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[Trump Immigration Policy] DACA renewals continue due to injunction, SCOTUS denies appeal

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Why should I have to keep saying things we all know are bad are in fact bad just so I can criticize Democrats without being accused of being a 5th columnist or something?

    Because it looks like the only thing worth yelling at or protesting are the Dems. Where's this fire directed at the GOP?
    I mean really, take this thread for instance, leftists say that the Democrats made strategically unsound choices and have had poor priorities for a long time and the response is talking of "rebellion" and "burning down the house".

    I certainly agree that someone's response hasn't been appropriate as supposed allies.

    The far left did more than simply "say" those things. Nor was it as polite as you're suggesting. The response to the Dreamers for the failure of the Dem leadership has been vastly more extreme then you're describing. You don't protest the Dems if you think they're doing a good job.

    Another aspect to "burn the house down" was literally continue the government shut down, for instance. Which would put a lot more lives on the line with little guarantee it'd help the Dreamers or the Dems long term.

    Harry Dresden on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Neither of you is going to convince the other here.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Because it looks like the only thing worth protesting are the Dems.
    Don't tell me you think leftists are only ever protesting Dems.
    The far left did more than simply "say" those things. Nor was it as polite as you're suggesting. The response to the Dreamers for the failure of the Dem leadership has been vastly more extreme then you're describing. You don't protest the Dems if you think they're doing a good job.
    Oh cry me a river with the tone policing. Replacing leadership that is out of touch or poor performing is not a hindrance to regaining power, its a necessity for doing so.
    Another aspect to "burn the house down" was literally continue the government shut down, for instance. Which would put a lot more lives on the line with little guarantee it'd help the Dreamers or the Dems long term.

    I don't understand how its ok that the Dems shut down government for the time they did, but any more would be "burning down the house". Either shutdowns are ok or they're not.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    edited April 2018
    It's easy to say that Dems had poor priorities and strategies when not considering an opposition party who did literally everything in their power- including the theft of a supreme court seat*and possible alliance with a hostile foreign power*- to obstruct them.

    e-added Russian angle.

    No-Quarter on
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Because it looks like the only thing worth protesting are the Dems.
    Don't tell me you think leftists are only ever protesting Dems.

    That's all this thread has been about, if they are it's been vastly overshadowed by those protests.
    Oh cry me a river with the tone policing. Replacing leadership that is out of touch or poor performing is not a hindrance to regaining power, its a necessity for doing so.

    Which would have more bite if they had more votes in congress to save the Dreamers, your right that does come into it. However, they aren't miracle workers, they can only work with what they have. Which isn't as much as need in congress.

    How is this helping the Dreamers exactly?

    The alliance also needs to be a priority to maintain, if you don't care about the coalition with the Dems what exactly do you expect to happen to save the Dreamers? What's your alternative?
    I don't understand how its ok that the Dems shut down government for the time they did, but any more would be "burning down the house". Either shutdowns are ok or they're not.

    We've gone over this, your strategy may work for appealing to the far left - but it'd alienate a lot of left/Dem voters and severely hurt the Dems as a mainstream party if the damage to they reputation is too severe. Then American becomes a one party state for the GOP. That's not going to help the Dreamers or immigrants.

    Harry Dresden on
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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Commander Zoom was warned for this.
    I seem to recall a mod saying that, after this thread hit 100, it was going to be taking a little break.
    Well, here we are, and .... yeah, sounds like a good idea to me.

    So It Goes on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    We've gone over this, your strategy may work for appealing to the far left - but it'd alienate a lot of left/Dem voters and severely hurt the Dems as a mainstream party if the damage to they reputation is too severe. Then American becomes a one party state for the GOP. That's not going to help the Dreamers or immigrants.

    Its really convenient when anyone who disagrees with Dem strategy is not just left, but far left. WooooOooo. Bonus points when you can claim their path is one leading to one party rule. Especially given that its centrist Dem leadership that's led to losing this much power in the first place.

    The quoted claim is not a truism. Its a theory, and one I don't see to be particularly persuasive given the way half the country is spoiling for a fight.

    You've constructed this absurd model where on one side you have a bunch of extreme leftists who aren't actually doing anything but undermining the Democrats and on the other side you have good loyal leftists and Dems who are doing everything. Never mind that it might be, idk, nuanced? That sometimes its leftists out there marching in the streets or Democrats spending absurd amounts of money to elect guys who are functionally republicans?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    We've gone over this, your strategy may work for appealing to the far left - but it'd alienate a lot of left/Dem voters and severely hurt the Dems as a mainstream party if the damage to they reputation is too severe. Then American becomes a one party state for the GOP. That's not going to help the Dreamers or immigrants.

    Its really convenient when anyone who disagrees with Dem strategy is not just left, but far left. WooooOooo. Bonus points when you can claim their path is one leading to one party rule. Especially given that its centrist Dem leadership that's led to losing this much power in the first place.

    The quoted claim is not a truism. Its a theory, and one I don't see to be particularly persuasive given the way half the country is spoiling for a fight.

    You've constructed this absurd model where on one side you have a bunch of extreme leftists who aren't actually doing anything but undermining the Democrats and on the other side you have good loyal leftists and Dems who are doing everything. Never mind that it might be, idk, nuanced? That sometimes its leftists out there marching in the streets or Democrats spending absurd amounts of money to elect guys who are functionally republicans?

    Describing what's been happening as disagrees is an understatement. You can disagree all you want, the Dems have fucked up with the Dreamers but that's not all their fault. They can't just wish everything was ok. It's not like the Dems weren't fighting for immigrants or Dreamers for a long, long time. They've also been outwitted and outgunned by the GOP for just as long, that's why it's difficult for immigration to be protected over long periods. Especially when the GOP obstructs so much it breaks records.

    I'm sure there are numerous people all over the spectrum of the left who agree with you, however, the main spotlight who's been objecting to how the Dems have been acting in this thread and elsewhere has been the far left. Have there been protests against the Dems by liberals and centrists? If so, I'd love to see links to it if that's the case. Though I'd wonder why it was overshadowed by the far left doing this.

    Why is being loyal to the Dems a bad thing? Any group without loyalty is not a alliance, it's target practice to the GOP.

    Your claim that a longer government shutdown would work is also a theory. Nor does it account for the left/Dems who would not back it.

    Marching in the streets is all well and good, but ultimately they need the politicians in congress to make laws and save immigrants. Especially when the marching is not against the opposition but their own side. What has this actually accomplished? Has it done anything which has saved the Dreamers?

    The Dems elected aren't Republicans, either. There is a huge gap between a centrist/liberal and a neoconservative/ Trumpite politician. Even Blue Dogs are better at helping the left achieve its goal than a Republican. The far left can't do it alone, and they certainly won't be able to help the Dreamers without the Dems in congress.

    And you've yet to explain how your proposal is supposed to help the Dreamers.

    edit: I'm also trying to frame it with the Dreamers issue rather than a general subject which would be off-topic, what have the far left been doing to help the Dreamers besides protest and yell at the Dems?

    Harry Dresden on
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    So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Geth, close the thread.

    We're taking a break.

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    GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative So It Goes. Closing thread...

This discussion has been closed.