Because if you're not, and you can justify eating flesh of any kind, you should probably do some research about how it gets from the animal to your plate.
I'm not a vegetarian, but I do have a bit of guilt behind the means by which our food is delivered to our plate. But honestly, the last I contemplated the issue, an animal slaughtered to feed someone is slightly more acceptable than an animal slaughtered for personal excitement.
Very true, I agree. But the mistreatment is the same. I am just resentful and pissy about anyone who pretends that just because you eat it instead of fondle it at the end, that somehow negates the processes it went through to get there.
Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
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Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
oh I don't know maybe because tofu is expensive and significantly less healthy for you, and maybe because relying on a single food source like that rather than a diverse one like a the flesh of a wide variety of animals is a stupid stupid thing to do (see: Irish potato famine)
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IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
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oh I don't know maybe because tofu is expensive and significantly less healthy for you, and maybe because relying on a single food source like that rather than a diverse one like a the flesh of a wide variety of animals is a stupid stupid thing to do (see: Irish potato famine)
Yet vegetarians are far healthier then your average meat eater. Oh and Quarn is far cheaper then meat and pretty nutritious.
Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game. A themed party that somewhat matched the theme of the game they were promoting. There was more to this event then a dead goat. And the goat was later used as food, although not at that event.
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"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
oh I don't know maybe because tofu is expensive and significantly less healthy for you, and maybe because relying on a single food source like that rather than a diverse one like a the flesh of a wide variety of animals is a stupid stupid thing to do (see: Irish potato famine)
Yet vegetarians are far healthier then your average meat eater. Oh and Quarn is far cheaper then meat and pretty nutritious.
No meat eaters are far healthier than your average vegetarian. Nyah. Now come back with something resembling proof of your claim, because I'm looking at the members of the world's armed forces and the leagues of professional athletes and I'm not seeing a lot of vegans in the crowd.
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IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
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oh I don't know maybe because tofu is expensive and significantly less healthy for you, and maybe because relying on a single food source like that rather than a diverse one like a the flesh of a wide variety of animals is a stupid stupid thing to do (see: Irish potato famine)
Yet vegetarians are far healthier then your average meat eater. Oh and Quarn is far cheaper then meat and pretty nutritious.
I happen to know a number of vegetarians that I wouldn't consider healthier than your average meat eater. What do you base that assertion upon? Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily on either side here, it's just that that's a very general blanket statement and may not even be accurate.
I happen to know a number of vegetarians that I wouldn't consider healthier than your average meat eater. What do you base that assertion upon? Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily on either side here, it's just that that's a very general blanket statement and may not even be accurate.
I think he was basing it on there are more obese meat eaters then there are obese vegetarians. Although true, it's a rather silly way to look at it.
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"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game.
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
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I happen to know a number of vegetarians that I wouldn't consider healthier than your average meat eater. What do you base that assertion upon? Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily on either side here, it's just that that's a very general blanket statement and may not even be accurate.
I think he was basing it on there are more obese meat eaters then there are obese vegetarians. Although true, it's a rather silly way to look at it.
There are also a lot more malnourished and anemic vegetarians, and I don't know about you guys, but I've seen a pretty wide array of obese vegetarians myself. It's not hard to get fat when you use vegetarianism as an excuse to slam back the potato chips.
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IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
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oh I don't know maybe because tofu is expensive and significantly less healthy for you, and maybe because relying on a single food source like that rather than a diverse one like a the flesh of a wide variety of animals is a stupid stupid thing to do (see: Irish potato famine)
Yet vegetarians are far healthier then your average meat eater. Oh and Quarn is far cheaper then meat and pretty nutritious.
No meat eaters are far healthier than your average vegetarian. Nyah. Now come back with something resembling proof of your claim, because I'm looking at the members of the world's armed forces and the leagues of professional athletes and I'm not seeing a lot of vegans in the crowd.
The Oxford Vegetarian Study: an overview.
The Oxford Vegetarian Study is a prospective study of 6000 vegetarians and 5000 nonvegetarian control subjects recruited in the United Kingdom between 1980 and 1984. Cross-sectional analyses of study data showed that vegans had lower total- and LDL-cholesterol concentrations than did meat eaters; vegetarians and fish eaters had intermediate and similar values. Meat and cheese consumption were positively associated, and dietary fiber intake was inversely associated, with total-cholesterol concentration in both men and women. After 12 y of follow-up, all-cause mortality in the whole cohort was roughly half that in the population of England and Wales (standardized mortality ratio, 0.46; 95% CI, 0.42, 0.51). After adjusting for smoking, body mass index, and social class, death rates were lower in non-meat-eaters than in meat eaters for each of the mortality endpoints studied [relative risks and 95% CIs: 0.80 (0. 65, 0.99) for all causes of death, 0.72 (0.47, 1.10) for ischemic heart disease, and 0.61 (0.44, 0.84) for all malignant neoplasms]. Mortality from ischemic heart disease was also positively associated with estimated intakes of total animal fat, saturated animal fat, and dietary cholesterol. Other analyses showed that non-meat-eaters had only half the risk of meat eaters of requiring an emergency appendectomy, and that vegans in Britain may be at risk for iodine deficiency. Thus, the health of vegetarians in this study is generally good and compares favorably with that of the nonvegetarian control subjects. Larger studies are needed to examine rates of specific cancers and other diseases among vegetarians.
Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game.
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
Just in case? Do you know what a butcher does?!
And yes, it was probably just chill'n in back. Probably in some sort of "meat locker".
Neva on
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"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
SC, that study is over 20 years old. Considering the rate of vegetarianism at the time, and the factors driving it as a choice compared to the trendiness of it now, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that vegetarians were as a whole probably a good deal healthier than they are now. Hell meat eaters were a whole lot healthier than they are on the whole now.
Using a 22 year old study to make a point about current health trends isn't a good arguing point.
Also, don't give me any fucking sass about eating meat if you're going to eat dairy. I'd love to see the ethical justification for eating cheese when it's immoral to eat beef.
Pheezer on
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Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game.
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
Just in case? Do you know what a butcher does?!
And yes, it was probably just chill'n in back. Probably in some sort of "meat locker".
Actually I don't see it being very likely that a butcher would be storing a large number of goat carcasses with only the heads removed, but otherwise fully intact.
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So basically, this is "Sony throws party. Dead goat gets all press."
And the whole "vegans are healthier" is bullshit. It's a blanket statement that is not true across the board. Case in point: My little sister went vegan for two years and it affected her iron count, causing her to have anemia. While she is not the standard, her choice to go vegan has now caused a health related issue she has to be aware of on a daily basis.
What about killing plants? Don't Vegen's have any respect for the plant? A Living thing being killed just so you can call yourself vegen? You guys should be ashamed for calling meat eater cruel but then turn around and kill plants.
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Using a 22 year old study to make a point about current health trends isn't a good arguing point.
Also, don't give me any fucking sass about eating meat if you're going to eat dairy. I'd love to see the ethical justification for eating cheese when it's immoral to eat beef.
It was the first study that came up on google, if I spent the time I'm sure I could find a much better and more recent study. My argument, however, holds up fine. Apparently you can live healthily on a vegetarian diet which was my original point. Eating meat for the vast majority of people is completely unnecessary.
p.s. I'm a meat eater, my point was that I see very little difference between cutting a goats head of and eating its deep fried corpse and simply cutting its head off and using it as a centerpiece.
You don't generally keep full carcasses in a meat locker. You butcher and clean them first.
This was a goat that would have been butchered for normal goat use, like meat for people or dogs or whatever, but instead Sony says "give us the whole thing, plz, just kill it and gut it. We'll party and bring it back for disposal." Which, for the most part, is ethically no different than them going up on a hill and slitting a goat's throat for fun.
This was just stupid. If the white and black woman wrestling was "racist," then this sure as hell must be something offensive. It can't be rationalized away. Topless women was really all that was necessary, anyway.
P.S. About half of the vegetarians and vegans that I know are quite overweight. Anecdote ftw.
Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game.
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
Maybe he does. This is in Greece not fuckin america.
stop being so narrow minded about foreign traditions and practices. just cause a headless goat is offensive to you dont try and change the views of others.
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
Pheezer on
IT'S GOT ME REACHING IN MY POCKET IT'S GOT ME FORKING OVER CASH
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Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game.
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
Maybe he does. This is in Greece not fuckin america.
stop being so narrow minded about foreign traditions and practices. just cause a headless goat is offensive to you dont try and change the views of others.
I'm not American, stop being so narrow minded and assuming that anyone posting on the message board of an American web comic would be an American themselves.
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Guys this isn't the greeks havin' themselves some goat. This is Sony paying someone to decapitate a goat for them to promote a videogame.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game.
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
Just in case? Do you know what a butcher does?!
And yes, it was probably just chill'n in back. Probably in some sort of "meat locker".
Actually I don't see it being very likely that a butcher would be storing a large number of goat carcasses with only the heads removed, but otherwise fully intact.
It really depends on the butcher and their clients. Even so, maybe they just said "Goat please, hold the head". At that point, I don't think the fully intact frozen dead goat is going to care. He probably didn't even feel it.
Neva on
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"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
This is where it's kind of tough to draw the line in my mind. I guess it depends on what you are concerned with: whether you're killing the animals or whether they are mistreated while they are alive (or both). All I was trying to say is it's completely possible to eat cheese and still have a happy cow that lives a full life (even though it may be impractical economically, like you said). In that sense, though, it's still possible to have a happy cow up until the time you kill it for food. But of course when you're feeding millions of people, concessions have to be made and of course, one of the first things to go is usually the animal's welfare.
Using a 22 year old study to make a point about current health trends isn't a good arguing point.
Also, don't give me any fucking sass about eating meat if you're going to eat dairy. I'd love to see the ethical justification for eating cheese when it's immoral to eat beef.
It was the first study that came up on google, if I spent the time I'm sure I could find a much better and more recent study. My argument, however, holds up fine. Apparently you can live healthily on a vegetarian diet which was my original point. Eating meat for the vast majority of people is completely unnecessary.
p.s. I'm a meat eater, my point was that I see very little difference between cutting a goats head of and eating its deep fried corpse and simply cutting its head off and using it as a centerpiece.
It's not feasible on my budget in my part of the world, so meat still gets to be called a necessity.
The difference isn't really that subtle though. Using the corpse of something as sustenance can be justified, using it as entertainment is wasteful and barbaric. And I don't care who's offended by that, if you're going to insist that because I'm not Greek I wouldn't know what's barbaric, I'm going to insist that you're stupid. And that most modern day Greeks would probably be offended by your insistence that this is totally normal shit over there and that everyone loves a sacrificial goat in Greece.
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I'm starting to feel sorry I added anything to this thread. Going downhill very fast. Lets all agree that we think it was a stupid stunt by Sony but we have varying degrees on how morally offensive we find it? ie from not offensive to all to pretty bloody offensive.
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
This is where it's kind of tough to draw the line in my mind. I guess it depends on what you are concerned with: whether you're killing the animals or whether they are mistreated while they are alive (or both). All I was trying to say is it's completely possible to eat cheese and still have a happy cow that lives a full life (even though it may be impractical economically, like you said). In that sense, though, it's still possible to have a happy cow up until the time you kill it for food. But of course when you're feeding millions of people, concessions have to be made and of course, one of the first things to go is usually the animal's welfare.
Man, this is kind of depressing.
Especially if you live in California. They have happy cows. The TV tells me.
Using a 22 year old study to make a point about current health trends isn't a good arguing point.
Also, don't give me any fucking sass about eating meat if you're going to eat dairy. I'd love to see the ethical justification for eating cheese when it's immoral to eat beef.
It was the first study that came up on google, if I spent the time I'm sure I could find a much better and more recent study. My argument, however, holds up fine. Apparently you can live healthily on a vegetarian diet which was my original point. Eating meat for the vast majority of people is completely unnecessary.
p.s. I'm a meat eater, my point was that I see very little difference between cutting a goats head of and eating its deep fried corpse and simply cutting its head off and using it as a centerpiece.
It's not feasible on my budget in my part of the world, so meat still gets to be called a necessity.
The difference isn't really that subtle though. Using the corpse of something as sustenance can be justified, using it as entertainment is wasteful and barbaric. And I don't care who's offended by that, if you're going to insist that because I'm not Greek I wouldn't know what's barbaric, I'm going to insist that you're stupid. And that most modern day Greeks would probably be offended by your insistence that this is totally normal shit over there and that everyone loves a sacrificial goat in Greece.
I just dont understand where you are going with this.
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
This is where it's kind of tough to draw the line in my mind. I guess it depends on what you are concerned with: whether you're killing the animals or whether they are mistreated while they are alive (or both). All I was trying to say is it's completely possible to eat cheese and still have a happy cow that lives a full life (even though it may be impractical economically, like you said). In that sense, though, it's still possible to have a happy cow up until the time you kill it for food. But of course when you're feeding millions of people, concessions have to be made and of course, one of the first things to go is usually the animal's welfare.
Man, this is kind of depressing.
Yeah but what I'm saying is that while in theory it might be possible to do it all humanely, that it isn't possible in reality, and that it isn't being done humanely, and you can either let that bother you or you can accept that your status as being at the top of the food chain grants you certain liberties, one of which being that you get to eat whatever your race can kill. That's only natural.
What's not natural, and what I consider immoral on the basis of that, is the choice of some to use animals unnecessarily and unjustifiably. Like as an ornament so as to encourage the popularity and sale of a new video game.
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You don't generally keep full carcasses in a meat locker. You butcher and clean them first.
This was a goat that would have been butchered for normal goat use, like meat for people or dogs or whatever, but instead Sony says "give us the whole thing, plz, just kill it and gut it. We'll party and bring it back for disposal." Which, for the most part, is ethically no different than them going up on a hill and slitting a goat's throat for fun.
They do keep whole frozen animals in meat lockers. Hell, they show the Myth Busters go to butchers all the time and picking a whole frozen dead pig from the huge frozen whole dead pig locker.
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"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
This is where it's kind of tough to draw the line in my mind. I guess it depends on what you are concerned with: whether you're killing the animals or whether they are mistreated while they are alive (or both). All I was trying to say is it's completely possible to eat cheese and still have a happy cow that lives a full life (even though it may be impractical economically, like you said). In that sense, though, it's still possible to have a happy cow up until the time you kill it for food. But of course when you're feeding millions of people, concessions have to be made and of course, one of the first things to go is usually the animal's welfare.
Man, this is kind of depressing.
Yeah but what I'm saying is that while in theory it might be possible to do it all humanely, that it isn't possible in reality, and that it isn't being done humanely, and you can either let that bother you or you can accept that your status as being at the top of the food chain grants you certain liberties, one of which being that you get to eat whatever your race can kill. That's only natural.
What's not natural, and what I consider immoral on the basis of that, is the choice of some to use animals unnecessarily and unjustifiably. Like as an ornament so as to encourage the popularity and sale of a new video game.
I actually agree completely on your second paragraph. But of course, this kind of conversation starts to edge over into the ethics of using dead animals for other things, such as food or clothing. Personally I feel that being at the top of the food chain gives us the responsibility to respect the animals we eat rather than just accepting the liberty to eat whatever we can kill. For instance, I wouldn't feel bad about hunting an animal and eating it, but I don't feel nearly as comfortable with having huge farms devoted to mass-producing animals solely intended for our consumption. But then again, sometimes I end up being an apologist neo-hippie that wants to leave as small of an imprint on the planet as possible.
I'm not vegetarian, but I would think that a quick justification would be that dairy products don't kill the animal you get them from, and you aren't required to mistreat them (though I suspect it happens all the same).
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
This is where it's kind of tough to draw the line in my mind. I guess it depends on what you are concerned with: whether you're killing the animals or whether they are mistreated while they are alive (or both). All I was trying to say is it's completely possible to eat cheese and still have a happy cow that lives a full life (even though it may be impractical economically, like you said). In that sense, though, it's still possible to have a happy cow up until the time you kill it for food. But of course when you're feeding millions of people, concessions have to be made and of course, one of the first things to go is usually the animal's welfare.
Man, this is kind of depressing.
Especially if you live in California. They have happy cows. The TV tells me.
They're very happy. Of course, they live in the exact same conditions - they just get better drugs
This is the first thread where I've seen nobody come in and act like an expert in the "field." C'mon, can't anybody pretend to be a butcher and put this shit to rest? A father that was a butcher? A cow puncher? Something?
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This is modern Greece were' talking about.
stop stereotyping the Greeks.
Very true, I agree. But the mistreatment is the same. I am just resentful and pissy about anyone who pretends that just because you eat it instead of fondle it at the end, that somehow negates the processes it went through to get there.
There's a pretty big difference there.
There's also a huge difference between killing an animal to promote a videogame and killing an animal for food. One can be easily considered a necessity, the other can't.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
How is meat a necessity?
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Yet vegetarians are far healthier then your average meat eater. Oh and Quarn is far cheaper then meat and pretty nutritious.
You make it sound like some Sony suits went to the mountains with some press, found a goat, chopped its head off, went "God of War, WOOOOO!", then tossed the goat in a dumpster.
The goat wasn't killed to promote a video game. The goat was bought dead from a butcher and was used in a party that promoted a video game. A themed party that somewhat matched the theme of the game they were promoting. There was more to this event then a dead goat. And the goat was later used as food, although not at that event.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
No meat eaters are far healthier than your average vegetarian. Nyah. Now come back with something resembling proof of your claim, because I'm looking at the members of the world's armed forces and the leagues of professional athletes and I'm not seeing a lot of vegans in the crowd.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Vegetarians aren't healthier than normal people.
I think he was basing it on there are more obese meat eaters then there are obese vegetarians. Although true, it's a rather silly way to look at it.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
Oh so this goat was just sittin' there all headless because you know the butcher normally just stocks headless goats just in case.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
There are also a lot more malnourished and anemic vegetarians, and I don't know about you guys, but I've seen a pretty wide array of obese vegetarians myself. It's not hard to get fat when you use vegetarianism as an excuse to slam back the potato chips.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
The Oxford Vegetarian Study is a prospective study of 6000 vegetarians and 5000 nonvegetarian control subjects recruited in the United Kingdom between 1980 and 1984. Cross-sectional analyses of study data showed that vegans had lower total- and LDL-cholesterol concentrations than did meat eaters; vegetarians and fish eaters had intermediate and similar values. Meat and cheese consumption were positively associated, and dietary fiber intake was inversely associated, with total-cholesterol concentration in both men and women. After 12 y of follow-up, all-cause mortality in the whole cohort was roughly half that in the population of England and Wales (standardized mortality ratio, 0.46; 95% CI, 0.42, 0.51). After adjusting for smoking, body mass index, and social class, death rates were lower in non-meat-eaters than in meat eaters for each of the mortality endpoints studied [relative risks and 95% CIs: 0.80 (0. 65, 0.99) for all causes of death, 0.72 (0.47, 1.10) for ischemic heart disease, and 0.61 (0.44, 0.84) for all malignant neoplasms]. Mortality from ischemic heart disease was also positively associated with estimated intakes of total animal fat, saturated animal fat, and dietary cholesterol. Other analyses showed that non-meat-eaters had only half the risk of meat eaters of requiring an emergency appendectomy, and that vegans in Britain may be at risk for iodine deficiency. Thus, the health of vegetarians in this study is generally good and compares favorably with that of the nonvegetarian control subjects. Larger studies are needed to examine rates of specific cancers and other diseases among vegetarians.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10479226&dopt=Abstract
Just in case? Do you know what a butcher does?!
And yes, it was probably just chill'n in back. Probably in some sort of "meat locker".
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
Using a 22 year old study to make a point about current health trends isn't a good arguing point.
Also, don't give me any fucking sass about eating meat if you're going to eat dairy. I'd love to see the ethical justification for eating cheese when it's immoral to eat beef.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Actually I don't see it being very likely that a butcher would be storing a large number of goat carcasses with only the heads removed, but otherwise fully intact.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
And the whole "vegans are healthier" is bullshit. It's a blanket statement that is not true across the board. Case in point: My little sister went vegan for two years and it affected her iron count, causing her to have anemia. While she is not the standard, her choice to go vegan has now caused a health related issue she has to be aware of on a daily basis.
It was the first study that came up on google, if I spent the time I'm sure I could find a much better and more recent study. My argument, however, holds up fine. Apparently you can live healthily on a vegetarian diet which was my original point. Eating meat for the vast majority of people is completely unnecessary.
p.s. I'm a meat eater, my point was that I see very little difference between cutting a goats head of and eating its deep fried corpse and simply cutting its head off and using it as a centerpiece.
This was a goat that would have been butchered for normal goat use, like meat for people or dogs or whatever, but instead Sony says "give us the whole thing, plz, just kill it and gut it. We'll party and bring it back for disposal." Which, for the most part, is ethically no different than them going up on a hill and slitting a goat's throat for fun.
This was just stupid. If the white and black woman wrestling was "racist," then this sure as hell must be something offensive. It can't be rationalized away. Topless women was really all that was necessary, anyway.
P.S. About half of the vegetarians and vegans that I know are quite overweight. Anecdote ftw.
Maybe he does. This is in Greece not fuckin america.
stop being so narrow minded about foreign traditions and practices. just cause a headless goat is offensive to you dont try and change the views of others.
Actually, it's really not. To run a dairy farm you need to pull in a lot of money on a consistent basis to keep afloat, farming carries a lot of expenses. To keep the milk and cheese production where you need it to be, you need to drug the animals and keep them producing. This essentially amounts to the mass, constant rape of dairy cows, who are inevitably confined to small, cramped living areas because let's face it land costs money. The level of competition and razor thin profit margins available from farming pretty much doom any farm animal to pretty squalid conditions.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
I'm not American, stop being so narrow minded and assuming that anyone posting on the message board of an American web comic would be an American themselves.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
It really depends on the butcher and their clients. Even so, maybe they just said "Goat please, hold the head". At that point, I don't think the fully intact frozen dead goat is going to care. He probably didn't even feel it.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
This is where it's kind of tough to draw the line in my mind. I guess it depends on what you are concerned with: whether you're killing the animals or whether they are mistreated while they are alive (or both). All I was trying to say is it's completely possible to eat cheese and still have a happy cow that lives a full life (even though it may be impractical economically, like you said). In that sense, though, it's still possible to have a happy cow up until the time you kill it for food. But of course when you're feeding millions of people, concessions have to be made and of course, one of the first things to go is usually the animal's welfare.
Man, this is kind of depressing.
It's not feasible on my budget in my part of the world, so meat still gets to be called a necessity.
The difference isn't really that subtle though. Using the corpse of something as sustenance can be justified, using it as entertainment is wasteful and barbaric. And I don't care who's offended by that, if you're going to insist that because I'm not Greek I wouldn't know what's barbaric, I'm going to insist that you're stupid. And that most modern day Greeks would probably be offended by your insistence that this is totally normal shit over there and that everyone loves a sacrificial goat in Greece.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Especially if you live in California. They have happy cows. The TV tells me.
I just dont understand where you are going with this.
So I'll leave you to it.
Yeah but what I'm saying is that while in theory it might be possible to do it all humanely, that it isn't possible in reality, and that it isn't being done humanely, and you can either let that bother you or you can accept that your status as being at the top of the food chain grants you certain liberties, one of which being that you get to eat whatever your race can kill. That's only natural.
What's not natural, and what I consider immoral on the basis of that, is the choice of some to use animals unnecessarily and unjustifiably. Like as an ornament so as to encourage the popularity and sale of a new video game.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
They do keep whole frozen animals in meat lockers. Hell, they show the Myth Busters go to butchers all the time and picking a whole frozen dead pig from the huge frozen whole dead pig locker.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
I actually agree completely on your second paragraph. But of course, this kind of conversation starts to edge over into the ethics of using dead animals for other things, such as food or clothing. Personally I feel that being at the top of the food chain gives us the responsibility to respect the animals we eat rather than just accepting the liberty to eat whatever we can kill. For instance, I wouldn't feel bad about hunting an animal and eating it, but I don't feel nearly as comfortable with having huge farms devoted to mass-producing animals solely intended for our consumption. But then again, sometimes I end up being an apologist neo-hippie that wants to leave as small of an imprint on the planet as possible.
They're very happy. Of course, they live in the exact same conditions - they just get better drugs