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[Metal Gear Solid] Konami remembers it used to make games

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2023
    I personally like that every game since then has focused around a Metal Gear that is a shadow of, references, is a precursor, or is a parallel evolution of Rex.

    It's just that terrifying.

    Cept Platinum of course they have to go bigger. And grand it was.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Yeah, Metal Gears are just dumb as fuck and you just gotta be able to move past that to enjoy these games. Nothing about a rail gun launch would made an nuclear warhead "stealthed", you'd still pick that thing up on radar a million miles away and orbital mechanics means it could only fire certain detectable ways (and atmosphere would make long-range firing profiles WITHOUT orbital trajectories just... not work). And if it can't really fire ICBM-style warheads either then the range has to be limited, which means they'd have to be deployed into like... Canada or something if you wanted to hit the USA, because they don't swim. The machines themselves can't even spell the word "stealth"; they're fucking huge, noisy, and would probably be extremely easy to pick up on satellite imaging and thermals. Hell, they're so big you could probably find them with regular radar even with all the noise from ground clutter. How the fuck would you even sell this things to rogue nations? Plus the nuclear armament? People are going to notice things like a huge fucking box with a big robot leg in there going by cargo ship to North Korea.

    Nuclear submarines are vastly superior "stealth" arsenals of warheads. Yeah, bigger and more complex and more expensive but they can actually, y'know, fucking hide. Even regular mobile launchers do the same job just fine; they can't go as many places, but they can fire a nuclear missile with multiple warheads to basically any location on the planet from any reasonable location on the planet. They're also a much lower profile than a huge stompy robot and fuckloads less expensive. So there are much much better ways to nuke people by surprise and they've already been built.

    But submarines and mobile launcher don't go stomping and roaring around like big metal dinosaurs and this is Kojima we're talking about here. Pretty sure he'd break out in to hives if he had to write military fiction than didn't also have a bizarre streak a mile wide running through it.

    The specific dialog is the nuke is just fired like a bullet, there is no propellant used. It's not a missile. It acts more like a rod from God. This is also in the historical context of the "secret black ops history" of the year 2005.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    Also he did include a big sub in MGS 4 because it could hide.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    edited November 2023
    When you've reached cyborgs that can stop city-sized subs dead with their bare hands, Metal Gear is pretty redundant. Drop one cyborg into an enemy capital and wait for victory.

    AlphaRomero on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    If you are looking for narrative coherence and consistency, friggin Resident Evil would be a better spot.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2023
    When you've reached cyborgs that can stop city-sized subs dead with their bare hands, Metal Gear is pretty redundant. Drop one cyborg into an enemy capital and wait for victory.

    This did, indeed, happen, in Revengeance.

    Cyborgisation took over the world very quickly.

    Trouble is cyborgs are fighting cyborgs and now its equalised again.

    Reminder that Revengeance is the canon future from MGS4. This was covered.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    It is canon that the Emmerichs wanted to make Metal Gears because they are massive weeaboo nerds. Hal is a lifelong pacifist and still made one of the deadliest war machines in that era because he was just THAT much of a weeb.

    Kind of like Killmonger in that one What If episode.
    What? I like anime.

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    Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Replaying MGS1 with Lady Raven. I don't think I realized as a kid - the Foundry is for melting the metals used in constructing REX. That's so obvious now, but I used to think it was such a strange inclusion to have a lava pit in this setting.

    Looked it up and apparently in MGS4 the Foundry even connects to a previously unseen Casting Facility.

    Now I'm wondering if that's the most practical way to build something like REX. Do people tend to do casting for one-off prototypes?

    Oh brilliant
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2023
    How else are you gonna make metal parts?

    I don't think there's any other way but like, blacksmithing, which doesn't work for large pieces with very precise tolerances and complex shapes.

    BahamutZERO on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2023
    Not only had I never worked out what that furnace was for it never occured to me to ask the question. Huh.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Replaying MGS1 with Lady Raven. I don't think I realized as a kid - the Foundry is for melting the metals used in constructing REX. That's so obvious now, but I used to think it was such a strange inclusion to have a lava pit in this setting.

    Looked it up and apparently in MGS4 the Foundry even connects to a previously unseen Casting Facility.

    Now I'm wondering if that's the most practical way to build something like REX. Do people tend to do casting for one-off prototypes?

    If you want to keep your super-secret project really super-secret, yeah, I guess you could try by setting up a manufacturing facility to develop all the big pieces on-site. But for anything high-tech there is absolutely going to be some point where you have to ship parts in anyway, though that does allow for a hand-wave that they could just use, say, avionics and tank electronics which would mean that stuff was not built for a secret project. The military moving military supplies to a military base would not be weird, they could easily say it's a stockpile for the sake of security. Stuff like moving big ingots of refined metals for smelting and casting would be very weird for a military installation, so anybody looking close enough would pick that up right away even they did something silly like move the materials by submarine.

    For real-world nitty-gritty, the incredible cost in terms of resources and manpower to build a secret plant to manufacture parts from the actual ingots would make any level of real secrecy impossible. Building the facility underground (which would keep it off satellite) means insane costs and limits and anybody that looked would still go "that's a lot of dirt getting moved". Then the material for the facility has to come in, which would be a lot of shit with a lot of details and a lot of workers. Then there's the fact that the military doesn't have a program for smelting metal and casting/machining massive parts because that all gets offloaded onto civilian specialists, so that's a whole additional set of security vulnerabilities having them either on-site or training military personnel. And you'd have to have a major power plant that would stick out like a sore thumb. And an entire fabrication facility also staffed for finalizing parts and they would also be civilians/trained by civilians.

    At some point you're talking about probably several thousand workers to do everything required, plus an obscene amount of manufactured and raw materials that are really really weird for a military site to take in. You'd be waaaaaay better off having a bunch of different places making different parts thinking they're for something else and obfuscating the origins and purposes of the parts; then you just use the infrastructure already in place and nobody even knows enough to threaten the secrecy of the project.

    But for the purposes of the game, a casting foundry on-site makes way more sense than a guy who hip-fires the gun from an A10 Warthog or somebody being able to shoot down two F-16s (which would be sporting anti-air missiles with a reach well beyond visual range and move at a minimum of Mach 2.5) in a Hind D (which tops out at a glacial 200-something MPH and is big fatass of a helicopter, not to mention the armament is anti-tank missiles, unguided rockets, and a chin gun, none of which can reach more than a few kilometers). Also, the foundry looked pretty awesome after crawling around in dirt and snow for a while, so there's all the justification needed.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    He shot down the Hind D cos he's just that good man you just don't understand.

    He had the superior genes!

    I'll show myself out.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    what if they kept it secret because nanomachines the patriots la li lu le lo

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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    I'm just saying that the whole thing is on a relative scale. On a scale of 1 to 10 for logic, with 1 being the guns being based on real guns and 10 being everything factually insane and impossible thing in the game, a secret foundry is like... one and a half. It would almost be weirder if the game didn't have a bizarre area like that because that's just how Metal Gear games roll.

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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I honestly don't remember, who actually had the superior genes?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I honestly don't remember, who actually had the superior genes?

    Liquid, he'd been told Solid got the best. I think Solidus was just a perfect clone? Been a long time since I played MGS2.

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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    turns out it wasn't superior genes
    it was dominant and recessive alleles
    and liquid clearly had the recessive alleles because he was blond and blue-eyed
    kojima liquid was taught high school science class genetics wrong, on purpose, as a joke

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    In the end it's just a play on nature (Liquid) vs Nurture (Solid). With Nurture winning by a country mile.

    Just don't ask me what Solidus is supposed to represent.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    what part of liquid was the nature and what part of solid was the nurture

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    turns out it wasn't superior genes
    it was dominant and recessive alleles
    and liquid clearly had the recessive alleles because he was blond and blue-eyed
    kojima liquid was taught high school science class genetics wrong, on purpose, as a joke

    I honestly can't tell if I'm misremembering but I thought Liquid and Solid had blonde hair but Solid dyed his dark on missions for stealth purposes. This is from 1998 remember so I can't remember if that was as real as Akuma. Also Liquid's hair being different because he was raised in the desert and it was bleached.

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    Solid Snake is a brunette naturally. Just like Big Boss.

    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Well nature generally refers to biological and genetic predispositions inherited from birth. While nurture is about environmental exposure like education and culture.

    In terms of MGS and who is the ultimate soldier, it's "supposed" to be Liquid because he got the top genes. But it ends up being Solid who's the better soldier because of his upbringing and training. Of course there's the whole wrench of Liquid being told he's the inferior, so in a way he thinks he's living the nurture side.

    The concept isn't that hard to understand. But I won't pretend that Kojima's writing makes sense much.
    turns out it wasn't superior genes
    it was dominant and recessive alleles
    and liquid clearly had the recessive alleles because he was blond and blue-eyed
    kojima liquid was taught high school science class genetics wrong, on purpose, as a joke

    I honestly can't tell if I'm misremembering but I thought Liquid and Solid had blonde hair but Solid dyed his dark on missions for stealth purposes. This is from 1998 remember so I can't remember if that was as real as Akuma. Also Liquid's hair being different because he was raised in the desert and it was bleached.

    In the PS1 briefing intro, Snake has long blond hair and looks pretty much exactly like Liquid. Then the Gamecube version of the same scene has the same long hair but brown. And then there's Big boss. So...???

    I'm fairly sure he's supposed to be blond and he dyed it. At the very least, considering who their mother is, it's not impossible for them to have blond hair.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Liquid is notably the only boss in the series other than Fortune who Snake was unable to defeat.

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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    I had the original guide with the developer concept illustrations and Solid wasn't ever blonde, but Liquid very definitely was.

    And Liquid's hair being "sun-bleached" doesn't make sense to me because a) it only happens if you constantly stay in strong sunlight with no head protection (which would not happen if Liquid grew up in the Middle East, you wear head protection to keep the sun from burning the fuck out of your head and to provide some shade), b) Liquid is fair-skinned and not deeply tanned, and c) even if his hair had been sun-bleached at one point, he does military stuff all over the world and it would long ago have reverted to his natural color (within 3-6 months of leaving that kind of sun exposure, depending on how fast his hair grows).

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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Liquid is blond as a kid in V, he's just blond.

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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Curse that Solid Snake and his dominant genes!

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    JeixJeix Registered User regular
    /
    In the PS1 briefing intro, Snake has long blond hair and looks pretty much exactly like Liquid. Then the Gamecube version of the same scene has the same long hair but brown. And then there's Big boss. So...???

    Here's the timestamped part of the intro. I always thought he was blonde because of it.

    https://youtu.be/OsHph98EmyE?t=4m35s

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    Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
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    EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Remake is looking very decent:

    https://youtu.be/ruCk-3u9t7I?si=rCkPxeVLdCvPkFTn

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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    I think the biggest weirdness factor is the new graphics with the old kind of animations and controls. To be clear that’s what I want and what I imagine most fans want, but it definitely creates some oddness visually

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    The way they are so perfectly and expertly cutting around the gameplay animations and voice acting definitely feels weird. It doesn't even feel like the mentality of "If it ain't broke don't fix it". It feels like there's a corporate reason.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    There's definitely some stuff from MGSV mixed in.

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    DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    I will say that after getting so used to modern games having full performance capture, giving modern graphics to a game that doesn't have it results in kind of a weird contrast. And I still have concerns they won't rebalance the game for the player control improvements. But I'm still gonna buy and play the shit out of it, because I still really enjoyed Twin Snakes with it's completely broken difficulty. I'm just a whore for MGS like that.

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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    I'm not in games for the difficulty and never was, so Twin Snakes being easier because of all the additions never bothered me in the slightest. But I did enjoy the more varied ways to play that it offered, and the more messing around in the environments you could do.

    And the PAN card shortcut was a genuine boon.

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    DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    I don't really like super hard games, but I'm always looking for that sweet spot of just challenging enough to keep me engaged, but not so difficult I get frustrated.

    I might just be worried about nothing. And maybe it will be easy, and I can just "fix" it by bumping up the difficulty. Either way, I'm still getting this.

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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    edited June 12
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p-dbSJ2MK8

    Getting David Hayter front and center for this game was a good move, it gives me even more confidence that this is gonna be good.

    Great video, lovely interview with producer Noriaki Okamura in there too. (And, on a slightly different subject, the guy is very humble about the issues that Master Collection had, in a way that I don't think I've seen from a developer before.)

    Jazz on
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