off for 15 years, too, before I gained it all back and then some!) "Long term" in terms of a human life means for the rest of your life. Find me someone who has kept weight off for 60,70 or 80 years, after having lost more than 10 pounds in youth. Even if you knew one such person, it's still a statistic zero. But I've never even heard of such a person.

    Knowing that information, I come to two conclusions: The first is that obesity really is, and needs start being to be treated as, an actual disease. In time, as we come to understand the human body better, we may come up with real treatments to treat or cure this disease. But the treatment of telling people they are lazy and they just need to exercise more to cure their disease is not helping, it's only making things worse. Because every time you take of 20lbs and keep it off for 15 years, eventually, because of the way the human body works, you not only gain that weight back but you add an additional 10 or 20 lbs. The more diets you try, the more often you take that weight off, the more weight you'll eventually gain. As long as doctors and the general public believe the cure is a moralistic one, we'll never get a real cure or treatment.

    The other conclusion is that fat acceptance is the only logical reaction to knowing all this. Body acceptance not an attempt to laud being overweight as a virtue, any more than a person who accepts themselves as having celiac disease or crohn's disease is trying to aggrandize themselves. Either you accept the disease you have and live your life with as much happiness as you can, or you refuse to accept it and continue to abuse and hate your body. I know which route I took, and I see nothing praiseworthy in the second path.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    worth noting that muscle mass acts as metabolic tissue and improves insulin function

    so, specifically, when talking about diet and exercise for insulin function we are interested in hypertrophic resistance training above all else

    I think this came up in the diabetes thread, too. Isn't part of the idea that, if losing weight can cause a person's metabolism to slow, building and maintaining muscle can raise calorie consumption and aid in weight loss?

  • Options
    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    worth noting that muscle mass acts as metabolic tissue and improves insulin function

    so, specifically, when talking about diet and exercise for insulin function we are interested in hypertrophic resistance training above all else

    I think this came up in the diabetes thread, too. Isn't part of the idea that, if losing weight can cause a person's metabolism to slow, building and maintaining muscle can raise calorie consumption and aid in weight loss?

    well, its a bit more complex than that, but the rough summary is that cardio for weight loss is pretty disastrous for a number of reasons and virtually never works. strength training functions better for a whole bunch of reasons including, as you note, that you gain an overall higher bmr in the future

    obF2Wuw.png
  • Options
    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    Cambiata on
    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
  • Options
    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a woman who seems to be weirdly colder than everyone else, you're looking at a woman who is eating less food than her body actually wants her to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    interestingly there is an argument that this is also because when the standard calculations for room temperature etc were done they ignored women entirely and simply examined what men found comfortable eg

    https://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v5/n12/full/nclimate2741.html

    this is a running theme in recent science...

    obF2Wuw.png
  • Options
    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    ehh. you linked a meta study about the thing i was asking about.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • Options
    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a woman who seems to be weirdly colder than everyone else, you're looking at a woman who is eating less food than her body actually wants her to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    Holy shit, that makes....

    Wow.

    One of the ladies I work with has become a p good friend and she is not overweight, excercizes regularly, but eats all the time. All the other ladies in the office complain about the cold except her. She complains as often as I do that it's hot. She's also totally asexual and is unconcerned with being attractive. She does what she needs to in order to maintain her healthy self unconcerned with being thought of as beautiful.

    While the other ladies who complain about the cold are constantly talking about losing weight. None of them need to, but it's on their minds as often as it's on mine.

  • Options
    TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Wait, is fat acceptance a thing? Like, outside of Tumblr and the fat woman from Glee?

    Well, one of the things that is happening now is an lobbying group trying to get rid of Michelle Obama's school nutrition regulations because of course they are.

    And losing weight is possible. If 4channers on /fit/ can do it, then everybody else too. Hell, I lost about 55+ lbs after college by changing my dietary habits and exercise (which I need to get on track again BTW).

    TryCatcher on
  • Options
    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
  • Options
    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    There's an episode of The Brain Scoop where the host, Emily, is speaking with one of the people from the museum (Can't remember the name, but he was male) about their technology, and one of the things was an infrared camera. When seen through the camera, Emily's hand was much, much bluer than his hand. Exact same environment, but was significantly colder.

    I mean, data set of 1 and all, but there's also the cold feet complaints, etc. I think women's bodies are actually colder and it's not an illusion due to nerve density.

  • Options
    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Nova_C wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    There's an episode of The Brain Scoop where the host, Emily, is speaking with one of the people from the museum (Can't remember the name, but he was male) about their technology, and one of the things was an infrared camera. When seen through the camera, Emily's hand was much, much bluer than his hand. Exact same environment, but was significantly colder.

    I mean, data set of 1 and all, but there's also the cold feet complaints, etc. I think women's bodies are actually colder and it's not an illusion due to nerve density.

    something something, variances in average amounts of fat (a very efficient insulator) and where the body tends to store it, variances in the body's average basal rate, variances in how much energy the body tends to expend in warming limbs versus warming the core, something something?

    I'm already way out of my depth here :3

    kedinik on
    I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
  • Options
    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Also, that someone is more sensitive to temperature doesn't mean their sensory experiences are illusory

    kedinik on
    I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
  • Options
    PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    I don't think I have ever seen a male model version of what is in the op. I'm not quite sure what to infer from that. I think I saw a big and tall store advertisement once?

    Because in media, heavy guys don't even have to be particularly attractive to be funny/charming/dateworthy.

    The whole sitcom trope of "schlub is married to impossibly attractive wife" has been a thing since The Honeymooners

    it's basically the only shtick Kevin James knows


    and it's not a good thing! it instills a lot of shitty expectations on men and women both! stereotypes are always harmful even if they appear positive

    That's not quite the same thing though. Fat and out of shape male bodies don't get much play as being attractive either. Society is much KINDER to fat guys, that's true, and you're right, they're still funny or charming or datable. But they're not sexy. Not ever. They're still only desirable in spite of their fatness.

    I know I've seen televised examples of this being explicitly untrue, in the mists of prehistory. Where the hell did I see that?

  • Options
    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Wait, is fat acceptance a thing? Like, outside of Tumblr and the fat woman from Glee?

    Well, one of the things that is happening now is an lobbying group trying to get rid of Michelle Obama's school nutrition regulations because of course they are.

    And losing weight is possible. If 4channers on /fit/ can do it, then everybody else too. Hell, I lost about 55 lbs after college by changing my dietary habits and exercise (which I need to get on track again BTW).

    Yes it's a thing. While it's not about encouraging people to be overweight it would certainly encourage not referring to someone as "the fat woman from Glee."

    And while it's possible for people to lose weight, it's routinely demonstrated that it's difficult to keep the weight off.

    Finally, it's a bit ridiculous that you're using different web platforms for what is and isn't common.

  • Options
    Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    I would say the main difference between being a fat guy and being a fat girl is that fat women have shitty things said to them. Or sometimes weird and creepy shit by guys who think they can get away with it because "she's fat, she'll just be flattered".

    Fat guys on the other hand are invisible. Full on do not exist. They are not helped at stores. They don't get smiles on the street. They are not flirted with or extended any courtesy. It's hard to express the magnitude and frigidity of the force field that is around them at all times.

    I won't claim it's easier or harder, it's just different and possibly a little less overt than what happens to women.

    This has not been my experience at all but I can extrovert pretty hard and am generally affable.

  • Options
    Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    There's an episode of The Brain Scoop where the host, Emily, is speaking with one of the people from the museum (Can't remember the name, but he was male) about their technology, and one of the things was an infrared camera. When seen through the camera, Emily's hand was much, much bluer than his hand. Exact same environment, but was significantly colder.

    I mean, data set of 1 and all, but there's also the cold feet complaints, etc. I think women's bodies are actually colder and it's not an illusion due to nerve density.

    My girlfriend generally eats about the same as me and is routinely colder though. I don't think this is universal.

  • Options
    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    My comment was too broad, in that everything has a complexity behind it that can't really be summarized in one paragraph. But being on a constant diet train does make you feel colder because your metabolism goes down, seemingly permanently, every time you lose a significant amount of weight. Anecdotally I can say that my cold problems vanished once I stopped dieting permanently, but that's not evidence. I don't think I've ever seen a study of men's and women's sense of the cold or heat of a room that takes into account factors like whether either person has lost a significant amount of weight. I still see a fairly large corollary between women who are always cold and women who are always dieting, though, and I'm sticking with that hypothesis.

    Cambiata on
    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
  • Options
    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    like, am i missremembering the talk from various folks in the forum who are taking estrogen when it comes to nerve/blood vessel density in the skin?

    seemed like it was a thing a fair number of trans folk talked about. on estrogen, skin is more sensitive and bleeds more readily.

    that sure seems like it would result in individuals feeling colder.

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • Options
    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    kedinik wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    There's an episode of The Brain Scoop where the host, Emily, is speaking with one of the people from the museum (Can't remember the name, but he was male) about their technology, and one of the things was an infrared camera. When seen through the camera, Emily's hand was much, much bluer than his hand. Exact same environment, but was significantly colder.

    I mean, data set of 1 and all, but there's also the cold feet complaints, etc. I think women's bodies are actually colder and it's not an illusion due to nerve density.

    something something, variances in average amounts of fat (a very efficient insulator) and where the body tends to store it, variances in the body's average basal rate, variances in how much energy the body tends to expend in warming limbs versus warming the core, something something?

    I'm already way out of my depth here :3

    I don't think the cold problem has anything to do with how much fat you are storing, because when I was dieting I was still obese, just less obese than I might have been sans diet, and I was always colder than any naturally skinny person I know.

    Like I said, I'd love to see a study on a person's sense of cold taking into account factors like how much weight a person has lost, but I'm not in academia to do the study myself.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
  • Options
    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    redx wrote: »
    like, am i missremembering the talk from various folks in the forum who are taking estrogen when it comes to nerve/blood vessel density in the skin?

    seemed like it was a thing a fair number of trans folk talked about. on estrogen, skin is more sensitive and bleeds more readily.

    that sure seems like it would result in individuals feeling colder.

    I don't see how, not in absolute terms.

    Like, okay, they have temp sensitivity.

    Why would that make their hands feel cold to a man if they're not actually colder?

    Nova_C on
  • Options
    Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    My comment was too broad, in that everything has a complexity behind it that can't really be summarized in one paragraph. But being on a constant diet train does make you feel colder because your metabolism goes down, seemingly permanently, every time you lose a significant amount of weight. Anecdotally I can say that my cold problems vanished once I stopped dieting permanently, but that's not evidence. I don't think I've ever seen a study of men's and women's sense of the cold or heat of a room that takes into account factors like whether either person has lost a significant amount of weight. I still see a fairly large corollary between women who are always cold and women who are always dieting, though.

    Any time you're eating at a calorie deficit every single day your body's going to lower your metabolism to counter for it because it thinks you're starving.

    Which, I wasn't trying to undermine how awful that is that it's happening to anyone just saying it isn't a rule in my extremely limited experience. The other half of why I started gaining weight again is I moved in with my girlfriend and she's a super picky eater so my legume centric diet didn't work cooking for the both of us.

    I was experimenting with alternate day fasting for a few weeks before I got a sinus infection and secondary bronchitis and needed to eat daily to get better. It seemed promising. Read some stuff about how your metabolism speeds up during shorter fasting periods of they're broken up with normal or even slightly caloricly dense days. Found it easier than more fastidious methods of portion control though it isn't for everyone. I've always been a person that can forget to eat though, I don't get blood sugar drops or overly tired if it isn't an exercise day.

  • Options
    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Wait, is fat acceptance a thing? Like, outside of Tumblr and the fat woman from Glee?

    Well, one of the things that is happening now is an lobbying group trying to get rid of Michelle Obama's school nutrition regulations because of course they are.

    And losing weight is possible. If 4channers on /fit/ can do it, then everybody else too. Hell, I lost about 55+ lbs after college by changing my dietary habits and exercise (which I need to get on track again BTW).

    I lost about 60lbs at the height of my dieting days 10 years ago. Come back to me in 20, 30, 50 years and tell me you have maintained that weight loss. Science says it doesn't happen.

    Please understand I'm not saying this to discourage you or make you feel bad, but rather because facts like this are important to understand if we ever want to fix this problem permanently. Just like we used to believe that ulcers were caused by stress, until science discovered the bacteria that causes ulcers. I want to find a scientific cause that can be treated, and as a step in that direction we need to stop telling people that the have a disease because they're bad people.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    And losing weight is possible. If 4channers on /fit/ can do it, then everybody else too. Hell, I lost about 55+ lbs after college by changing my dietary habits and exercise (which I need to get on track again BTW).

    There are definitely people that manage to lose weight and keep it off. According to the Time magazine article I posted in the OP, though, most people regain at least some weight after about five and a half years.

    My aunt is one of those people. She probably weighed about 200 pounds or so for most of my life. She started a weight loss diet that was intense enough that by the next time I saw her about seven or so months later she looked nearly underweight. She had stopped eating out at all, even to places like Olive Garden, and weighed her food with a scale. She maintained that weight for five years. In the past year, though, she's started eating out again some and gained enough to be in the overweight (but probably not obese) BMI range.

    Thing is, when she was fat she was energetic and cheerful, when she was thin she seemed downright lethargic with a hushed voice, and now that she's gained some weight back she's acting like her old self again.

  • Options
    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    just as an aside - the metabolic damage hypothesis is contentious

    cf a useful review here - http://journals.ke-i.org/index.php/mra/article/view/908

    there is an interesting split in views here, although a lot of it seems to come down to some people having very highly reactive metabolisms which strongly upregulate NEAT when overfed and others much less so

    obF2Wuw.png
  • Options
    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Cambiata wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    My comment was too broad, in that everything has a complexity behind it that can't really be summarized in one paragraph. But being on a constant diet train does make you feel colder because your metabolism goes down, seemingly permanently, every time you lose a significant amount of weight. Anecdotally I can say that my cold problems vanished once I stopped dieting permanently, but that's not evidence. I don't think I've ever seen a study of men's and women's sense of the cold or heat of a room that takes into account factors like whether either person has lost a significant amount of weight. I still see a fairly large corollary between women who are always cold and women who are always dieting, though.

    I think there are lots of factors that back up your intuitions here

    Maybe most significantly, a diet puts the dieter's body into a famine state; they have less energy available, and they metabolize food more efficiently, and I think both of those factors lower the equilibrium temperature of their body

    kedinik on
    I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
  • Options
    Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    I am overweight, and have been most of my life, but I'm also a medical person and I see every day the debilitating effects of life-long obesity, especially as you get older

    My thoughts are:

    - Thin people, don't talk shit to fat people, they know what they look like and don't like it.
    - Fat people, being fat is unhealthy and dangerous to form an identity around, don't try to own it.
    - Hollywood, attractive women come in sizes other than size 2

    I'm going to call BS on this part for pretty much one reason only. Someones sense of self worth/self body image/level of attractiveness should not in anyway be tied to their health. Until we reach the point that someone is actively harming their health to achieve a certain look (which is far far more likely to be true for someone super skinny), then you should totally be able to love yourself and how you look even if you need to change in order to be healthier.

    In my mind it is akin to shaming a cancer patient for being bald. I mean how dare they try and own their look, don't they know it's just a symptom of a disease? How can you be proud of being bald if it's only happening because your sick?

    Which basically is just another way of saying health should not be part of social interactions, including ones that deal with attractiveness and sexuality. It seems as though the science is unclear right now, but even if we could conclusively prove that being fat is a huge health risk, it should still be something that is dealt with at the doctor's office, not in mainstream media.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • Options
    Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    My comment was too broad, in that everything has a complexity behind it that can't really be summarized in one paragraph. But being on a constant diet train does make you feel colder because your metabolism goes down, seemingly permanently, every time you lose a significant amount of weight. Anecdotally I can say that my cold problems vanished once I stopped dieting permanently, but that's not evidence. I don't think I've ever seen a study of men's and women's sense of the cold or heat of a room that takes into account factors like whether either person has lost a significant amount of weight. I still see a fairly large corollary between women who are always cold and women who are always dieting, though.

    I think there are lots of factors that back up your intuitions here

    Maybe most significantly, a diet puts the dieter's body into a famine state; they have less energy available, and they metabolize food more efficiently, and I think both of those factors lower the equilibrium temperature of their body

    What's wacky about the short term fasting is (in theory) it causes your body to burn more fat because that gives you more energy with which to find food and end the fast.

  • Options
    MillMill Registered User regular
    Honestly, I feel we as a society would be better served pushing for healthier diets and routines, which should not be confused with making people feel bad about their body image. I mean we have people that are skinny and unhealthy and that setup brings it's own health issues. I believe a push for making healthy food more accessible, unhealthy food less unhealthy (I'm looking you junk food industry and your obsession of throwing shit tons of unneeded crap into food) and more support to help people get into a reasonable exercise routine (seriously, fuck the 40 hour work week, that also seems to come with like 2.5-5.5 hours of commuting) would go a long way to helping people reach better body weight. I'm also not a fan of how our society seems to have one ideal for what everyone should strive for based on gender, which from what I understand isn't exactly health either.

    Hell, I feel shitty fat shaming, tends to distract from the real issues. Our society makes it really fucking hard to live a health life-style. The most accessible and cost efficient food is fucking terrible health wise and people have to devote tons of their time to a job and almost all of that time involves sitting on one's ass.

  • Options
    Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    The only time I've been successful (recently) at losing weight is April of last year when my GF dumped me with no warning (yes, I know, it wasn't sudden for her) and being fired for.. reasons. Dumb reasons.

    I went from 280 to like 250 in a few months but I was going days without eating. I'm back to 270 now but I could be 180* and feel down because I have zero self confidence anymore. People tell me to just go out and meet people, not realizing that's like asking an art major to design a rocket. If I had the skill to do it, I would.

    I'm super lonely and my job is awful/stressful and that makes it super hard to work out. I also suffer from depression and anxiety pretty heavily.

    I'll be honest, I've never seen an obese woman I've found attractive. Like, on a straight physical level. That being said I don't find myself disgusted by fat people and have a lot of sympathy since losing weight is really hard.

    * My lightest at 6' 7".

This discussion has been closed.