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[Spider-Man Homecoming] BRING ME open spoilers OF SPIDER-MAN!
Local H Jay
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Sony finally gave up and made us a good movie
And by Sony I mean Marvel, Marvel made us a good movie
You can thank North Korea
Synopsis:
That's right, this movie has Iron Man! And Batman! And Birdman! AND Beetlejuice! Also Aunt Not-Gray and some dude named "Happy"
Sony Human Amy Pascal on the demon pact that birthed this unholy union:
So this movie shouldn't exist, and it does! Cool! But is it good.
Early reviews say, yes. Hella yes.
Past-Due Potatoes has a Certainly Starchy 91% right now after the premiere.
Wow! Must be good right? Well if you see it, tell us! IN MARKED SPOILERS OR I WILL BE PARKED OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE HONKING IN A JEEP MENACINGLY
And by Sony I mean Marvel, Marvel made us a good movie
You can thank North Korea
Synopsis:
A young Peter Parker/Spider-Man (Tom Holland), who made his sensational debut in Captain America: Civil War, begins to navigate his newfound identity as the web-slinging super hero in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Thrilled by his experience with the Avengers, Peter returns home, where he lives with his Aunt May (Marisa Tomei), under the watchful eye of his new mentor Tony Stark (Robert Downey, Jr.). Peter tries to fall back into his normal daily routine--distracted by thoughts of proving himself to be more than just your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man--but when the Vulture (Michael Keaton) emerges as a new villain, everything that Peter holds most important will be threatened.
That's right, this movie has Iron Man! And Batman! And Birdman! AND Beetlejuice! Also Aunt Not-Gray and some dude named "Happy"
Sony Human Amy Pascal on the demon pact that birthed this unholy union:
Because he was always the only superhero. And there’s only so many times that you can tell the story of, “I really want everyone to love me and if I tell them I’m Spider-Man, they’ll love me, but I can’t tell them!” We’ve told that story as many ways as I could figure out, and Kevin [Feige] and I had been working together since the very first movie, because he used to get coffee for [producer] Avi [Arad], if you can believe it. He was very good at getting coffee, though. He’s an even better producer, but he’s also good at coffee. So it felt like we needed to do something else and this felt like the right thing to do. And Kevin and I had been talking for a very long time about that, and here’s the thing that I wanted, I emphasize for all of you, because I think this is really important and I don’t think it will ever happen again in the history of the movie business: You have three studios that came together to have this movie being made. No studio likes to share anything with anyone, let alone three studios. And truthfully—there is nothing cynical I can find in this statement—everybody did it because they wanted Spider-Man to be great. Truly, it was because Spider-Man is great, the character is great and people love him. That’s good for Disney. That’s good for Marvel. And that is certainly good for Sony. So, the fact that all these companies were willing to work together to make that happen—believing that everybody needed each other in order to have that happen. I think that’s pretty miraculous.
So this movie shouldn't exist, and it does! Cool! But is it good.
Early reviews say, yes. Hella yes.
Past-Due Potatoes has a Certainly Starchy 91% right now after the premiere.
Wow! Must be good right? Well if you see it, tell us! IN MARKED SPOILERS OR I WILL BE PARKED OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE HONKING IN A JEEP MENACINGLY
Local H Jay on
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Critics Consensus: Spider-Man: Homecoming does whatever a second reboot can, delivering a colorful, fun adventure that fits snugly in the sprawling MCU without getting bogged down in franchise-building.
Very excited from what I'm reading
Thank fucking god. It's pointless
I mean its even more pointless considering Spiderman already kind of had his origin story laid out in Civil War.
I didn't expect or want this movie to be an origin story. I want it to be about how Parker is challenged and grows more powerful and gets closer to the Spiderman that can take on real bad guys.
He also says Homecoming 2 will feature
Fox is kicking out some serious jams, Marvel studios keeps on cranking out good shit, but Sony... I can't help but feel that this movies going to do very well, Sony's going to poison this deal, then fuck everything up.
Marvel knows how to hype it's shit up properly. They got people drooling for Thor 3... and considering the general response from Thor 2, that's saying something.
Now I haven't minded the Spidey advertising. It's pretty eh, but I've seen worse. But just compared to the other MCU movies I haven't felt nearly the same level of hype.
Basically, Sony is poison and makes a lot of stupid decisions on the movie IPs.
Still hyped as fuck for this.
With regards to the Venom and Black Cat/Silver Sable movies, maybe we can just pretend they're not part of the MCU, much like how the Catwoman and Green Lantern aren't part of the Nolan universe.
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
YouTube reviews! Light spoilers in, nothing surprising.
Is this because you don't like the spin-offs in general or that they're likely to be abnd because Sony's screwed the pooch on their movies? I disagree with the former, and agree with the latter. That said, I did like ASM.
edit: Disney should definitely buy Sony.
I don't like the idea of these two Sony spin-offs because I feel like they're being made as backup plans. That if they become successful enough, Sony will pull out of their partnership with Marvel as they can just piece together their own Homecoming cinematic universe afterwards using the Venom, Black Cat and Silver Sable characters.
I'll also note that I'm probably one of the few people who want to see these characters interact with Spidey in a movie. But I don't trust Sony to do it.
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
It's important to me.
Nintendo Network ID - Brainiac_8
PSN - Brainiac_8
Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/BRAINIAC8/
Add me!
Then again that was the ASM franchise in a nutshell.
Nintendo Network ID - Brainiac_8
PSN - Brainiac_8
Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/BRAINIAC8/
Add me!
Without going in to spoilers, a lot of the set up with Spidey and Iron Man is Spiderman's desire to be part of the Avengers and do great things (the great power) but his inexperience and naive youthfulness causing Iron Man to come and lecture him (the great responsibility). Surrogate father/son themes then come in to play (this is all basically in the trailer, and you see a lot of it in the intro recently posted to the MCU thread).
They don't quote it directly, but I think it works better and ends up being more subtle. They show the lesson a lot more than say, the 2002 Spiderman film, in which the line is directly quoted and then the film kind of moves on and ignores it. Here it's a central philosophy, even if it's never spoken out loud.
Nowadays I prefer ASM over Spider-man. That movie has aged terribly. It wasn't until years later I realized how badly written Goblin's motivations are.
Marc Webb's ASM was the first time that Peter came across as a genuine human being, rather than a placeholder for wacky stunts. And now that I've finally gotten around to watching "Wonder Woman" and reading a lot of the commentary and reviews, it's made me appreciate a lot of his aims even more.
1. It's not afraid of emotion
A lot of critics complained that Peter was angsty and irrational. But that's also true for a lot of teenagers his age. I think for a long time, comic book movies have been scared of expressing genuine emotion, because genuine emotion is a vulnerable position, and puts you at the risk of seeming "cheesy." The MCU gets around this by turning everything into a joke, where the heroes are constantly making wisecracks to undercut the tension. Where as the DCU goes the opposite direction by making everything super dark.
While Spider-Man is used as example of emotion does right, Raimi's movies handle emotions like a checklist. "Oh, did we cover the part where Peter is sad about Uncle Ben dying? We are? Then let's move to the next scene." Where as Webb handles emotions as an ongoing process.
ASM was a movie that wasn't afraid to wear it's heart on it's sleeve. Garfield is willing to approach Gwen Stacy, even when he knows that he's going to be super awkward. Where as McGuire's version of Peter has been madly in love with his neighbor for over a decade and is too scared to even talk to her (Which, in hindsight, is very stalkerish and not cool). He only finds the courage to approach her as Spider-Man, when he can try to impress her with the ability to do impossible things.
In short, Garfield's version allows himself to be vulnerable when he doesn't have to. He sticks up to Flash Thompson even when he knows that it'll result in a beatdown. Which is a contrast from the typical MCU hero, who all seem to be cocky and arrogant and wisecracking from the start.
There's also a contrast in terms of soundtrack. Elfman's score is basically a rehash of Batman and Darkman, even though those are entirely different characters. It sounds like a self-parody because he's afraid of doing something new. Horner's tracks are also similar to his own previous work, but they're refreshing for the genre and hugely uplifting.
2. It's a movie that doesn't glorify combat and violence
I was watching a breakdown of Steven Universe the other day, which argued that Steven universe was basically a subversion of the typical male fantasy, where boys prove their manhood via combat. The Peter vs. Flash scene from the original Spider-Man is used as an example. But it's also a recurring theme throughout the movie. And we as an audience are supposed to cheer him on.
OTOH, when Garfield gets his powers, he's basically depicted as a total asshole. Lots of critics hated this, but Peter acting like an asshole is the entire point of the character. You can't have a message of "with great power comes great responsibility" unless you actually show the character acting irresponsibly. Captain Stacy basically calls him out on the fact that he's not actually helping. Even the final villain is a bittersweet victory rather than a cause for celebration, because Connors himself is a victim of his own serum.
And then you have Aunt May, watching the toll that Peter's antics are taking on him and being left in the dark on where those injuries are coming from. It adds a level of realism and humanity that you don't really see in other heroes.
3. The Idea of Redemption
In Raimi's Spider-Man, Flash Thompson is simply another villain to be defeated through brute force. Webb's version is a lot more complex. Another misguided youth, but still capable of basic humanity. When Uncle Ben dies, he tries to reach out to Peter. And eventually they learn to put their differences aside because life is too important to waste on petty squabbles. After the Lizard is defeated (non-lethally), Curt Connors does his best to try to protect Peter from the mysterious figure pulling the strings.
4. Much Stronger Female Characters
Seriously, there's no comparison. Gwen Stacy is treated as Peter's equal in every way except for super powers, rather than simply a prize to be won. Aunt May is a real person, rather than comic relief. It still doesn't pass the Bechdel test, but it's a vast improvement.
In regards to the Homecoming movie, I'm not very optimistic in regards to points 1-3. Watching Spider-Man take down regular street criminals no longer interests me. It's possible that Marissa Tomei will outshine Sally Field, but I don't expect Liz Allen to outshine Gwen Stacy.
I do give Homecoming props for having an Asian character in a major role.
Not to mention the whole "We're finally talking about Peter's parents!!!!(no we aren't but it makes for good trailer fodder hehehe)". It's seriously like they had a draft where they actually tied in his parent's story, but cut out all the good parts and just left one scene in to tease us of what's to come (hint it was another reboot lol).
There's a whole lot of stupid in both the Raimi series and the Webb reboot, but I walked out of the first Amazing Spider-Man after the first dumb jumpscare. I can still go back to the first two films and enjoy them, but Spider-Man 3 is where you can tell Sony started sticking too many fingers in the stew. We gotta have Venom in SM3? Everyone hated it. Tried to force Raimi into SM4, but upon reading the screenplay he bailed. Then they reworked that same screenplay (!!!) and made it ASM which was more like a really long Sony Vaio commerical with some action scenes in between, and ASM2 had the SM3 problem of "too many villians, and none of them got properly developed".
Like, Harry shows up after being gone for 8 years but immediately slides into the "best buds 4 lyfe" role. And even though I hated how it culminated, at least Raimi gave Harry three films of character development before making him a bad guy. Bleh.
Oscorp needs to be completely ignored for MCU Spidey, it's been done to death and it's not compelling. It's saying something that the best two villians in the whole franchise so far were Doc Ock and Sandman, two characters we actually get decent backstory and motivations. It also shows you can deviate from the source and fans won't lose their shit as long as you do it right.
Also still salty about the Rhino tease in ASM2 trailer what a fucking joke
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Why not?
To me, a "nerd" only needs two things: 1) academic interests and 2) social awkwardness. And even then, #2 has exceptions.
"Must enjoy the exact same music that i enjoy and wear the exact same clothes that i wear" isn't on my list of requirements. Bill Gates can wear skinny jeans and listen to Coldplay, but he would still be a nerd.
Garfield's version was also never "cool", because "coolness" is a matter of confidence, which his character didn't have until after getting powers. But even if he was, so what? This isn't the 1960s anymore, where a couple high school drop out could but a house with a factory job and studying was considered optional. We live in an was where nerds are now the mainstream. Technically, this was true even for the original Spider-Man, but Raimi chose to live in the past.
It was supposed to be a mystery because that was part of Peter's frustration.
It's also why Peter never catches the guy who killed Uncle Ben in this version. Life isn't always neat and tidy.
So if the main character doesn't really change from Peter to Spider-Man they kinda missed a huge point. He overcomes a lot of what gives him doubt with the powers, but they create as many problems as they solve. They completely botched the Uncle Ben moment in that way, Peter never has a character moment to reflect on what has happened. He just went from "Total Loser->Super Strong McAwesomeguy->Sad but Determined McAwesomeguy" but we didn't get any of that in ASM. I don't know why they bothered showing Uncle Ben just to completely gloss over it. Same with the family thing, which was never really an interesting angle to explore anyways. Peter is an interesting characters with a lot of cool stories to tell. We don't need the same rehashes of the same concept anymore. Tom Holland's Peter at least looks like they're finally taking the smart side of Peter seriously. I find it way more believable Peter likes making Legos and attends a special school for Science-y types, than rebel Abercrombie and Fitch model loose in the school on a skateboard.
Here is the original Peter Parker from the 1960s. This is literally our first ever introduction to who Peter is.
Far from bullying Peter Parker, they actually consider inviting him to the dance. The biggest "abuse" Peter has to suffer is that the other kids won't go to the science exhibit with him. Seriously: Boohoo.
The big problem with critics is that they grew up reading the character as small children, so they remember the character the same way they remember their own childhood. And a lot of the time, that memory is incredibly unreliable, because they gloss over Peter's flaws and vilify the other students. It's basically like the high school reunion episode of "30 Rock," where Liz Lemon remembers herself as the victim who all the kids would pick on. But then she quickly realizes that the other kids saw her as the bully who looked down on them.
The "Ultimate" version and the Raimi version are heavily influenced by 80's pop culture. So they ended up being influenced by films such as "Revenge of the Nerds" or "Back to the Future," where Flash Thompson is just a re-skinned Biff Tannon. When people complain "Garfield doesn't act like Peter Parker," what they really mean is "Garfield doesn't act like George McFly" But that was never the original intent of the character, nor is it particularly relevant today.
Yes, bullying today is a real thing. But it's not going to be directed at the tall straight attractive white male simply because he's smart and wears glasses.
All three of those things are still true in the movie.
Earlier you were complaining that Peter Parker isn't George McFly. Now you're basically complaining that Peter isn't Doc Brown or Tony Stark, inventing things just for the fun of it (as opposed to inventing out of necessity). A skate board is a cheap, efficient, and compact way of getting around if you don't like to walk. What exactly does hovering capabilities add to this -- other than a greater likelihood of losing balance and falling down?
Peter Parker isn't supposed to be a depiction of you. I'm sure that as a nerdy high school, you also weren't inventing web shooters and anti-magnetic inverters. In fact, I'm guessing you're far more likely to find nerdy high schoolers who skate board vs. nerdy high schoolers who invent web shooters.
And the extent of his skateboarding pre-Spider bite was "skates 2 feet in the hallway before the principle tells him to put it away." That doesn't tell me that Peter is highly coordinated. It tells me that Peter Parker is physically lazy.
#1 and #3 were far better handled in the Webb version.
You're right that the reboot didn't really cover his poverty, but that's because it would have bogged down the script. Meanwhile, the comics have moved in the opposite direction, turning Peter into a billionaire.
The actual books show otherwise. Literally the very second page in Spider-Man canon is Peter asking a girl out on a date. Peter isn't the same person as George McFly.
This was also true in the Webb version, to a far better extent. George Stacy is presented as having a perfectly valid point in criticizing Spider-Man's actions, rather than comic relief. Where as the Raimi version has the general public go from loving Spider-Man to hating him for no apparent reason -- simply for the convenience of the plot.
You mean like this?
I think you were the one who missed the point. The spider-bite gives Peter power, but that in itself doesn't change who Peter is. He might be more confident and arrogant, but he's still the same hormonal immature kid. Peter's change has to come from within -- and that's not something that happens overnight. Here's issue #1 of ASM once again, immediately after Peter reflects on Uncle Ben's death:
In the comic, his immediate response to Uncle Ben's death is "Hey... maybe I can turn to a life of crime?" And the main reason he decides not to is fear of getting arrested. He then follows up with, "Hey, maybe I can return to being a big shot performer?" Later on in the book, he tries to join up with the FF to become a superhero -- but only because he assumes it's a paid position. (See also: The fact that he goes out of his way to snub his classmates).
In the real world, change takes time.
Ironically, telling children that they should try to wrestle an armed criminal over money when you have no prior experience is ridiculously irresponsible. What happens if the gun misfires in the struggle and someone gets killed? Most businesses specifically train their employees not to interfere during a robbery for this reason. The money isn't worth the risk. Other versions get around this by keeping the gun hidden.
OTOH, Webb does show but not tell. Peter's irresponsibility goes beyond his unwillingness to stop a robber. It also applies to his treatment towards Flash, and role in helping Curt Connors create the Lizard formula. Rather than being a one time event that happened on instinct, these are patterned behaviors that required premeditation Webb understands that "with great responsibility" goes much deeper than simply beating up criminals (Something that most people cannot do and should not do). It also applies to how we treat our peers, and our career choices. Science itself carries a great power, and that power contains responsibilities.
Raimi's version of Uncle Ben criticizes Peter for beating up Flash, but we as an audience are never led to believe that Peter was acting in the wrong. Likewise, the movie never never really questions whether or not Peter's vigilantism is a good thing. That's very different from the basketball scene in ASM, where Peter is presented as a bully, and the two of them eventually become friends by the end of the movie.
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
ASM's Peter had more in common with Ultimate Peter, then they added their own things because time has moved on and nerds aren't identical to what they did in the 60's. Peter was a dork in the film he was just the kind of dork in this era. I don't see the disconnect why you thought he a s a completely different character - he retained all the characterization Peter/Spider-man has. Though this begs the question - which Peter Parker are you comparing him to? Peter in the 60's is different from the 90's, which is different from the 2000's etc.
Comic Pete has changed a lot over the year,s sometimes backward and some times forward with his development, then there's the added caveat of what do you think needed to be changed for the reboots since every adaption must reinvent the wheel to be relevant unless they're making a retro 60's Spider-man movie.
I also think you're underestimating how much of loner Pete was. He's like Batman, he has a reputation for being a loner yet he's the most popular person everyone wants (this is why Peter Parker has always been a chick magnet since the 60's). Betty Brant, Gloria, MJ, Mary-Jane, Gwen Stacy etc. This continued on when he was an adult, and became even more popular with people - including Flash Thompson.
Raimi want wayyyyyy overboord with this in his movies, Pete was never that isolated or a loser to that degree, or at least not for a long, long time. Those movies wanted Pete to be unbearably unpopular, so much so you question what exactly does MJ (or anyone else) see in him? Plus, they erased his humor.
I wouldn't call this a concise description of the character.
Sure, he has some of those qualities but he's not a human week who can barely function. And fear of women? I call bullshit on that. His problems with women wee more that he was unable to be reliable than being afraid of them. IIRC this was the guy who asked out an older women who was his boss's secretary while he was in high school - and succeeded!
Peter went through hell after Uncle Ben died in that continuity, that's why he asked laid out Flash IIRC. Nor did they gloss over Uncle Ben's death they just didn't make him act like Bruce Wayne. This slowly faded though his ill attempt to find the murderer and getting scolded by Captain Stacy. This was a more realistic depiction of how it would play out, rather than wrapping it up in a tight little bow like the comics did.
ASM's Peter was also the first on screen to show his true intelligence, another facet Ramie's lacked. He made his own gadgets, solved Connors' formula etc. They dialed this back in the MCU,
Is there a rule that Peter has to be average or ugly? I can see why he would see himself that way, but not how the world does. He's supposed to be the complete package that women can't get enough of - even when he's in high school. That's a big reason why Flash sees him a rival for Liz Allen, despite the fact she's dating him.
That's why I said they dialed it back in the MCU. That said, they've given themselves some leeway in the future by making him book smart enough down the line.
Just a few hours to go....
That being said, as a 27 year collector i have to wonder why soooooo many people want Peter back in high school.
I mean, i'm ok with it, but my ENTIRE life i've never known Spider Man to be a high schooler. He has only ever been an adult for me. Dealing with marriage responsibility, rent, bosses, job worries, schedules etc.
*Note: i never really collected the Ultimate version of the character, but do recognize that he is in high school in that.
The day time scenes in the homecoming trailer are going for this retro color style which I'll have to reserve judgement on, but the night time scenes just look really cheap. ASM was a movie where the color grading always looked perfect.
Although keep in mind that color grading in trailers is often different from the color grading in the actual film, because you might have completely different teams working on them.
There are 2. A mid and another at the end.
Steam: Feriluce
Battle.net: Feriluce#1995
A quick google search says there are two post credit stingers. Any early viewers care to confirm or deny?