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I don't really have any go-to reviewers. I like Red Letter Media's treatment of the prequels because (despite the venomous fanstalker backdrop) they provide some very concrete criticisms. I also tend to agree with the Honest Trailer guys, and I'm about 50-50 with the How It Should Have Ended guys. Anyway Honest Trailer News had a round-table discussion on it that I'll spoiler below (the talk is full spoilers btw), which I thought was interesting because it somewhat mirrors most of the conversations in this thread.
The title of the video is "Is The Last Jedi the Most Divisive Star Wars Movie Ever" and they don't really provide any 'hard' evidence in support of their claim, and I'm honestly not sure how one can. I do think however that these arguments we're having are playing out everywhere fans gather. I don't think there is one central conflict to these arguments: they really run the gamete. But the fact that we're all having them I think does prove the point that this movie is quite divisive, which I guess is to be expected when
you create a movie that deconstructs its own premise had relies heavily on subversion of expectations.
I'm pretty excited to see what the HISHE guys and RLM guys have to say; for once I'm super stoked to hop on the elliptical for an hour.
RLM put up their half in the bag on it earlier today.
They were not impressed, overall.
It is definitely worth the watch, regardless of what your perspective on TLJ was.
And I can't think of a single reviewer on the tubewebs that I am more than 50/50 on for the most part.
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
I find that the more I think about TLJ the more I think that almost every scene is great on its own, and yet the overarching narrative just doesn't feel tight. Like I was loving everything I was seeing, but I oscillated between feeling like it was taking a while for anything to happen and feeling like way too much was happening and I was missing things.
Maybe it will be one of those movies that gets better every time you watch it and you can start to pick up on all of the interweaving sub plots playing out, and can focus more attention on what's happening instead of being caught up in the moment.
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
+4
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I find that the more I think about TLJ the more I think that almost every scene is great on its own, and yet the overarching narrative just doesn't feel tight. Like I was loving everything I was seeing, but I oscillated between feeling like it was taking a while for anything to happen and feeling like way too much was happening and I was missing things.
Maybe it will be one of those movies that gets better every time you watch it and you can start to pick up on all of the interweaving sub plots playing out, and can focus more attention on what's happening instead of being caught up in the moment.
Watching it again this weekend.
I've heard it's a movie that really fleshes out on a 2nd watch.
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
Poe is military and should understand chain of command, they weren't sure how they got tracked so likely tried to keep the evac as hush hush as possible until the actual evac. He's a hothead and pulled a mutiny when he found out the actual plan. I dont think that would have changed if he was told it up front. Then at that point you would have had Poe in control of the ship for much longer and possibly jeopardizing the refueling of the transports. With how things turned out he still fucked up and the word of transport plan got out to someone who shouldn't have known about it. Of course like everything in every film ever if folks just sat the fuck down and explained everything calmly all would have been well, but that doesnt happen in movies so..
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
Poe is military and should understand chain of command, they weren't sure how they got tracked so likely tried to keep the evac as hush hush as possible until the actual evac. He's a hothead and pulled a mutiny when he found out the actual plan. I dont think that would have changed if he was told it up front. Then at that point you would have had Poe in control of the ship for much longer and possibly jeopardizing the refueling of the transports. With how things turned out he still fucked up and the word of transport plan got out to someone who shouldn't have known about it. Of course like everything in every film ever if folks just sat the fuck down and explained everything calmly all would have been well, but that doesnt happen in movies so..
frankly that issue could've been solved with one line
Say they're keeping the plan secret until the last moment because they think a spy is how they're being tracked
I find that the more I think about TLJ the more I think that almost every scene is great on its own, and yet the overarching narrative just doesn't feel tight. Like I was loving everything I was seeing, but I oscillated between feeling like it was taking a while for anything to happen and feeling like way too much was happening and I was missing things.
Maybe it will be one of those movies that gets better every time you watch it and you can start to pick up on all of the interweaving sub plots playing out, and can focus more attention on what's happening instead of being caught up in the moment.
The whole casino subplot doesn't help with this. There has to be some way to have those character development beats happen throughout the course of the main conflict instead of basically stopping the whole thing for five minutes. It detracts from the tension with being under withering enemy fire while the fuel ticks down.
Also, in regards to Poe. He didn't actually know about the part where they were going to hold up in an old rebel installation, only that they were abandoning ship. Also also, you don't have to spill the beans to someone to emphasize that there's more to a plan or situation than what is being broadly reported. This is standard middle management stuff. I myself have had to convey half-information on multiple occasions to assuage worries while also not divulging any actual information.
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
Poe is military and should understand chain of command, they weren't sure how they got tracked so likely tried to keep the evac as hush hush as possible until the actual evac. He's a hothead and pulled a mutiny when he found out the actual plan. I dont think that would have changed if he was told it up front. Then at that point you would have had Poe in control of the ship for much longer and possibly jeopardizing the refueling of the transports. With how things turned out he still fucked up and the word of transport plan got out to someone who shouldn't have known about it. Of course like everything in every film ever if folks just sat the fuck down and explained everything calmly all would have been well, but that doesnt happen in movies so..
frankly that issue could've been solved with one line
Say they're keeping the plan secret until the last moment because they think a spy is how they're being tracked
Nah
I'm thinking Poe Finn and Rose still go off all half cocked on that situation.
I find that the more I think about TLJ the more I think that almost every scene is great on its own, and yet the overarching narrative just doesn't feel tight. Like I was loving everything I was seeing, but I oscillated between feeling like it was taking a while for anything to happen and feeling like way too much was happening and I was missing things.
Maybe it will be one of those movies that gets better every time you watch it and you can start to pick up on all of the interweaving sub plots playing out, and can focus more attention on what's happening instead of being caught up in the moment.
The whole casino subplot doesn't help with this. There has to be some way to have those character development beats happen throughout the course of the main conflict instead of basically stopping the whole thing for five minutes. It detracts from the tension with being under withering enemy fire while the fuel ticks down.
This is true. But the benefit of showing the wealth disparity on display there and all of Rose's stuff was so good I think it outweighs the fact that the motivation for going to the casino seemed really hamfisted. I hope the groundwork there really pays off in the next movie. Because it gives a sense of what might lead to a wider rebellion and why we should be sympathetic to said rebellion.
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
Poe is military and should understand chain of command, they weren't sure how they got tracked so likely tried to keep the evac as hush hush as possible until the actual evac. He's a hothead and pulled a mutiny when he found out the actual plan. I dont think that would have changed if he was told it up front. Then at that point you would have had Poe in control of the ship for much longer and possibly jeopardizing the refueling of the transports. With how things turned out he still fucked up and the word of transport plan got out to someone who shouldn't have known about it. Of course like everything in every film ever if folks just sat the fuck down and explained everything calmly all would have been well, but that doesnt happen in movies so..
frankly that issue could've been solved with one line
Say they're keeping the plan secret until the last moment because they think a spy is how they're being tracked
Nah
I'm thinking Poe Finn and Rose still go off all half cocked on that situation.
Because the most likely spy is...Finn.
Poe is pretty high on the list too.
One of the few survivors of the Dreadnought run? Also pushed really hard for the Dreadnought run to continue after being ordered back?
Only survivor to luckily not be in the landing bay when it got hit?
Now running around demanding to know what the plans are for the immediate future?
Any one of those would be suspicious, but all of them back to back?
While true as far as we've seen, Ahsoka's entire deal is being a force user that told the regular Jedi to piss off, she's gonna go do her own thing. Everything about her character is a declaration against the light side as the Jedi viewed it. And while nearly all of them die she flourishes.
Which reminds me, I need to get caught up on Rebels.
I wouldn't really phrase it like that, it's that Ahsoka follows the light side, but not the Jedi code.
TLJ
Which actually quite closely echoes something Luke mentions - The Light Side will always exist, it doesn't need the Jedi, and it doesn't come from the Jedi.
Bendu was more like a force of nature, an elemental. He was the river, it might feed you one year, and then flood and wipe out your house the next year, but the river isn't good or evil for doing either of those things.
All of Bendu's lessons were about self-knowledge, internal honesty. He trains Kanan, but you get the feeling he would've been just as willing to train a Sith, if they had thought to ask. The point of his training is for you to know yourself and what you want... But he doesn't care whether that is good or evil.
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
Poe is military and should understand chain of command, they weren't sure how they got tracked so likely tried to keep the evac as hush hush as possible until the actual evac. He's a hothead and pulled a mutiny when he found out the actual plan. I dont think that would have changed if he was told it up front. Then at that point you would have had Poe in control of the ship for much longer and possibly jeopardizing the refueling of the transports. With how things turned out he still fucked up and the word of transport plan got out to someone who shouldn't have known about it. Of course like everything in every film ever if folks just sat the fuck down and explained everything calmly all would have been well, but that doesnt happen in movies so..
frankly that issue could've been solved with one line
Say they're keeping the plan secret until the last moment because they think a spy is how they're being tracked
Nah
I'm thinking Poe Finn and Rose still go off all half cocked on that situation.
Because the most likely spy is...Finn.
Poe is pretty high on the list too.
One of the few survivors of the Dreadnought run? Also pushed really hard for the Dreadnought run to continue after being ordered back?
Only survivor to luckily not be in the landing bay when it got hit?
Now running around demanding to know what the plans are for the immediate future?
Any one of those would be suspicious, but all of them back to back?
To add to that TFA spoilers
was captured by Kylo Ren, mysteriously escaped after being mind tortured by him.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
If these goalposts moved more I'd suspect they were on a giant rumba, HamHamJ.
He murders a bunch of people because someone insulted him IIRC. I'm not sure crazy psychopath doesn't apply just because he seems nice most of the time.
He destroys people harming his planet and the creatures he protects.
Have... have you watched any of these things? Or is it just misconstruing the episodes to support your narrative?
The Rebels were harming his planet?
Yes! That's the whole point of the Bendu arc. He didn't want them there, he warned them that if they stayed they would bring their war, and then they did and it led to the planet getting an orbital bombardment.
It's not even a context thing. He specifically says all those things at various points in the season.
I don't think they have any moral culpability for the actions of the evil facists enslaving the galaxy and being like "ain't my problem, gtfo or I'll kill you" puts you on the side of the space nazis.
Uh... ok? It's not something I'm inventing or a point of view. You might not agree with it, which is fine. But that's how it happened.
It is a point of view. The Bendu is not an example of the dark side not turning you evil because he is in fact evil.
Citation for the bolded please
Apathy and indifference to the plight of other people is evil. Also murdering people.
Wow I do not know anything about The Bendu but I do not agree with the bolded. It sure super sucks and I'm not a fan but it is not just flatly evil.
If these goalposts moved more I'd suspect they were on a giant rumba, HamHamJ.
He murders a bunch of people because someone insulted him IIRC. I'm not sure crazy psychopath doesn't apply just because he seems nice most of the time.
He destroys people harming his planet and the creatures he protects.
Have... have you watched any of these things? Or is it just misconstruing the episodes to support your narrative?
The Rebels were harming his planet?
Yes! That's the whole point of the Bendu arc. He didn't want them there, he warned them that if they stayed they would bring their war, and then they did and it led to the planet getting an orbital bombardment.
It's not even a context thing. He specifically says all those things at various points in the season.
I don't think they have any moral culpability for the actions of the evil facists enslaving the galaxy and being like "ain't my problem, gtfo or I'll kill you" puts you on the side of the space nazis.
Uh... ok? It's not something I'm inventing or a point of view. You might not agree with it, which is fine. But that's how it happened.
It is a point of view. The Bendu is not an example of the dark side not turning you evil because he is in fact evil.
Citation for the bolded please
Apathy and indifference to the plight of other people is evil. Also murdering people.
I wonder if the setup in this movie (Canto Bight) is in response to
The prequels, where the Jedi apparently had no issue with slavery. Guardians of peace and justice, my ass!
Right? Like not only did they have no issue with it neither did freaking anakin post becoming a freaking jedi...
They had an issue with it, just that half the point of their teachings were that you couldn't go around just forcing the universe to be better.
The Republic deserves more blame for allowing it to flourish in the rim worlds and areas outside Republic space, but given the nature of the Jedi it seems wrong to blame them for not going out and solving the worlds problems, when Anakin's desire to do so is part of what brought him down.
I wonder if the setup in this movie (Canto Bight) is in response to
The prequels, where the Jedi apparently had no issue with slavery. Guardians of peace and justice, my ass!
Right? Like not only did they have no issue with it neither did freaking anakin post becoming a freaking jedi...
They had an issue with it, just that half the point of their teachings were that you couldn't go around just forcing the universe to be better.
The Republic deserves more blame for allowing it to flourish in the rim worlds and areas outside Republic space, but given the nature of the Jedi it seems wrong to blame them for not going out and solving the worlds problems, when Anakin's desire to do so is part of what brought him down.
They defend the republic, they allow slavery to exist when they could do something about it. Anakin never even bothered to go back and set his mother free, he just left her to die in the desert like so much forgotten garbage.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Anyone else think there might be an early draft of the script where
there is no Rose? That it's Finn and Poe who go to the casino world where they have an adventure together and bond more. Then Poe opens up about how he was the one who came from the small mining colony that the Empire blew up and ever since he's been obsessed with hurting the Empire as payback. Then when Finn is about to sacrfice himself, Poe is the one who crashes into him to save him. And it's Poe in the end that says that it's not about hurting them but protecting who we love and Poe is the one who kisses Finn?
Would have made a more complete arc for Poe I think. The movie starts with him getting a bunch of people killed in order to blow up the dreadnaught and Leia scolding him about how it was more important to protect the rebels than to blow up one ship. Would have made a nice bookend if like by the end of the movie Poe is the one who says that it was more important to protect those he loved than to destroy what he hated.
The conversations between Rey and Ben actually made me take the potential of her turning to the Dark side seriously.
Rey and Ben are both dealing with parental abandonment both perceived (Ben) and real (Rey). Both seemed to seek out new parental figures. Rey expressed a lot of resentment towards Ben for having two real parents who loved him only to throw it away.
I loved Luke for most of the movie. Even the color scheme of the film seemed to indicate that for all his flaws, Luke was ready for the next step. Whereas most of the film was a monochromatic black and white and red, Luke lived in a world of green and blue and grey and brown. In his conversations with Rey, Luke showed that he understood that the Jedi’s understanding of the Force was incomplete. Luke’s failures hung over him, but Rey showed up and offered him a way forward.
I hated how things ended.
Ultimately, this is a movie about failure, and how people respond to failure. And by killing Luke off, it took the easy route to resolving Luke’s arc. Luke was once the New Hope, he ended the Sith, was the first of the new Jedi, and all that rot. And then he failed. I’m entirely fine with those aspects of his arc. But in the end, he basically just gets trotted out as a hero one last time, saves a small handful of people, and then keels over dead.
I found that to be a seriously disappointing way for him to pass on, because he never really gets a chance to try to move on from his failure. He sidesteps the issue. Moving on, growing, would be to take what he’s learned and to rededicate himself to training the next generation of Jedi. He addresses his failure in his duel with Ren, but he never does anything about it. Like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him, he died and left his problems to the next generation.
I would have liked the movie a whole lot better if Luke had survived, and the last scene had shown Luke teaching the kid with the broom.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Anyone else think there might be an early draft of the script where
there is no Rose? That it's Finn and Poe who go to the casino world where they have an adventure together and bond more. Then Poe opens up about how he was the one who came from the small mining colony that the Empire blew up and ever since he's been obsessed with hurting the Empire as payback. Then when Finn is about to sacrfice himself, Poe is the one who crashes into him to save him. And it's Poe in the end that says that it's not about hurting them but protecting who we love and Poe is the one who kisses Finn?
Would have made a more complete arc for Poe I think. The movie starts with him getting a bunch of people killed in order to blow up the dreadnaught and Leia scolding him about how it was more important to protect the rebels than to blow up one ship. Would have made a nice bookend if like by the end of the movie Poe is the one who says that it was more important to protect those he loved than to destroy what he hated.
I wonder if the setup in this movie (Canto Bight) is in response to
The prequels, where the Jedi apparently had no issue with slavery. Guardians of peace and justice, my ass!
Right? Like not only did they have no issue with it neither did freaking anakin post becoming a freaking jedi...
They had an issue with it, just that half the point of their teachings were that you couldn't go around just forcing the universe to be better.
The Republic deserves more blame for allowing it to flourish in the rim worlds and areas outside Republic space, but given the nature of the Jedi it seems wrong to blame them for not going out and solving the worlds problems, when Anakin's desire to do so is part of what brought him down.
They defend the republic, they allow slavery to exist when they could do something about it. Anakin never even bothered to go back and set his mother free, he just left her to die in the desert like so much forgotten garbage.
And we can blame that on the Order and their asinine "no attachments" policy.
If these goalposts moved more I'd suspect they were on a giant rumba, HamHamJ.
He murders a bunch of people because someone insulted him IIRC. I'm not sure crazy psychopath doesn't apply just because he seems nice most of the time.
He destroys people harming his planet and the creatures he protects.
Have... have you watched any of these things? Or is it just misconstruing the episodes to support your narrative?
The Rebels were harming his planet?
Yes! That's the whole point of the Bendu arc. He didn't want them there, he warned them that if they stayed they would bring their war, and then they did and it led to the planet getting an orbital bombardment.
It's not even a context thing. He specifically says all those things at various points in the season.
I don't think they have any moral culpability for the actions of the evil facists enslaving the galaxy and being like "ain't my problem, gtfo or I'll kill you" puts you on the side of the space nazis.
Uh... ok? It's not something I'm inventing or a point of view. You might not agree with it, which is fine. But that's how it happened.
It is a point of view. The Bendu is not an example of the dark side not turning you evil because he is in fact evil.
Citation for the bolded please
Apathy and indifference to the plight of other people is evil. Also murdering people.
Then the Jedi themselves are evil.
Right.
Wasn't that kind of the point of the prequels? That the Jedi, through inaction and arbitrary upholding and enforcement of vague ideals that had more to do with self preservation and self interest, did as much, or more, to lead to the stagnation of the republic, it's downfall, and the rise of the Empire, EDIT: than the Sith?
Palpatine and Vader were the "bad guys" but they were only there and able to be there because of the Jedi.
The Empire didn't need to go through and remake society; just lay claim to what already existed.
Paving roads to hell and all that.
If the light and the dark are two sides of the same coin, then that coin has the same face on both sides.
The conversations between Rey and Ben actually made me take the potential of her turning to the Dark side seriously.
Rey and Ben are both dealing with parental abandonment both perceived (Ben) and real (Rey). Both seemed to seek out new parental figures. Rey expressed a lot of resentment towards Ben for having two real parents who loved him only to throw it away.
IX Speculation:
Rey's definitely going to be tempted like Luke was in ROTJ.
In fact, I suspect the final duel between her and Kylo will be a lot more gray than light and dark. What will save her in end is her friends- the one thing she has that Kylo doesn't.
One thing I really dig about this trilogy in light of both EUs:
Kylo's refusal to turn back is finally putting some meat on Yoda's claim that the dark side is forever.
In the old EU, almost every major Jedi character had a brush with the dark side, and nearly all of them came back. After awhile, falling started to feel like a teenage rebellion. The new EU isn't quite as bad so far, but there have been shades of it with Ezra.
My favorite twist in TLJ is that Kylo saw redemption and unambiguously thew it aside.
Anyone else think there might be an early draft of the script where
there is no Rose? That it's Finn and Poe who go to the casino world where they have an adventure together and bond more. Then Poe opens up about how he was the one who came from the small mining colony that the Empire blew up and ever since he's been obsessed with hurting the Empire as payback. Then when Finn is about to sacrfice himself, Poe is the one who crashes into him to save him. And it's Poe in the end that says that it's not about hurting them but protecting who we love and Poe is the one who kisses Finn?
Would have made a more complete arc for Poe I think. The movie starts with him getting a bunch of people killed in order to blow up the dreadnaught and Leia scolding him about how it was more important to protect the rebels than to blow up one ship. Would have made a nice bookend if like by the end of the movie Poe is the one who says that it was more important to protect those he loved than to destroy what he hated.
According to that article it wasn't the same arc at all compared to what was in the movie
Come to think of it, was there even an arc?
Poe gets 90% of the rebels killed because he can't follow orders and there's basically zero acknowledgement of this, not even by Poe. That's kind of where I thought they might go with the whole legend vs. human theme they had going with Luke.
+1
minor incidentyou can't swim whenyou've been dead a hundred yearsRegistered User, Transition Teamregular
Anyone else think there might be an early draft of the script where
there is no Rose? That it's Finn and Poe who go to the casino world where they have an adventure together and bond more. Then Poe opens up about how he was the one who came from the small mining colony that the Empire blew up and ever since he's been obsessed with hurting the Empire as payback. Then when Finn is about to sacrfice himself, Poe is the one who crashes into him to save him. And it's Poe in the end that says that it's not about hurting them but protecting who we love and Poe is the one who kisses Finn?
Would have made a more complete arc for Poe I think. The movie starts with him getting a bunch of people killed in order to blow up the dreadnaught and Leia scolding him about how it was more important to protect the rebels than to blow up one ship. Would have made a nice bookend if like by the end of the movie Poe is the one who says that it was more important to protect those he loved than to destroy what he hated.
According to that article it wasn't the same arc at all compared to what was in the movie
Come to think of it, was there even an arc?
Poe gets 90% of the rebels killed because he can't follow orders and there's basically zero acknowledgement of this, not even by Poe. That's kind of where I thought they might go with the whole legend vs. human theme they had going with Luke.
Did you miss the bit at the end where he's confronted by
a similar situation to the bombing run at the start of the film, but this time makes the smart call to have his squad pull out?
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
+3
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Anyone else think there might be an early draft of the script where
there is no Rose? That it's Finn and Poe who go to the casino world where they have an adventure together and bond more. Then Poe opens up about how he was the one who came from the small mining colony that the Empire blew up and ever since he's been obsessed with hurting the Empire as payback. Then when Finn is about to sacrfice himself, Poe is the one who crashes into him to save him. And it's Poe in the end that says that it's not about hurting them but protecting who we love and Poe is the one who kisses Finn?
Would have made a more complete arc for Poe I think. The movie starts with him getting a bunch of people killed in order to blow up the dreadnaught and Leia scolding him about how it was more important to protect the rebels than to blow up one ship. Would have made a nice bookend if like by the end of the movie Poe is the one who says that it was more important to protect those he loved than to destroy what he hated.
According to that article it wasn't the same arc at all compared to what was in the movie
Come to think of it, was there even an arc?
Poe gets 90% of the rebels killed because he can't follow orders and there's basically zero acknowledgement of this, not even by Poe. That's kind of where I thought they might go with the whole legend vs. human theme they had going with Luke.
If these goalposts moved more I'd suspect they were on a giant rumba, HamHamJ.
He murders a bunch of people because someone insulted him IIRC. I'm not sure crazy psychopath doesn't apply just because he seems nice most of the time.
He destroys people harming his planet and the creatures he protects.
Have... have you watched any of these things? Or is it just misconstruing the episodes to support your narrative?
The Rebels were harming his planet?
Yes! That's the whole point of the Bendu arc. He didn't want them there, he warned them that if they stayed they would bring their war, and then they did and it led to the planet getting an orbital bombardment.
It's not even a context thing. He specifically says all those things at various points in the season.
I don't think they have any moral culpability for the actions of the evil facists enslaving the galaxy and being like "ain't my problem, gtfo or I'll kill you" puts you on the side of the space nazis.
Uh... ok? It's not something I'm inventing or a point of view. You might not agree with it, which is fine. But that's how it happened.
It is a point of view. The Bendu is not an example of the dark side not turning you evil because he is in fact evil.
Citation for the bolded please
Apathy and indifference to the plight of other people is evil. Also murdering people.
Then the Jedi themselves are evil.
Right.
Wasn't that kind of the point of the prequels? That the Jedi, through inaction and arbitrary upholding and enforcement of vague ideals that had more to do with self preservation and self interest, did as much, or more, to lead to the stagnation of the republic, it's downfall, and the rise of the Empire?
Palpatine and Vader were the "bad guys" but they were only there and able to be there because of the Jedi.
The Empire didn't need to go through and remake society; just lay claim to what already existed.
Paving roads to hell and all that.
If the light and the dark are two sides of the same coin, then that coin has the same face on both sides.
That works right up until you get to the whole "destroying planets and enslaving vast swaths of the galaxy" thing. The Jedi weren't perfect by any means, but a direct comparison to the Sith falls flat.
That's my problem with applying both sides logic to Star Wars, because one is invariably worse than the other.
Also, the Jedi didn't wipe out slavery (or crime, or corruption, or any number of awful things) because they practice restraint. And, as this series has shown over and over again, power without restraint is tyranny.
If these goalposts moved more I'd suspect they were on a giant rumba, HamHamJ.
He murders a bunch of people because someone insulted him IIRC. I'm not sure crazy psychopath doesn't apply just because he seems nice most of the time.
He destroys people harming his planet and the creatures he protects.
Have... have you watched any of these things? Or is it just misconstruing the episodes to support your narrative?
The Rebels were harming his planet?
Yes! That's the whole point of the Bendu arc. He didn't want them there, he warned them that if they stayed they would bring their war, and then they did and it led to the planet getting an orbital bombardment.
It's not even a context thing. He specifically says all those things at various points in the season.
I don't think they have any moral culpability for the actions of the evil facists enslaving the galaxy and being like "ain't my problem, gtfo or I'll kill you" puts you on the side of the space nazis.
Uh... ok? It's not something I'm inventing or a point of view. You might not agree with it, which is fine. But that's how it happened.
It is a point of view. The Bendu is not an example of the dark side not turning you evil because he is in fact evil.
Citation for the bolded please
Apathy and indifference to the plight of other people is evil. Also murdering people.
Then the Jedi themselves are evil.
Right.
Wasn't that kind of the point of the prequels? That the Jedi, through inaction and arbitrary upholding and enforcement of vague ideals that had more to do with self preservation and self interest, did as much, or more, to lead to the stagnation of the republic, it's downfall, and the rise of the Empire?
Palpatine and Vader were the "bad guys" but they were only there and able to be there because of the Jedi.
The Empire didn't need to go through and remake society; just lay claim to what already existed.
Paving roads to hell and all that.
If the light and the dark are two sides of the same coin, then that coin has the same face on both sides.
That works right up until you get to the whole "destroying planets and enslaving vast swaths of the galaxy" thing. The Jedi weren't perfect by any means, but a direct comparison to the Sith falls flat.
That's my problem with applying both sides logic to Star Wars, because one is invariably worse than the other.
Also, the Jedi didn't wipe out slavery (or crime, or corruption, or any number of awful things) because they practice restraint. And, as this series has shown over and over again, power without restraint is tyranny.
If power without restraint is tyranny, and power with restraint leaves whole populations enslaved, abused, controlled, living in crime ridden areas, where those with money and power can use anyone else how they see fit, then there is no functional difference.
You're mistaking framing them the same as permissive of the dark side, when my point is the opposite.
Of course destroying planets is terrible.
But no more terrible than allowing likely far larger populations to remain enslaved or worse.
If an organization (government, jedi, whatever) have the power to prevent suffering and choose to let it continue, then they are complicit and are as culpable as the people physically holding the chains. The destruction of a planet is flashy and gets attention, but ultimately is no different than allowing disease and sickness to persist and flourish, when they could be stopped.
Fortunately in the real world it isn't a binary thing, and there is a spectrum of philosophical ideas that exist to test societal potential outside of these two extremes.
But I'm speaking specifically of the galaxy we're presented in the Star Wars movies; those extremes are reality and neither is better or worse than the other. They are both cancers and the Jedi are just as guilty for the state of things and the events that unfold, as the Emperor or any of his predecessors or students.
It is your fear of loss that becomes possession and jealousy. It is your fear of defeat that becomes anger and hatred.
The Dark Side comes from fear. It is born in fear. Fear is a loss of self-control, and the Dark Side is the antithesis of self-control. Those who start down its path lose control of themselves as the Dark Side twists their minds and forces them towards acts that release their anger and hatred indiscriminately.
The Dark Side is the imbalance. The Force is light and darkness but the Dark Side is not that.
This is what I mean when I say that
Rey’s success at the Cave was so amazing. “I should have felt trapped, afraid, panicked ...but I didn’t”. The Dark Side called to her, offered her knowledge, and Luke lost his shit about it - but then when she went down into the trap, the Dark Side threw everything it could at her to try and get her to take those first, fatal steps into fear, anger, hatred ...and she just said “so ...you don’t know who my parents are? Cool; I’m going to go back topside and dry off then, maybe find a blanket. Stupid mirror.” Perfect.
The problem I had with that scene
was the narration. It’s jarring as the only narration in Star Wars and it explains the scene to you as it’s happening. I don’t even get a chance to interpret what you’re showing on film because you’re just telling me what’s going on.
Dark side is Chaos, it's giving into fear, loss, rage, despair, hope, love enough that you just act. It's more powerful because there is nothing separating you from the Force, thought and action become one, and having become accustomed to this power it is very hard to draw back rather than to just let it flow over and relinquish control. Fall into the storm and lightening is at your fingertips, remake the world as it needs to be...
However civilisation isn't that, it's about resistance and control. Control of your own thoughts and of the others around you, and resistance to being controlled and to your own raw impulses. This is why the Light is balance.
The whole not telling Poe the plan thing didn't make a lick of goddamn sense. You keep someone with that much skill and that much pull with the crew in the loop. Especially if there is a non-zero chance of things going belly up. You don't leave him to his own devices. :P
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
Poe is military and should understand chain of command, they weren't sure how they got tracked so likely tried to keep the evac as hush hush as possible until the actual evac. He's a hothead and pulled a mutiny when he found out the actual plan. I dont think that would have changed if he was told it up front. Then at that point you would have had Poe in control of the ship for much longer and possibly jeopardizing the refueling of the transports. With how things turned out he still fucked up and the word of transport plan got out to someone who shouldn't have known about it. Of course like everything in every film ever if folks just sat the fuck down and explained everything calmly all would have been well, but that doesnt happen in movies so..
frankly that issue could've been solved with one line
Say they're keeping the plan secret until the last moment because they think a spy is how they're being tracked
Man, everything about KOTOR is so rad. And everything about TOR up till Fallen Empire is so awful.
And it also makes me sad we'll likely never get a Star Wars RPG like them again.
I'd love to see them get a graphical upgrade. I don't consider myself a graphics whore but they have not aged well visually, and they weren't even pretty when they came out. Atmospheric, though, granted. But gameplay, story, voice acting, soundtrack... they can all remain untouched. They're brilliant.
EDIT: Well... the UI is a bit clunky too. Doesn't need rebuilding, just a little streamlining.
If these goalposts moved more I'd suspect they were on a giant rumba, HamHamJ.
He murders a bunch of people because someone insulted him IIRC. I'm not sure crazy psychopath doesn't apply just because he seems nice most of the time.
He destroys people harming his planet and the creatures he protects.
Have... have you watched any of these things? Or is it just misconstruing the episodes to support your narrative?
The Rebels were harming his planet?
Yes! That's the whole point of the Bendu arc. He didn't want them there, he warned them that if they stayed they would bring their war, and then they did and it led to the planet getting an orbital bombardment.
It's not even a context thing. He specifically says all those things at various points in the season.
I don't think they have any moral culpability for the actions of the evil facists enslaving the galaxy and being like "ain't my problem, gtfo or I'll kill you" puts you on the side of the space nazis.
Uh... ok? It's not something I'm inventing or a point of view. You might not agree with it, which is fine. But that's how it happened.
It is a point of view. The Bendu is not an example of the dark side not turning you evil because he is in fact evil.
Citation for the bolded please
Apathy and indifference to the plight of other people is evil. Also murdering people.
Then the Jedi themselves are evil.
Right.
Wasn't that kind of the point of the prequels? That the Jedi, through inaction and arbitrary upholding and enforcement of vague ideals that had more to do with self preservation and self interest, did as much, or more, to lead to the stagnation of the republic, it's downfall, and the rise of the Empire?
Palpatine and Vader were the "bad guys" but they were only there and able to be there because of the Jedi.
The Empire didn't need to go through and remake society; just lay claim to what already existed.
Paving roads to hell and all that.
If the light and the dark are two sides of the same coin, then that coin has the same face on both sides.
That works right up until you get to the whole "destroying planets and enslaving vast swaths of the galaxy" thing. The Jedi weren't perfect by any means, but a direct comparison to the Sith falls flat.
That's my problem with applying both sides logic to Star Wars, because one is invariably worse than the other.
Also, the Jedi didn't wipe out slavery (or crime, or corruption, or any number of awful things) because they practice restraint. And, as this series has shown over and over again, power without restraint is tyranny.
If power without restraint is tyranny, and power with restraint leaves whole populations enslaved, abused, controlled, living in crime ridden areas, where those with money and power can use anyone else how they see fit, then there is no functional difference.
You're mistaking framing them the same as permissive of the dark side, when my point is the opposite.
Of course destroying planets is terrible.
But no more terrible than allowing likely far larger populations to remain enslaved or worse.
If an organization (government, jedi, whatever) have the power to prevent suffering and choose to let it continue, then they are complicit and are as culpable as the people physically holding the chains. The destruction of a planet is flashy and gets attention, but ultimately is no different than allowing disease and sickness to persist and flourish, when they could be stopped.
Fortunately in the real world it isn't a binary thing, and there is a spectrum of philosophical ideas that exist to test societal potential outside of these two extremes.
But I'm speaking specifically of the galaxy we're presented in the Star Wars movies; those extremes are reality and neither is better or worse than the other. They are both cancers and the Jedi are just as guilty for the state of things and the events that unfold, as the Emperor or any of his predecessors or students.
That's where I have to disagree. The Jedi aren't perfect by any means, but that doesn't make them morally equivalent to the Sith.
As stagnant as the Old Order became, as many compromises as it made, it was better than the Sith. Just compare the 1,000 between Darth Bane and Sidious, and the 50 years afterwards.
In a real-world context, this is why both sides arguments usually fall flat to me- they usually boil down to "this is awful, but that isn't perfect, and thus is equally awful."
Posts
RLM put up their half in the bag on it earlier today.
They were not impressed, overall.
It is definitely worth the watch, regardless of what your perspective on TLJ was.
And I can't think of a single reviewer on the tubewebs that I am more than 50/50 on for the most part.
I like it that way, though.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Also, probably one of the best ways they could've sent off Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker! Shame they won't necessarily be able to do that for Carrie Fisher.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
Maybe it will be one of those movies that gets better every time you watch it and you can start to pick up on all of the interweaving sub plots playing out, and can focus more attention on what's happening instead of being caught up in the moment.
Watching it again this weekend.
I've heard it's a movie that really fleshes out on a 2nd watch.
frankly that issue could've been solved with one line
Also, in regards to Poe. He didn't actually know about the part where they were going to hold up in an old rebel installation, only that they were abandoning ship. Also also, you don't have to spill the beans to someone to emphasize that there's more to a plan or situation than what is being broadly reported. This is standard middle management stuff. I myself have had to convey half-information on multiple occasions to assuage worries while also not divulging any actual information.
FFXIV - Milliardo Beoulve/Sargatanas
Nah
Because the most likely spy is...Finn.
One of the few survivors of the Dreadnought run? Also pushed really hard for the Dreadnought run to continue after being ordered back?
Only survivor to luckily not be in the landing bay when it got hit?
Now running around demanding to know what the plans are for the immediate future?
Any one of those would be suspicious, but all of them back to back?
I wouldn't really phrase it like that, it's that Ahsoka follows the light side, but not the Jedi code.
TLJ
Bendu was more like a force of nature, an elemental. He was the river, it might feed you one year, and then flood and wipe out your house the next year, but the river isn't good or evil for doing either of those things.
All of Bendu's lessons were about self-knowledge, internal honesty. He trains Kanan, but you get the feeling he would've been just as willing to train a Sith, if they had thought to ask. The point of his training is for you to know yourself and what you want... But he doesn't care whether that is good or evil.
To add to that TFA spoilers
was captured by Kylo Ren, mysteriously escaped after being mind tortured by him.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Right? Like not only did they have no issue with it neither did freaking anakin post becoming a freaking jedi...
pleasepaypreacher.net
Then the Jedi themselves are evil.
...
I win right?
I would have preferred if Anakin fell in pursuit of the power and authority to wipe out slavery in the galaxy.
Literally anything would have been better than what did cause his fall.
pleasepaypreacher.net
They had an issue with it, just that half the point of their teachings were that you couldn't go around just forcing the universe to be better.
The Republic deserves more blame for allowing it to flourish in the rim worlds and areas outside Republic space, but given the nature of the Jedi it seems wrong to blame them for not going out and solving the worlds problems, when Anakin's desire to do so is part of what brought him down.
And it also makes me sad we'll likely never get a Star Wars RPG like them again.
They defend the republic, they allow slavery to exist when they could do something about it. Anakin never even bothered to go back and set his mother free, he just left her to die in the desert like so much forgotten garbage.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Would have made a more complete arc for Poe I think. The movie starts with him getting a bunch of people killed in order to blow up the dreadnaught and Leia scolding him about how it was more important to protect the rebels than to blow up one ship. Would have made a nice bookend if like by the end of the movie Poe is the one who says that it was more important to protect those he loved than to destroy what he hated.
EDIT: Oh never mind, it turns out that was exactly what happened though it doesn't mention if the kiss ever changed.
I hated how things ended.
Ultimately, this is a movie about failure, and how people respond to failure. And by killing Luke off, it took the easy route to resolving Luke’s arc. Luke was once the New Hope, he ended the Sith, was the first of the new Jedi, and all that rot. And then he failed. I’m entirely fine with those aspects of his arc. But in the end, he basically just gets trotted out as a hero one last time, saves a small handful of people, and then keels over dead.
I found that to be a seriously disappointing way for him to pass on, because he never really gets a chance to try to move on from his failure. He sidesteps the issue. Moving on, growing, would be to take what he’s learned and to rededicate himself to training the next generation of Jedi. He addresses his failure in his duel with Ren, but he never does anything about it. Like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him, he died and left his problems to the next generation.
I would have liked the movie a whole lot better if Luke had survived, and the last scene had shown Luke teaching the kid with the broom.
According to that article it wasn't the same arc at all compared to what was in the movie
pleasepaypreacher.net
And we can blame that on the Order and their asinine "no attachments" policy.
Right.
Wasn't that kind of the point of the prequels? That the Jedi, through inaction and arbitrary upholding and enforcement of vague ideals that had more to do with self preservation and self interest, did as much, or more, to lead to the stagnation of the republic, it's downfall, and the rise of the Empire, EDIT: than the Sith?
Palpatine and Vader were the "bad guys" but they were only there and able to be there because of the Jedi.
The Empire didn't need to go through and remake society; just lay claim to what already existed.
Paving roads to hell and all that.
If the light and the dark are two sides of the same coin, then that coin has the same face on both sides.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
IX Speculation:
In fact, I suspect the final duel between her and Kylo will be a lot more gray than light and dark. What will save her in end is her friends- the one thing she has that Kylo doesn't.
One thing I really dig about this trilogy in light of both EUs:
In the old EU, almost every major Jedi character had a brush with the dark side, and nearly all of them came back. After awhile, falling started to feel like a teenage rebellion. The new EU isn't quite as bad so far, but there have been shades of it with Ezra.
My favorite twist in TLJ is that Kylo saw redemption and unambiguously thew it aside.
Come to think of it, was there even an arc?
Did you miss the bit at the end where he's confronted by
Uh... there was a huge acknowledgement?
That works right up until you get to the whole "destroying planets and enslaving vast swaths of the galaxy" thing. The Jedi weren't perfect by any means, but a direct comparison to the Sith falls flat.
That's my problem with applying both sides logic to Star Wars, because one is invariably worse than the other.
Also, the Jedi didn't wipe out slavery (or crime, or corruption, or any number of awful things) because they practice restraint. And, as this series has shown over and over again, power without restraint is tyranny.
If power without restraint is tyranny, and power with restraint leaves whole populations enslaved, abused, controlled, living in crime ridden areas, where those with money and power can use anyone else how they see fit, then there is no functional difference.
You're mistaking framing them the same as permissive of the dark side, when my point is the opposite.
Of course destroying planets is terrible.
But no more terrible than allowing likely far larger populations to remain enslaved or worse.
If an organization (government, jedi, whatever) have the power to prevent suffering and choose to let it continue, then they are complicit and are as culpable as the people physically holding the chains. The destruction of a planet is flashy and gets attention, but ultimately is no different than allowing disease and sickness to persist and flourish, when they could be stopped.
Fortunately in the real world it isn't a binary thing, and there is a spectrum of philosophical ideas that exist to test societal potential outside of these two extremes.
But I'm speaking specifically of the galaxy we're presented in the Star Wars movies; those extremes are reality and neither is better or worse than the other. They are both cancers and the Jedi are just as guilty for the state of things and the events that unfold, as the Emperor or any of his predecessors or students.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Dark side is Chaos, it's giving into fear, loss, rage, despair, hope, love enough that you just act. It's more powerful because there is nothing separating you from the Force, thought and action become one, and having become accustomed to this power it is very hard to draw back rather than to just let it flow over and relinquish control. Fall into the storm and lightening is at your fingertips, remake the world as it needs to be...
However civilisation isn't that, it's about resistance and control. Control of your own thoughts and of the others around you, and resistance to being controlled and to your own raw impulses. This is why the Light is balance.
That shouldn't have been necessary.
I'd love to see them get a graphical upgrade. I don't consider myself a graphics whore but they have not aged well visually, and they weren't even pretty when they came out. Atmospheric, though, granted. But gameplay, story, voice acting, soundtrack... they can all remain untouched. They're brilliant.
EDIT: Well... the UI is a bit clunky too. Doesn't need rebuilding, just a little streamlining.
Steam | XBL
That's where I have to disagree. The Jedi aren't perfect by any means, but that doesn't make them morally equivalent to the Sith.
As stagnant as the Old Order became, as many compromises as it made, it was better than the Sith. Just compare the 1,000 between Darth Bane and Sidious, and the 50 years afterwards.
In a real-world context, this is why both sides arguments usually fall flat to me- they usually boil down to "this is awful, but that isn't perfect, and thus is equally awful."