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Can [Fat Acceptance] Be Positive?

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    As far as health goes, I believe everyone would be better served if what was taught and socially stressed is that maintenance exercise is prescribed for everyone, instead of exercise with the goal of losing weight. If you get into the habit of exercising you generally find that you don't lose a lot of weight from it (unless you do something hardcore like p90x for maintenance exercise), but you do find that you both look at feel healthier. Pressuring people to be skinny doesn't make people healthier, especially when the body image includes things like perfectly rippled abs that can only be maintained by keeping your body deliberately unhealthy. But society doesn't have a lot of strangers coming up to ripped abs people to suggest ways that they can be more healthy, the way we do with overweight people.

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    Honestly, I feel we as a society would be better served pushing for healthier diets and routines, which should not be confused with making people feel bad about their body image. I mean we have people that are skinny and unhealthy and that setup brings it's own health issues. I believe a push for making healthy food more accessible, unhealthy food less unhealthy (I'm looking you junk food industry and your obsession of throwing shit tons of unneeded crap into food) and more support to help people get into a reasonable exercise routine (seriously, fuck the 40 hour work week, that also seems to come with like 2.5-5.5 hours of commuting) would go a long way to helping people reach better body weight. I'm also not a fan of how our society seems to have one ideal for what everyone should strive for based on gender, which from what I understand isn't exactly health either.

    Hell, I feel shitty fat shaming, tends to distract from the real issues. Our society makes it really fucking hard to live a health life-style. The most accessible and cost efficient food is fucking terrible health wise and people have to devote tons of their time to a job and almost all of that time involves sitting on one's ass.

    We need a lot better mental health support. A lot of eating, I know I'm guilty of this in particular, is stress induced. It's a coping mechanism.

    We also need to figure out a way to handle 2 earners being needed to maintain a household because that's definitely not conducive to a "cook every night" as a routine either, most people don't want to eat at 8:00pm.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    As far as health goes, I believe everyone would be better served if what was taught and socially stressed is that maintenance exercise is prescribed for everyone, instead of exercise with the goal of losing weight. If you get into the habit of exercising you generally find that you don't lose a lot of weight from it (unless you do something hardcore like p90x for maintenance exercise), but you do find that you both look at feel healthier. Pressuring people to be skinny doesn't make people healthier, especially when the body image includes things like perfectly rippled abs that can only be maintained by keeping your body deliberately unhealthy. But society doesn't have a lot of strangers coming up to ripped abs people to suggest ways that they can be more healthy, the way we do with overweight people.

    Yeah, I think light to moderate cardio, more than anything, is great for mental health

    Like scheck was saying, it doesn't really make sense to sell cardio as a weight-loss tool

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    credeikicredeiki Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Hm, anecdotally, I have been always cold since puberty and I have never dieted and do not tailor my appearance to meet expected beauty standards. I find it aggravating that the assumption would be made that being cold means I'm on a diet to please men.

    However, I haven't read the research on the subject.

    credeiki on
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    NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also, here is something that horrified me once I realized it, because you see it everywhere: You know how women are "always" cold? Like any time you're in a room you'll find every woman in the room wanting to wear a sweater while most of the men are fine? It's enough of a bit that it shows up in sitcoms, or is usually used as an easy joke in a comic. Every time you see a room full of women who seems to be weirdly colder than the men, you're looking at a women who are eating less food than their bodies actually want them to eat in the name of meeting beauty standards.

    IIRC, fwiw, etc, a competent neuroscientist told me that women tend to feel cold more often than men because women tend to have a denser and more sensitive set of sensory nerves

    I'm not aware of a basis for concluding that this reaction means a woman is not eating a healthy amount of calories?

    There's an episode of The Brain Scoop where the host, Emily, is speaking with one of the people from the museum (Can't remember the name, but he was male) about their technology, and one of the things was an infrared camera. When seen through the camera, Emily's hand was much, much bluer than his hand. Exact same environment, but was significantly colder.

    I mean, data set of 1 and all, but there's also the cold feet complaints, etc. I think women's bodies are actually colder and it's not an illusion due to nerve density.

    something something, variances in average amounts of fat (a very efficient insulator) and where the body tends to store it, variances in the body's average basal rate, variances in how much energy the body tends to expend in warming limbs versus warming the core, something something?

    I'm already way out of my depth here :3

    I don't think the cold problem has anything to do with how much fat you are storing, because when I was dieting I was still obese, just less obese than I might have been sans diet, and I was always colder than any naturally skinny person I know.

    Like I said, I'd love to see a study on a person's sense of cold taking into account factors like how much weight a person has lost, but I'm not in academia to do the study myself.

    I'm going to STRONGLY disagree with you in your initial statement that women who often feel cold are "eating less food than their bodies want". This seems bordering on skinny-shaming, though I'm sure you didn't intend it that way. I might just be reading too far into it.

    I've seen and read a handful of studies/documentaries that try to explain this. They've discovered, for instance, that women tend to have a lower surface temperature on their skin than men...which makes sense because womens' bodies tend to have naturally higher fat content than mens' bodies. Women are basically better "insulated" than men. Men have less body fat insulating their muscles, so they give off more heat. One of the best ways to retain heat is to wear more clothing, but that only helps to warm us by reflecting the heat that we're already giving off. If women are giving off less heat, and have a lower surface temperature on their skin, it's possible that that can be a reason as to why we're colder. I've seen LOTS of women of all sizes feel cold in a room when virtually all of the men (even heavier men) feel fine. I imagine there's a limit to this at some point and if you have enough fat on you, you no longer feel as cold. For women that amount seems to be significant though.

    Also, if you align that with the study posted above regarding air-conditioning standards, you have the perfect scenario for women at an office often being colder than men. I can guarantee it's not strictly an issue of "the women aren't eating enough".

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I think the biggest thing in favor of fat acceptance or size acceptance is that taking the step of accepting your body is the only real way to achieve a healthy lifestyle. The main reason is that as a human being it's hard to muster motivation to work hard for something you hate (your body). But there are other reasons as well.

    Take exercising, for example. When you first start exercising as an obese person, you're terrified that people will laugh at you. You're wearing closer-fitting clothes than you're generally comfortable with and you already know your body jiggles. And your fears aren't unfounded: People do honk and yell things out of cars at me when I'm jogging in public. I have had fit people refuse to share exercise gym equipment with me. But once you've learned to accept and love your body in defiance of social standards? You cease to give a fuck what some stranger on the street thinks of your giggling ass. You realize that that svelte lady hogging the circuit machine is the awful person here, not you just because you're fat.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    I've had problems with the always cold thing as a man. not sure what it could be attributed it to since there are so many possibilities. I wasn't that cold this year, but it was also warmer this winter.

    something I've heard women complain about is how thin their clothing is which makes them need to wear 2-3 layers to stay warm.

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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    I think it's telling that the op and most writing around this is focused around women.

    I mean, I'm over weight, I've been bullied for it, I hate my own body. But I'm a man, an what I experience seems to be a lot kinder than what overweight women experience.

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Thyroid hormone and estrogen fluctuations can impact "coldness" in either men or women.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    m!ttensm!ttens he/himRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »

    We also need to figure out a way to handle 2 earners being needed to maintain a household because that's definitely not conducive to a "cook every night" as a routine either, most people don't want to eat at 8:00pm.

    My wife and I fixed that by planning each and every lunch and dinner in advance for the week (oatmeal/cereal/eggs/yogurt are usually kept well stocked for breakfast). By planning, I know if I need to par-cook things (like beans, whole grains) or prep my mise en place the night before. It also helps for making sure we are eating balanced meals with plenty of vegetables like our nutritionist so gently reminds us to do. Eating 6-7 servings of vegetables every single day can be tough! :biggrin:

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Well, I already admitted it's a more complex issue than my first post implied. There certainly are other reasons why an individual would generally feel colder than other people. I still think in the aggregate, a lot of women do get uncomfortable physical symptoms from the belief that they should always be dieting, and being ridiculously colder than everyone else (I'm talking about visible shivering in rooms where other people are comfortable) is one of those physical symptoms. When I had a gastric sleeve procedure done several years ago (yeah, that procedure didn't work for me fyi), they literally told every patient, "After the weight loss you'll find you are colder than you were before." It's not a symptom I'm making up, it's a verified thing that happens.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Time.com - The Weight Loss Trap: Why Your Diet Isn't Working

    This recent Time magazine article summarizes why losing weight is so difficult for most people.

    - Different people seem to respond better to different diets, for both physiological and psychological reasons.
    - Weight loss is accompanied by a lowered metabolism and a heightened appetite. A study of 14 former The Biggest Loser contestants found that on average the contestants metabolisms' were burning 700 fewer calories per day than before their weight loss, resulting in 13 gaining weight back (an average of 66% of the weight they had lost) and 4 ending up heavier than when they started.
    - The same meal can have wildly different effects on the blood sugar levels of different individuals, with new research strongly suggesting that blood sugar levels are linked to the bacteria population in the gastrointestinal tract.
    - Many people are motivated by unrealistic weight loss expectations, with most people who succeed in long-term weight loss instead motivated by a desire to improve their health.
    - Internalized weight stigma has a negative impact on a person's ability to lose weight.

    I've been saying pretty much this for years. I'm happy to see this getting more mainstream attention... and I admit to feeling a bit vindicated.

    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Though its increasing mainstream acceptance is a recent development, the idea of the "fat and fit" approach isn't new. The organization "Health at Every Size" ("HAES") has been promoting it since the 1960's.

    c8d7e3vikxev.jpg

    "HAES" is only part of a greater "fat acceptance" (sometimes alternatively referred to as "size acceptance") movement that aims to fight weight bigotry, or "fatphobia", in society. Though it technically applies to both women and men, the greater societal pressure on women to adhere to standards of beauty has led to fat acceptance (itself now a subset of the "body acceptance" movement) becoming tightly interlinked with feminism.

    I'm a strong HAES advocate in all ways except one. (More on that in a bit.)

    A seminal paper is Linda Bacon's 2011 Weight Science: Evaluating the Evidence for a Paradigm Shift. The full text is free. It lays out the empirical evidence in favor of the key principles of the HAES model, which are highly compatible with TIME's recent article.

    Where I break from HAES is that both the HAES organization and Linda Bacon personally they have a strong focus on "intuitive eating" which they define as "learning to eat according to hunger and fullness cues, as well as satisfaction." (Example article on intuitive eating) I think this is a great ideal to strive for but I'm skeptical that it works for the majority of people who are struggling with their weight. We know - and HAES admits - that yo-yo dieting can alter hormones like leptin and insulin which control appetite, which can lead to disordered eating. I'm not sure listening to disordered body cues solves anything. The evidence that HAES works overall is pretty good, and they generally include intuitive eating as one of their interventions, but I haven't seen anything where they've compared HAES+intuitive eating vs HAES-intuitive eating. I'd suspect that if they did such a comparison, they'd find a significant population of people whose intuition can't be trusted.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    I was listening to NPR in the recent past and they ran a story about some studies that showed being overweight is actually not in itself unhealthy; most the commonly associated risks are actually from the behavior that might lead to someone being overweight (poor diet, sedentary lifestyle, drugs). Which explains why people can be overweight according to where they fall on the BMI but not be at risk for things like heart disease. It also underscores your point that one might not see that you're healthier because we have been taught that skinny is the image of health, and this just further underscores the need to me for body positivity (which is my preferred term rather than fat acceptance; "fat" has too much negative baggage IMO).

    I've heard various conflicting arguments about this, with most people saying body fat itself can be dangerous, some saying that excessive body fat is a symptom rather than a cause, some saying you can be fat and fit with little risk, etc.

    The current consensus, though, is that being obese, especially around the abdomen, is dangerous.

    I personally don't find fat people ugly (unless they're, like, so fat it is clearing impeding mobility them or causing ill health), and I don't want to concern troll, but I also don't want the idea that weighing 300 pounds is a purely superficial issue and not a cause for concern to spread.

    I think you're using all of these words interchangeably, which makes it difficult to read this post with nuance. The health claims around being overweight, I think, are specific to people who fall into certain ranges on the BMI. They are visibly overweight therefore people assume they are unhealthy, but that might not actually the case!

    Obesity is a word typically reserved for those who are extremely overweight; it may be likely that people who fall in this category on the BMI are going to be at risk for something, but I think it's worthwhile to distinguish between medical classifications, common usage, and the norms of what is considered attractive to make this is a fruitful discussion.

    The vagueness of our language on body weight is my constant nemesis. I run into it all the time, and it makes the messaging of fat acceptance, body positivity, and HAES so much more complicated. Even a simple phrase like "lose weight" can mean 10 different things to 10 different people.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Feral wrote: »
    Even a simple phrase like "lose weight" can mean 10 different things to 10 different people.

    yes

    worth noting that a really optimised exercise program and diet often results in very little change to weight but dramatic composition and appearance shifts, especially in new exercisers

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Magus` wrote: »
    I'll be honest, I've never seen an obese woman I've found attractive. Like, on a straight physical level.

    I personally find softer features appealing, to a degree (maybe because my first date was with a tall chubby girl who asked me for my number). It's not mandatory, because I was once into someone who was probably underweight.

    I'm actually going on a date tomorrow with someone who is a good bit heavier than the last lady I dated (she just texted me, in fact; we're going to see Wonder Woman tomorrow!). She's lost thirty-five pounds this year so far, but I can tell from her photos that she's been yo-yo dieting. I'm a bit nervous about saying or doing something that might make her feel self-conscious, but hopefully not.

    Hexmage-PA on
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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    I was overweight as a preteen, and the teasing from my friends and family was relentless and not at all helpful. I lost the weight when I overcame the abuse, not as a result of it. As an adult, I gained weight gradually while bouncing around jobs that I hated. I had a dysmorphia where I just didn't see it, or how far it had gone. Nobody really said anything about it. I noticed in a changing room mirror of all things. That was when my now wife helped guide me to the myfitnesspal and I started biking back and forth to work everyday. I lost 50 pounds and I've stayed slim because of diet habits.

    My point is that both instances had their problems. On the preteen side, people made sure I knew I was overweight and were generally shitty about it. As an adult, nobody said anything and it went way too far. A middle ground would be nice.

    As a whole, I see the fat acceptance movement as a predictable result of the obesity epidemic. Like any large movement there are good and bad aspects to it. People don't need abuse to lose weight. In fact that makes it harder. On the other hand, it's not a healthy situation and it's never going to be socially advantageous to the general population, just like being ugly is not going to be. That is reality.

    Diabetes is also a reality. The power of positive thinking is not going to give my aunt back her amputated foot. It's not going to bring my uncle back from the grave due to his heart attack. It's all well and good to state a medical opinion that a an overweight 19 year old that still exercises is probably okay. That tends to fall off as people age, are less active, but don't change their eating habits.

    So I have a hard time with this movement. It denies the hard and soft sciences at every turn and lauds fringe cases, not unlike climate change denial. On the other hand, there's no reason to be awful to overweight people. At the end of the day, we do have an obesity epidemic that we need to deal with.

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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    I think people ideally want health to be about making a series of correct choices, rather than a weather system they need to deal with. Part of that is insisting that other folks need to just pick the right things to be healthy and that it's definitely easy. Heck my dad always got annoyed by fat people in his office as a doctor because well beyond any other issue they could just lose that weight and that would probably help! And the recommendation is so easy, too. You can't just say "be less cancer-y".

    My dad died in part because he had surgery to fix a bum heart because he wanted to stop being so tired that he couldn't do things with my mom, and in part because he was a doctor and exposed to a lot of infections, and in part because he was born with a congenital heart defect.

    There wasn't an ideal path lit up for him, and there won't be one for anyone else. My health-nut coworker got cancer, a friend got skin cancer in her 20's, a college friend has MS, my sister gets severe migraines, friends have chronic pain issues, mental health issues... health is an often difficult personal journey through a lot of things that are invisible to others and are almost never actually helped out when strangers call you names or friends give well meaning but generic advice.

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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Even a simple phrase like "lose weight" can mean 10 different things to 10 different people.

    yes

    worth noting that a really optimised exercise program and diet often results in very little change to weight but dramatic composition and appearance shifts, especially in new exercisers

    Case in point, I've taken martial arts back up and do at least an hour of cardio 6 days a week now and in the last year I have lost zero pounds. But my circumference is down several inches.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Vanguard wrote: »
    I used to be 40 pounds lighter at 170, but I also had untreated anxiety and felt extremely ill just about everyday. I could barely get out of bed, I wasn't sleeping, and I hated how I felt. I'm now 210 and overweight but there's no question that I'm far healthier now than I was when I was skinnier. The medication I take that's so improved my life is also associated with weight gain, and I have generally struggled with my weight for my entire life.

    but you can't see that i'm healthier. I just look fatter. so to just about everyone who sees me I'm less healthy than I was. This is the big problem with weight to me, it's highly visible - painfully so - so that's what we focus on. Being overweight can have serious health consequences, but so can dozens of other behaviors that are functionally invisible. A sedentary lifestyle, a horrible diet, drug addiction, untreated mental illness - these can all be just as or more devastating than being fat.

    I don't have numbers for this but I would guess people that have the most distaste for 'fat acceptance' are people that have not really ever been overweight. I also don't know the purpose of hatred of fat acceptance is - am I going to lose weight if I'm subjected to slightly more vitriol and shame based on my appearance? I really doubt it. Fat people are well aware of how unpleasant it is to be fat, and they probably more versed in the health risks associated with fatness than you given that they've actually experienced them.

    Fat acceptance is, at it's core, saying - 'hey, I get it. I'm fat. I've tried literally my entire life to not be fat and all it's done is made me miserable. So i'm just going to try to be healthy in other ways and maybe if you could allow me to exist in public without shaming my appearance, that would be super.'

    I was listening to NPR in the recent past and they ran a story about some studies that showed being overweight is actually not in itself unhealthy; most the commonly associated risks are actually from the behavior that might lead to someone being overweight (poor diet, sedentary lifestyle, drugs). Which explains why people can be overweight according to where they fall on the BMI but not be at risk for things like heart disease. It also underscores your point that one might not see that you're healthier because we have been taught that skinny is the image of health, and this just further underscores the need to me for body positivity (which is my preferred term rather than fat acceptance; "fat" has too much negative baggage IMO).

    To a point, yes, being fat and being healthy are not directly or strongly linked. But eventually there comes a point where you fat cells become so large that they disrupt hormone levels, metabolic function, liver function, etc. I suspect that threshold is highly variable from person to person, but there are weights that would be unhealthy for any human being. If I had to toss out a number that I could feel confident with, I'd say nobody is capable of being healthy at 500 pounds.

    I know for me, having lost a tremendous amount of weight WHILE undergoing treatment for metabolic, liver, and thyroid disorders, the threshold sits around 260 pounds. That's around the weight where, without exercise, my liver stopped struggling, my testosterone and estrogen normalized, my blood sugar stabilized, and I showed no resistance to insulin. I've got blood tests and medical records to prove it. That's also pretty heavy still. I wouldn't be surprised if my body copes with fat better than most. My genetics bias me to being large: my great grandmother was large, my mom is large, etc.

    I dunno where this all fits into the greater conversation here. People are horrible to fat people. They're just unspeakably cruel. Damned near EVERYONE, even people who would gasp and clutch their chest if told they had a bias against fat people, treats fat people like shit. The fat acceptance movement uses lots of different tactics to get that to stop. Claiming that fat ≠ unhealthy is not exactly true, but I feel it doesn't help to try and tear that down. It's not yet in a place where its causing more harm than good, and for plenty of people, it's true at face value anyway. So I guess just keep an eye on society and let it be.

    If the day comes when a substantial percentage of the population is dying because they went overboard with body diversity and positivity, then we'll deal with that then.

    Really, both you and Vanguard are correct. I argue that both of the following things are true:

    A) Some of the health problems associated with obesity are merely correlative; high body weight is an indicator rather than a cause.
    B) Some of the health problems associated with obesity are caused by body fat.

    But regarding (B), I think that:

    1) Those issues kick in at much higher weights than we're used to talking about. (My position is that being mildly overweight doesn't really matter. We can quibble over what "mildly overweight" means. You're not going to die of diabetes if you're a little chubby.)

    2) The weight where those issues take hold has a lot of individual variation. For you (DK), maybe 260 pounds is where you start to have health problems directly caused by excess body fat, while somebody else experiences that around 220 pounds or 180 pounds. (This individual variation exists irrespective of what measurement we're using. Talking about gross body weight - "260 pounds" - isn't very precise if we don't know your height or body fat percentage or so on. In the context of this point, it doesn't really matter. My argument is that different individuals have different healthy ranges for body fat accumulation.)

    3) Where the fat is stored is important. The greater metabolic impact of visceral fat vs subcutaneous fat is pretty well established. (This has gotten conflated in a lot of material - even otherwise scientific, rigorous material - as "abdominal fat." For example, it's starting to become a truism that abdominal fat is worse than non-abdominal fat. I'm starting to think that language is a mistake. I think visceral fat is more accurate language. This does matter, as it is possible for abdominal fat to be both subcutaneous and visceral.)

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    kedinik wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    As far as health goes, I believe everyone would be better served if what was taught and socially stressed is that maintenance exercise is prescribed for everyone, instead of exercise with the goal of losing weight. If you get into the habit of exercising you generally find that you don't lose a lot of weight from it (unless you do something hardcore like p90x for maintenance exercise), but you do find that you both look at feel healthier. Pressuring people to be skinny doesn't make people healthier, especially when the body image includes things like perfectly rippled abs that can only be maintained by keeping your body deliberately unhealthy. But society doesn't have a lot of strangers coming up to ripped abs people to suggest ways that they can be more healthy, the way we do with overweight people.

    Yeah, I think light to moderate cardio, more than anything, is great for mental health

    Like scheck was saying, it doesn't really make sense to sell cardio as a weight-loss tool

    As a slightly chubby runner, this

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    3) Where the fat is stored is important. The greater metabolic impact of visceral fat vs subcutaneous fat is pretty well established. (This has gotten conflated in a lot of material - even otherwise scientific, rigorous material - as "abdominal fat." For example, it's starting to become a truism that abdominal fat is worse than non-abdominal fat. I'm starting to think that language is a mistake. I think visceral fat is more accurate language. This does matter, as it is possible for abdominal fat to be both subcutaneous and visceral.)

    I had been a bit confused by this before. One art anatomy book I have made it seem like all belly fat is visceral fat, which I didn't think sounded right. But then again that wasn't a medical textbook.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    I don't mean to pick on TryCatcher, here's a good example of vague language. I see arguments similar to this one all the time:
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    And losing weight is possible. If 4channers on /fit/ can do it, then everybody else too. Hell, I lost about 55+ lbs after college by changing my dietary habits and exercise (which I need to get on track again BTW).

    "Losing weight is possible."

    Sure, but there are devils in them thar details.

    Let's say we have somebody who looks like Erica Schenck (the runner in the OP) but is coming into an exercise program for the first time after years of a sedentary lifestyle. She's going to lose some weight!

    But how much weight?
    Most people find that they lose less weight than they expected. Losing 10% of your body weight through diet and exercise alone is a dramatic change! Yet people frequently shoot for highly unreasonable targets like 20% or 25%.

    How long will she keep it off?
    Most people who lose weight through diet and exercise find that they gain back most of the weight they've lost within a year even if they continue to adhere to their lifestyle regimen.

    Will she look any different?
    Somebody who loses 10% of their body mass is probably going to look a little different but the change isn't going to be dramatic.

    Does losing that modest amount of weight shift her away from the "obese" category by whatever measurement system you care to use (BMI, body fat percentage, abdominal circumference, etc)?
    No, probably not. Take somebody with a BMI of 35 and a body fat percentage of 45%. This person loses 10% of her body weight in fat. That's a significant amount of weight, but she'll still be obese by both those measurements.

    Is she going to feel better and have better indicators of health?
    Almost certainly! Going from a sedentary lifestyle to regular cardio exercise is up there with quitting smoking as one of the best things you can possibly do for your health... even if the amount of weight you lose is modest at best.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    3) Where the fat is stored is important. The greater metabolic impact of visceral fat vs subcutaneous fat is pretty well established. (This has gotten conflated in a lot of material - even otherwise scientific, rigorous material - as "abdominal fat." For example, it's starting to become a truism that abdominal fat is worse than non-abdominal fat. I'm starting to think that language is a mistake. I think visceral fat is more accurate language. This does matter, as it is possible for abdominal fat to be both subcutaneous and visceral.)

    I had been a bit confused by this before. One art anatomy book I have made it seem like all belly fat is visceral fat, which I didn't think sounded right. But then again that wasn't a medical textbook.

    Note that I'm going a little bit further afield here and my confidence in this particular point is a little lower. There might be problems with abdominal subcutaneous fat that I'm unaware of. Not a doctor, etc. (The consensus is that visceral fat is far worse than subcutaneous fat, but that doesn't necessarily mean that subcutaneous fat is totally benign.)

    But yes there can be both subcutaneous and visceral belly fat:

    RqUvWqt.jpg

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    I mean I lost weight when I stopped drinking soda and started exercising. I went from pretty chubby to pretty chubby, but it was like 10%.

    But you know, if I talk about what I do for exercise now and how much I like it and how it's fun to have some muscles and I really like being able to do things like cook easily with cast iron stuff... people tell me I should try being a vegetarian (I already am), tell me I should start exercising (I do!) welll then maybe start good exercising (It's good! It's useful! I like it! I make regular progress!) wellllll....

    Like don't get me wrong I'm mildly chubby and cute and experience almost no negative consequences for being chubby but fucking hell I can't imagine what it's like for my fat friends. There's not a path that works beyond "oh shit you're def right skinny person who's never actually spent much time exercising and eats like shit you're totally a solid source on what I should do for my health"

    Take a moment to donate what you can to Critical Resistance and Black Lives Matter.
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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    I'll be honest, I've never seen an obese woman I've found attractive. Like, on a straight physical level.

    Just a note on this. What we consider beautiful and not beautiful is entirely a social construct (that is, what was considered beautiful 100 years ago is not the same as now, and what was considered beautiful 500 years ago was not the same as 100 years ago, and so on), but being a social construct doesn't make it any easier to break out of. If it is something you're interested in relearning within yourself (and it need not be, but if you are obese yourself it can help strengthen your own self-image), then start seeking out images of overweight people with the goal of seeking the beauty in those forms. Go to fat fashion websites or look at nude photo shoots of fat people that have been done. Make an effort not to criticize, but instead to believe in what is beautiful. You need not look at these images in the sense of "who I think is fuckable*", but rather you can do it entirely as an artistic exercise as a means to retrain your eye.
    spoiler alert: Everyone is fuckable. Yes, even your toothless racist uncle who never showers. Don't you dare believe that you aren't fuckable because of some part of your body that you think somehow ruins you. Don't think it of anyone else, either. Though you can maybe hope your toothless racist uncle with bad hygiene might not be fuckable because of the racism, but you'd still be wrong.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    spoiler alert: Everyone is fuckable. Yes, even your toothless racist uncle who never showers. Don't you dare believe that you aren't fuckable because of some part of your body that you think somehow ruins you. Don't think it of anyone else, either. Though you can maybe hope your toothless racist uncle with bad hygiene might not be fuckable because of the racism, but you'd still be wrong.

    The Metatron says "challenge accepted."
    anigif_enhanced-29403-1452780057-13.gif

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    I mean I lost weight when I stopped drinking soda and started exercising. I went from pretty chubby to pretty chubby, but it was like 10%.

    But you know, if I talk about what I do for exercise now and how much I like it and how it's fun to have some muscles and I really like being able to do things like cook easily with cast iron stuff... people tell me I should try being a vegetarian (I already am), tell me I should start exercising (I do!) welll then maybe start good exercising (It's good! It's useful! I like it! I make regular progress!) wellllll....

    Like don't get me wrong I'm mildly chubby and cute and experience almost no negative consequences for being chubby but fucking hell I can't imagine what it's like for my fat friends. There's not a path that works beyond "oh shit you're def right skinny person who's never actually spent much time exercising and eats like shit you're totally a solid source on what I should do for my health"

    You know, back on page 2, I had a big ol' write-up about my experiences that I deleted because, y'know, personal anecdotes and all that. But, if we're going down that path anyways...

    Fun facts about me: I'm 5' 7", weigh 240 pounds (most recent weight...about four years ago I was weighing 230...but then I became partially paralyzed and couldn't feel temperatures or pain for a year and half and was forced to stop going to the gym (incidentally, if you can't feel pain (like, literally can't feel it due to damage to your peripheral nervous system), don't go to the gym...I nearly blew out my knee trying to 'muscle' through it))
    More fun facts: I go to the gym for 2 (or more) hours every other day and spend half of it on intense cardio (I'm an environmental tech who works and/or hikes in rivers and/or swamp-like conditions) and the other half on strength training (again, work has me hiking in those environments while packing 40-70 pounds of gear, not including PPE). At this point in my life (late-30s), I'm running faster for longer, and am generally stronger than I was in my late-teens through mid-20s
    And yet more fun facts: I've had a pescatarian diet (well, mostly...I'll break and include lean turkey for special occasions) for the past 15-some-odd years. Prior to that, I had cut out red meat from my diet since the day I left for college. I also cook almost exclusively with EVOO and don't drink beer. And, while I will drink diet sodas, they're treated as a treat and are not consumed every (or even every other) day.

    Now, in spite of all that, I have never been able to intentionally lose weight. The one time there was a drastic change was when my family went on holiday and we all got a stomach flu. Lost a little over 20 pounds in under a week. Fast forward a couple years after that incident (I had regained the weight because (this is going to be important in a sec), duh...it was mostly lost hydration and my body was literally starving due to flushing everything that I tried to put in it) and I needed to hit up my doctor for a refill on my medication (to regulate my uric acid levels...gout sucks) and he asked about past history. I mentioned the weight loss and the cause, and the first thing my doc says to me is "that's a lot of weight gain in two years! Have you thought about changing your lifestyle?" So yeah...from that experience I learned that, as far as that doc was concerned: gaining weight = I have a shit lifestyle...losing weight = DO IT NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS YOUR PHYSICAL WELL-BEING! Needless to say, that guy is not my doc anymore.

    Just a teeny glimpse into the life of this particular fat bastard.

    Erlkönig on
    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    spoiler alert: Everyone is fuckable. Yes, even your toothless racist uncle who never showers. Don't you dare believe that you aren't fuckable because of some part of your body that you think somehow ruins you. Don't think it of anyone else, either. Though you can maybe hope your toothless racist uncle with bad hygiene might not be fuckable because of the racism, but you'd still be wrong.

    The Metatron says "challenge accepted."
    anigif_enhanced-29403-1452780057-13.gif

    I don't know what that's from, but that image appears to be of the late, great, extremely fuckable Alan Rickman, so I fail to understand your point.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    spoiler alert: Everyone is fuckable. Yes, even your toothless racist uncle who never showers. Don't you dare believe that you aren't fuckable because of some part of your body that you think somehow ruins you. Don't think it of anyone else, either. Though you can maybe hope your toothless racist uncle with bad hygiene might not be fuckable because of the racism, but you'd still be wrong.

    The Metatron says "challenge accepted."
    anigif_enhanced-29403-1452780057-13.gif

    I don't know what that's from, but that image appears to be of the late, great, extremely fuckable Alan Rickman, so I fail to understand your point.

    Kevin Smith movie "Dogma." Alan Rickman plays the character named "Metatron" (which, apparently, is a class of angels known as the herald (or, more specifically in the movie, the Voice) of God). And since angels do not have male or female reproductive organs (according to the film), he is, as the GIF says, "as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll"

    | Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Erlkönig wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    spoiler alert: Everyone is fuckable. Yes, even your toothless racist uncle who never showers. Don't you dare believe that you aren't fuckable because of some part of your body that you think somehow ruins you. Don't think it of anyone else, either. Though you can maybe hope your toothless racist uncle with bad hygiene might not be fuckable because of the racism, but you'd still be wrong.

    The Metatron says "challenge accepted."
    anigif_enhanced-29403-1452780057-13.gif

    I don't know what that's from, but that image appears to be of the late, great, extremely fuckable Alan Rickman, so I fail to understand your point.

    Kevin Smith movie "Dogma." Alan Rickman plays the character named "Metatron" (which, apparently, is a class of angels known as the herald (or, more specifically in the movie, the Voice) of God). And since angels do not have male or female reproductive organs (according to the film), he is, as the GIF says, "as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll"

    He still appears to have hands and a mouth, so I continue to fail to understand the point!

    Back on topic: I also gave up soda years ago. I'm glad I did as I consider soda entirely trash, but like all my steps towards health the weight I lost from that was not permanent.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Also I'm so, so glad that body acceptance has reached enough mainstream pull for us to have a thread about it on the forums. Thanks for starting the thread.

    Cambiata on
    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    spoiler alert: Everyone is fuckable. Yes, even your toothless racist uncle who never showers. Don't you dare believe that you aren't fuckable because of some part of your body that you think somehow ruins you. Don't think it of anyone else, either. Though you can maybe hope your toothless racist uncle with bad hygiene might not be fuckable because of the racism, but you'd still be wrong.

    The Metatron says "challenge accepted."
    anigif_enhanced-29403-1452780057-13.gif

    I don't know what that's from, but that image appears to be of the late, great, extremely fuckable Alan Rickman, so I fail to understand your point.

    It's a gag in the movie that angels (like Rickman) don't get to have sex but don't really care.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also I'm so, so glad that body acceptance has reached enough mainstream pull for us to have a thread about it on the forums. Thanks for starting the thread.

    We've had threads in the past but they weren't, er, as nice as this one. #warstories #grizzled

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    The one thing I'd suggest to people based on weight alone is core and lower extremity strength training to fight osteoarthritis. The rest is based on more specific factors than weight.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Also I'm so, so glad that body acceptance has reached enough mainstream pull for us to have a thread about it on the forums. Thanks for starting the thread.

    We've had threads in the past but they weren't, er, as nice as this one. #warstories #grizzled

    PA in general is much more relaxed than it was 8 years ago.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I'd also like to clear up a myth that I've noticed that people bring up about body acceptance, that believing in body acceptance means you can't ever try to change your body in any way: that is not so. It is not a contradiction of body acceptance if you decide you'd like to be more muscular and start doing the weight lifting necessary to achieve that. I personally would like to have a flatter belly, and I might some time set aside the core exercises necessary to fulfill that wish, and I don't see that as a contradiction either.

    One of the biggest points of body acceptance is that you are the sole authority in deciding how your body looks, and as this is a concept that applies to more than just people who are fat I tend to hope it's a philosophy that becomes fully mainstream within my lifetime.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    I think there's a difference between fat acceptance (ie don't be dicks to fat people, don't fat shame) and fat pride (ie it is awesome that I'm fat, I should stay fat or get fatter, kids should be encouraged to be fat). I don't think fat pride is good for individuals or society.

    This is controversial though, because that's the same argument against there being deaf communities, and there are plenty of deaf people who would argue with me that they should exist and be proud. So I dunno.

    ACsTqqK.jpg
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I think there's a difference between fat acceptance (ie don't be dicks to fat people, don't fat shame) and fat pride (ie it is awesome that I'm fat, I should stay fat or get fatter, kids should be encouraged to be fat). I don't think fat pride is good for individuals or society.

    This is controversial though, because that's the same argument against there being deaf communities, and there are plenty of deaf people who would argue with me that they should exist and be proud. So I dunno.

    Deafness is something you can't alter or prevent

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I think there's a difference between fat acceptance (ie don't be dicks to fat people, don't fat shame) and fat pride (ie it is awesome that I'm fat, I should stay fat or get fatter, kids should be encouraged to be fat). I don't think fat pride is good for individuals or society.

    This is controversial though, because that's the same argument against there being deaf communities, and there are plenty of deaf people who would argue with me that they should exist and be proud. So I dunno.

    Deafness is something you can't alter or prevent

    Cochlear implants have made this much less so in recent years.

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Paladin wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I think there's a difference between fat acceptance (ie don't be dicks to fat people, don't fat shame) and fat pride (ie it is awesome that I'm fat, I should stay fat or get fatter, kids should be encouraged to be fat). I don't think fat pride is good for individuals or society.

    This is controversial though, because that's the same argument against there being deaf communities, and there are plenty of deaf people who would argue with me that they should exist and be proud. So I dunno.

    Deafness is something you can't alter or prevent

    Cochlear Implants can restore hearing in some cases. There was an expose some years ago about deaf groups pressuring people to not have those kinds of procedures on their children to preserve deaf culture, or some such.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
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