Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I'm not saying someone shouldn't shoot at him eventually.
I'm just saying there is often a more important thing to shoot at. Like healers. And real tanks. And DPS who are obviously better than the rest of their team. By "take seriously" I basically mean "treat like a real, frontline tank" which he is most definitely not.
I really think the "Winston is good" thing, or at least in some way better than the other flank-tanks like Roadhog, other than the obvious fact that he's a no-aim class, is kind of an self-perpetuating urban legend.
But I know I'm swimming upstream here. It's not like I care that much anyway, there's not much I can do about it, people keep picking Winston these days anyway. And that's fine! Even in comp, other than the obvious fact that he can't really solo-tank.
I'm not the kind of person to tell someone else they are playing the "wrong" hero. Even if I'm thinking it.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
I got midly upset when someone in comp suggested (in an admittedly polite manner) that I had bad situational awareness because I guess he felt like I wasted my Mei ult.
I had dropped it directly on the cart.
So come to find out, essentially everyone else on the team was either dead or running back. At some point in the moment when I swung around to flank and when I returned, which might have been 3 seconds, the entire push had evaporated. It turned out to be a solo ult.
My mistake was probably asking "Where is everyone" in team chat. He might have assumed I meant "I can't find the carets in the GUI" but it's more like "Why did our push evaporate?".
I mean, even if I'd known that the team was dead, I probably wouldn't have done much differently except maybe explicitly try to get a solo ult kill on a healer or someone. It probably would have gone just as badly. I'm not exactly sure what he expected of me. That push was dead before I even got there. That cannot possibly be my fault.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
Ideally, you should've been paying attention to the kill feed, seen a whole lotta blues going down, and just walked away. Once the push is dead literally the only useful thing you could possibly do is force someone to use their ult. Killing someone isn't useful (they'll be back before you are), poking isn't useful (you already had your ult, and you're just feeding charge to their healer). Your options are to wait in position (if you're sure you can hide), walk back to spawn (if you can do it safely), or jump off a cliff (if you can't do the other two safely).
+2
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
If I'd just walked away they could push the cart. Obviously regardless of the state of the rest of the team, if I'm at the cart, I'm not leaving it, no matter what happens, unless it is clear and we have 3 pushers already. Especially not as Mei, but that applies to all classes.
There's a fundamental truth, something that was also true in TF2; If you are going to die, die on the cart.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
I mean the basic algorithm to playing Overwatch is deceptively simple.
Non-flankers: Spawn. Find main tank. Follow tank. If you can't find the tank, go to the point, avoiding well defended paths. Get to point. If there's any tank there, fight with them, if not, just try to block until one arrives.
Flankers: Spawn. Find off tank. Follow off tank. If you can't find him, start going to the point, using the least defended path the main tank isn't taking. Avoid being seen. Kill the squishies when you get there.
Tanks don't follow, they lead. Merge groups at point/cart, blow ults when available or, when strategicly worth the price of holding them, do combos. If you need counters, wait until you've used your ult to switch heros.
That's it.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
I'm not saying someone shouldn't shoot at him eventually.
I'm just saying there is often a more important thing to shoot at. Like healers. And real tanks. And DPS who are obviously better than the rest of their team. By "take seriously" I basically mean "treat like a real, frontline tank" which he is most definitely not.
I really think the "Winston is good" thing, or at least in some way better than the other flank-tanks like Roadhog, other than the obvious fact that he's a no-aim class, is kind of an self-perpetuating urban legend.
But I know I'm swimming upstream here. It's not like I care that much anyway, there's not much I can do about it, people keep picking Winston these days anyway. And that's fine! Even in comp, other than the obvious fact that he can't really solo-tank.
I'm not the kind of person to tell someone else they are playing the "wrong" hero. Even if I'm thinking it.
I don't understand this. No he's not a frontline tank. But that means he isn't a serious threat? Even while he's on top of your healers? And you should instead try to shoot the frontline tank who's job it is to soak up damage? Or the healer protected by their tanks and dps? If you're not trying to kill him, if only to force him to back off, then you are plain and simple letting your supports die. You're supposed to protect them because they enable everything that is effective in this game.
And concerning your algorithm for the game, the next step if you can't find a tank is never to go to the point. It's to wait and, as they say, "Group the Fuck Up". Unless you're contesting in ot, it is always better to wait and go in at full strength. You have described trickling which is highly frowned upon.
Not grouping up loses games. Period. Also, if you back away from a lost fight and survive, they may push the cart a bit, but you're keeping them from getting more ult charge, which would've made further pushing of said cart easier.
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
Grouping up never involves going backwards, it only involves either going forward in the direction of a tank, or hanging out in cover waiting for one to pass.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
I'm not saying someone shouldn't shoot at him eventually.
I'm just saying there is often a more important thing to shoot at. Like healers. And real tanks. And DPS who are obviously better than the rest of their team. By "take seriously" I basically mean "treat like a real, frontline tank" which he is most definitely not.
I really think the "Winston is good" thing, or at least in some way better than the other flank-tanks like Roadhog, other than the obvious fact that he's a no-aim class, is kind of an self-perpetuating urban legend.
But I know I'm swimming upstream here. It's not like I care that much anyway, there's not much I can do about it, people keep picking Winston these days anyway. And that's fine! Even in comp, other than the obvious fact that he can't really solo-tank.
I'm not the kind of person to tell someone else they are playing the "wrong" hero. Even if I'm thinking it.
I'm just looking at results. Things are going bad, I check the enemy team comp and switch to Winston, things start going great. At worst he's situational, but he does have strengths that no other hero can match. He's not a frontline tank, he's a disruptor and off-tank. Sometimes that's what your team needs to win.
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
One difficulty is that it is impossible to see what classes the carets are in the UI so unless you have line of sight you cannot know which is the tank (much less which kind of tank) and which are flankers.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
E: look at it this way: if you go to the point alone, it's 1v6 and you die. Then your team gets there and it's 5v6 at best. It's very unlikely they win if both teams are playing at the same level otherwise. Between these fights, the cart isn't stopping.
But, if you go in 6v6, and you win the fight, the cart isn't moving forwards. It will eventually move backwards. Then the next fight is 6v6 again! Maybe you win maybe you don't, but you totally stopped the cart for a much longer period of time even if you waited to group up. Remember that the other team has to invest the same time to group up if they lose the fight.
There's a time to group up (most of the time), and a time to try and stall.
Sometimes I get really frustrated whenever I'm playing and my team insists on grouping up at a point where they should be trying to stall.
But in the vast majority of situations you should't be getting on the point without your team around. If your team is defending point A of a 2CP map, you're over half way there with a teammate following close behind, and the rest of your team dies as you're walking in? And you're a character that has some chance of surviving long enough to allow your team to get there after respawying? Sure, maybe. Especially if a few of their team are down. In that case jumping on the point could actually win your team the match.
But "be on the point at all times" isn't an effective way to play the game. It's an effective way of always having your team watch you die as they make their way to the point to face a 5v6.
Death of Rats on
No I don't.
+3
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
I CONSTANTLY get Gold Objective Time and I'm starting to wonder why fighting for the actual objective isn't more popular.
You guys are making it sounds like I don't like groups. One of the reasons I dislike tanking is exactly because people won't group up, and you can't really play the tank classes effectively without that. But then again, I get frustrated when some tank is spamming 'group up' but is just standing around near spawn. No, I'm not going to join you in wasting time twiddling your thumbs while they sit there at the point uncontested, charging ults and building turrets. I will always follow a tank that is trying to actually tank, but if you are not fighting at the front line, or moving towards it, or waiting in cover very near it, I'm not going to treat you like a tank, because you are not playing like one.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
Yeah Mei can absolutely stall a point for a long time and that's a huge asset in OT. But you can use those same abilities to survive the team fight. So just wait a second.
I agree that people are often too willing to concede a point but most of the time it's better to be with your entire team.
And just a side point, "grouping up" is not finding a tank. It's moving back to spawn until all 6 of you are together. A squishy and a tank moving in is just a two-man trickle. 2v6 is no better than 1v6.
9 times out of 10, if everybody else on your team is dead and the enemy team outnumbers you, you should suicide ASAP, or retreat if you're not on the point yet. The worst possible outcome is to prolong your death as long as possible, leading to your five teammates getting back to the point with you now in the spawn queue. Then by the time you get back to the front lines, a few of them have died, etc etc and you waste whole minutes without doing even one coordinated push.
The only exception is control point defense, in which case if you're already on the point you should stall as long as possible. No point in retreating, just fight to the death. Worst case they kill you then cap it, and you'll have plenty of time to respawn for the next point. If you're running back to the point from spawn you need to make a judgment call on whether you stand a chance at saving it or not, but generally speaking it's a good idea to try as long as you can make it to the point in time. The worst thing you can do though is to die after they've finished capping it, then you're giving them an opportunity to race to the next point before you respawn.
+2
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
Yeah Mei can absolutely stall a point for a long time and that's a huge asset in OT. But you can use those same abilities to survive the team fight. So just wait a second.
I agree that people are often too willing to concede a point but most of the time it's better to be with your entire team.
And just a side point, "grouping up" is not finding a tank. It's moving back to spawn until all 6 of you are together. A squishy and a tank moving in is just a two-man trickle. 2v6 is no better than 1v6.
You are aware that flanking exists?
My dream push is two groups, a rein/orisa, a mercy/ana, and 1-2 dps, going in the weakest link, while a road/zarya/winston/mei, some flankers and/or an offhealer, going some another way, where the flankers pop out and start dropping healers just before the main force drops in and starts laying into their tanks and DPS.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
A lot of this comes down to this game's teams being so very tiny. It's almost impossible to effectively use the entire map with just six people, and the hero choices are just overly important when classes outnumber team member slots, which is the case with Overwatch but was not with TF2 which was 12v12 or larger but only had 9 classes unless you count differing loadouts.
I cannot wait for the day they finally release some larger maps and >6 to a team. I mean, you can keep comp 6v6 if you want (though they've never had any problems changing the game out from under a season anyway), but it'd be nice if QP or at least arcade had an option for something where teams are large enough they can become well rounded without having to micromanage who is doing what.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
Out of curiosity, what would you say are the classes? Something like this?
Flanker
Non-flanking offense (& Roadhog, debatably also Symmetra)
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I mean this is kind of subjective, but I'd break up roles like this... but note some are in two because they can swap between the roles easily or do them both at the same time.
Main Tanks: Rein, Orisa, Dva
Flank Tanks: Roadhog, Winston, Dva, Zarya, Mei
Snipers ( :rotate: ) Widow, Honzo
Attack DPS: Pharah, McCree, Soldier
Flank DPS: Genji, Reaper, Sombra, Tracer
Defense DPS/Support: Bastion, Junkrat, Mei, Torb, Sym
Main Heals: Mercy, Ana
Off/Hybrid Heals: Lucio, Zenyatta, Soldier
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
+1
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
You could make the argument that Symmettra can fill any DPS roll these days if they have enough backup. And Zen's discord orb and general orb precision is good enough you could call him partially attack DPS if you wanted to.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
+1
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
You should probably take essentially every opinion I have with a huge grain of salt because at the end of the day I'm not particularly great at aiming and I spend almost all my play time in QP, so I don't get to fight people who are particularly good most of the time. I'm going to do very well to get to 2000 comp rating before the end of the season, and somehow I think that 1750 is likely below average for this thread, even if it's probably closer to the average in the overall population.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
How much more quiet is Reaper's new teleporting?
0
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
You should probably take essentially every opinion I have with a huge grain of salt because at the end of the day I'm not particularly great at aiming and I spend almost all my play time in QP, so I don't get to fight people who are particularly good most of the time. I'm going to do very well to get to 2000 comp rating before the end of the season, and somehow I think that 1750 is likely below average for this thread, even if it's probably closer to the average in the overall population.
Better than me. When I did placements for the first time at the beginning of this season I got just under 1000, and haven't bothered with comp since. :P
Yeah, my groups' cheesiest comp is to run a three-man Symmetra DPS comp: Zarya, Lucio, Symm. If they don't stop the snowball it becomes an avalanche.
I'd like to see snipers moved into a "burst damage/pick-maker" category, that'd include Oldhog and Genji/Tracer maybe. Their effective range is less relevant to their role than how they deliver their damage - in bursts, in order to make a pick.
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited July 2017
I just separate them out because there seems to be a consensus that defense is actually unfavorable for them due to not getting to dictate the range at which they engage. Whereas Roadhog wants to get up close and personal with his foes, so being where they're trying to get to plays to his advantage.
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I separated them out because I'm not entirely convinced they have a real role in this game. Anyone who is good enough at aiming to play a sniper effectively could probably do a lot better learning McCree or Solider instead.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I'm not saying someone shouldn't shoot at him eventually.
I'm just saying there is often a more important thing to shoot at. Like healers. And real tanks. And DPS who are obviously better than the rest of their team. By "take seriously" I basically mean "treat like a real, frontline tank" which he is most definitely not.
I really think the "Winston is good" thing, or at least in some way better than the other flank-tanks like Roadhog, other than the obvious fact that he's a no-aim class, is kind of an self-perpetuating urban legend.
But I know I'm swimming upstream here. It's not like I care that much anyway, there's not much I can do about it, people keep picking Winston these days anyway. And that's fine! Even in comp, other than the obvious fact that he can't really solo-tank.
I'm not the kind of person to tell someone else they are playing the "wrong" hero. Even if I'm thinking it.
I don't understand this. No he's not a frontline tank. But that means he isn't a serious threat? Even while he's on top of your healers? And you should instead try to shoot the frontline tank who's job it is to soak up damage? Or the healer protected by their tanks and dps? If you're not trying to kill him, if only to force him to back off, then you are plain and simple letting your supports die. You're supposed to protect them because they enable everything that is effective in this game.
And concerning your algorithm for the game, the next step if you can't find a tank is never to go to the point. It's to wait and, as they say, "Group the Fuck Up". Unless you're contesting in ot, it is always better to wait and go in at full strength. You have described trickling which is highly frowned upon.
Ignoring the Winston jumping all over the healers because he isn't an "immediate threat" is Winston's dream scenario. He gets to land, throw down a shield, crap all over the healers, and get away scot-free to heal up and watch the enemy line almost immediately fold.
Even ignoring meta stuff, he's just about the best option for focusing down a Mercy. If he doesn't get focused when he jumps on those healers, he pretty much wins the game for his team simply because no enemies can stay alive. He also pierces shields and ignores defense matrix so he can be great for making sure damaged tanks can't live to get away, and is obviously excellent for swatting mech-less D.Va.
Even if somebody regularly plays a character that isn't personally vulnerable to Winston much, a good Winston is absolutely a serious threat because he'll kill everyone else that you need to stay alive.
+1
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
I didn't even want to talk about Winston. I just mentioned my perception of him as a joke class to deal with the other half of the "Every team has a tracer and winston this week" thing. I mostly wanted to discuss McCree effectiveness as a Tracer counter.
I'm hesitant to harp on it or argue strongly because, at the end of the day, ANYONE willing to play ANY tank is a net positive, even if it is the "worst" tank, whichever one I or the internet happens to think that is right now. I really do not want to discourage tanking, even as Winston.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
That probably means you don't retreat enough.
[Quoute]I CONSTANTLY get Gold Objective Time and I'm starting to wonder why fighting for the actual objective isn't more popular.[/quote]
The point is usually the worst place to fight. If anything I see way too many scrubs defending on the point. When and how to contest the payload is a pretty complicated question as well. But usually the focus should be on just killing the other team not playing on the objective.
You guys are making it sounds like I don't like groups. One of the reasons I dislike tanking is exactly because people won't group up, and you can't really play the tank classes effectively without that. But then again, I get frustrated when some tank is spamming 'group up' but is just standing around near spawn. No, I'm not going to join you in wasting time twiddling your thumbs while they sit there at the point uncontested, charging ults and building turrets. I will always follow a tank that is trying to actually tank, but if you are not fighting at the front line, or moving towards it, or waiting in cover very near it, I'm not going to treat you like a tank, because you are not playing like one.
You should flat out not leave spawn without the full team if most of you just died. There is no point to attackimg without the whole team. And you do not save any time by waiting closer to the objective. All you are doing is creating risk that you will get picked and waste more time.
If my team is trickling in, I will literally stop and spam Group Up and if you're that Genji running in by yourself I will watch you die over and over again till you learn your lesson.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
+2
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I don't know how I can express how much I disagree with you. The objective... is the objective. Its why you have a team. It's why you queued. You win by pushing it / defending it. If you aren't going to fight on the point, where are you going to fight?
The cart IS the front line, except when defense has actually pushed well past the cart and is holding a line in front of it, which means NOBODY on attack is wracking up obj time until ground is regained. Obj Time is DIRECTLY proportional to how much you contribute if you are not a flanking class, or Pharah who is usually found flying above the point but doesn't earn obj time. If the main tank doesn't have gold obj time something is wrong.
When I say people retreat too much, I am saying, equivalently, that they are not territorial enough. The team fought and died to gain this ground, and if you just run back and concede it without some kind of fight because you are afraid you might die in a video game, you've not just wasted your own time but your team's as well.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited July 2017
The other side of this coin, when the front line is NOT on the objective, is at the very start of a defense. It drives me crazy when people just give up the entire first part of the map because :rotate: and will only start to fight when the enemy is almost to the objective. I'm thinking Holywood or Hanamura as good examples of what I mean. I understand the opening area is extremely difficult to defend, but on Hollywood you can hold that corner for a good minute or two and the actual choke for several more. Nope. People just hang back in the buildings and wonder why the enemy team got the objective or at least a checkpoint on their very first push.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
0
VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
I'm not saying someone shouldn't shoot at him eventually.
I'm just saying there is often a more important thing to shoot at. Like healers. And real tanks. And DPS who are obviously better than the rest of their team. By "take seriously" I basically mean "treat like a real, frontline tank" which he is most definitely not.
I really think the "Winston is good" thing, or at least in some way better than the other flank-tanks like Roadhog, other than the obvious fact that he's a no-aim class, is kind of an self-perpetuating urban legend.
But I know I'm swimming upstream here. It's not like I care that much anyway, there's not much I can do about it, people keep picking Winston these days anyway. And that's fine! Even in comp, other than the obvious fact that he can't really solo-tank.
I'm not the kind of person to tell someone else they are playing the "wrong" hero. Even if I'm thinking it.
Look at it this way: picks get wins. A Winston that is in your backline is generally isolated from the rest of his team, but his value is in that he is harrassing your backline (i.e., the people who keep YOUR frontline up). If you focus him down when he does this, your team is now in a 6v5 position. This is an advantageous situation, period.
Good Winstons know when to back out, but if you just ignore him in favour of bigger targets, he won't have to. And your backline will die or at minimum not be able to do their jobs.
So if you wanna be the kind of DPS who doesn't support their own backline by helping eliminate a threat like Winston (and putting your team in a 6v5), then you'd BETTER be killing the "more important" things like enemy healers and "real" tanks much faster than Winston is wrecking your backline, otherwise you are part of the problem.
Cuz trust me: Winston is a big deal. People who underestimate him and let him run rampant are the reason he's so popular.
If you want to see him less, punish Winstons more.
I dunno what level of comp you play, but even solo-tanking Winstons can be highly effective if they have a team that backs him up, and this is doubly true if none of the opposing DPS shoot at him because "he's not my problem".
I don't know how I can express how much I disagree with you. The objective... is the objective. Its why you have a team. It's why you queued. You win by pushing it / defending it. If you aren't going to fight on the point, where are you going to fight?
The cart IS the front line, except when defense has actually pushed well past the cart and is holding a line in front of it, which means NOBODY on attack is wracking up obj time until ground is regained. Obj Time is DIRECTLY proportional to how much you contribute if you are not a flanking class, or Pharah who is usually found flying above the point but doesn't earn obj time. If the main tank doesn't have gold obj time something is wrong.
When I say people retreat too much, I am saying, equivalently, that they are not territorial enough. The team fought and died to gain this ground, and if you just run back and concede it without some kind of fight because you are afraid you might die in a video game, you've not just wasted your own time but your team's as well.
Monkey not to sound like a jerk but you don't seem very familiar with many of the core game mechanics of Overwatch. You're really over-estimating your knowledge of how the game works. If you want to climb in rank I'd honestly recommend doing a lot less lecturing and a lot more listening, there's lots of good resources out there by high level players who can explain how to get better at the game even if you don't have good aim.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
+4
VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
I got midly upset when someone in comp suggested (in an admittedly polite manner) that I had bad situational awareness because I guess he felt like I wasted my Mei ult.
I had dropped it directly on the cart.
So come to find out, essentially everyone else on the team was either dead or running back. At some point in the moment when I swung around to flank and when I returned, which might have been 3 seconds, the entire push had evaporated. It turned out to be a solo ult.
My mistake was probably asking "Where is everyone" in team chat. He might have assumed I meant "I can't find the carets in the GUI" but it's more like "Why did our push evaporate?".
I mean, even if I'd known that the team was dead, I probably wouldn't have done much differently except maybe explicitly try to get a solo ult kill on a healer or someone. It probably would have gone just as badly. I'm not exactly sure what he expected of me. That push was dead before I even got there. That cannot possibly be my fault.
The questions here for me are:
1) were you attacking or defending?
2) how far was the payload from the end of the map?
3) how much time was left?
The thing is, you can see allied dead bodies in your UI, as well as the blue chevrons. If you can't see any of them near where the cart is, then it's a pretty clear indicator that there's no one there to back up your ult. Mei's ult is fantastic, but it's best used when you have teammates up who can finish off the people you've frozen.
If numbers aren't in your favour, running up to the objective at all is furthering the problem: you're perpetuating a numbers disadvantage by your team. Unless you KNOW you can survive long enough for your teammates to join you, I wouldn't have even bothered contesting it unless a) we were defending, b) it was literally right on top of the final capture point, and c) it was Overtime.
Mei is a great staller but she can only do so much. In the dying moments in a defense round when the enemy is all over the cart and it's nearing the final capture, then yeah, you're gonna have to dive in no matter what, and you'll probably win the round by dropping Blizzard to zone the objective. But if you're attacking, have plenty of time left, or it's not the final cap point, the better tactic is to wait for your team to form up and attack as 6.
As it is, you could've died and left your team staggered in numbers AND down one of the strongest ults in point defense. If you didn't die, that's awesome, except yeah the ult economy is now a bit out of whack because your ult is a huge potential swing and, depending on the stage of the game, a solo ult may not have been worth it.
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
Grouping up never involves going backwards, it only involves either going forward in the direction of a tank, or hanging out in cover waiting for one to pass.
Yeah this is definitely NOT what I have observed in comp.
Grouping up means regrouping with the rest of the team. If I'm a healer and everyone has died around me, my best options are to retreat back to spawn or suicide off the map so that I don't feed enemy ults. So like, literally going backwards. Cuz even if I don't back off but do survive (i.e., in cover like you suggest), I'm still out of position, which means when my team's next push happens, I'm going to be the first picked OR I'm not contributing much to the fight, and my team will thus be faced with a 5v6.
Monkey not to sound like a jerk but you don't seem very familiar with many of the core game mechanics of Overwatch. You're really over-estimating your knowledge of how the game works. If you want to climb in rank I'd honestly recommend doing a lot less lecturing and a lot more listening, there's lots of good resources out there by high level players who can explain how to get better at the game even if you don't have good aim.
Eh, I've been playing since launch, and it's basically the same as TF2 which I've been playing since its beta, so I know the mechanics just fine. We haven't even discussed that, because what's to discuss? It's a teams-only class-based shooter. I know what that is.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
I CONSTANTLY get Gold Objective Time and I'm starting to wonder why fighting for the actual objective isn't more popular.
You guys are making it sounds like I don't like groups. One of the reasons I dislike tanking is exactly because people won't group up, and you can't really play the tank classes effectively without that. But then again, I get frustrated when some tank is spamming 'group up' but is just standing around near spawn. No, I'm not going to join you in wasting time twiddling your thumbs while they sit there at the point uncontested, charging ults and building turrets. I will always follow a tank that is trying to actually tank, but if you are not fighting at the front line, or moving towards it, or waiting in cover very near it, I'm not going to treat you like a tank, because you are not playing like one.
No lone enemy Mei has ever stalled us out for an entire respawn cycle unless we're already on top of the final objective and the enemy is just flying out of spawn to contest. If I ever see a Mei alone on the cart on any other part of a Payload map, she's one set of Zenyatta's volley orbs away from death.
And gold objective time, as with all the medals, is merely an indicator of what you have done more than others. Certain heroes are going to be more likely to get gold objective time, others aren't. Plus, if you're getting picks against the enemy team away from the point, then your objective time is also going to be low, especially on defense, because then you don't have to contest it as much.
This is different again between attack and defense, btw, and I'm having a hard time distinguishing between which of the two you're talking about.
I got midly upset when someone in comp suggested (in an admittedly polite manner) that I had bad situational awareness because I guess he felt like I wasted my Mei ult.
I had dropped it directly on the cart.
So come to find out, essentially everyone else on the team was either dead or running back. At some point in the moment when I swung around to flank and when I returned, which might have been 3 seconds, the entire push had evaporated. It turned out to be a solo ult.
My mistake was probably asking "Where is everyone" in team chat. He might have assumed I meant "I can't find the carets in the GUI" but it's more like "Why did our push evaporate?".
I mean, even if I'd known that the team was dead, I probably wouldn't have done much differently except maybe explicitly try to get a solo ult kill on a healer or someone. It probably would have gone just as badly. I'm not exactly sure what he expected of me. That push was dead before I even got there. That cannot possibly be my fault.
The questions here for me are:
1) were you attacking or defending?
2) how far was the payload from the end of the map?
3) how much time was left?
The thing is, you can see allied dead bodies in your UI, as well as the blue chevrons. If you can't see any of them near where the cart is, then it's a pretty clear indicator that there's no one there to back up your ult. Mei's ult is fantastic, but it's best used when you have teammates up who can finish off the people you've frozen.
If numbers aren't in your favour, running up to the objective at all is furthering the problem: you're perpetuating a numbers disadvantage by your team. Unless you KNOW you can survive long enough for your teammates to join you, I wouldn't have even bothered contesting it unless a) we were defending, b) it was literally right on top of the final capture point, and c) it was Overtime.
Mei is a great staller but she can only do so much. In the dying moments in a defense round when the enemy is all over the cart and it's nearing the final capture, then yeah, you're gonna have to dive in no matter what, and you'll probably win the round by dropping Blizzard to zone the objective. But if you're attacking, have plenty of time left, or it's not the final cap point, the better tactic is to wait for your team to form up and attack as 6.
As it is, you could've died and left your team staggered in numbers AND down one of the strongest ults in point defense. If you didn't die, that's awesome, except yeah the ult economy is now a bit out of whack because your ult is a huge potential swing and, depending on the stage of the game, a solo ult may not have been worth it.
In that situation, it was close to the first cart point on hollywood attack, I'd had been on the point fighting with the team. I believe most were there, at the very least our dva and a healer. I spun around inside the bar building so I could get behind the cart and start freezing healers, but by the time I got there, in the matter of only a few seconds, the rest of the team disappeared. I say (and this was my mistake) "Where is everyone?", drop my ult and hope for the best. It worked for a few minutes but I'd already blown my CD's so I was mostly just trying to sew confusion before I died. But I was dead when the team died, I just didn't know it yet.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
I'm a huge fan of grouping. That's my entire point. The tank defines where the group IS / groups ARE. Getting to a tank is the same as grouping up. But you shouldn't cede ground to try to backtrack to the tank. That makes no sense.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
Yeah Mei can absolutely stall a point for a long time and that's a huge asset in OT. But you can use those same abilities to survive the team fight. So just wait a second.
I agree that people are often too willing to concede a point but most of the time it's better to be with your entire team.
And just a side point, "grouping up" is not finding a tank. It's moving back to spawn until all 6 of you are together. A squishy and a tank moving in is just a two-man trickle. 2v6 is no better than 1v6.
You are aware that flanking exists?
My dream push is two groups, a rein/orisa, a mercy/ana, and 1-2 dps, going in the weakest link, while a road/zarya/winston/mei, some flankers and/or an offhealer, going some another way, where the flankers pop out and start dropping healers just before the main force drops in and starts laying into their tanks and DPS.
Meanwhile, the enemy team is trying to do the same to you. So you still have to wait for 6 even if you're pushing as two groups, because if you're going in as a single group of 3 without the OTHER 3 pushing at the same time, then the first 3 are going to get eaten alive precisely because the enemy can afford to focus them down.
So yes, a 3-3 setup is a good idea for a push. But they have to be done at roughly the same time, which means waiting for a full 6 before you execute it.
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I'm just saying there is often a more important thing to shoot at. Like healers. And real tanks. And DPS who are obviously better than the rest of their team. By "take seriously" I basically mean "treat like a real, frontline tank" which he is most definitely not.
I really think the "Winston is good" thing, or at least in some way better than the other flank-tanks like Roadhog, other than the obvious fact that he's a no-aim class, is kind of an self-perpetuating urban legend.
But I know I'm swimming upstream here. It's not like I care that much anyway, there's not much I can do about it, people keep picking Winston these days anyway. And that's fine! Even in comp, other than the obvious fact that he can't really solo-tank.
I'm not the kind of person to tell someone else they are playing the "wrong" hero. Even if I'm thinking it.
I had dropped it directly on the cart.
So come to find out, essentially everyone else on the team was either dead or running back. At some point in the moment when I swung around to flank and when I returned, which might have been 3 seconds, the entire push had evaporated. It turned out to be a solo ult.
My mistake was probably asking "Where is everyone" in team chat. He might have assumed I meant "I can't find the carets in the GUI" but it's more like "Why did our push evaporate?".
I mean, even if I'd known that the team was dead, I probably wouldn't have done much differently except maybe explicitly try to get a solo ult kill on a healer or someone. It probably would have gone just as badly. I'm not exactly sure what he expected of me. That push was dead before I even got there. That cannot possibly be my fault.
There's a fundamental truth, something that was also true in TF2; If you are going to die, die on the cart.
Non-flankers: Spawn. Find main tank. Follow tank. If you can't find the tank, go to the point, avoiding well defended paths. Get to point. If there's any tank there, fight with them, if not, just try to block until one arrives.
Flankers: Spawn. Find off tank. Follow off tank. If you can't find him, start going to the point, using the least defended path the main tank isn't taking. Avoid being seen. Kill the squishies when you get there.
Tanks don't follow, they lead. Merge groups at point/cart, blow ults when available or, when strategicly worth the price of holding them, do combos. If you need counters, wait until you've used your ult to switch heros.
That's it.
I don't understand this. No he's not a frontline tank. But that means he isn't a serious threat? Even while he's on top of your healers? And you should instead try to shoot the frontline tank who's job it is to soak up damage? Or the healer protected by their tanks and dps? If you're not trying to kill him, if only to force him to back off, then you are plain and simple letting your supports die. You're supposed to protect them because they enable everything that is effective in this game.
And concerning your algorithm for the game, the next step if you can't find a tank is never to go to the point. It's to wait and, as they say, "Group the Fuck Up". Unless you're contesting in ot, it is always better to wait and go in at full strength. You have described trickling which is highly frowned upon.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
Grouping up never involves going backwards, it only involves either going forward in the direction of a tank, or hanging out in cover waiting for one to pass.
I'm just looking at results. Things are going bad, I check the enemy team comp and switch to Winston, things start going great. At worst he's situational, but he does have strengths that no other hero can match. He's not a frontline tank, he's a disruptor and off-tank. Sometimes that's what your team needs to win.
It does. Going in 1v6 is a guaranteed loss. Doesn't matter if you stalled the cart for 5 seconds (you'll probably only stall it for 1 or 2). If you grouped up immediately, you could wipe the other team and hold them off of the cart for the whole match.
E: look at it this way: if you go to the point alone, it's 1v6 and you die. Then your team gets there and it's 5v6 at best. It's very unlikely they win if both teams are playing at the same level otherwise. Between these fights, the cart isn't stopping.
But, if you go in 6v6, and you win the fight, the cart isn't moving forwards. It will eventually move backwards. Then the next fight is 6v6 again! Maybe you win maybe you don't, but you totally stopped the cart for a much longer period of time even if you waited to group up. Remember that the other team has to invest the same time to group up if they lose the fight.
Sometimes I get really frustrated whenever I'm playing and my team insists on grouping up at a point where they should be trying to stall.
But in the vast majority of situations you should't be getting on the point without your team around. If your team is defending point A of a 2CP map, you're over half way there with a teammate following close behind, and the rest of your team dies as you're walking in? And you're a character that has some chance of surviving long enough to allow your team to get there after respawying? Sure, maybe. Especially if a few of their team are down. In that case jumping on the point could actually win your team the match.
But "be on the point at all times" isn't an effective way to play the game. It's an effective way of always having your team watch you die as they make their way to the point to face a 5v6.
Now it depends on which class you are and where the enemies are. A Mei's entire purpose is to block the point/cart, and sometimes to act as an offtank when you don't have one. But with good wall placement and use of cart as LOS break, you can stall for almost an entire respawn cycle.
But a squishy is probably not going to want rush a point without a tank unless they have an ult and nowhere else to drop it and no good reason to hold it (because the team is too far away or the comp doesn't have a good combo for their ult). They might even retreat just to find cover.
But IMHO people just retreat way way too much in this game.
I CONSTANTLY get Gold Objective Time and I'm starting to wonder why fighting for the actual objective isn't more popular.
You guys are making it sounds like I don't like groups. One of the reasons I dislike tanking is exactly because people won't group up, and you can't really play the tank classes effectively without that. But then again, I get frustrated when some tank is spamming 'group up' but is just standing around near spawn. No, I'm not going to join you in wasting time twiddling your thumbs while they sit there at the point uncontested, charging ults and building turrets. I will always follow a tank that is trying to actually tank, but if you are not fighting at the front line, or moving towards it, or waiting in cover very near it, I'm not going to treat you like a tank, because you are not playing like one.
Yeah Mei can absolutely stall a point for a long time and that's a huge asset in OT. But you can use those same abilities to survive the team fight. So just wait a second.
I agree that people are often too willing to concede a point but most of the time it's better to be with your entire team.
And just a side point, "grouping up" is not finding a tank. It's moving back to spawn until all 6 of you are together. A squishy and a tank moving in is just a two-man trickle. 2v6 is no better than 1v6.
The only exception is control point defense, in which case if you're already on the point you should stall as long as possible. No point in retreating, just fight to the death. Worst case they kill you then cap it, and you'll have plenty of time to respawn for the next point. If you're running back to the point from spawn you need to make a judgment call on whether you stand a chance at saving it or not, but generally speaking it's a good idea to try as long as you can make it to the point in time. The worst thing you can do though is to die after they've finished capping it, then you're giving them an opportunity to race to the next point before you respawn.
You are aware that flanking exists?
My dream push is two groups, a rein/orisa, a mercy/ana, and 1-2 dps, going in the weakest link, while a road/zarya/winston/mei, some flankers and/or an offhealer, going some another way, where the flankers pop out and start dropping healers just before the main force drops in and starts laying into their tanks and DPS.
I cannot wait for the day they finally release some larger maps and >6 to a team. I mean, you can keep comp 6v6 if you want (though they've never had any problems changing the game out from under a season anyway), but it'd be nice if QP or at least arcade had an option for something where teams are large enough they can become well rounded without having to micromanage who is doing what.
Main Tanks: Rein, Orisa, Dva
Flank Tanks: Roadhog, Winston, Dva, Zarya, Mei
Snipers ( :rotate: ) Widow, Honzo
Attack DPS: Pharah, McCree, Soldier
Flank DPS: Genji, Reaper, Sombra, Tracer
Defense DPS/Support: Bastion, Junkrat, Mei, Torb, Sym
Main Heals: Mercy, Ana
Off/Hybrid Heals: Lucio, Zenyatta, Soldier
Better than me. When I did placements for the first time at the beginning of this season I got just under 1000, and haven't bothered with comp since. :P
I'd like to see snipers moved into a "burst damage/pick-maker" category, that'd include Oldhog and Genji/Tracer maybe. Their effective range is less relevant to their role than how they deliver their damage - in bursts, in order to make a pick.
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
Ignoring the Winston jumping all over the healers because he isn't an "immediate threat" is Winston's dream scenario. He gets to land, throw down a shield, crap all over the healers, and get away scot-free to heal up and watch the enemy line almost immediately fold.
Even ignoring meta stuff, he's just about the best option for focusing down a Mercy. If he doesn't get focused when he jumps on those healers, he pretty much wins the game for his team simply because no enemies can stay alive. He also pierces shields and ignores defense matrix so he can be great for making sure damaged tanks can't live to get away, and is obviously excellent for swatting mech-less D.Va.
Even if somebody regularly plays a character that isn't personally vulnerable to Winston much, a good Winston is absolutely a serious threat because he'll kill everyone else that you need to stay alive.
I'm hesitant to harp on it or argue strongly because, at the end of the day, ANYONE willing to play ANY tank is a net positive, even if it is the "worst" tank, whichever one I or the internet happens to think that is right now. I really do not want to discourage tanking, even as Winston.
That probably means you don't retreat enough.
[Quoute]I CONSTANTLY get Gold Objective Time and I'm starting to wonder why fighting for the actual objective isn't more popular.[/quote]
The point is usually the worst place to fight. If anything I see way too many scrubs defending on the point. When and how to contest the payload is a pretty complicated question as well. But usually the focus should be on just killing the other team not playing on the objective.
You should flat out not leave spawn without the full team if most of you just died. There is no point to attackimg without the whole team. And you do not save any time by waiting closer to the objective. All you are doing is creating risk that you will get picked and waste more time.
If my team is trickling in, I will literally stop and spam Group Up and if you're that Genji running in by yourself I will watch you die over and over again till you learn your lesson.
I don't know how I can express how much I disagree with you. The objective... is the objective. Its why you have a team. It's why you queued. You win by pushing it / defending it. If you aren't going to fight on the point, where are you going to fight?
The cart IS the front line, except when defense has actually pushed well past the cart and is holding a line in front of it, which means NOBODY on attack is wracking up obj time until ground is regained. Obj Time is DIRECTLY proportional to how much you contribute if you are not a flanking class, or Pharah who is usually found flying above the point but doesn't earn obj time. If the main tank doesn't have gold obj time something is wrong.
When I say people retreat too much, I am saying, equivalently, that they are not territorial enough. The team fought and died to gain this ground, and if you just run back and concede it without some kind of fight because you are afraid you might die in a video game, you've not just wasted your own time but your team's as well.
Look at it this way: picks get wins. A Winston that is in your backline is generally isolated from the rest of his team, but his value is in that he is harrassing your backline (i.e., the people who keep YOUR frontline up). If you focus him down when he does this, your team is now in a 6v5 position. This is an advantageous situation, period.
Good Winstons know when to back out, but if you just ignore him in favour of bigger targets, he won't have to. And your backline will die or at minimum not be able to do their jobs.
So if you wanna be the kind of DPS who doesn't support their own backline by helping eliminate a threat like Winston (and putting your team in a 6v5), then you'd BETTER be killing the "more important" things like enemy healers and "real" tanks much faster than Winston is wrecking your backline, otherwise you are part of the problem.
Cuz trust me: Winston is a big deal. People who underestimate him and let him run rampant are the reason he's so popular.
If you want to see him less, punish Winstons more.
I dunno what level of comp you play, but even solo-tanking Winstons can be highly effective if they have a team that backs him up, and this is doubly true if none of the opposing DPS shoot at him because "he's not my problem".
Monkey not to sound like a jerk but you don't seem very familiar with many of the core game mechanics of Overwatch. You're really over-estimating your knowledge of how the game works. If you want to climb in rank I'd honestly recommend doing a lot less lecturing and a lot more listening, there's lots of good resources out there by high level players who can explain how to get better at the game even if you don't have good aim.
The questions here for me are:
1) were you attacking or defending?
2) how far was the payload from the end of the map?
3) how much time was left?
The thing is, you can see allied dead bodies in your UI, as well as the blue chevrons. If you can't see any of them near where the cart is, then it's a pretty clear indicator that there's no one there to back up your ult. Mei's ult is fantastic, but it's best used when you have teammates up who can finish off the people you've frozen.
If numbers aren't in your favour, running up to the objective at all is furthering the problem: you're perpetuating a numbers disadvantage by your team. Unless you KNOW you can survive long enough for your teammates to join you, I wouldn't have even bothered contesting it unless a) we were defending, b) it was literally right on top of the final capture point, and c) it was Overtime.
Mei is a great staller but she can only do so much. In the dying moments in a defense round when the enemy is all over the cart and it's nearing the final capture, then yeah, you're gonna have to dive in no matter what, and you'll probably win the round by dropping Blizzard to zone the objective. But if you're attacking, have plenty of time left, or it's not the final cap point, the better tactic is to wait for your team to form up and attack as 6.
As it is, you could've died and left your team staggered in numbers AND down one of the strongest ults in point defense. If you didn't die, that's awesome, except yeah the ult economy is now a bit out of whack because your ult is a huge potential swing and, depending on the stage of the game, a solo ult may not have been worth it.
Yeah this is definitely NOT what I have observed in comp.
Grouping up means regrouping with the rest of the team. If I'm a healer and everyone has died around me, my best options are to retreat back to spawn or suicide off the map so that I don't feed enemy ults. So like, literally going backwards. Cuz even if I don't back off but do survive (i.e., in cover like you suggest), I'm still out of position, which means when my team's next push happens, I'm going to be the first picked OR I'm not contributing much to the fight, and my team will thus be faced with a 5v6.
Eh, I've been playing since launch, and it's basically the same as TF2 which I've been playing since its beta, so I know the mechanics just fine. We haven't even discussed that, because what's to discuss? It's a teams-only class-based shooter. I know what that is.
No lone enemy Mei has ever stalled us out for an entire respawn cycle unless we're already on top of the final objective and the enemy is just flying out of spawn to contest. If I ever see a Mei alone on the cart on any other part of a Payload map, she's one set of Zenyatta's volley orbs away from death.
And gold objective time, as with all the medals, is merely an indicator of what you have done more than others. Certain heroes are going to be more likely to get gold objective time, others aren't. Plus, if you're getting picks against the enemy team away from the point, then your objective time is also going to be low, especially on defense, because then you don't have to contest it as much.
This is different again between attack and defense, btw, and I'm having a hard time distinguishing between which of the two you're talking about.
In that situation, it was close to the first cart point on hollywood attack, I'd had been on the point fighting with the team. I believe most were there, at the very least our dva and a healer. I spun around inside the bar building so I could get behind the cart and start freezing healers, but by the time I got there, in the matter of only a few seconds, the rest of the team disappeared. I say (and this was my mistake) "Where is everyone?", drop my ult and hope for the best. It worked for a few minutes but I'd already blown my CD's so I was mostly just trying to sew confusion before I died. But I was dead when the team died, I just didn't know it yet.
Meanwhile, the enemy team is trying to do the same to you. So you still have to wait for 6 even if you're pushing as two groups, because if you're going in as a single group of 3 without the OTHER 3 pushing at the same time, then the first 3 are going to get eaten alive precisely because the enemy can afford to focus them down.
So yes, a 3-3 setup is a good idea for a push. But they have to be done at roughly the same time, which means waiting for a full 6 before you execute it.