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[Fallout] Your Cube Was Nuked By xXx420yolo_69

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Posts

  • PriestPriest Registered User regular
    What are folk's opinion on FO4?

    I played 1, 2, 3, and NV. Loved NV, 3 was great but the main story arc was a bit lacking, gameplay/exploration made up for it. Largest complaints I've heard against 4 is that it gets a bit too mired in your base crafting and the story is pretty weak as a result. The game and all DLC is $60, which is a price I'm open to if others recommend it?

  • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
    It's probably the least I've ever wanted to roleplay in a Bethesda game but the most fun I've actually had playing one.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    I had a lot of fun roleplaying in Fallout 4 but it required me to completely ignore all story quests (on another playthrough) to do. The story is bad. Gameplay is probably the best they've ever done. You can actually aim and shoot successfully without VATS if you want to.

  • PriestPriest Registered User regular
    When people say the story is bad, are we talking:

    A: Sequels Set A High Bar (Star Wars Prequels): The story didn't live up to my expectations
    B: Finale Pain (Mass Effect 3): 99% of this story is great, but holy hell does the ending struggle
    C: We Changed The Writers And Thought You Wouldn't Notice (Scrubs Season 9): Is this Fallout 4 or Duke Nukem's B-Script?
    D: Bethesda Effect (Skyrim, Fallout): We tried to do so many things, the main storyline sucks. But hey, at least there are great side-quests, and New Vegas wasn't a shit show, was it?

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    A little of A, due to the amazing premise that "person from the old world wakes up in the post-apocalypse" is which they completely dropped the ball on. Also a bunch of D, with the side story stuff being pretty good.

    Main problem for me is E: We took every step to have the resolutions to main quests be the dumbest thing possible instead of that other thing you actually wanted to do or have happen. And a bunch of F: Your character is locked into a very specific personality and archetype that forces you to do quests one way or else it feels incredibly jarring.

    Aistan on
  • McHogerMcHoger Registered User regular
    The story in Fallout 4 has 3 elements and 2 of them don't work.

    A. Missing Baby. It required you to care about a missing baby entirely because it's a baby. Largely a repeat of Fallout 3.
    B. Are robots real people? Largely undermined by the best companions in the game being likeable robots.
    C. Choosing a faction to decide the fate of the commonwealth. The best part of the story and should have been the main thrust of the plot instead of just the endgame. Largely a repeat of New Vegas.

  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Priest wrote: »
    What are folk's opinion on FO4?

    I played 1, 2, 3, and NV. Loved NV, 3 was great but the main story arc was a bit lacking, gameplay/exploration made up for it. Largest complaints I've heard against 4 is that it gets a bit too mired in your base crafting and the story is pretty weak as a result. The game and all DLC is $60, which is a price I'm open to if others recommend it?

    My opinion is Avoid.

    There are better games to spend your money on. F4 is crap, it doesnt play like or feel like a Fallout. It feels like a game that Bethesda bought that was about 70% done and Bethesda said "shove supermutants and vaults into it, boom Fallout", on top of that 90% of the quests in the game are boring randomly generated radiant crap designed (and failing) to make how little content there actually is in the game.

    The story is basically Fallout 3's story, and its a horrible story at that. I'd say its worse than F3s.

    If you want a good Fallout experience with settlements, reinstall New Vegas and download Real Time Settler.
    Priest wrote: »
    When people say the story is bad, are we talking:

    A: Sequels Set A High Bar (Star Wars Prequels): The story didn't live up to my expectations
    B: Finale Pain (Mass Effect 3): 99% of this story is great, but holy hell does the ending struggle
    C: We Changed The Writers And Thought You Wouldn't Notice (Scrubs Season 9): Is this Fallout 4 or Duke Nukem's B-Script?
    D: Bethesda Effect (Skyrim, Fallout): We tried to do so many things, the main storyline sucks. But hey, at least there are great side-quests, and New Vegas wasn't a shit show, was it?

    E: Horribly bland attempts at emotional manipulation to create a false sense of urgency in a game designed to make you take a 90 mile route to the next location 1000 feet down the road, and so horribly executed you wont care about the object of supposed emotional care or the stupid windy exploratoring.

    Horrible, even for Bethesda standards, which as standards are fucking low.

    Honestly, its so bad that if i was offered a refund for it I would take it.

    Its so bad I've never been able to stomach it long enough to see one of the endings.

    Buttcleft on
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Priest wrote: »
    What are folk's opinion on FO4?

    I played 1, 2, 3, and NV. Loved NV, 3 was great but the main story arc was a bit lacking, gameplay/exploration made up for it. Largest complaints I've heard against 4 is that it gets a bit too mired in your base crafting and the story is pretty weak as a result. The game and all DLC is $60, which is a price I'm open to if others recommend it?

    It's a great game and a very poor Fallout game.

    The shooting feels the best it's been in the entire series by a wide, wide margin.
    Peppering skill magazines that add small but generally useful bonuses to a character throughout the dungeons makes it so a huge number of locations have something worth looting even if your gear is set.
    Customizing your own weapons and armor is fun and rewarding and lets you make many rewards that would have been sold or just put into The Wall in past games into something your build can make use of.
    Settlements can be a lot of fun even if you go more for function than appearance. My multistory towers in each settlement filled with turrets aren't pretty but it's fun watching them open up on nearby super mutants and deathclaws.
    The combined crafting systems make you completely change how you look at the environment. In Fallout 3 and NV, you'd wander into the ruins of a prewar grocery store and ignore the shelves because you had no use for the food items unless they had a good caps to weight ratio. Now you'll still probably ignore the food but you'll grab the shopping baskets, empty bottles, and other junk because you can use those to make useful items. You now actually have incentive to scavenge.
    Many enemy types that have long been part of the series have been reimagined in some great ways. Ghouls can keep fighting through the loss of limbs and will try to ambush you by playing dead or squeezing through painfully tight windows and other openings. Mole rates can burrow into the ground and flank you when they pop out. Deathclaws are now weakest on their belly and facing one can be a matter of timing shots to coincide with when their heads lift and stop obscuring their gut during their charge animation.
    You're no longer extremely constrained by stat choices you make when you start the game before you really know how you'll want to approach things the first time through.
    Survival mode can really add something to the game as you progress through the game by figuring out safe havens and basically reclaiming the wasteland location by location to make things safe to traverse. Some modding is almost required to really make it feel right due to some issues with the base implementation though.

    And then the ball is dropped on other series staples.
    Dialogue is limited. Only 4 maximum responses feels really restricted compared to past games.
    The main game makes almost no use of stat/skill checks. Gone are the times you used knowledge of science in dialogue. I think I only jury rigged wiring fixes in one quest compared to a lot more times in NV.
    The romances are bad and awkwardly paced even by video game standards. I'll give the game credit for one ending up being hilariously awkward to the point of amusement by accident when combined with a late game main quest spoiler though.
    Playing a melee character kind of sucks since any hit staggers you out of swing animations.
    Console first design resulted in the grenade key being the same key as melee bash which leads to messy results.
    The setting often feels like a generic post-apoc game instead of a Fallout sequel. They justified the area still looking like shit over 200 years after the bombs fell by making another series of disasters strike the region before you wake up but you have to really dig to get any of that and it still doesn't explain why an npc hasn't cleaned out the decayed skeleton from her store/diner.
    Settlements really require the Local Leader perk to really be meaningful and that's got a pretty high Charisma requirement.

    There's other stuff that's a bit more mixed. You have more defined backstory which makes some of the more bastard choices not really fit but that's not exactly new for the series. It never exactly made sense to go from joining Metzger's Slavers in the Den to resuming a search for a GECK to save your tribal village's crops either in Fallout 2 or perform murders for Decker right before going back to find a water chip for your birth vault in the first game. But after the much more open ended character background in NV, complete with being able to consistently tell Ulysses that you're not who he thinks you are when he cites the official origin story in Lonesome Road, going back to a more defined character feels weird.

    Priest wrote: »
    When people say the story is bad, are we talking:

    A: Sequels Set A High Bar (Star Wars Prequels): The story didn't live up to my expectations
    B: Finale Pain (Mass Effect 3): 99% of this story is great, but holy hell does the ending struggle
    C: We Changed The Writers And Thought You Wouldn't Notice (Scrubs Season 9): Is this Fallout 4 or Duke Nukem's B-Script?
    D: Bethesda Effect (Skyrim, Fallout): We tried to do so many things, the main storyline sucks. But hey, at least there are great side-quests, and New Vegas wasn't a shit show, was it?

    This gets a bit complicated and very subjective. I've been dealing with a lost pet situation the past few years and helped others recover their own lost pets so the missing baby setup both was very effective for me and believably written.

    It's bit more of what I'd consider the Deus Ex sequel situation where in order to make all the choices on who to side with tolerable none of them could be made a clearly right choice except maybe the closest to a neutral party (that still wants to kill one of the other parties).

    And there are some twists that in many games or stories could make for a great piece of the conclusion but get used too early and suck out a lot of the energy from the main quest 2/3 of the way in when combined with the previous thing. I legitimately did not want to do any of the tasks any of the ways to progress required for a good long time after hitting a certain point.

    Despite all this, I have over 300 hours logged into the game across two main games without any of the DLC. A lot of that is idle time, but it's been a lot of fun when I don't take the main threads too seriously. I actually feel rewarded for exploring all those spaces Bethesda crams their games with which isn't something I could really say about past games they've done.

    Steel Angel on
    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • DeadfallDeadfall I don't think you realize just how rich he is. In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered User regular
    On the other hand I absolutely loved 4.

    It was my first foray into the series so I don't know if that clouded my judgement but I have played through it 3 times with 3 vastly different characters and settlements.

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  • descdesc Goretexing to death Registered User regular
    Glazius wrote: »
    desc wrote: »
    I am excited about some of the settlement upgrades especially

    Are you playing Horizon, with its kind of bonkers settlement system and tech tree, or Sim Settlements, with its slightly less bonkers but more graphically-intensive settlement system and tech tree?

    Or a different settlement mod entirely?

    Sim Settlements is pretty great as long as you don't drop 80 plots in a 40-person settlement and kill your graphics card. Can't speak for Horizon.

    @Glazius sim settlements and some others as well

  • Dr. ChaosDr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    4 definitely gets my vote as weakest of the bunch. Its a good game but a far cry from the god tier I would put most of the dev's other games at and the expectations I generally have for them.

    Felt like Bethesda were pretty uninspired compared to 3 and probably the most gimped dialog choices in the series. Some nice changes though such as an attempt at a more morally gray MSQ, actual faction choices and power armor felt much more badass if abit overpowered.

    One of the only Bethesda games I've finished and have almost no interest in replaying unless theres a big acclaimed quest mod that comes out.

    Dr. Chaos on
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  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3 in every respect but the dialogue, I think. Fallout 3 feels like the worst of all worlds, having the clunky awkward gameplay of its time, without the good writing, roleplay, or character building that was in New Vegas. And for all its faults, Fallout 4 is at least basically fun to play, and the writing is a step up, if still not very good. I played Fallout 3 one time, and can't imagine ever going back to it.

  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Elendil wrote: »
    Fallout 4 is better than Fallout 3 in every respect but the dialogue, I think. Fallout 3 feels like the worst of all worlds, having the clunky awkward gameplay of its time, without the good writing, roleplay, or character building that was in New Vegas. And for all its faults, Fallout 4 is at least basically fun to play, and the writing is a step up, if still not very good. I played Fallout 3 one time, and can't imagine ever going back to it.

    in fallout 3 you at least had options.

    in fallout 4, thanks to the stupid dialog wheel, its basically 4 different ways of saying yes and forcing you to move the plot along a very narrow railroaded path.

    and while new vegas is clearly and continues to be the king of the crop as far as 3d Fallouts go, I would respectfully disagree and say that even F3 is superior to F4

    Buttcleft on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I think the main thing in Fallout 4 main story (And I really think there are a lot of the side and expansion content that is just fine) is that there is only the one major choice and from that point you are railroaded. You ALWAYS kill the institue and railroad as the brotherhood, you ALWAYS blow up the institute with the non-institute factions, etc. Give more options and it would be more palatable.

    Far harbor is a good example of doing this better, you can end up with anything from all three factions alive and getting along to everyone dead at the end or any combination (and there are compelling story reasons why you would not always choose the first option).

    Edit: Further expanding, I really got the sense that in the original 4 faction storylines and nuka world storyline my character was just an enabler. The minutemen, brotherhood, institute, railroad, and raiders just do what they would want to do anyway, the only influence my character had is just being a bad enough dude to make it happen for them. Wheras in most of the better stories it feels like the character is having an influence (even if it is illusional) rather than just being a tool in someone elses agenda.

    Jealous Deva on
  • OpposingFarceOpposingFarce Registered User regular
    If the entire base game had the writing/choice of Far Harbor FO4 would be an absolute triumph.

    It really is night and day between the two.

  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    I will say that while 4 is a really solid adventure shooter, it's a piss-poor RPG and the main story is dumb. I've just started my first serious playthrough since it initially came out (I'd started earlier this year and got sidetracked by the Switch and Ark and all my mods are out of date now since CC came out) and it occurs to me that I'd almost rather they railroad you MORE in the beginning before really setting you loose on the open world stuff, at least then the urgency of losing your fucking kid would feel more real.
    Keep in mind, from your character's perspective, when you run into Preston and the gang, it's been 20 minutes since the bombs fell. Someone just stole your kid, why are you fucking around with these idiots and waxing poetic about how Sanctuary used to feel like home? The main plot angers me more than it did when I first played it, as I've since become a parent and have another on the way in a few weeks. This is not how a parent and spouse that gives a shit acts. Granted, there's a lot of "GIVE ME BACK MY SON" and "WHERE'S SHAUN" but it all rings hollow unless you basically go on a murder spree following the breadcrumbs until making contact with the relevant parties.

    But otherwise yeah, game is very solid mechanically and Bethesda's environmental storytelling is some of the best in the business, if a little inconsistent here and there (see above for example of diner with skeletons just chilling that the owner just keeps around). I just hope that whenever they get around to Fallout 5 they take fan feedback to heart and drop voiced protagonists and make your stats relevant to gameplay outside of combat. The fatalist in me fully expects the next game to be Doom with a Fallout skin though.

  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Bethesda is on a path of simplifying dialog and choices to the point that the next game, or maybe the one after that, will have nothing more than a smile and a frown you select for dialog.


  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    But otherwise yeah, game is very solid mechanically and Bethesda's environmental storytelling is some of the best in the business, if a little inconsistent here and there (see above for example of diner with skeletons just chilling that the owner just keeps around). I just hope that whenever they get around to Fallout 5 they take fan feedback to heart and drop voiced protagonists and make your stats relevant to gameplay outside of combat. The fatalist in me fully expects the next game to be Doom with a Fallout skin though.

    Sorry to sound persnickety, but I'd like you to come back after you put in, say, 30-40 hours and report again on whether you think the environmental storytelling is still good. I too thought the game had some amazing environmental moments and set-pieces early in the game, but as I dove deeper and deeper, I realised that they were reusing the same story over and over again. The Boston wasteland eventually becomes a fucking miserable place to explore, like Bethesda just jammed the "emotional gutpunch" button over and over again until you become numb to it.

    I think University Point was my breaking point. Just had enough of the whole, everything sucks and everybody dies theme, for the umpteenth time.

    hippofant on
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    I will say that while 4 is a really solid adventure shooter, it's a piss-poor RPG and the main story is dumb. I've just started my first serious playthrough since it initially came out (I'd started earlier this year and got sidetracked by the Switch and Ark and all my mods are out of date now since CC came out) and it occurs to me that I'd almost rather they railroad you MORE in the beginning before really setting you loose on the open world stuff, at least then the urgency of losing your fucking kid would feel more real.
    Keep in mind, from your character's perspective, when you run into Preston and the gang, it's been 20 minutes since the bombs fell. Someone just stole your kid, why are you fucking around with these idiots and waxing poetic about how Sanctuary used to feel like home? The main plot angers me more than it did when I first played it, as I've since become a parent and have another on the way in a few weeks. This is not how a parent and spouse that gives a shit acts. Granted, there's a lot of "GIVE ME BACK MY SON" and "WHERE'S SHAUN" but it all rings hollow unless you basically go on a murder spree following the breadcrumbs until making contact with the relevant parties.

    A lot of the writing for this felt like it had to take into account having no idea what path the player would take through things. While you're directed to Preston early on, whether you can make it through to him in a timely manner or instead end up needing to spend time scrounging up supplies, waiting out a rad storm, or repeatedly get wrecked by bloodbugs in the road because those things are lethal in survival mode could make things take a bit longer. In theory someone could even have made it all the way to Diamond City and learned about the Institute and the need to make allies to fight them by the time they come across the Minutemen.

    Again coming from a lost pet perspective, a lot of the dialogue feels like it fits for the stage after the initial shock of loss is gone and being able to hold general conversation and built rapport with others is needed (people are much more willing to help keep an eye out when they remember you) but the loss is obviously still on the mind and can be pivoted back to quickly. Definitely not as believable if you were able to beeline to talking with other people within a few in game hours of leaving the vault. Had you initially been directed somewhere that made it clear you'd need allies and help, it would have flowed better in that situation.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    hippofant wrote: »
    But otherwise yeah, game is very solid mechanically and Bethesda's environmental storytelling is some of the best in the business, if a little inconsistent here and there (see above for example of diner with skeletons just chilling that the owner just keeps around). I just hope that whenever they get around to Fallout 5 they take fan feedback to heart and drop voiced protagonists and make your stats relevant to gameplay outside of combat. The fatalist in me fully expects the next game to be Doom with a Fallout skin though.

    Sorry to sound persnickety, but I'd like you to come back after you put in, say, 30-40 hours and report again on whether you think the environmental storytelling is still good. I too thought the game had some amazing environmental moments and set-pieces early in the game, but as I dove deeper and deeper, I realised that they were reusing the same story over and over again. The Boston wasteland eventually becomes a fucking miserable place to explore, like Bethesda just jammed the "emotional gutpunch" button over and over again until you become numb to it.

    I think University Point was my breaking point. Just had enough of the whole, everything sucks and everybody dies theme, for the umpteenth time.

    I put over 100 hours into my first playthrough, so that is my assessment of my experience with the game as a whole. I think they just do a very good job of letting the environment tell a story. Whether you think that those stories are good stories you want to see is subjective, obviously, and I don't disagree with you that it can be bleak. I just think they're well done.
    I will say that while 4 is a really solid adventure shooter, it's a piss-poor RPG and the main story is dumb. I've just started my first serious playthrough since it initially came out (I'd started earlier this year and got sidetracked by the Switch and Ark and all my mods are out of date now since CC came out) and it occurs to me that I'd almost rather they railroad you MORE in the beginning before really setting you loose on the open world stuff, at least then the urgency of losing your fucking kid would feel more real.
    Keep in mind, from your character's perspective, when you run into Preston and the gang, it's been 20 minutes since the bombs fell. Someone just stole your kid, why are you fucking around with these idiots and waxing poetic about how Sanctuary used to feel like home? The main plot angers me more than it did when I first played it, as I've since become a parent and have another on the way in a few weeks. This is not how a parent and spouse that gives a shit acts. Granted, there's a lot of "GIVE ME BACK MY SON" and "WHERE'S SHAUN" but it all rings hollow unless you basically go on a murder spree following the breadcrumbs until making contact with the relevant parties.

    A lot of the writing for this felt like it had to take into account having no idea what path the player would take through things. While you're directed to Preston early on, whether you can make it through to him in a timely manner or instead end up needing to spend time scrounging up supplies, waiting out a rad storm, or repeatedly get wrecked by bloodbugs in the road because those things are lethal in survival mode could make things take a bit longer. In theory someone could even have made it all the way to Diamond City and learned about the Institute and the need to make allies to fight them by the time they come across the Minutemen.

    Again coming from a lost pet perspective, a lot of the dialogue feels like it fits for the stage after the initial shock of loss is gone and being able to hold general conversation and built rapport with others is needed (people are much more willing to help keep an eye out when they remember you) but the loss is obviously still on the mind and can be pivoted back to quickly. Definitely not as believable if you were able to beeline to talking with other people within a few in game hours of leaving the vault. Had you initially been directed somewhere that made it clear you'd need allies and help, it would have flowed better in that situation.

    Well, my point was that basically zero time passes from "get into the vault" and seeing the murder of your spouse and theft of your child, and waking up after the fact, from the perspective of the player. The player can either follow the breadcrumbs to Preston or piddlefart around and/or wander off aimlessly. It's just not very well handled and I disconnect from it pretty quickly. There's no sense of the urgency of the situation and would probably have been better served if there was no child involved and you were just tracking down the murderer of your spouse, who they kill and murder for tissue samples and keep you on ice as a backup, I dunno. Edit: Which doesn't explain why I bolded that part necessarily. Basically, the loss of a child or spouse or both isn't something you get over quickly, if ever. The dialogue does fit for a certain stage of loss, but that stage is generally taking place, bare minimum, weeks after such a loss, if not much longer. They skip a stage or two.
    Also, something I thought about last night as I played through the part where you meet Preston and the others, is the Minuteman that's dead on the doorstep that you take the laser musket from ever mentioned at all by the other characters? Ostensibly he was traveling with them when he died in front of the building and I don't even recall mention of him in the logs at Quincy.

    Dr. Phibbs McAthey on
  • SyngyneSyngyne Registered User regular
    Deadfall wrote: »
    On the other hand I absolutely loved 4.

    It was my first foray into the series so I don't know if that clouded my judgement but I have played through it 3 times with 3 vastly different characters and settlements.

    If you haven't played Fallout 1/2, Fallout 4 is a pretty enjoyable shooter/RPG Lite with some dodgy writing. I enjoyed playing through it enough, and have close to 700 hours playtime, a lot of which is making settlements.

    Fallout 4 just doesn't feel like a good Fallout game.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Syngyne wrote: »
    Deadfall wrote: »
    On the other hand I absolutely loved 4.

    It was my first foray into the series so I don't know if that clouded my judgement but I have played through it 3 times with 3 vastly different characters and settlements.

    If you haven't played Fallout 1/2, Fallout 4 is a pretty enjoyable shooter/RPG Lite with some dodgy writing. I enjoyed playing through it enough, and have close to 700 hours playtime, a lot of which is making settlements.

    Fallout 4 just doesn't feel like a good Fallout game.

    In all fairness 3 was not either. I’d argue the ‘good’ modern fallout stories are basically the Pitt and Point Lookout from 3, main game from New vegas along with honest hearts and old world blues probably, then Far Harbor.

    Jealous Deva on
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I loved the story of Dead Money. I don't know if it's a good Fallout story but it's a good story regardless. I'm a sucker for heists though.

    UncleSporky on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, the story was decent, I wasn’t a big fan of the gameplay though.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    But otherwise yeah, game is very solid mechanically and Bethesda's environmental storytelling is some of the best in the business, if a little inconsistent here and there (see above for example of diner with skeletons just chilling that the owner just keeps around). I just hope that whenever they get around to Fallout 5 they take fan feedback to heart and drop voiced protagonists and make your stats relevant to gameplay outside of combat. The fatalist in me fully expects the next game to be Doom with a Fallout skin though.

    Sorry to sound persnickety, but I'd like you to come back after you put in, say, 30-40 hours and report again on whether you think the environmental storytelling is still good. I too thought the game had some amazing environmental moments and set-pieces early in the game, but as I dove deeper and deeper, I realised that they were reusing the same story over and over again. The Boston wasteland eventually becomes a fucking miserable place to explore, like Bethesda just jammed the "emotional gutpunch" button over and over again until you become numb to it.

    I think University Point was my breaking point. Just had enough of the whole, everything sucks and everybody dies theme, for the umpteenth time.

    This is why the game is just a theme park for the player. Everything is set up for the player to be the first one to discover it. It doesn't feel like a living world because everything is static until you arrive, made more obvious by nearly every encounter or secret being set to "the player finds the dead people who were last at this place."

    Interestingly this is probably why I enjoyed Nuka World so much. Making it a literal theme park with character interactions and dialogue options that have zero correlation to how the main character acts in the main game broke the facade entirely. Instead I just played it as a cool place to do ridiculous stuff while acting like an over-the-top baddie and it was great. Didn't have to pretend to care about some kid or team up with boring fascists or anything like that.

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    But otherwise yeah, game is very solid mechanically and Bethesda's environmental storytelling is some of the best in the business, if a little inconsistent here and there (see above for example of diner with skeletons just chilling that the owner just keeps around). I just hope that whenever they get around to Fallout 5 they take fan feedback to heart and drop voiced protagonists and make your stats relevant to gameplay outside of combat. The fatalist in me fully expects the next game to be Doom with a Fallout skin though.

    Sorry to sound persnickety, but I'd like you to come back after you put in, say, 30-40 hours and report again on whether you think the environmental storytelling is still good. I too thought the game had some amazing environmental moments and set-pieces early in the game, but as I dove deeper and deeper, I realised that they were reusing the same story over and over again. The Boston wasteland eventually becomes a fucking miserable place to explore, like Bethesda just jammed the "emotional gutpunch" button over and over again until you become numb to it.

    I think University Point was my breaking point. Just had enough of the whole, everything sucks and everybody dies theme, for the umpteenth time.

    This is why the game is just a theme park for the player. Everything is set up for the player to be the first one to discover it. It doesn't feel like a living world because everything is static until you arrive, made more obvious by nearly every encounter or secret being set to "the player finds the dead people who were last at this place."

    Interestingly this is probably why I enjoyed Nuka World so much. Making it a literal theme park with character interactions and dialogue options that have zero correlation to how the main character acts in the main game broke the facade entirely. Instead I just played it as a cool place to do ridiculous stuff while acting like an over-the-top baddie and it was great. Didn't have to pretend to care about some kid or team up with boring fascists or anything like that.

    I remember the ghoul kid in the refrigerator quest, which set off all sorts of angry Fallout posts on Reddit and such, and I was reading them thinking, "If this was Fallout 1 or 2, I'd think this story was great. And if it wasn't Fallout 4, I'd say these people are overreacting, but given how the rest of Fallout 4 looks, the complaints realyl register as emblematic now. Also, I'm pretty sure FO3 or FNV did something similar to this anyways, and found a creative solution to the ridiculous idea that a ghoul would stay sane while stuck in a refrigerator for 200+ years, and his parents would still be living down the road in the exact same house too."

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Well, my point was that basically zero time passes from "get into the vault" and seeing the murder of your spouse and theft of your child, and waking up after the fact, from the perspective of the player. The player can either follow the breadcrumbs to Preston or piddlefart around and/or wander off aimlessly. It's just not very well handled and I disconnect from it pretty quickly. There's no sense of the urgency of the situation and would probably have been better served if there was no child involved and you were just tracking down the murderer of your spouse, who they kill and murder for tissue samples and keep you on ice as a backup, I dunno. Edit: Which doesn't explain why I bolded that part necessarily. Basically, the loss of a child or spouse or both isn't something you get over quickly, if ever. The dialogue does fit for a certain stage of loss, but that stage is generally taking place, bare minimum, weeks after such a loss, if not much longer. They skip a stage or two.
    Also, something I thought about last night as I played through the part where you meet Preston and the others, is the Minuteman that's dead on the doorstep that you take the laser musket from ever mentioned at all by the other characters? Ostensibly he was traveling with them when he died in front of the building and I don't even recall mention of him in the logs at Quincy.

    There's a pretty consistent theme of loss and issues with family members and adoptive families that I get the feeling the intent was for a whole lot of people the character can bond and commiserate with across the wasteland but the dialogue system doesn't deliver. Plus the first person that opens up about their loss and sympathize with you is Jun Long and interacting with him means dealing with Marcy.

    Each companion has a unique line if they're with you and you travel back to your spouse's pod too so there's clearly some awareness of the import of that loss but the rest of the game doesn't deliver on it.
    I loved the story of Dead Money. I don't know if it's a good Fallout story but it's a good story regardless. I'm a sucker for heists though.

    Dead Money was a story of Prewar goosery combined wasteland goosery and how wasteland survivors adapt, survive, and overcome things. Those are the elements of Fallout stories even if the framing device was something different.

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  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Well, my point was that basically zero time passes from "get into the vault" and seeing the murder of your spouse and theft of your child, and waking up after the fact, from the perspective of the player. The player can either follow the breadcrumbs to Preston or piddlefart around and/or wander off aimlessly. It's just not very well handled and I disconnect from it pretty quickly. There's no sense of the urgency of the situation and would probably have been better served if there was no child involved and you were just tracking down the murderer of your spouse, who they kill and murder for tissue samples and keep you on ice as a backup, I dunno. Edit: Which doesn't explain why I bolded that part necessarily. Basically, the loss of a child or spouse or both isn't something you get over quickly, if ever. The dialogue does fit for a certain stage of loss, but that stage is generally taking place, bare minimum, weeks after such a loss, if not much longer. They skip a stage or two.
    Also, something I thought about last night as I played through the part where you meet Preston and the others, is the Minuteman that's dead on the doorstep that you take the laser musket from ever mentioned at all by the other characters? Ostensibly he was traveling with them when he died in front of the building and I don't even recall mention of him in the logs at Quincy.

    There's a pretty consistent theme of loss and issues with family members and adoptive families that I get the feeling the intent was for a whole lot of people the character can bond and commiserate with across the wasteland but the dialogue system doesn't deliver. Plus the first person that opens up about their loss and sympathize with you is Jun Long and interacting with him means dealing with Marcy.

    Each companion has a unique line if they're with you and you travel back to your spouse's pod too so there's clearly some awareness of the import of that loss but the rest of the game doesn't deliver on it.
    I loved the story of Dead Money. I don't know if it's a good Fallout story but it's a good story regardless. I'm a sucker for heists though.

    Dead Money was a story of Prewar goosery combined wasteland goosery and how wasteland survivors adapt, survive, and overcome things. Those are the elements of Fallout stories even if the framing device was something different.

    Jun Long's dialog was poignant and I really appreciated it, but yeah. Marcy. Sorry Jun Long, if I could I would trade your wife for your kid in a heartbeat, too.
    Edit: Also I did appreciate that it got worked in in some ways, but yeah just generally poorly handled. The only friend I took to see my spouse was Piper and uh, shortly after that she wanted to bump uglies, so that was weird.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Dead Money was a story of Prewar goosery combined wasteland goosery and how wasteland survivors adapt, survive, and overcome things. Those are the elements of Fallout stories even if the framing device was something different.

    Yeah I wasn't trying to say it was a bad Fallout story, only that I guess I'm unqualified to comment on it because I haven't played 1 and 2. Though I played the three that came after them. :p
    Aistan wrote: »
    This is why the game is just a theme park for the player. Everything is set up for the player to be the first one to discover it. It doesn't feel like a living world because everything is static until you arrive, made more obvious by nearly every encounter or secret being set to "the player finds the dead people who were last at this place."

    I'm kind of confused how else the game should be set up. I would never once think "oh man I'm so glad I missed being the first one to discover this place and now it's all boring and picked over. Sure feels lived-in by making it clear someone was here before me and I missed my chance."

    Also aren't you often not the first person to arrive at a place? I feel like it's common to encounter a location full of raiders with their own current situation going on, while finding logs from old world people and discovering what had happened to them there. But they're still just waiting for you to get there and clear the place out. It doesn't matter how many layers are built in - before the war this was a school and the teachers left behind recordings about staff trysts, but then when the war started it was converted into a makeshift military base and there are logs about which prototype weapons were brought in and stored in the janitor's closet, but then post-war raiders moved in and found the weapons and used them to help set up the place as a defensible base, but then super mutants came and killed all the raiders...it's still just going to be sitting there like that for you to find. I see no reason to complain about that. Games have coded scenarios, yeah.

    The only way to make the game not be static until you arrive is to put a time limit on every location in the game, and if too much time passes somebody moves in and claims all the goodies for themselves and cleans up the skeletons and destroys all the datalogs. I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to play a game like that. I don't want to have to choose between exploring the far south and the far north of the map, knowing that whichever one I don't go to I'm going to miss out on a bunch of stuff.

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  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Places like bandit camps sure. But every single other unoccupied site in the game there hasn't been anyone there since just after the bombs fell. Safes remain unpicked/unsmashed, old world security systems are up and running, distress beacons have been unanswered. For 200 years. No one else has been there for 200 years. In a post-apocalypse where people's main source of resources is scrapping remnants of the old world. It's ridiculous.

    What I want is to see layers of civilization piled on. Maybe someone's already been to hubris comics and taken the sweet axe, but one of their friends died in a trap there and their decaying clothing has a note that tells you where their home is. And you go there and it's a small settlement but those people are long dead and no one currently alive knows anything about them, but they suggest maybe check the trash pile out back where they dumped things they cleared out when they moved in (because people in this version don't live next to fucking skeletons and broken furniture). You look there and hey there's some clues that raiders attacked and killed everyone from that time between when the current residents moved in, and you go find the raiders and there's the axe which has been the symbol of leadership for a few years now. Just something that suggests that actual time has passed instead of everything being a snapshot from the years directly after the bombs.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I just don't want everywhere I go to be picked over already. I don't want to be wandering through empty buildings where all the safes have been opened, nothing anywhere left for me to find except a few scattered pencils on the floor. Gameplay has to come first.

    Your scenario sounds like it would take way more dev time than is feasible. You've created a quest surrounding an axe that was meant to just be simply found where it is. And given that creating a quest around every notable item is unfeasible, given that it has to be found lying around, I would rather find it at a place that makes sense like Hubris Comics rather than in the hands of a random raider who took it years ago. I know that logically you would find items that "belong" in every location in the game in the hands of somebody far away from there, but that doesn't make for a good game.

    4 almost makes more sense in this respect than other games. A prewar person might be the only person left who would know how to hack computers to unlock electronic locks, other than a few educated vault dwellers.

    It's ok to want a world that shows more advancement than Bethesda has been willing to do, to go further than Fallout 2 did with societies rebuilding, but if they insist on giving us post-apocalyptic-pre-society environments then I would rather have them fun to explore and comb through than to be "realistically" already empty.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Places like bandit camps sure. But every single other unoccupied site in the game there hasn't been anyone there since just after the bombs fell. Safes remain unpicked/unsmashed, old world security systems are up and running, distress beacons have been unanswered. For 200 years. No one else has been there for 200 years. In a post-apocalypse where people's main source of resources is scrapping remnants of the old world. It's ridiculous.

    Old world security still functional is kind of a staple of the series. 50s style super science is the law of the setting with prewar AIs still up and running since the first game. Some stuff being unpicked over does make sense. We still have yet to fully clear out World War I era explosives even with dedicated efforts to do so. More aggressive defenses could believably hinder scavenging in a lot of old world caches. The Sierra Army Depot in 2 and the pile of scavenger bodies outside of its turret perimeter is a good example of that.

    I get bugged more by the inconsistencies regarding what's in some of the loot tables. Stuff like post-war drugs and pipe guns in what is described in game as a pristine pre-war cache. The many locations that have had had new occupants move in and repurpose the safes make much more sense but it isn't always clear when a location is supposed to be that. Sometimes you'd see what looked like a pristine preserved location except for the blood spattered chem box sticking out.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
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  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Places like bandit camps sure. But every single other unoccupied site in the game there hasn't been anyone there since just after the bombs fell. Safes remain unpicked/unsmashed, old world security systems are up and running, distress beacons have been unanswered. For 200 years. No one else has been there for 200 years. In a post-apocalypse where people's main source of resources is scrapping remnants of the old world. It's ridiculous.

    Old world security still functional is kind of a staple of the series. 50s style super science is the law of the setting with prewar AIs still up and running since the first game. Some stuff being unpicked over does make sense. We still have yet to fully clear out World War I era explosives even with dedicated efforts to do so. More aggressive defenses could believably hinder scavenging in a lot of old world caches. The Sierra Army Depot in 2 and the pile of scavenger bodies outside of its turret perimeter is a good example of that.

    I get bugged more by the inconsistencies regarding what's in some of the loot tables. Stuff like post-war drugs and pipe guns in what is described in game as a pristine pre-war cache. The many locations that have had had new occupants move in and repurpose the safes make much more sense but it isn't always clear when a location is supposed to be that. Sometimes you'd see what looked like a pristine preserved location except for the blood spattered chem box sticking out.

    There's a mod for the safes you speak of. It always bugged me, too. Really hard to handwave a complicated electronically locked pre-war safe, with terminal entries about said safe, and it's full of caps, jet, and a pipe gun.
    Also, can we agree that pipe guns are way overused?

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Yeah I definitely agree about the drugs and pipe guns.

    Isn't there even a cache in Santuary like that? Some guy in their idyllic little town was making drugs and kept them in his cellar and it's postwar stuff?

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  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Yes I am basically saying I am tired of the current Fallout formula and want them to move forward with the setting, showing how places start to grow beyond simple scavenging in the ruins.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Aistan wrote: »
    Yes I am basically saying I am tired of the current Fallout formula and want them to move forward with the setting, showing how places start to grow beyond simple scavenging in the ruins.

    Sorry if I misinterpreted the main thrust of the argument, I saw the words "theme park" and it made me think of how the same phrase is used to criticize MMO design. But seriously I want to play in a theme park. I want to come across a cool and interesting place with people who have a problem and it's up to me to solve it, and the place was just waiting for me to show up so that I could do that.

    You just meant it more from the standpoint of not being chronologically logical, especially with posed skeletons all over. I'm not totally against that content because I like that stuff and find it fun regardless of whether it makes sense, but I understand wanting the setting to move forward.

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  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    Yeah I definitely agree about the drugs and pipe guns.

    Isn't there even a cache in Santuary like that? Some guy in their idyllic little town was making drugs and kept them in his cellar and it's postwar stuff?

    Yeah I believe there's some internal inconsistency just within Fallout 4 re: jet. Jet has always been a post-war drug made from the fumes coming off of brahmin shit, but Vault 95 was sent shipments of it. I'd have to check the logs on that guy's terminal in Sanctuary to see but it wouldn't surprise me if he was distributing somehow, too. Meanwhile, the protagonist has no idea what it is when asked for it by Mama Murphy.
    Aistan wrote: »
    Yes I am basically saying I am tired of the current Fallout formula and want them to move forward with the setting, showing how places start to grow beyond simple scavenging in the ruins.
    I was just saying this to someone today. They're going to start looking awfully silly when they keep having their protagonists make these massive sweeping changes for the better to the wasteland, yet from game to game there's no fucking change. For some reason, all of the water is irradiated despite the massive water purifier a couple miles south that as far as I've ever been able to gather was capable of purifying the ocean of radiation. Everyone's living in squatter settlements in 200+ year old ruins, shitting in buckets and sleeping in piles of debris, nevermind that the Lone Survivor built a vast network of cities across the commonwealth.

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Yes I am basically saying I am tired of the current Fallout formula and want them to move forward with the setting, showing how places start to grow beyond simple scavenging in the ruins.

    Well honestly, Fallout 4 reversed a lot of the formula/setting. Fallout 4's maybe the least civilized, most apocalyptic version of the Fallout universe since Fallout 1, other than maybe Fallout Brotherhood of Steel. Even Fallout 2 showed huge development and advancement, with 4 major settlements forming in the aftermath of the apocalypse, and civilization looking very much like it was rebuilding.

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I always thought it was weird that diamond city was this major city with tons of security, basically a standing army, and no body bothered to clean out the vast amounts of raider and super mutant nests right next door. Same with goodnieghbor. Like how do you guys get food in to eat and basic supplies?

    Fallout 3 handled this much better. The bad areas of the inner city really just had brotherhood in them, who were supposed to be gradually reclaiming those areas, and the major population centers were on the periphery where they could reasonably get supplied. Fallout 4 you do have minor population centers outside the city, but the major ones are right in the center of hell, and it makes no sense that the area would not have been much more pacified.

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  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    I just don't want everywhere I go to be picked over already. I don't want to be wandering through empty buildings where all the safes have been opened, nothing anywhere left for me to find except a few scattered pencils on the floor. Gameplay has to come first.

    Your scenario sounds like it would take way more dev time than is feasible. You've created a quest surrounding an axe that was meant to just be simply found where it is. And given that creating a quest around every notable item is unfeasible, given that it has to be found lying around, I would rather find it at a place that makes sense like Hubris Comics rather than in the hands of a random raider who took it years ago. I know that logically you would find items that "belong" in every location in the game in the hands of somebody far away from there, but that doesn't make for a good game.

    4 almost makes more sense in this respect than other games. A prewar person might be the only person left who would know how to hack computers to unlock electronic locks, other than a few educated vault dwellers.

    It's ok to want a world that shows more advancement than Bethesda has been willing to do, to go further than Fallout 2 did with societies rebuilding, but if they insist on giving us post-apocalyptic-pre-society environments then I would rather have them fun to explore and comb through than to be "realistically" already empty.

    Yeah, because those wonderful radiant quests that involve going to the opposite corner of the map and killing 3 ghouls for the 27th time was a much better use of dev time than some proper, hand crafted, intriguing stories.


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