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[Western Animation] RIP Peter Sallis

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So I binge-watched She-Ra.

    It looks pretty nice for the most part, if a bit inconsistent.

    The world and its characters don't make much sense. It's very Steven Universe in that every character and culture is kind of ridiculously unrealistic and the world doesn't feel like it genuinely reacts to its own events.

    It feels like they were desperately trying to straight up rip off Avatar quite a lot and they did not do very well at it because it was also very rushed while avatar made you *feel* things.

    The emotional character moments are mostly okay, except when they force some characters to suddenly change personality so they can be taught a lesson.

    The villains mostly don't make any sense at all. I mean, Kyle. Seriously. Kyle?

    Overall it's okay, but anything that makes it special is hampered by what makes it ridiculous or very-young-child-oriented. I liked it better than Disenchanted, at least.

    We thought the first four episodes were fun, with decent enough character beats. But eps 5 and 6 were a huge drop in writing.

    The motivations are murky, even in the middle of them committing the sin of telling instead of showing. Is it worth continuing on?

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    Incenjucar
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    templewulf wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So I binge-watched She-Ra.

    It looks pretty nice for the most part, if a bit inconsistent.

    The world and its characters don't make much sense. It's very Steven Universe in that every character and culture is kind of ridiculously unrealistic and the world doesn't feel like it genuinely reacts to its own events.

    It feels like they were desperately trying to straight up rip off Avatar quite a lot and they did not do very well at it because it was also very rushed while avatar made you *feel* things.

    The emotional character moments are mostly okay, except when they force some characters to suddenly change personality so they can be taught a lesson.

    The villains mostly don't make any sense at all. I mean, Kyle. Seriously. Kyle?

    Overall it's okay, but anything that makes it special is hampered by what makes it ridiculous or very-young-child-oriented. I liked it better than Disenchanted, at least.

    We thought the first four episodes were fun, with decent enough character beats. But eps 5 and 6 were a huge drop in writing.

    The motivations are murky, even in the middle of them committing the sin of telling instead of showing. Is it worth continuing on?

    There are much worse things to do. I was able to binge it without going meh and switching to YouTube, at least. Catra remains the real star of the show.

    Adora is still pretty okay throughout. It's mostly all the other characters that kind of stay in the muddled dull area.

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Couple of interesting things about Ralph Breaks the Internet -- the pancake milkshake was cut pretty much at the same time, and the bit at the very end of the credits was done so much at the last minute, John C. Reilly had to interrupt his vacation to record it.

    Also, an early draft of the movie featured the Golden Girls.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    She-Ra was a amazing. Catra does steal the show in a lot of ways, she's an incredibly multifaceted character. But all the characters are a lot of fun and the world building is fascinating.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Forums have been down all day, but RIP.
    Stephen Hillenburg, the creator of the megahit Nickelodeon cartoon series “SpongeBob SquarePants,” died on Monday. He was 57.

    The cause of death was ALS, which Hillenburg revealed he had been diagnosed with in March of last year.

    “We are incredibly saddened by the news that Steve Hillenburg has passed away following a battle with ALS,” Nickelodeon said in a statement. “He was a beloved friend and long-time creative partner to everyone at Nickelodeon, and our hearts go out to his entire family. Steve imbued ‘SpongeBob SquarePants’ with a unique sense of humor and innocence that has brought joy to generations of kids and families everywhere. His utterly original characters and the world of Bikini Bottom will long stand as a reminder of the value of optimism, friendship and the limitless power of imagination.”

    Hillenburg graduated from Humboldt State University in 1984 with a bachelor’s degree in Natural Resource Planning and Interpretation, with an emphasis on marine resources. He then became a marine biology teacher at the Orange County Marine Institute (now the Ocean Institute) in Dana Point, California. This interest, combined with his artistic talent and love of the sea and its creatures, led him to write and illustrate stories as teaching tools with characters that would later become the denizens of SpongeBob’s home, Bikini Bottom.

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  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    On a happier note, this finally got a trailer.

    destroyah8721stCenturyLoisLaneKoopahTroopah
  • Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The PIT, level 26Registered User regular
    I do have a certain fondness for Weird West stuff.

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    destroyah87Chiselphane
  • EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    I do have a certain fondness for Weird West stuff.

    It seems to be a trend lately. I've been liking Rooster Teeth's Nomad of Nowhere so far.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Bismuth OS Fully Operational 2019-07-12 - KeystoneRegistered User regular
    that weird dude in Long Gone Gulch looks like a combination of Ace and Murdoc from Gorillaz.

    Bedlam
  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    templewulf wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So I binge-watched She-Ra.

    It looks pretty nice for the most part, if a bit inconsistent.

    The world and its characters don't make much sense. It's very Steven Universe in that every character and culture is kind of ridiculously unrealistic and the world doesn't feel like it genuinely reacts to its own events.

    It feels like they were desperately trying to straight up rip off Avatar quite a lot and they did not do very well at it because it was also very rushed while avatar made you *feel* things.

    The emotional character moments are mostly okay, except when they force some characters to suddenly change personality so they can be taught a lesson.

    The villains mostly don't make any sense at all. I mean, Kyle. Seriously. Kyle?

    Overall it's okay, but anything that makes it special is hampered by what makes it ridiculous or very-young-child-oriented. I liked it better than Disenchanted, at least.

    We thought the first four episodes were fun, with decent enough character beats. But eps 5 and 6 were a huge drop in writing.

    The motivations are murky, even in the middle of them committing the sin of telling instead of showing. Is it worth continuing on?

    The early middle episodes are definitely the weakest. Things take a big step up in ep 8, and then stay better through to the end of the season.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    Dang. 42 reviews and 100%. That's awesome considering A) it's animated, and B) it's a super hero film.

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    templewulf wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So I binge-watched She-Ra.

    It looks pretty nice for the most part, if a bit inconsistent.

    The world and its characters don't make much sense. It's very Steven Universe in that every character and culture is kind of ridiculously unrealistic and the world doesn't feel like it genuinely reacts to its own events.

    It feels like they were desperately trying to straight up rip off Avatar quite a lot and they did not do very well at it because it was also very rushed while avatar made you *feel* things.

    The emotional character moments are mostly okay, except when they force some characters to suddenly change personality so they can be taught a lesson.

    The villains mostly don't make any sense at all. I mean, Kyle. Seriously. Kyle?

    Overall it's okay, but anything that makes it special is hampered by what makes it ridiculous or very-young-child-oriented. I liked it better than Disenchanted, at least.

    We thought the first four episodes were fun, with decent enough character beats. But eps 5 and 6 were a huge drop in writing.

    The motivations are murky, even in the middle of them committing the sin of telling instead of showing. Is it worth continuing on?

    The early middle episodes are definitely the weakest. Things take a big step up in ep 8, and then stay better through to the end of the season.

    Yeah, it did definitely get better around there, but I still have a lot of problems with it.

    Only slight spoilers:
    For being an action-adventure series, cribbing from Avatar, they didn't copy what made the action in Avatar any good. Everything feels floaty and disconnected from the scenery, whereas a lot of Airbender was choreographed like a kung fu movie. They also have a bit of Hercules / Xena syndrome in that their powers are so ill-defined they end up fluctuating wildly from scene to scene, and it's hard to know how tense a situation is supposed to be. Some of the characters are also grating, but I've had my fill of whiny teens as protagonists from anime, so YMMV.

    I did like a lot of the updates. Bow is basically season 1 Bolin, who was my favorite Korra character. The new She-Ra design is rad, and Adora's human design is dope. And the improvements to representation are great, though I still find the old character names/concepts to be painfully eyeroll-y. I'm still split on Catra, but she's an improvement to the 80s villains.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    If you're still worried about jank in Into the Spider-Verse, here's a two-minute clip that should take those worries away.

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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    I know, western animation, but this is being produced by toonami, who has the English dub rights outside of Asia, so I think it has a tenuous claim.

    Toonami announced that they are making 13 30minute episodes of a blade runner series called, Black Lotus. The lead is the guy who was in charge of the BLACKOUT short movie leading up to the release of blade runner 2042.

    Heavy hitters working on this are (copy-paste from article)

    Shinji Aramaki (Appleseed, Megazone 23 III) and Kenji Kamiyama (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Eden of the East) will direct the project, with Cowboy Bebop creator Shinichiro Watanabe serving as a creative producer.

    I'm so fucking ready for this.

    One of many articles.
    https://www.animeherald.com/pressrelease/toonami-and-adult-swim-co-produce-blade-runner-anime-series/

    And a vid report by Mr.H

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    That sounds rad. Inject it into my veins please. BR2049 is an excellent piece of cinema that has no reason working as well as it did. I hope this follows the same suit.

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  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    She-Ra:
    Fun but it was very confused about what it was doing or saying.

    They tried to do the Zuko + Aang thing of having a well developed villain and a well developed lead, but Catra's the one struggling against challenges, while Adora's challenge is defeating the Evil Horde which is, aside from a foregone conclusion, basically Not Appearing In This Series. When you give heroes all the power, the villains become interesting because they're the ones fighting the uphill battle with the odds stacked against them. It also felt like the writers kinda wanted to milk the angst between Catra and Adora over a long period, and I don't know how well that's going to work.

    Some of the voice acting choices were bizarre. Valley girl for the water princess? A whaaa?

    Most of the interesting stuff was Horde side. Catra and Shadow-weaver give exposition on the sorcerers, while Entrapta is MVP of explaining what's up with Etheria. All of the princesses are very face value, which is unfortunate, but this is still early days. The prom episode was predictable in way too many ways, and frankly I think proms have had their day in all forms of media. It was saved by Catra and PLOT, but those could've been achieved in any way without using old jokes about how awful proms are.

    I was a little surprised about it going full Scrapped Princess with Light Hope, and that's probably the biggest whiff, in that She-Ra wants to have its cake and eat it. It wants the classic Good Vs Evil of the 80s, with Hordak being a cackling villain and She-Ra and the Princesses being the force for good that stops him, but it also wants to send messages about friendship. And while the series directly acknowledges this conflict, the thing is that it's really a conflict for the writers more than it is for the characters. So having Light Hope robotically tell Adora to stay and train and give up her friendships so that she can finally beat Hordak is bizarre; it ends up being a weaker version of Yoda and Luke, in that Yoda actually understood Luke's need to save his friends, whereas Light Hope and the entire conceit of She-Ra and the First Ones is now this bizarre conflict, where Adora is simply using the technology to do things her own way rather than upholding a mantle. Compare this to Avatar; Korra and Aang do things very differently, but the impression is never given that what they're doing is at odds with the Avatar cycle. Their mastery of the Avatar state is tied to their own emotional state, and while Adora remains masterful of She-Ra, but in opposition to all of what She-Ra is 'designed' to do because the First Ones are some sort of fuck-up race that tries to murder anyone other than She-Ra that comes into their building.

    Generally, I think the past decade or so has taught people a lot of lessons of how to subvert expectations and maintain suspense when dealing with a protagonist with superheroic powers against a clearly evil enemy (one of the obvious ones being "don't make the enemy clearly evil, have grades of evil"), but She-Ra hasn't really caught up on all that just yet.

    Queen Angela needs better writing too honestly. She comes off as just being almost totally useless, and incapable of imparting any adult wisdom. Compare this to someone like Princess Celestia in MLP; again, a parent figure, but capable of actually giving advice with the simpler troubles, whereas Angela frequently fails to do anything between lecturing and over-attaching, even when dealing with problems Glimmer et al. are facing that aren't the ever-present hegemoniacal shadowy fusion of technology and pure evil threatening all safety and life on the planet.

    Overally though, it's a first season, ATLA didn't hit its stride until Book Two and Three, and as with Dragon Prince, I think things can get a lot better in further seasons if they look back on what they could accomplish story-wise in 13 episodes. With the 'uniting the princesses' out of the way, perhaps more interesting plots lie ahead. Like... basically anything involving Entrapta, Scorpia and Catra. Literally anything. Team Evil Horde.

    Bethryn on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar

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    DoodmannNightslyr
  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    LostNinjaShadowenRiokennBedlam
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Fencingsax on
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  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    let me know how you act when you are the last of your kind. Aang having a super invested interest in Tenzin seems like a perfectly legitimate response.
    Did it hurt his other kids? kind of, but I can't fault him for acting that way. would have been great if Bumi got his powers when Aang was still around, but that isn't how life worked out, so you make due with what's there.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I wasn't talking about just his children. He also behaved in a way the caused Tenzin to carry the survivor's guilt on, which is extremely crappy, and also almost killed Korra.

    But yeah, I wasn't really talking about the parenting stuff.

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  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    NotoriusBENtemplewulfNightslyrBedlam
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

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  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    I would say that, beyond the usual themes of friendship and a rather good take on PTSD, Legend of Korra was primarily about how you could unbalance good issues by taking them too far with the use of force and control to achieve your goals.

    The Equalists had a point, but were tricked by a false leader, and their methods were domestic terrorism and destroying people's lives.
    Unalaq was correct that the world had lost its connection to the Spirit world, but not only did he try and force a reconnection in a destructive way (and take over the Water Tribe through trickery and force), he also refused to accept what had happened between Raava and Vaatu that meant Vaatu had to be kept caged.
    The Red Lotus' philosophy on the Earth Queen and the Dai Li was hardly wrong, but assassinating her, as well as trying to end the Avatar cycle because "nobody should have power over anybody else" is contradictory.
    And Kuvira didn't want her country to fall into ruin through disorder and weakness in the wake of the Red Lotus and Korra's depowering, but became a fascist dictator to do so because she was terrified of the possibility of another Fire Nation.

    I don't see very much of that being about Aang really, and I don't think Aang not chasing down Yakone after depowering and exiling him to check he might have some children who would try and retake Republic City after Aang is dead is really a fault on his part?

    LostNinjaNotoriusBENTDawgtemplewulfNightslyr
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    I hadn't caught this until a rerurn, but Amazing World of Gumball continues to just be a fantastically underatted show.

    KoopahTroopahautono-wally, erotibot300
  • veritastalpaveritastalpa Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

    Aside from what Beth already mentioned, keep in mind, he also needed to re-establish the air benders in order to keep the avatar cycle working correctly, and provide the next avatar with an air bending teacher.

    While he was a bad father, he was still working towards the Avatar's goals, just from a much worse starting position than Korra.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

    Aside from what Beth already mentioned, keep in mind, he also needed to re-establish the air benders in order to keep the avatar cycle working correctly, and provide the next avatar with an air bending teacher.

    While he was a bad father, he was still working towards the Avatar's goals, just from a much worse starting position than Korra.

    Aang's major failing in the original series was that he was a child, not a hardened warrior. From there, he simply wasn't able to grasp that the end of the war would bring rapid advances to technology that rapidly reduced the gap between benders and regular people and what that would mean for a traditional bender-based government.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I mean, I'm also of the opinion that demanding any airbender be a nomad was a massive mistake, sonthat isn't as much of an advantage to me.

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    Incenjucar
  • veritastalpaveritastalpa Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

    Aside from what Beth already mentioned, keep in mind, he also needed to re-establish the air benders in order to keep the avatar cycle working correctly, and provide the next avatar with an air bending teacher.

    While he was a bad father, he was still working towards the Avatar's goals, just from a much worse starting position than Korra.

    Aang's major failing in the original series was that he was a child, not a hardened warrior. From there, he simply wasn't able to grasp that the end of the war would bring rapid advances to technology that rapidly reduced the gap between benders and regular people and what that would mean for a traditional bender-based government.

    In his defense, no one could have predicted the technology leap that occurred. They went from medieval society to fucking Mecha in a single generation.
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I mean, I'm also of the opinion that demanding any airbender be a nomad was a massive mistake, sonthat isn't as much of an advantage to me.

    This is in reference to the post genocide resurgence, right?

    The ramifications of the air benders no longer existing are dangerous enough that you can make a case for personal liberties needing to be infringed on a little. On a personal level I agree with you, but I can also understand why on a societal level it could be considered as necessary.

    Needs of the many and all that.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

    Aside from what Beth already mentioned, keep in mind, he also needed to re-establish the air benders in order to keep the avatar cycle working correctly, and provide the next avatar with an air bending teacher.

    While he was a bad father, he was still working towards the Avatar's goals, just from a much worse starting position than Korra.

    Aang's major failing in the original series was that he was a child, not a hardened warrior. From there, he simply wasn't able to grasp that the end of the war would bring rapid advances to technology that rapidly reduced the gap between benders and regular people and what that would mean for a traditional bender-based government.

    In his defense, no one could have predicted the technology leap that occurred. They went from medieval society to fucking Mecha in a single generation.
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I mean, I'm also of the opinion that demanding any airbender be a nomad was a massive mistake, sonthat isn't as much of an advantage to me.

    This is in reference to the post genocide resurgence, right?

    The ramifications of the air benders no longer existing are dangerous enough that you can make a case for personal liberties needing to be infringed on a little. On a personal level I agree with you, but I can also understand why on a societal level it could be considered as necessary.

    Needs of the many and all that.

    The airbenders were always nomadic. We learned that they traveled between multiple temples in the first series. That's just Aang being a stickler for tradition, since he was desperate not just to rebuild them but to rebuild them just as he remembered them.

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Aang is a subtle, stealth example that this whole "adulting" thing is bloody hard work yo.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    PhillishereNightslyrTDawgBedlamHeffling
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Aang is a subtle, stealth example that this whole "adulting" thing is bloody hard work yo.

    Korra was really good at showing Aang's failures without ever contradicting that he was the person you knew and liked from the first series. You can look at each mistake, think of the kid you knew, and completely understand why that character would get this wrong as an adult.

    FencingsaxkimeLostNinjaNightslyrTDawgHeffling
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

    Aside from what Beth already mentioned, keep in mind, he also needed to re-establish the air benders in order to keep the avatar cycle working correctly, and provide the next avatar with an air bending teacher.

    While he was a bad father, he was still working towards the Avatar's goals, just from a much worse starting position than Korra.

    Aang's major failing in the original series was that he was a child, not a hardened warrior. From there, he simply wasn't able to grasp that the end of the war would bring rapid advances to technology that rapidly reduced the gap between benders and regular people and what that would mean for a traditional bender-based government.

    In his defense, no one could have predicted the technology leap that occurred. They went from medieval society to fucking Mecha in a single generation.
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I mean, I'm also of the opinion that demanding any airbender be a nomad was a massive mistake, sonthat isn't as much of an advantage to me.

    This is in reference to the post genocide resurgence, right?

    The ramifications of the air benders no longer existing are dangerous enough that you can make a case for personal liberties needing to be infringed on a little. On a personal level I agree with you, but I can also understand why on a societal level it could be considered as necessary.

    Needs of the many and all that.

    The airbenders were always nomadic. We learned that they traveled between multiple temples in the first series. That's just Aang being a stickler for tradition, since he was desperate not just to rebuild them but to rebuild them just as he remembered them.

    Yeah, that's my point. There's a very good reason why Tenzin is a shitty teacher, and a lot of it is how Aang taught him

    A common theme throughout the Last Airbender is that there are many different methods and ideas behind bending. The fact that Aang, who is supposed to be free from attachment, can't let his childhood go is an irony.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    A very good scene to display that is one where Tenzin and Korra are just walking down a hallway, and he rolls down her sleeves. He cares about the trappings more than what and how she's actually learning.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Not to nitpick, but subtext of Korra from the beginning is that Aang was actually terrible at being the Avatar
    Really? I remember Kya, Tenzin and Bumi suggesting he wasn't the greatest father, but not much saying he made a bad Avatar.

    He didn't actually solve anything except the immediate problem of the fire nation. Everything else he just never confronted the problem, and Korra had to deal with that consequence. He was much more focused on being The Last Airbender than the Avatar. Even things like how the politics of Republic city (it started out as the gaang in charge of the city, which is... well it could be worse. But then they left and didn't fix or change it at all) indicate that none of them were thinking long term at all.

    Also, he wasn't the only terrible parent.

    Most of the worlds problems during Korra appeared to happen after Aang died and before Korra assumes her full role as The Avatar, and stem mostly from the challenges that a changing world tend to create. He and Zuko set up Republic City to be headed by benders because the challenge during his time were between bender nations. Should they have included non-benders? Yes, but that, and the annimosity towards benders wasn’t really a problem they had incountered yet.

    The makeup of the leadership of republic city is pretty clearly just Aang and his friends. 1 air, 1 fire, 2 water, 1 earth. That isn't an effective way to set up a government, even without getting into only benders are running things etc.

    The first season is literally about a problem that Aang sort of dealt with, and then avoided any follow up on.

    To be very clear, I'm not saying Aang was a bad person. But his job was to maintain balance and peace, and he didn't do it, because he thought of himself as an airbender first, and thought like an airbender, rather than The Avatar. Legend of Korra is an examination of the consequences of that.

    Aside from what Beth already mentioned, keep in mind, he also needed to re-establish the air benders in order to keep the avatar cycle working correctly, and provide the next avatar with an air bending teacher.

    While he was a bad father, he was still working towards the Avatar's goals, just from a much worse starting position than Korra.

    Aang's major failing in the original series was that he was a child, not a hardened warrior. From there, he simply wasn't able to grasp that the end of the war would bring rapid advances to technology that rapidly reduced the gap between benders and regular people and what that would mean for a traditional bender-based government.

    In his defense, no one could have predicted the technology leap that occurred. They went from medieval society to fucking Mecha in a single generation.
    I'd say that Aang's failing was that he wasn't trained properly in his role as Avatar. We saw that Roku, the Avatar before Aang, spent decades of his life traveling the four nations, mastering the assorted philosophies and bending styles unique to each, building a world view that encompassed all of kingdoms and focused on their balance and maintaining that balance. Aang had a year or two to go from learning he was the Avatar to actually becoming the Avatar to save the world, and most of that time was spent on the run from the Fire Nation. Hardly the ideal situation in which to learn.

    That medieval society was one capable of building airships, tanks, iron clad warships, and a giant drill. Just saying it may not have been as much a leap as it sounds. Especially when you consider that the current generation is powered by a completely clean, renewable, biodegradable, nigh unlimited source of electricity, courtesy of the people who can make lightning by punching good, to say nothing of the abilities the other benders could bring when allowed and encouraged to work together. I'd like to think that, given similar magic, our own society would progress at an exponential pace as well (sure, I'm aware we'd be more likely to annihilate ourselves even faster, but I'd like to think that).

    The classic role of the Avatar was not to insure peace, but to preserve the status quo (which just happened to be peaceful). The second the four nations start working together, shit gets out of hand.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    kimeNightslyrTDawg
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    70 years is from pre-civil war to 1920.

    Things change pretty quickly.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    kimedestroyah87NotoriusBENShadowenNightslyrTDawgHeffling
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    At the same time, it's not that outlandish that when you're the literal last practitioner of your religion, that you'll probably put more effort into all its customs.

    This is not intended to be a literal 1:1 analogy, but it's a bit like saying to any middle eastern religion that they don't need to put so much effort or care into their headdress. In a vaccum it's not necessarily a failing to put increased focus on the trappings. Now in Tenzin's case, putting emphasis on the trappings when it comes to his kids and actual air temple monks makes sense. With Korra though, yeah she's not an airbender and never really will be one either, so it doesn't make much sense to focus so much with it on her. At the same time, again when you're the literal last remaining representative... that'll warp your perspectives a bit.

    Early Tenzin is just kind of in a bad place when the survival of air bending depends straight up on how much he can breed and getting his kids to take up the mantle. With the massive boost to airbenders though, the guy can finally relax and focus on the more important aspects.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
    PSN: TheWolfman64 3DS/Pokemon Y: 0774-4614-4065/NNID: the_wolfman64
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Oh, I am absolutely sympathetic to Aang and his situation. My point that began all this is that he fucked up, and that caused problems down the line.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Damn this conversation is making me want to rewatch the series. Why can’t it be streaming anywhere!

    kimeNightslyr
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