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Can [Fat Acceptance] Be Positive?

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    NecoNeco Worthless Garbage Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Some tips on giving unsolicited advice/feedback about people's weight to them:

    1. Don't

    Neco on
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    HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    I want to step in on scheck' customary slagging on cardio as he is contractually obligated to do by Big Free Weights, undignified wanker that he is

    All the science about running and cardio being long term unhelpful for weight loss is true and yes resistance training is practically a miracle cure for a long and healthy life

    However running is a solid activity for a previously inactive overweight person to begin with, because not only do gains come relatively quickly compared to resistance training, it has a way of boosting mood levels and improving self confidence that gets your ass in the gym to lift weights

    It's also an activity that requires less equipment and upfront money like a gym, and because you're feeling better about yourself after a while running you may want to get in that gym and try lifting some weights later on! Happened to me (until I moved to NYC and found that the gyms were $$$$ or inconvenient, ofc your mileage may vary)

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    dont trust hakkes she could be running right now dont believe her legssssss

    obF2Wuw.png
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    TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    A big myth regarding exercise is that you need to spend $$$$ in a gym in order to do so. There's a lot of routines that require no equipment whatsoever.

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Catching up on the thread, some thoughts:

    I'm obese. I basically have a similar body shape as Donald Trump, being about the same weight and height.

    For me, the primary source of my obesity is that I fucking love sugar. That white powder makes me very happy, for a short period of time, like nothing else. Pop, chocolate bars, ice cream, baked goods, etc, I love it. Sugar substitutes do nothing for me. For me, weight loss is a pretty simple-in-theory thing: go walking daily, track what I eat, and stop eating sugar. I lost about six inches of waistline last year doing that; in the last six months, I've gone back to eating sugar, and I've put three inches back.

    For me, the downside to weighing more hasn't impacted me (yet, so far as I'm aware) with regards to diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. It's that the more far I put on, the less comfortable my clothes feel, and the more likely I am to hurt myself doing day to day things. Today, stepping out of a truck, I hurt my foot a bit. In early April, walking up a set of stairs towards Sacre Coeur in Paris on the first day of my vacation, I stepped awkwardly and hurt my knee, impacting my ability to climb steps for the rest of my trip. And lately, my tailbone is hurting after sitting in a chair for a long time. Maybe I would hurt it in the same way if I was 20 or 40 pounds lighter. But force equals mass times acceleration.

    Set aside all of the other potential health impacts from obesity, and the simple fact that being obese generally puts a person at increased risk of doing damage to themselves in a way that impacts quality of life is reason enough in my mind to feel that obesity is a problem. I believe that no one - not even the politician whose body shape I happen to share - should be mocked for their weight. As in all things, don't be a dick. But I believe that it should be recognized that obesity is a disease, that even outside potential medical complications and social stigma that it has direct negative impacts on a person's life, and as a society we need to be able to talk about how to best treat the disease without blaming the victims.

    I absolutely agree but I feel there is a difference between being obese (which absolutely has negative effects to ones health) and not being the ideal weight/body shape that is nominally associated with being "healthy".

    This thread is great because when I first heard of the "health and any size" movement I honestly disagreed with it. However the information in this thread shows that I should do more research as from a cursory reading there is a wide bracket of sizes/shapes that can be healthy.

    Everyones different, BMI is total fucking garbo, etc.

    After I managed to stop being homeless, I was considered "overweight" according to BMI at 176 lbs but the military docs put me on double meal portions until I hit 185 because I looked emaciated. And not even haha models are skinny feed that girl a burger kind of dickish jokes, my ribs were sticking out and I kind of resembled Christian Bale from The Machinist with the sunken cheeks.

    I really hate the BMI. I think it's use as a tool to measure large populations is absolutely fine, but for individuals it's incredibly stupid and its use at determining when someone is at a "healthy weight" should be abolished completely.

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    HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    dont trust hakkes she could be running right now dont believe her legssssss

    I may not have the quad strength to crush your little head between my thighs, but I can certainly smother you to death with them. Run rabbit run

    3DS: 2165 - 6538 - 3417
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    A big myth regarding exercise is that you need to spend $$$$ in a gym in order to do so. There's a lot of routines that require no equipment whatsoever.

    Bodyweight exercises are fab for resistance exercise. There's even levels of physical achievement people strive for when they start doing bodyweight, like the human flag or the full planche pushup, so you can totally get real-life cheevos for doing them!

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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Catching up on the thread, some thoughts:

    I'm obese. I basically have a similar body shape as Donald Trump, being about the same weight and height.

    For me, the primary source of my obesity is that I fucking love sugar. That white powder makes me very happy, for a short period of time, like nothing else. Pop, chocolate bars, ice cream, baked goods, etc, I love it. Sugar substitutes do nothing for me. For me, weight loss is a pretty simple-in-theory thing: go walking daily, track what I eat, and stop eating sugar. I lost about six inches of waistline last year doing that; in the last six months, I've gone back to eating sugar, and I've put three inches back.

    For me, the downside to weighing more hasn't impacted me (yet, so far as I'm aware) with regards to diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. It's that the more far I put on, the less comfortable my clothes feel, and the more likely I am to hurt myself doing day to day things. Today, stepping out of a truck, I hurt my foot a bit. In early April, walking up a set of stairs towards Sacre Coeur in Paris on the first day of my vacation, I stepped awkwardly and hurt my knee, impacting my ability to climb steps for the rest of my trip. And lately, my tailbone is hurting after sitting in a chair for a long time. Maybe I would hurt it in the same way if I was 20 or 40 pounds lighter. But force equals mass times acceleration.

    Set aside all of the other potential health impacts from obesity, and the simple fact that being obese generally puts a person at increased risk of doing damage to themselves in a way that impacts quality of life is reason enough in my mind to feel that obesity is a problem. I believe that no one - not even the politician whose body shape I happen to share - should be mocked for their weight. As in all things, don't be a dick. But I believe that it should be recognized that obesity is a disease, that even outside potential medical complications and social stigma that it has direct negative impacts on a person's life, and as a society we need to be able to talk about how to best treat the disease without blaming the victims.

    I absolutely agree but I feel there is a difference between being obese (which absolutely has negative effects to ones health) and not being the ideal weight/body shape that is nominally associated with being "healthy".

    This thread is great because when I first heard of the "health and any size" movement I honestly disagreed with it. However the information in this thread shows that I should do more research as from a cursory reading there is a wide bracket of sizes/shapes that can be healthy.

    Everyones different, BMI is total fucking garbo, etc.

    After I managed to stop being homeless, I was considered "overweight" according to BMI at 176 lbs but the military docs put me on double meal portions until I hit 185 because I looked emaciated. And not even haha models are skinny feed that girl a burger kind of dickish jokes, my ribs were sticking out and I kind of resembled Christian Bale from The Machinist with the sunken cheeks.

    I really hate the BMI. I think it's use as a tool to measure large populations is absolutely fine, but for individuals it's incredibly stupid and its use at determining when someone is at a "healthy weight" should be abolished completely.

    Your views on BMI are the same as mine.

    I used to think Body fat % was a better model but after reading this thread, I'm thinking that's not the best method either.

    But then, what is a good indicator?

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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Karl wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Catching up on the thread, some thoughts:

    I'm obese. I basically have a similar body shape as Donald Trump, being about the same weight and height.

    For me, the primary source of my obesity is that I fucking love sugar. That white powder makes me very happy, for a short period of time, like nothing else. Pop, chocolate bars, ice cream, baked goods, etc, I love it. Sugar substitutes do nothing for me. For me, weight loss is a pretty simple-in-theory thing: go walking daily, track what I eat, and stop eating sugar. I lost about six inches of waistline last year doing that; in the last six months, I've gone back to eating sugar, and I've put three inches back.

    For me, the downside to weighing more hasn't impacted me (yet, so far as I'm aware) with regards to diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. It's that the more far I put on, the less comfortable my clothes feel, and the more likely I am to hurt myself doing day to day things. Today, stepping out of a truck, I hurt my foot a bit. In early April, walking up a set of stairs towards Sacre Coeur in Paris on the first day of my vacation, I stepped awkwardly and hurt my knee, impacting my ability to climb steps for the rest of my trip. And lately, my tailbone is hurting after sitting in a chair for a long time. Maybe I would hurt it in the same way if I was 20 or 40 pounds lighter. But force equals mass times acceleration.

    Set aside all of the other potential health impacts from obesity, and the simple fact that being obese generally puts a person at increased risk of doing damage to themselves in a way that impacts quality of life is reason enough in my mind to feel that obesity is a problem. I believe that no one - not even the politician whose body shape I happen to share - should be mocked for their weight. As in all things, don't be a dick. But I believe that it should be recognized that obesity is a disease, that even outside potential medical complications and social stigma that it has direct negative impacts on a person's life, and as a society we need to be able to talk about how to best treat the disease without blaming the victims.

    I absolutely agree but I feel there is a difference between being obese (which absolutely has negative effects to ones health) and not being the ideal weight/body shape that is nominally associated with being "healthy".

    This thread is great because when I first heard of the "health and any size" movement I honestly disagreed with it. However the information in this thread shows that I should do more research as from a cursory reading there is a wide bracket of sizes/shapes that can be healthy.

    Everyones different, BMI is total fucking garbo, etc.

    After I managed to stop being homeless, I was considered "overweight" according to BMI at 176 lbs but the military docs put me on double meal portions until I hit 185 because I looked emaciated. And not even haha models are skinny feed that girl a burger kind of dickish jokes, my ribs were sticking out and I kind of resembled Christian Bale from The Machinist with the sunken cheeks.

    I really hate the BMI. I think it's use as a tool to measure large populations is absolutely fine, but for individuals it's incredibly stupid and its use at determining when someone is at a "healthy weight" should be abolished completely.

    Your views on BMI are the same as mine.

    I used to think Body fat % was a better model but after reading this thread, I'm thinking that's not the best method either.

    But then, what is a good indicator?

    Blood work. Cholesterols, triglycerides, insulin levels, etc. Honestly, it's probably the best way to know how your body is doing.

    Also, bodyfat measurements are notoriously wrong unless you get put into a air displacement pod.

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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    It's a lot easier for me to be this way than others, for a lot of reasons, but I'm not working out to be better looking. I just want to feel better and not have the dread that comes with knowing I'll be lectured at every check up (which actually haven't​ gone away, my blood pressure still spikes every time). I'm more aware than basically anyone else in the planet that I, specifically, could stand to lose some weight. Shaming or "good natured" teasing isn't telling me anything I don't already know.

    Of course, I'm a white, married dude who never has to impress anyone with my body ever again. So it's a lot easier for me to do this for me than it is for anyone in another situation.

    OptimusZed on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Most recent experience, I went to the ER for some seriously rough anxiety that was spiking my blood pressure. I had eaten about 45 minutes before they took my blood and my blood sugar levels were only 122.

    It was weird, but after having blood sugar at 130 after fasting for 12 hours less than a year before, it actually helped relieve some of my anxiety.

    Point: Bloodwork gives you great results that can help motivate you, even moreso than a scale. Scales can be deceptive. You blood examinations are much less so. If you're looking to get healthier, see your doctor. Form a relationship with them and they can be a huge asset.

    jungleroomx on
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    BasarBasar IstanbulRegistered User regular
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Basar wrote: »
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity obese and lifestyle.

    "It's complicated" is the best way I can describe it.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    VanguardVanguard But now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Basar wrote: »
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    I'm not sure "have you tried not being diabetic" qualifies as useful advice.

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    Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    The only weight that matters is what you squat

    FACT

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    hsuhsu Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity and lifestyle.
    While not 100% linked, type 2 diabetes being 80 times more common among obese vs those with low BMI is quite a vast difference. Believing otherwise is a disingenuous.
    In fact, obesity is believed to account for 80-85% of the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, while recent research suggests that obese people are up to 80 times more likely to develop type 2 diabetes than those with a BMI of less than 22.

    iTNdmYl.png
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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    hsu wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity and lifestyle.
    While not 100% linked, type 2 diabetes being 80 times more common among obese vs those with low BMI is quite a vast difference. Believing otherwise is a disingenuous.
    In fact, obesity is believed to account for 80-85% of the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, while recent research suggests that obese people are up to 80 times more likely to develop type 2 diabetes than those with a BMI of less than 22.

    As I understand it, there is some question regarding causation. That is to say, does diabetes stem from obesity, or do obesity and diabetes stem from the same underlying root cause?

    Shadowhope on
    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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    IrukaIruka Registered User, Moderator mod
    I was talking in a back channel about this thread last night, and since the thread is about "body acceptance being good/bad" and not "Is It possible to change your weight" I thought this was relevant,

    Hello I am that skinny person you know that eats a fuck ton of food and has never gained weight. And not like "lol did you see all that kale I just ate?" In highschool I was playing WoW and eating 2 bigmac meals a day alongside my much larger friends and not giving a fuck. Sedentary was the most accurate description of my lifestyle possible, when I wasn't playing games, I was painting. This was the entirety of my middle school to highschool experience.

    Not even homelife was a factor, I am one of the skinner people in my household, we all ate the same shit (I ate worse, measurably, because of my fast food worker friends getting us burgers for free)

    In the world of issues, being skinny is one of the few "privileges" I have. When people talk about weight, and their issues with it, not only can I not properly give any actual advice, but I cannot actually perceive what it feels like to be carrying extra weight and have someone comment on it. Or have to ask myself if my weight is the reason someone doesn't like me/i dont have a job/whatever other horrible shit happens to people.

    Because I know I can go toe-to-toe with people in terms of shitty eating and literally not gain, of fucking course its more complicated than just making poor choices about food and lifestyle.


    So, in that light, I think that not embracing body acceptance is bad for everyone. At least in america, my skinnyness means that:

    I am almost always assumed to be healthy, even in routine check ups, when in college I teetered on underweight for 4ish years. It wasn't until I missed a period or two due to stress and not eating enough that I was able look at it critically to start bouncing back. I have to really advocate to doctors about getting certain things checked, like "heart conditions run in my family and killed my (skinny) grandfather, please fucking look closely". It takes an EXTREME amount of underweight before people start being concerned in a real way.

    I get a certain backlash/assumption about my personality and eating habits because of my weight. usually in the form of self hatred "Ugh, I wish I looked like you" or more recently, now that I go to the gym: "How did you get that way??" and even better, from people I known for a long time, when I tell them I now work out: "Haha, yeah because you need to loose so much weight" These are all pretty terrible statements/outlooks that our culture perpetuates. I'm not a bastion of health, nor am I immune to wrecking my fucking spine because I sit all day.

    Shifting the conversation to being about health, however we can begin to understand what that means, and shedding our shitty assumptions based on looks will help everyone. If I was adopted and had no idea about my genetic history, I would maybe associate my random chest pain with... I donno, working out? And never get looked at, that's some stupid shit that shouldn't happen, my doctor nearly turned me away from running bloodwork because "eh, you seem healthy"

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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    hsu wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity and lifestyle.
    While not 100% linked, type 2 diabetes being 80 times more common among obese vs those with low BMI is quite a vast difference. Believing otherwise is a disingenuous.
    In fact, obesity is believed to account for 80-85% of the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, while recent research suggests that obese people are up to 80 times more likely to develop type 2 diabetes than those with a BMI of less than 22.

    Of course.

    But judging someone who is overweight and diabetic is not helpful. They could very well be the person who had genetic issues that drove them, or maybe on medication or had a secondary condition like hyperthyroidism or issues with maintaining healthy cholesterol levels (which are absolutely not diet related every time).

    Just having a parent who had Type 2 increases your chance substantially.

    It's Complicated.

    Hate the disease, not the person. Don't pass judgements on their worth because they've been dealt a shit hand, even if the shit hand was their own making. Who knows, their poor lifestyle could have been reinforced by some sort of food pyramid bullshit or the fact that sometimes foods you wouldn't expect to be are literally coated in corn syrup. Lots of shit goes into this beyond "stop being fat! Gosh is it so hard?!"

    Yes. It is. It is one of the hardest things in the world because it's so ingrained in culture and it's one of the things you need to survive (eating) that sometimes shit just goes wrong with how you treat it as a person. It takes some of the greatest willpower in the world to not overeat because your body has been not only trained to do it your whole life, but reinforced because it's a fundamental process of existence.

    It's hard not to judge, I know, I've been on both the giving and the receiving end of that.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    I'm 35 now. I'd say it's been maybe 6 years since I started taking my health seriously. I didn't start eating nothing but kale overnight, but I started adding more physical activity and thinking about my food choices at least some of the time. I'm super proud of the fact that my resting heart rate is in the low 50s and all my blood markers were well within normal ranges at my last physical.

    That said, I was 5-7 235 when I started and 5-7 210 now (with noticeably more muscle, but still a ton of belly fat). I thought I'd have lost more weight by now, but truly changing your eating habits long-term is *hard*. I keep trying and don't beat myself up if I fall off the wagon at 3 weeks because that's 3 weeks of better choices than I could have made, and then I get back on the wagon again.

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    SamSam Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    i feel it's inappropriate to judge people by their looks outside of a sexual context, which is personal and private- if you don't find someone attractive, you don't need to let them know if they aren't approaching you.

    for whatever reason there's a broader social trend of people being judged by their sexual market value even when the relationship or social setting has no sexual dimension. i think this wreaks havoc on people's psyche regardless of whether or not they're considered attractive.

    i'm pretty skeptical of any connection between criticizing the fat and promoting healthy lifestyles. a person that appears plump could more than likely be controlling their diet and exercising. things like genetics and childbirth factor into appearance more than most people acknowledge. there are people that eat whatever they want and they're skinny. they aren't any more healthy than a fat person that overeats. people gain a considerable amount of weight when they stop smoking. is that bad?

    there are of course people that are fat and neglect their self care, but i don't see the point in associating those two things to the extent that society does.

    Sam on
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    hsu wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity and lifestyle.
    While not 100% linked, type 2 diabetes being 80 times more common among obese vs those with low BMI is quite a vast difference. Believing otherwise is a disingenuous.
    In fact, obesity is believed to account for 80-85% of the risk of developing type 2 diabetes, while recent research suggests that obese people are up to 80 times more likely to develop type 2 diabetes than those with a BMI of less than 22.

    As I understand it, there is some question regarding causation. That is to say, does diabetes stem from obesity, or do obesity and diabetes step from the same underlying root cause?

    iirc obesity is mostly a cause, specifically more visceral fat leading to insulin resistance. there are also other possible ways in which obesity increases insulin resistance, which may be also characterized as causes of obesity itself (high specific fat intake, high sugar intake, low physical activity).

    it's all very complicated, but I think it's fair to lean towards obesity being the most significant cause of diabetes type 2.

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    BasarBasar IstanbulRegistered User regular
    edited June 2017
    bowen wrote: »
    Basar wrote: »
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity obese and lifestyle.

    "It's complicated" is the best way I can describe it.
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Basar wrote: »
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    I'm not sure "have you tried not being diabetic" qualifies as useful advice.

    My apologies if I sounded like an ass. What I meant was that while I agree about obesity not being the only cause of type 2 diabetes, many of the risk factors (ie. genetics) that cause insulin resistance can be minimized by lifestyle changes, such as watching what you eat.

    Edit: if I am still misunderstood, I'll blame my shitty English :bigfrown:

    Basar on
    i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language

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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    I would say you need to monitor you fitness/weight and if you notice you're plateauing change up what you're doing.


    For example, my circuit routine in the gym is currently 3 sets of 6 push ups. My body will eventually get used to doing that so I need to change it so I get stronger. I'm solving that by simply adding more push ups to each set. However eventually my body will eventually get used to doing push ups no matter how many I do, and at that point I'll have to move to a new chest exercise.

    Same goes for cardio. My current goal is to get my 5k time down to 30 minutes.

    But once that happens, I'll have to see how I can change my cardio goals so my performance improvement doesn't plateau.

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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    yeah total adherence to a new routine is so hard that it's honestly foolish to expect it. but the focus of lifestyle changes should be to make a bunch you feel you can and then not abandon all of them when you fail to keep some of them. it's the same in addiction treatment (and incidentally a massive flaw in AA), people view shit as all or nothing and are quick to abandon the whole thing when they inevitably fail once.

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    Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    knitdan wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    I think there's a difference between fat acceptance (ie don't be dicks to fat people, don't fat shame) and fat pride (ie it is awesome that I'm fat, I should stay fat or get fatter, kids should be encouraged to be fat). I don't think fat pride is good for individuals or society.

    This is controversial though, because that's the same argument against there being deaf communities, and there are plenty of deaf people who would argue with me that they should exist and be proud. So I dunno.

    Deafness is something you can't alter or prevent

    Cochlear implants have made this much less so in recent years.

    There are deaf societies that spurn surgical solutions, but it's kind of different from encouraging people to be fat.

    I think you're hitting on the exact words that people who don't understand this topic frequently say. Letting people accept their bodies, even be proud of the bodies they have, is not the same thing as "encouraging people to be fat." It's encouraging people to be happy instead of miserable. I assure you, that every fat person you ever met is as perfectly aware of their condition as every deaf person you have ever met. You don't need to explain their bodies to them, they already know.

    When we talk about a person "taking pride in themselves", we are generally talking about someone who is doing self-care. Taking care of yourself is pretty universally a good thing. Trying to encourage people instead to feel shame in themselves has no good outcomes, and is in no way "good for society."

    There is a difference in being proud of your body and being proud of your disability. Body weight is somewhat adjustable and has an upper and lower range of health. A person who by standard definition is overweight or obese (or underweight) need not necessarily be disabled, and their pride in their body type need not be pride in their disability.

    Deafness is a disability, and pride in deafness is a pride in disability, not your own personal hearing level. Maintaining your ideal body weight is a tangible health goal. Maintaining your ideal deafness level is not.

    My purpose is not to throw shade on people who feel happy at their body weight or with their disability. I simply believe that fatness does not share all the same properties as disability and thus can be treated a little differently when it comes to analogies.

    And based on the science presented in this very thread, as well as a lifetime of my own study on the subject, I'm telling you you are incorrect.

    Calories in < Calories out and an overweight person will lose fat over time. There's caveats here and there, but those caveats are either extreme cases or highly temporary effects. A body cannot defy the laws of thermodynamics.

    That sounds nice, but as usual for complex topics, the important details are lost when you over simplify. How many calories you get from the food you eat will vary a huge amount depending on lots of factors. Your body will also do different things with the calories it gets depending on many factors. Calorie counting is not a very good way of dieting and telling someone they are overweight because they eat too much is laughable. You are not their doctor so stop presuming you understand their situation.

    There are few other ways someone can be overweight. And among those few other ways, very few people are actually afflicted with it.

    I don't believe you. I have never seen a study that suggests over eating is the leading cause of obesity.

    No studies that not breathing causes asphyxiation either.

    This is a few pages old, but I'd like to point out that this is a misunderstanding as well.

    Not breathing does not cause asphyxiation. A lack of oxygen does. You can breath just fine in a low O2 environment and still asphyxiate.

    So maybe think before you snark.

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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    I realise I just went on an exercise tangent but I would argue the same logic applies to diet though I'm happy to be corrected here.

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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Basar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Basar wrote: »
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    Type 2 diabetes is not necessarily 100% linked to being obesity obese and lifestyle.

    "It's complicated" is the best way I can describe it.
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Basar wrote: »
    What I found interesting in the U.S. is, and I am not judging anyone for not knowing, a majority of the obese population think type 2 diabetes is a disease. Well, yeah it is, but in terms of general health, diabetes is a consequence of unhealthy lifestyle. I know people who blame diabetes for their weight problems but who am I to throw the reality at them? :(

    I'm not sure "have you tried not being diabetic" qualifies as useful advice.

    My apologies if I sounded like an ass. What I meant was that while I agree about obesity not being the only cause of type 2 diabetes, many of the risk factors (ie. genetics) that cause insulin resistance can be minimized by lifestyle changes, such as watching what you eat.

    Edit: if I am still misunderstood, I'll blame my shitty English :bigfrown:

    you're fine bro

    ilu

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    So this is kind of the crux of this discussion, and why JRX was getting mad at defeatism about losing fat and changing one's body.

    My impression has always been that this simply means losing fat and ceasing to be obese is extremely difficult, and its difficulty is persistently underestimated. Sticking to a routine is insufficient; your routine needs to adapt to your body's changing condition, and some bodies will try very hard for a very long time to remain fat. There are so many confounding factors EVEN WITH perfect adherence that it's easy to fail.

    Certainly there are some people who are doomed to be dangerously obese by their metabolic condition. I don't think that's universal or even close to it. Some other people are probably going to be chubby no matter what, but if they're eating healthy and exercising properly they'll still be in great shape (and we should accept and valorize that!)

    Some of @Feral 's posts have suggested that according to the evidence, almost nobody keeps weight off when they have been obese and lost fat or changed their body's composition significantly even with adherence. I don't think I believe this without seeing the research. It goes against what I've seen and read about the issue, which is more that adherence is remarkably, shockingly difficult, and judging people for failing to adhere is enormously unfair and counterproductive.

    I could be misreading him, or maybe he's talking about absolute weight loss as opposed to what we usually mean by "weight loss," which is reducing fat and gaining muscle and changing body composition without much change in actual weight.

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    darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    Me and my wife just made big changes to our diets. She had just finished 8 years of medical school and residency and she was stress eating pretty much through the entire time and not being very active because shit.. she's got more medical stuff to cram into her brain. We kicked it off two weeks ago after we got back from Ottawa for her royal exams. Now this was BIG changes, we both snack and eat junk food and our portion sizes certainly could be better. For me I kicked my coke habit (cola.. not the other one.. if I had that i'd be skinny haha) and laid off on the amount of carbs we ate. We both upped our vegetable consumption, kicked sweet drinks, candy and are eating more lean proteins. She is starting to bike to work (not a long ride but it is up a hill) and I already have a sport I do multiple times a week.

    First week was ROUGH. With the lack of sugars our energy levels were down, we both had headaches and were grumpy and snapping at each other. Second week was better headaches were gone, we are a little less testy but we could be sleep pretty easy (no longer wired on sugar, before I could easily stay up to 1pm without much issue) This isnt a diet but a lifestyle change, my wife still needs to find something active that she really enjoys cause she needs to build muscle. She is in her early 40s I am in my late 30s. Making good food choices is HARD, I know my favorite pizza place is going to start wondering if we died.

    We enjoy going out to eat but that really gets tricky because you aren't quite sure what is in dishes or what size, calories etc etc etc.

    anyways we are going on week 3 now and I am glad we are both making these changes so we can keep each other on task, everything around us is delicious and sugary and bullshit. Doing this sort of stuff solo.. dont think I would want to do that.

    Switch SW-6182-1526-0041
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    I would say you need to monitor you fitness/weight and if you notice you're plateauing change up what you're doing.


    For example, my circuit routine in the gym is currently 3 sets of 6 push ups. My body will eventually get used to doing that so I need to change it so I get stronger. I'm solving that by simply adding more push ups to each set. However eventually my body will eventually get used to doing push ups no matter how many I do, and at that point I'll have to move to a new chest exercise.

    Same goes for cardio. My current goal is to get my 5k time down to 30 minutes.

    But once that happens, I'll have to see how I can change my cardio goals so my performance improvement doesn't plateau.

    Yes, eventually you'll get to the point where pushups are stupid easy and will have to look into ways to get around it.

    Fortunately, there are plenty of ways to do this!

    The full planche pushup is one of the most notable, plus looks hella cool.

    bq3ofas3vhd7.gif

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    darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    I would say you need to monitor you fitness/weight and if you notice you're plateauing change up what you're doing.


    For example, my circuit routine in the gym is currently 3 sets of 6 push ups. My body will eventually get used to doing that so I need to change it so I get stronger. I'm solving that by simply adding more push ups to each set. However eventually my body will eventually get used to doing push ups no matter how many I do, and at that point I'll have to move to a new chest exercise.

    Same goes for cardio. My current goal is to get my 5k time down to 30 minutes.

    But once that happens, I'll have to see how I can change my cardio goals so my performance improvement doesn't plateau.

    Yes, eventually you'll get to the point where pushups are stupid easy and will have to look into ways to get around it.

    Fortunately, there are plenty of ways to do this!

    The full planche pushup is one of the most notable, plus looks hella cool.

    bq3ofas3vhd7.gif

    thats mesmerizing and a mess of core strength

    Switch SW-6182-1526-0041
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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    I would say you need to monitor you fitness/weight and if you notice you're plateauing change up what you're doing.


    For example, my circuit routine in the gym is currently 3 sets of 6 push ups. My body will eventually get used to doing that so I need to change it so I get stronger. I'm solving that by simply adding more push ups to each set. However eventually my body will eventually get used to doing push ups no matter how many I do, and at that point I'll have to move to a new chest exercise.

    Same goes for cardio. My current goal is to get my 5k time down to 30 minutes.

    But once that happens, I'll have to see how I can change my cardio goals so my performance improvement doesn't plateau.

    Yes, eventually you'll get to the point where pushups are stupid easy and will have to look into ways to get around it.

    Fortunately, there are plenty of ways to do this!

    The full planche pushup is one of the most notable, plus looks hella cool.

    bq3ofas3vhd7.gif

    I am years away from that level of fitness

    I'm not being hyperbolic either

    Actual years away from being that fit

  • Options
    Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    My personal opinion based on my journey is that weight loss has very little to do with exercise and is 90% diet.

    The more you exercise the more your body craves food so it can be a double edged sword.

    PSN: Canadian_llama
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    So this is kind of the crux of this discussion, and why JRX was getting mad at defeatism about losing fat and changing one's body.

    My impression has always been that this simply means losing fat and ceasing to be obese is extremely difficult, and its difficulty is persistently underestimated. Sticking to a routine is insufficient; your routine needs to adapt to your body's changing condition, and some bodies will try very hard for a very long time to remain fat. There are so many confounding factors EVEN WITH perfect adherence that it's easy to fail.

    Certainly there are some people who are doomed to be dangerously obese by their metabolic condition. I don't think that's universal or even close to it. Some other people are probably going to be chubby no matter what, but if they're eating healthy and exercising properly they'll still be in great shape (and we should accept and valorize that!)

    Some of @Feral 's posts have suggested that according to the evidence, almost nobody keeps weight off when they have been obese and lost fat or changed their body's composition significantly even with adherence. I don't think I believe this without seeing the research. It goes against what I've seen and read about the issue, which is more that adherence is remarkably, shockingly difficult, and judging people for failing to adhere is enormously unfair and counterproductive.

    I could be misreading him, or maybe he's talking about absolute weight loss as opposed to what we usually mean by "weight loss," which is reducing fat and gaining muscle and changing body composition without much change in actual weight.

    Yes, pretty much exactly from top to bottom.

    Losing weight is hard enough without people making comments and "suggestions", or judgmental people who do not like obese people making it very public. It's hard enough, especially for Americans, because a lot of our diet these days is based on sugars and carbs, even in our alcohol, and I've shown how the body treats sugars similarly to opioids when it comes to some neuroreceptors. So, not only is there a social stigma that overweight people have to work against (fat acceptance here can be good!), there's the fostering of the futility of even trying (fat acceptance here pisses me off!) and an industry that seems to be actively trying to get you addicted to their food.

    There are some simple ideas that can help people:

    1. Watch what you eat/drink.
    2. Watch your portion size of what you eat/drink.
    3. Take your nutrition seriously. Get a $20 digital kitchen scale, if possible.
    4. Monetarily, if this is an issue, do the best you can.

    jungleroomx on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Karl wrote: »
    Karl wrote: »
    Wait, why do people gain back weight after they loose it even if they keep up the same routine?

    My understanding is that your body can change to adapt to your routine. If you eat less, it will burn fewer calories for the same activities. If you do cardio, your muscles will adapt such that they operate more efficiently, as scheck noted. This seems to vary dramatically from person to person. Some bodies seem very resistant to change.

    This is wholly separate from the fact that adherence to a routine is extremely difficult and sometimes nebulous. The phrase "humans cannot operate themselves by fiat" was apt. People need strategies and support systems to make even small changes persist and are always capable of self-deception, rationalization, self-abuse, etc.

    Okay but if that's true, than how can people hope to loose weight? Are my attempts pointless in the long run if I just end up at the same place?

    I would say you need to monitor you fitness/weight and if you notice you're plateauing change up what you're doing.


    For example, my circuit routine in the gym is currently 3 sets of 6 push ups. My body will eventually get used to doing that so I need to change it so I get stronger. I'm solving that by simply adding more push ups to each set. However eventually my body will eventually get used to doing push ups no matter how many I do, and at that point I'll have to move to a new chest exercise.

    Same goes for cardio. My current goal is to get my 5k time down to 30 minutes.

    But once that happens, I'll have to see how I can change my cardio goals so my performance improvement doesn't plateau.

    Yes, eventually you'll get to the point where pushups are stupid easy and will have to look into ways to get around it.

    Fortunately, there are plenty of ways to do this!

    The full planche pushup is one of the most notable, plus looks hella cool.

    bq3ofas3vhd7.gif

    I am years away from that level of fitness

    I'm not being hyperbolic either

    Actual years away from being that fit

    Yeah, it's not easy.

    But it's still just a stepping stone to the Human Flag.

    dyyrdeua4ndu.jpg

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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Since others have detailed their own experiences, I figure I'll give mine.

    For most of my life I was skinny, to the point that my mother (a lab tech for the local clinic at the time) took me to the doctor once because she was concerned by how thin I was (the doctor said I was fine). I did drink two cans of soda a day (about 80 grams of sugar), but I didn't eat many sweets. My mom cooked most of the time and I didn't eat out too much.

    Now I'm 28 and living on my own. I don't like to cook and eat fast food (mostly pizza) more often, as well as drink beer. I'm also a vegetarian now, but I definitely eat veggie burgers too often. I've switched out my sugary soda for diet soda, still don't eat sweets too often (with my most frequent snack being fiber bars). I'm 196 pounds at 6'2", meaning I'm on the low end of overweight by the standards of the BMI (and I'm not muscular at all, either).

    I know I need to get a healthier lifestyle but have a difficult time sticking to an exercise plan for more than a few weeks at a time. If I miss one day I forget about it completely. I'd also rather try meal replacements, because honestly if I don't have something I really enjoy eating (like veggie burgers) I can put off eating until right before bed.

    I feel bad for fat people who live healthier lifestyles than me, honestly.

This discussion has been closed.