The lack of interactivity in the quests are problematic. I mean, basically, if the game goes on long enough, the quest will always go off. This limits how powerful they can be, and the trade-off is building your deck around getting them off.
I think there might be a place for quests that are more powered-down. Something like the Paladin quest, but easier to activate, rather than requiring Paladins to run an unplayable deck. The idea of having a 1-mana card that is played early for some payoff, like a big powerful minion, on turn 7 or 8 seems quite reasonable to me: give up early card advantage for a later-game tempo push. I think it's a fascinating take on tempo, even, distinct from Hearthstone's traditional unstoppable tempo steamroller.
Alternately, quests should be disruptable by your opponent. Like, instead of play X deathrattle minions, maybe it's have X deathrattles you control go off, so shit like polymorph and silence effects can shut them down. Then quests could be powered up, and players can have tools to tech against them if they're really that powerful.
we had incremental quests they were called undertaker and flamewaker and questing adventurer and
Ehh. Those have immediate payoff. Or can be held until they have immediate payoff when played, anyways.
But having something QA-like could be neat, I think. Like suspend in Magic. Except the tradeoff with suspend was that the card's natural casting cost was higher, and instead, the tradeoff here would be requiring you to perform a certain action that would slightly skew your deck.
Like, play 10 spells, get an 8/8 on the board. (Okay, that's kinda like Arcane Giant, but I guess that's my point, that something along these lines would work and not be game-breaking.) Or kill five minions with your face, deal 10 damage to your opponent and gain 10 armor.
Maybe hyper specific quests that rely on your opponent doing certain things?
Quest: Turn the the tide.
Kill 5 pirates. Get something thematic.
Granted, that's a pretty bad example. But some quests that need a bit of back and forth between you and your opponent would be neat. Maybe a quest to buff your opponent's minions, or to survive 30+ damage (you'd need to put that one on the right class, some would do it too easily).
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
wait weren't you saying it was unhealthy because it effectively made for there to be 3 classes instead of 9?
that doesn't sound like something I said, but something I may have said is that the mechanical focus of the 3 factions in Gadgetzan was an error
two of them are extremely linear (handbuff/jade) which makes the classes both not play very differently and can result in some classes feeling like they didn't really get any cards at all. in addition the experience of playing against those mechanics winds up being very similar - they're just putting out larger and larger mans over time. reno decks on the other hand wound up feeling fairly different from one another, with the pushed kazakus and reno being the only thing that makes play patterns feel similar against them
and of course the fourth cross-class gang of pirates was just too good
the main problem with the cross-class cards is that there was a very small number of them, and 3 of them were just fuckin' "discover a card that's not in your class" cards, which are problematic. but you can do more subtle and interesting things, like say maybe 4 of the classes can have access to a minion that pays significantly less in stat budget for something like Spellpower.
the real solution is to create mechanically complex and interesting cards like Dopplegangster that has different meanings for different classes due to the unique mechanics of those classes but considering i continually only refer to dopplegangster as an example i'm not holding my breath there
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
wait weren't you saying it was unhealthy because it effectively made for there to be 3 classes instead of 9?
that doesn't sound like something I said, but something I may have said is that the mechanical focus of the 3 factions in Gadgetzan was an error
two of them are extremely linear (handbuff/jade) which makes the classes both not play very differently and can result in some classes feeling like they didn't really get any cards at all. in addition the experience of playing against those mechanics winds up being very similar - they're just putting out larger and larger mans over time. reno decks on the other hand wound up feeling fairly different from one another, with the pushed kazakus and reno being the only thing that makes play patterns feel similar against them
and of course the fourth cross-class gang of pirates was just too good
the main problem with the cross-class cards is that there was a very small number of them, and 3 of them were just fuckin' "discover a card that's not in your class" cards, which are problematic. but you can do more subtle and interesting things, like say maybe 4 of the classes can have access to a minion that pays significantly less in stat budget for something like Spellpower.
the real solution is to create mechanically complex and interesting cards like Dopplegangster that has different meanings for different classes due to the unique mechanics of those classes but considering i continually only refer to dopplegangster as an example i'm not holding my breath there
Poor Force of Nature. Doppleganster pretty much invalidated it as a card.
uh no, having charge removed from it invalidated it as a card :rotate:
Sure, but doppleganster being basically the same card but working with evolve/hand buffs effectively made it a much better card at the same mana cost and neutral no less. And they printed living mana *shrug*
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
I think the biggest success of the tri-class cards were the "Discover a card from these three classes" cards.
Granted, only Kabal Courier actually really saw play? The others... were understatted. A 2 mana 1/1 is WAY too slow (similarly why Jeweled Scarab didn't see play), and a 5 mana 5/3 is simply not good enough. If it were a 3/5, maybe. But at 3 health, it dies to literally everything. 3 mana 2/2 is the perfect storm, because 1) it's played in classes/decks that typically play pretty slow anyway and 2) a 3 mana 2/2 is still an okay body. Like it's decent, right? It's not great, but it's a body. But stats aside, it was a cool idea at the very least. Like how cool is it getting a heal as a Warlock? Or potent burn/removal spells as a Priest?
Putting that aside though, it's definitely a cool mechanic which could be expanded on further in the future. I'd definitely like to see something outside of a parasitic package like Jades.
Edit: Also Handbuffs shouldn't have been so piecemeal. It only worked in Paladin because Paladin has stuff that buffs the entire hand, not just one minion.
Double Edit Showerthoughts Edition: Aggro Druid is a handbuff deck......
Dibby on
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
+2
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
I think the biggest success of the tri-class cards were the "Discover a card from these three classes" cards.
Granted, only Kabal Courier actually really saw play? The others... were understatted. A 2 mana 1/1 is WAY too slow (similarly why Jeweled Scarab didn't see play), and a 5 mana 5/3 is simply not good enough. If it were a 3/5, maybe. But at 3 health, it dies to literally everything. 3 mana 2/2 is the perfect storm, because 1) it's played in classes/decks that typically play pretty slow anyway and 2) a 3 mana 2/2 is still an okay body. Like it's decent, right? It's not great, but it's a body. But stats aside, it was a cool idea at the very least. Like how cool is it getting a heal as a Warlock? Or potent burn/removal spells as a Priest?
Putting that aside though, it's definitely a cool mechanic which could be expanded on further in the future. I'd definitely like to see something outside of a parasitic package like Jades.
Edit: Also Handbuffs shouldn't have been so piecemeal. It only worked in Paladin because Paladin has stuff that buffs the entire hand, not just one minion.
And also the only one that has all non-conditional buffing. Hunter's buff cards are like half Beasts only and Warrior just gets the Taunt one.
3cl1ps3 on
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
I think the biggest success of the tri-class cards were the "Discover a card from these three classes" cards.
Granted, only Kabal Courier actually really saw play? The others... were understatted. A 2 mana 1/1 is WAY too slow (similarly why Jeweled Scarab didn't see play), and a 5 mana 5/3 is simply not good enough. If it were a 3/5, maybe. But at 3 health, it dies to literally everything. 3 mana 2/2 is the perfect storm, because 1) it's played in classes/decks that typically play pretty slow anyway and 2) a 3 mana 2/2 is still an okay body. Like it's decent, right? It's not great, but it's a body. But stats aside, it was a cool idea at the very least. Like how cool is it getting a heal as a Warlock? Or potent burn/removal spells as a Priest?
Putting that aside though, it's definitely a cool mechanic which could be expanded on further in the future. I'd definitely like to see something outside of a parasitic package like Jades.
Edit: Also Handbuffs shouldn't have been so piecemeal. It only worked in Paladin because Paladin has stuff that buffs the entire hand, not just one minion.
And also the only one that has all non-conditional buffing. Hunter's buff cards are like half Beasts only and Warrior just gets the Taunt one.
Well, there was also the 4/3 for 4 that EoT +2/+2s, that was the only hand buff card that actually saw competitive play.
Edit: Grimy Gadgeteer, I think?
The Escape Goat on
+1
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
Fire Fly is another example in the Doppelgangster category.
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
I think the biggest success of the tri-class cards were the "Discover a card from these three classes" cards.
Granted, only Kabal Courier actually really saw play? The others... were understatted. A 2 mana 1/1 is WAY too slow (similarly why Jeweled Scarab didn't see play), and a 5 mana 5/3 is simply not good enough. If it were a 3/5, maybe. But at 3 health, it dies to literally everything. 3 mana 2/2 is the perfect storm, because 1) it's played in classes/decks that typically play pretty slow anyway and 2) a 3 mana 2/2 is still an okay body. Like it's decent, right? It's not great, but it's a body. But stats aside, it was a cool idea at the very least. Like how cool is it getting a heal as a Warlock? Or potent burn/removal spells as a Priest
Fwiw the 1/1 was extremely good in arena and the 5/3 was still pretty good even with its stats distribution.
The 2/2 isn't statted any better imo, it was just played in decks that don't care about stats on board and rather have a second (third, fourth,...) kazakus.
personally before we get more quests printed, i'd like to get more multi-class cards printed
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
I think the biggest success of the tri-class cards were the "Discover a card from these three classes" cards.
Granted, only Kabal Courier actually really saw play? The others... were understatted. A 2 mana 1/1 is WAY too slow (similarly why Jeweled Scarab didn't see play), and a 5 mana 5/3 is simply not good enough. If it were a 3/5, maybe. But at 3 health, it dies to literally everything. 3 mana 2/2 is the perfect storm, because 1) it's played in classes/decks that typically play pretty slow anyway and 2) a 3 mana 2/2 is still an okay body. Like it's decent, right? It's not great, but it's a body. But stats aside, it was a cool idea at the very least. Like how cool is it getting a heal as a Warlock? Or potent burn/removal spells as a Priest
Fwiw the 1/1 was extremely good in arena and the 5/3 was still pretty good even with its stats distribution.
The 2/2 isn't statted any better imo, it was just played in decks that don't care about stats on board and rather have a second (third, fourth,...) kazakus.
The difference between dying to a ping or 1/1 and not dying to a ping or 1/1 can be pretty huge.
The discover cards are really great in decks whose strategies are to go into fatigue such as control priest, paladin, or mage or in decks like quest warrior with stonehill for obvious reasons. Otherwise you'd rather just draw another card from your own deck. Why play a 1/1 for 2 discover a card vs 1/1 draw a card for 2?
Why play the 5/3 discover a card as a druid when you just want to draw more cards for the combo.
In constructed your deck should be strong enough that you'd rather see more of it over discovering a card. In arena, you are likely to discover better cards than are in your deck which makes it strong.
I've decided that instead of playing the actual classes for my play x card quests, I'm just going to play a priest with mind visions and stuff.
So far, I'm loving it. Deck is like mind visions, glimmer root, shifting shades, inquisitor, thought steal, etc.
"Kill you with your own stuff Priest" is the reason why my Priest class is level 60, despite having only one other class above 50.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I opened my one Un'Goro pack from championships thinking there was no way it'd be a legendary since my pity timer was only at 9 packs and waiting was silly. So I opened it and got a duplicate legendary.
Well played, random number generator. You win this round.
Why do I keep seeing ultra greedlord priest running around with the medivh package, dragon package, AND lyra package, with elise and glimmerroots. That can't possibly beat other decks can it?
Why do I keep seeing ultra greedlord priest running around with the medivh package, dragon package, AND lyra package, with elise and glimmerroots. That can't possibly beat other decks can it?
As long as it can survive until turn 6 (or five with coin), it can beat anything.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I seem to beat it with non-greedlord dragon priest. Simply because you only have so much mana a turn and shadow visions + elise is enough greed for anyone.
Like to run that much greed you have to give up all kinds of important stuff. It's like, great you have a full hand of 6-8 cost cards in your hand. I have 2 twilight drakes on board. What now priest?
furbat on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Greedlord decks are sort of a relic from a different time. They were great against fatigue control decks, which don't exist any longer.
+1
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Posts
if quests drew a card when you cast them some of them would probably just be auto-run in decks whether or not you were playing a quest deck
Purify costs 2 mana because they didn't like that it was being used as 1 mana: draw a card.
I think there might be a place for quests that are more powered-down. Something like the Paladin quest, but easier to activate, rather than requiring Paladins to run an unplayable deck. The idea of having a 1-mana card that is played early for some payoff, like a big powerful minion, on turn 7 or 8 seems quite reasonable to me: give up early card advantage for a later-game tempo push. I think it's a fascinating take on tempo, even, distinct from Hearthstone's traditional unstoppable tempo steamroller.
Alternately, quests should be disruptable by your opponent. Like, instead of play X deathrattle minions, maybe it's have X deathrattles you control go off, so shit like polymorph and silence effects can shut them down. Then quests could be powered up, and players can have tools to tech against them if they're really that powerful.
Ehh. Those have immediate payoff. Or can be held until they have immediate payoff when played, anyways.
But having something QA-like could be neat, I think. Like suspend in Magic. Except the tradeoff with suspend was that the card's natural casting cost was higher, and instead, the tradeoff here would be requiring you to perform a certain action that would slightly skew your deck.
Like, play 10 spells, get an 8/8 on the board. (Okay, that's kinda like Arcane Giant, but I guess that's my point, that something along these lines would work and not be game-breaking.) Or kill five minions with your face, deal 10 damage to your opponent and gain 10 armor.
Quest: Turn the the tide.
Kill 5 pirates. Get something thematic.
Granted, that's a pretty bad example. But some quests that need a bit of back and forth between you and your opponent would be neat. Maybe a quest to buff your opponent's minions, or to survive 30+ damage (you'd need to put that one on the right class, some would do it too easily).
that's a mechanic that's substantially healthier for the game and immediately abandoned
wait weren't you saying it was unhealthy because it effectively made for there to be 3 classes instead of 9?
Gonna go buy a lottery ticket now.
that doesn't sound like something I said, but something I may have said is that the mechanical focus of the 3 factions in Gadgetzan was an error
two of them are extremely linear (handbuff/jade) which makes the classes both not play very differently and can result in some classes feeling like they didn't really get any cards at all. in addition the experience of playing against those mechanics winds up being very similar - they're just putting out larger and larger mans over time. reno decks on the other hand wound up feeling fairly different from one another, with the pushed kazakus and reno being the only thing that makes play patterns feel similar against them
and of course the fourth cross-class gang of pirates was just too good
the main problem with the cross-class cards is that there was a very small number of them, and 3 of them were just fuckin' "discover a card that's not in your class" cards, which are problematic. but you can do more subtle and interesting things, like say maybe 4 of the classes can have access to a minion that pays significantly less in stat budget for something like Spellpower.
the real solution is to create mechanically complex and interesting cards like Dopplegangster that has different meanings for different classes due to the unique mechanics of those classes but considering i continually only refer to dopplegangster as an example i'm not holding my breath there
Poor Force of Nature. Doppleganster pretty much invalidated it as a card.
Sure, but doppleganster being basically the same card but working with evolve/hand buffs effectively made it a much better card at the same mana cost and neutral no less. And they printed living mana *shrug*
I think the biggest success of the tri-class cards were the "Discover a card from these three classes" cards.
Granted, only Kabal Courier actually really saw play? The others... were understatted. A 2 mana 1/1 is WAY too slow (similarly why Jeweled Scarab didn't see play), and a 5 mana 5/3 is simply not good enough. If it were a 3/5, maybe. But at 3 health, it dies to literally everything. 3 mana 2/2 is the perfect storm, because 1) it's played in classes/decks that typically play pretty slow anyway and 2) a 3 mana 2/2 is still an okay body. Like it's decent, right? It's not great, but it's a body. But stats aside, it was a cool idea at the very least. Like how cool is it getting a heal as a Warlock? Or potent burn/removal spells as a Priest?
Putting that aside though, it's definitely a cool mechanic which could be expanded on further in the future. I'd definitely like to see something outside of a parasitic package like Jades.
Edit: Also Handbuffs shouldn't have been so piecemeal. It only worked in Paladin because Paladin has stuff that buffs the entire hand, not just one minion.
Double Edit Showerthoughts Edition: Aggro Druid is a handbuff deck......
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
coughconcedemagecough
And also the only one that has all non-conditional buffing. Hunter's buff cards are like half Beasts only and Warrior just gets the Taunt one.
Well, there was also the 4/3 for 4 that EoT +2/+2s, that was the only hand buff card that actually saw competitive play.
Edit: Grimy Gadgeteer, I think?
Pffft, why would I need a reno when I have seven healbots?
edit: Thanks dex!
Done. Thanks!
Fwiw the 1/1 was extremely good in arena and the 5/3 was still pretty good even with its stats distribution.
The 2/2 isn't statted any better imo, it was just played in decks that don't care about stats on board and rather have a second (third, fourth,...) kazakus.
Demons and magic burning it all down.
But no to play that is a quick way to lose.
The difference between dying to a ping or 1/1 and not dying to a ping or 1/1 can be pretty huge.
Why play the 5/3 discover a card as a druid when you just want to draw more cards for the combo.
In constructed your deck should be strong enough that you'd rather see more of it over discovering a card. In arena, you are likely to discover better cards than are in your deck which makes it strong.
So far, I'm loving it. Deck is like mind visions, glimmer root, shifting shades, inquisitor, thought steal, etc.
That "Beetleberries, my favorite!" guy gave me this...
I felt so, so bad for my opponent.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
"Kill you with your own stuff Priest" is the reason why my Priest class is level 60, despite having only one other class above 50.
Well played, random number generator. You win this round.
As long as it can survive until turn 6 (or five with coin), it can beat anything.
Like to run that much greed you have to give up all kinds of important stuff. It's like, great you have a full hand of 6-8 cost cards in your hand. I have 2 twilight drakes on board. What now priest?
rip four old god reno druid :c
Granted, this is hearthstone so gameplay past turn 5 isn't supported.